1. #6441
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    17,320
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    He didn't publish those works. Your point about his personal discussions don't matter to this fundamental point. Those things weren't published and they were not part of any rights that he gave to United Artists.
    I have never said they were published. His discussions to matter if he was using those works to support his world to fans and friends. Again he never saw a line between published and unpublished. It isn't clear at what point the "limited match rights" to Tolkien's other if ever brought to film was added to the deal. It doesn't matter if Tolkien did or did not finish something.

    It doesn't matter if the Appendices were meant to be a story or not. They are published works. According to your own argument that means he was fine with them being used in adaptations.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #6442
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Can you give a source for where you pull a few hundred thousand copies sold?
    He never has sources. His numbers are always what he pulls out of his ass.

  3. #6443
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    No, that's not what we're talking about here. There are plenty of opinions about the show in this thread I'm fine with, both good & bad.
    We're talking about calling out Chekhov's guns for a story we don't know yet. THAT'S pointless, and mean-spirited. And you "being clear" that you're doing it in the context of a couple of episodes does not change that. It's clear that your grudges with the character have nothing to do with the actual merits of the story; and your proposed changes to the story would only work for the worse.
    Couple episodes?

    We're 6 episodes in and nothing about my opinion has changed on this character and how the show rolled out the arcs.

    And not sure what you're complaining about since I don't have a grudge against the character at all. Just like I don't have a grudge over Tauriel or Radagast when I point out the same things about them not really being necessary to the plot. Anyone is free to disagree here.

    The merits of the story are ultimately subjective, wouldn't you agree? If people don't like a romantic subplot interjected in The Hobbit, then the story doesn't have merit to it to these people.

    I would make the same arguments in say cutting Jar Jar from Episode 1 to make the movie more concise, something which fans have done and has worked as a film edit. Not everyone has to agree with the edits, but I can still say that the plot of A Phantom Menace still works without Jar Jar in it. Whether Jar Jar himself and his scenes are worth any merit is up to individuals to decide.

    What you're deciding on as the merits of the story, and edits that make it worse, are merely your opinion. And I respect your opinion if you're merely expressing it as a means of disagreement. It doesn't mean the story can only be told one way though, and that is my point.

    There are plenty fan edits and directors cuts of movies that already exist that work to improve on the way these films/shows present their story. Whether you agree with them or not is merely opinion. I'm merely presenting my observations as if they were a film edit, and I'm not holding anyone to a standard to have to agree.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 03:18 PM.

  4. #6444
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The merits of the story are ultimately subjective, wouldn't you agree?
    Some are, others aren't.

    Whether something's a Chekhov's gun or not is not a matter of opinion; it either is, or isn't. And if something is or isn't a Chekhov's gun can only be know in the context of the whole story. Enlighten me then, please - what's the point of calling something a Chekhov's gun in the context of a small fragment of the story..? Because you did it atfer what, two episodes? Three? I CBA to look it up, but I'm not wrong. Well, now it's after 6 episodes (of a supposedly 5 season show, but whatever). So you are playing the "I told you so" card after all.

    Of course you have a grudge against the character.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    What you're deciding on as the merits of the story, and edits that make it worse, are merely your opinion. And I respect your opinion if you're merely expressing it as a means of disagreement.
    And now you're hiding behind "merely an opinion"? No, bad writing is bad writing, I thought that much was clear, especially in the thread about Rings of Power! Introducing main character by the way of flashbacks is bad writing, period.

    And you know what's funny? If they did introduce Arondir in season 2 using flashbacks, how do you think people would react...? Give it a good thought, you're a smart guy.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-10-05 at 03:24 PM.

  5. #6445
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Some are, others aren't.

    Whether something's a Chekhov's gun or not is not a matter of opinion; it either is, or isn't. And if something is or isn't a Chekhov's gun can only be know in the context of the whole story. Enlighten me then, please - what's the point of calling something a Chekhov's gun in the context of a small fragment of the story..? Because you did it atfer what, two episodes? Three? I CBA to look it out, but I'm not wrong. Well, now it's after 6 episodes (of a supposedly 5 season show, but whatever). So you are playing the "I told you so" card after all.
    I'm past the Chekhov's gun analogy, and I'll own up to misappropriating it as such. My argument is more that the watchtower itself is contrived more than a setup for a strong payoff. Having it been the location of the sword being used wasn't really something properly set up for the right payoff. I feel like they should have seeded that statue with the hilt in an earlier episode to better make use of it, but even then it wouldn't really change my thoughts on how this entire arc was handled. Having the watchtower be an important location felt forced to me, more than actually be intended for its use. In the end, the battle didn't even end up happening there.

    Of course you have a grudge against the character.
    What grudge do I hold against the character? Please elaborate since you seem to be an expert.

    And now you're hiding behind "merely an opinion"? No, bad writing is bad writing, I thought that much was clear, especially in the thread about Rings of Power! Introducing main character by the way of flashbacks is bad writing, period.
    "Bad writing" is heavily contextual, would you agree? I would argue that it's completely subjective.

    I think it's Bad writing because it omits key information that I expect to have to understand a proper setup and payoff. Proper foreshadowing, for example. That's just one example of a subjective take on "Bad writing".

    Subjectively, people can even call Tolkien's work Bad Writing if they're talking about the pacing and writing style. It wouldn't be wrong in that context.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 03:30 PM.

  6. #6446
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Well, was I wrong? No. I told you so then. If that's how you want to frame it then that's how I'll frame it for you.
    There's no other way do defend it, is there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    What grudge do I hold against the character? Please elaborate since you seem to be an expert.
    Thing is, I'd also like to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    "Bad writing" is heavily contextual, would you agree? I would argue that it's completely subjective.
    No, bad writing is not completely subjective (if it is, it makes literary studies one big hoax).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm past the Chekhov's gun analogy, and I'll own up to misappropriating it as such. My argument is more that the watchtower itself is contrived more than a setup for a strong payoff. Having it been the location of the sword being used wasn't really something properly set up for the right payoff. I feel like they should have seeded that statue with the hilt in an earlier episode to better make use of it, but even then it wouldn't really change my thoughts on how this entire arc was handled. Having the watchtower be an important location felt forced to me, more than actually be intended for its use. In the end, the battle didn't even end up happening there.
    Fair enough.

  7. #6447
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    There's no other way do defend it, is there.
    Then don't. You can't exactly defend against opinions either.

    Feel free to disagree and move on.

    Thing is, I'd also like to know.
    You are the one who said 'Of course you have a grudge' right?

    So tell me how you've come to this conclusion. How am I holding a grudge against this character? Because I'm pointing out observations of the story and how this character fits into it?

    No, bad writing is not completely subjective (if it is, it makes literary studies one big hoax).
    Yes but the context of my use of 'Bad writing' is subjective. It doesn't make my statement objective just because you think Literary studies is legitimate. That would be taking my comments out of context.

    Why wouldn't my arguments be subjective? Do you really think Rings of Power being badly written is objective fact because I said so?

    If you can regard the use of 'bad writing' as potentially being subjective, then I don't see how my use of the terminology is wrong. Especially if I'm using it in a way that's just easier than saying 'Flawed in way that is well below my personal standards and expectations of what Good writing should be'. If I somehow misled you into thinking otherwise then I apologize for the misunderstanding.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 04:01 PM.

  8. #6448
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You are the one who said 'Of course you have a grudge' right?
    So tell mehow you've come to this conclusion. How am I holding a grudge against this character? Because I'm pointing out observations of the story and how this character fits into it?
    Once again, calling a character a Chekhov's gun after two or three episodes is not merely an opinion, because something being or not being a Chekhov's gun is not a matter of opinion. Surely you must understand it, as you must understand that there is no point in making such accusation so early in the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes but the context of my use of 'Bad writing' is subjective. It doesn't make my statement objective just because you think Literary studies is legitimate. That would be taking my comments out of context.
    Why wouldn't my arguments be subjective? Do you really think Rings of Power being badly written is objective fact because I said so?
    If you can regard the use of 'bad writing' as potentially being subjective, then I don't see how my use of the terminology is wrong. Especially if I'm using it in a way that's just easier than saying 'Flawed in way that I find unpleasing to my particular tastes in writing'
    Your subjective argument that Arondir should be introduced in season 2 by the way of flashbacks is objectively bad in terms of principal rules of writing. I've already explained why.

  9. #6449
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Once again, calling a character a Chekhov's gun after two or three episodes is not merely an opinion, because something being or not being a Chekhov's gun is not a matter of opinion. Surely you must understand it, as you must understand that there is no point in making such accusation so early in the story.
    I never called this character 'Chekhov's gun' so I'm not sure where you're drawing this argument from.

    Your subjective argument that Arondir should be introduced in season 2 by the way of flashbacks is objectively bad in terms of principal rules of writing. I've already explained why.
    I didn't say he should. I said that's one possibility that could happen if their intention is to introduce this character as being important to the plot, while having a backstory that is integral to the Southlands. Otherwise flashbacks wouldn't even be needed, since they introduced Halbrand the exact same way without having any flashbacks to establish his character. He's just from the Southlands and has a grudge against Orcs and that's it. The story moves ahead from there with him now being potential 'King of the Southlands'.

    For example, imagine if they dedicated multiple episodes to establishing Halbrand's escape from Southlands before he's even out in the sea. Would this be necessary to understanding Halbrand's character? I would say that the exposition we have right now is more than enough to establish him and what we need to know about him. I think it would detrimental to dedicate scenes to flesh out Halbrand's backstory in the first 4 episodes, considering we already had too many POV's to follow.

    My argument for Arondir's omission is (IMO) based on his entire arc being an unnecessary supporting subplot for Galadriel's eventual return to Middle Earth. And I think he could be introduced in S2 in a more prominent position without having his presence in S1 be necessary to establishing his character. Based on what we've seen so far, I'm not all convinced that I needed to follow his journey to understand the meat and potatoes of Season 1, and I think it could have been cut completely because it's effectively filler. It was decent world building getting to see the tunnels or his interactions with Theo, but I don't think they're really necessary to the overall plot of the story so far. It might be building towards something more in the future, but I can't comment on that until we see how that rolls out. By and large, I think having him freshly introduced in S2 would serve the same purpose more or less, considering I personally find little merit in his romantic subplot or the prisoner scenes or him actually convincing Theo to be good.

    And flashbacks are not 'objectively bad in terms of principal writing', only your own subjective value for such. They literally have Galadriel flashbacks as a child in the first episode to establish her backstory in the first 10 minutes of the show, would you call this 'objectively bad in terms of principal rules of writing'? Would you call Gollum's Smeagol flashbacks at the beginning of The Two Towers to be objectively bad as well?

    Just say you disagree dude, it's not hard. Otherwise I'm debunking this entire argument as one big double standard.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 04:35 PM.

  10. #6450
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I never called this character 'Chekhov's gun' so I'm not sure where you're drawing this argument from.
    So you did force me to look it up and indeed, it was the Elven presence being a Chekhov's gun. But since you're past that, lets just let it rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There is no 'objectively bad in terms of principal writing', only your own subjective value for such.
    There is, and you can always say you disagree.

  11. #6451
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    There is, and you can always say you disagree.
    Before I disagree, are you saying all flashbacks are objectively bad?

    And you would say definitively that Rings of Power is objectively bad for having Galadriel flashbacks in the first 10 minutes of the first episode, as well as the Two Towers with the Smeagol flashbacks?

    If you are saying this, then yes I absolutely 100% disagree.

  12. #6452
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    Don't bother. He will argue that black is white even when he has already posted evidence to the contrary. He's spent years defending Star Citizen, that's all you need to know.
    You have been proven you were wrong simple as that, all the information backs me just because you cant admit you were completely wrong, just goes to show what lack of integrity you have. You have no evidence backing you, even the one single article doesnt back you up but several articles of information back my information up.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  13. #6453
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Before I disagree, are you saying all flashbacks are objectively bad?
    And you would say definitively that Rings of Power is objectively bad for having Galadriel flashbacks in the first 10 minutes of the first episode, as well as the Two Towers with the Smeagol flashbacks?
    If you are saying this, then yes I absolutely 100% disagree.
    I've already said it in a post you've ignored or omitted. I never said flashbacks are bad; flashbacks have plenty of uses. I've said that introducing a main character late into the story by the way of flashbacks is bad. It's on the previous page.

  14. #6454
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I've already said it in a post you've ignored or omitted. I never said flashbacks are bad; flashbacks have plenty of uses. I've said that introducing a main character late into the story by the way of flashbacks is bad. It's on the previous page.
    What does that even mean? There is no objective literary standard for defining such a thing.

    Can you give an example of any characters in fiction that were introduced this way that are considered objectively bad?



    And I'm not saying that he needs to be introduced through flashbacks, I said he could be introduced as a new character for Season 2, with his connections to the Southlands being revealed in flashbacks. For example, use the Prison scenes in the tunnels and first meeting Adar as a means of giving Arondir depth to his actions and motivations.

    Gollum had flashback scenes in the beginning of Return of the King through Smeagol flashbacks the same way to build on his character progression and backstory.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 05:04 PM.

  15. #6455
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    17,320
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There is no objective literary standard for defining such a thing.
    It is common advice for novice writers to avoid using flashbacks. A flashback should be used to offer context and development of existing things. A main character should already be introduced prior to a flashback. The flashback should be offering context about the "present day". While there is no governing body writing laws on the subject there are still standards of writing.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #6456
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is common advice for novice writers to avoid using flashbacks. A flashback should be used to offer context and development of existing things. A main character should already be introduced prior to a flashback. The flashback should be offering context about the "present day". While there is no governing body writing laws on the subject there are still standards of writing.
    Yeah totally agree. And I never intended to put that message across.

    To be honest I re-read my message and see where the misunderstanding lies.

    and introduce a more prominent Arondir character for S2 with some flashback scenes for context

    I should have put a comma after 'introduce a more prominent Arondir character for S2'. I'll own up to this misunderstanding as my bad.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 05:10 PM.

  17. #6457
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Again, if you do, I 100% disagree.
    That's fine, we've already established it's 100% ok to disagree (not that it required any establishing). And no, I won't be giving examples; I'm really not THAT invested in this thread, nor I wish to be. But shortly on topic of flashbacks, yes, in general, introducing main character late by the way of flashbacks IS, most of the time, a bad (or very bad) idea. It's a widely accepted consensus that flashbacks should be used only when absolutely necessary (and when it moves the plot forward - not only the flashback story, but also the "act of flashbacking", so to speak ). Therefore, it's rather difficult to build a detailed backstory of a main character by a way of flashbacks if you introduce him/her late. You can argue that Arondir doesn't need much of a backstory anyway, but that's conjecture. We don't know, and I personally enjoy his arc.

  18. #6458
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    That's fine, we've already established it's 100% ok to disagree (not that it required any establishing). And no, I won't be giving examples; I'm really not THAT invested in this thread, nor I wish to be. But shortly on topic of flashbacks, yes, in general, introducing main character late by the way of flashbacks IS, most of the time, a bad (or very bad) idea. It's a widely accepted consensus that flashbacks should be used only when absolutely necessary (and when it moves the plot forward - not only the flashback story, but also the "act of flashbacking", so to speak ). Therefore, it's rather difficult to build a detailed backstory of a main character by a way of flashbacks if you introduce him/her late. You can argue that Arondir doesn't need much of a backstory anyway, but that's conjecture. We don't know, and I personally enjoy his arc.
    I'll say I re-read my original statement and want to clarify that it should have read as such:

    and introduce a more prominent Arondir character for S2, with some flashback scenes for context

    If Arondir is meant to be an important character in the upcoming seasons, then my point is they could still introduce him starting at S2 while still having his current (S1) backstory in tact through means of flashback scenes dedicated to showing key ties to the Southlands and the Watchtower. Otherwise, mere exposition does the same job, as I've explained with Halbrand. I'm not invested in the example either, I just want to clarify my original message.

    For example it would be introducing a more dour and veteran Arondir character for S2 (who's been through some shit) who is now leading a group of Silvan Elves that's returned to the Southlands. And to build on his motivations and connections to the Southlands, in one of the later episodes we have a flashback sequence of him in the prison tunnels with Adar or watching his fellow Elves being slaughtered. That's it. I think that would suffice instead of having an entire season dedicated to his character, which IMO hasn't really developed all that much or added much to the show.

    He's a fun character, don't get me wrong, but I don't see him necessary to the plot. And the first 4 episode's pacing is so awkward and bloated that I would definitely stand by my opinion that I think certain story elements or entire POV arcs could be cut or condensed down with editing.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 05:24 PM.

  19. #6459
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'll say I re-read my original statement and want to clarify that it should have read as such:

    and introduce a more prominent Arondir character for S2, with some flashback scenes for context

    If Arondir is meant to be an important character in the upcoming seasons, then my point is they could still introduce him starting at S2 while still having his current backstory relevance in tact through means of flashback scenes dedicated to showing key ties to the Southlands and the Watchtower. Otherwise, mere exposition does the same job, as I've explained with Halbrand. I'm not invested in the example either, I just want to clarify my original message.
    One can always argue that since those flashbacks won't be necessary for s2, it will make for a better season :P And since they had to introduce the Southlands plot anyway, having Arondir there doesn't hurt. As you've said yourself, with or without him, it would be a similar story (so not much would change in terms of pacing), but at least for s2, he will be fleshed out and the flow of s2 won't have to be interrupted. Tadaaa!

  20. #6460
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    One can always argue that since those flashbacks won't be necessary for s2, it will make for a better season :P And since they had to introduce the Southlands plot anyway, having Arondir there doesn't hurt. As you've said yourself, with or without him, it would be a similar story (so not much would change in terms of pacing), but at least for s2, he will be fleshed out and the flow of s2 won't have to be interrupted. Tadaaa!
    The real question though is if nobody is watching S2 who is going to care about his increased role? The show appears to be getting worse ratings every episode and is likely hemorrhaging viewers. I don't they can pull off the absolute awfulness of rafe of time's "finale" but we will see.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •