Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[fakaroonie]

Trying so hard to like this. Every episode I get my hopes up... only to get crushed.

Writing feels worse than Shadowlands. Every patch you thought the lore would advance... but nope.

[Syegfryed]

For people waiting a big twist after the eruption, you are not getting one.

Its even more retarded than we could expect, not even here we can have consistency, the same cloud of fire, smoke and ash hit everything and everyone, the buildings? wrecked, torn asunder and catching fire, then you have Galadriel, 100% fine, you can think, hey, maybe everyone was fine, cause it was not that dangerous, regardless of the buildings being fucked, nope, there is some people smoked, there is a horse burning, it was rly selective.

I don't even think anyone important die, obviously, they try to build some drama/fear about uuuh maybe isuldur will die here, but is pointless cause you know he can't die, only people who didn't watch the first minutes of the first movies.

Yeah i can't finish this episode right now, but beware everyone, the totally not hobbits are back.

[Lorca]

Take out the "Lord of the Rings" logo of this series, and then you get a pretty bland and mediocre medieval-fantasy type of Netflix series, where the only thing standing out is basically the scenography.

[Orby]

Episode 7 review

Going to get the bad out of the way quickly because I didn't half mind this episode, but the suspension of disbelief can only get me so far, like are elves heat or magma resistant? Also why was no one coughing under tonnes of falling thick ash?

Also while there were casualties (sort of) I hate that they didn't go that extra bit far and kill off any of the main characters. I thought for certain the alchemist lady would have been killed off, at least add some shock to know that the volcano did something other than kill of a bunch of extras and pointless side characters we hardly knew. Make us care more. If she did die I would have upper the point of this show by one, knowing the creators had some balls. But alas, we do get some drama and some emotion but its very mute. Also didn't like the reveal of Mordor in the end, like couldn't they just say it? or if not, say nothing at all? Did they just want some fancy text up there? What would have been better is if they went tot he map and it just darkened with the name changing there.... also what's happened to the map transitions from the earlier episodes, I liked that?

Okay onto the good, so much drama in this episode. I kind of like it now there are actual stakes. It took 5 episodes of nothing to get to me actually caring about anything.

Galadriel is having her moments with me, she switches likable to dislikeable a lot, but she wasnt half bad in this episode. So thats an improvement I guess, I still find the directing of her acting a bit distracting, like she always has his tense face look to her, and its never dawned on me until now that it makes her look like she's either going to cry or scream.

The Elrond and Durin stuff, once again killing it. I loved the scenes between Durin and his father and the tension there.

The Queen going blind was kind of a shocking scene I do really like the way that was handled, I never cared at all about her until now, and she was really good trying to remain strong despite knowing what's happened to her. This is the closest we got to a casualty to a major character after the volcano explosion I guess.

Also Lloyd Owen who plays Elendil is too good for this show, his acting so so damn good. I actually got emotional in the scene when he tried to calm that horse down before setting it free... Like wow. the one scene in this show to finally make me care is between a man an a horse lol

Overall this episode was less on par with last weeks I think. Still lots of problems but I am at least slightly invested.

6/10

Past reviews.
Episode 1: 6/10
Episode 2: 7/10
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53897065
Episode 3: 4/10
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53904070
Episode 4: 6/10
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53910372
Episode 5: 5/10
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53916644
Episode 6: 7/10
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53923548

[bledgor]

ugh, the MC/important characters plot armor is so fucking real in this episode, that it is laughable. Couldn't even singe a few hairs on Galadriel's face as she took a pyroclastic flow the fucking face.

Just like I was told Miriel loses her sight, and Celeborn is mentioned for the first time in past tense, fucking lol. Like she is on this trail of vengence, and her husband is barely mentioned once in seven episodes? LOL

Love how Elendil couldn't lift the debris, how to get help from Miriel to life, Elendil the fucking tall.

Harfoots continue to be awful additions. Hated how they did Elrond this episode, both Durin's continue to hard carry what little interest I have in the show.

One more disappointment to go, at this point I am rooting for Halbrand/Sauron.

Oh also love how the Numenoreans set up such a nice/large camp while riding out to save the town somehow.

[Varodoc]

They really should have just given the ring to Galadriel, given her a quick eagle uber to Mordor, dropped her inside the volcano, and called it a day.

Very clearly the queen is strong enough to tank literal volcanic lava eruption, I'm stunned by her performance!

[InfiniteCharger]

The point is that combat exists purely in the realm of imagination, and is simply not applicable to real life logic or physics.

Trying to analyze the fight scenes is about as pointless as analyzing the combat effectiveness of a pro wrestling match. It misses the point of it literally being imaginary for the sake of entertainment.

Being in the realm of imagination does not mean that they are not based any kind of physics real or otherwise. For example, swords, shields and knives often are exactly modeled on real world physics, even if they take it beyond that by adding things like magical powers. Being taken seriously doesn't mean following real world physics, it means following whatever rules that are defined within that fictional world, again as seen in modern rules for D&D and MMO combat.

Pro wrestling is actually a very serious form of combat because those throws and slams are real, but what makes them fake is that they are choreographed in advance. And that "sport" of wrestling choreography is taken very seriously, because if you don't do those moves correctly somebody can actually get hurt.

None of that has anything to with why the combat in this show is lackluster, which has more to do with the decisions made for this particular show more than anything else. And the job of fantasy is to make you believe in it and for that to work you have to take it seriously.

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Right. I haven't stated that wasn't the case. It isn't clear when the "limited match rights" to his unpublished works were added to the deal. The first reference I can find to it is prior to Christopher publishing some of his fathers stuff. Rings of Power is created because the rights sold didn't cover a TV series. It isn't really a loophole. The appendices were published work which shows that your argument, in regards to this show, doesn't work.

I have never said that Amazon has rights to all his other works. The "limited match rights" was what the SZC had. I'm not sure how you confused the two. The only one making things up here is yourself. You keep responding to arguments that exist only in your head. If there is nothing else for you to say then just leave the conversation. I know what agree to disagree means. So follow your own words and stop. Why do I have to stop when I'm not the one that wants to leave the conversation?

You are repeating yourself again. This show was not the result of any rights given by Tolkien before he died. It does not represent any story he actually wrote and gave rights to covering the second age. He did not intend for the appendices by themselves to be the basis of the story of the 2nd age or anything prior to it. It was intended for the legendarium made up of other works that he had not completed to be the basis of the 2nd age and prior stories. Those works were published after he died and this series does not have the rights to them. It was the Tolkien estate who came up with the idea of creating a television series of more than 8 episodes based on the appendices in 2017, meaning decades after JRR Tolkien had died. So to argue that this convoluted way of assigning the rights to a studio around the story of the 2nd age is what Tolkien intended is blatantly false. That is not what he intended. What he intended was to finish fleshing out the story of the 2nd and prior ages in his legendarium and that those things would be treated as a single consistent continuity from beginning to end. Meaning not something that some studio could just insert their own made up story into that goes against everything else within that larger continuity.

Again, just agree to disagree. There is no point continuing.

We are repeating ourselves.

[Shadowferal]

Compare Aragorn fight with the Uruk hai

[Triceron]

None of that has anything to with why the combat in this show is lackluster, which has more to do with the decisions made for this particular show more than anything else. And the job of fantasy is to make you believe in it and for that to work you have to take it seriously.

Yes but all you're saying is you personally don't believe it, and I can totally understand that.

Suspension of disbelief and believability are 100% subjective, as there are people who will find Pro Wrestling to be enjoyable because they believe it, or they could also enjoy it knowing it's 100% unbelievable and just enjoy it for the ride for what it is. Not all Pro wrestling is the same, not all of it has the same standard of believability or seriousness, not everyone enjoys it the same way.



RoP's combat isn't very believable. Yet the characters in the show do take it seriously. And whether it's entertaining or not is 100% subjective, not defined by me or you or youtuber experts like Shadiversity.

[InfiniteCharger]

Again. This is non sequitur. You have no idea of what his intent was, or would have been.

Based on your argument, it's seems you are making the converse error. Just because publishing a work demonstrates a clear intent that it should be read or seen by the public, does not mean that the converse is true. This is because there are many possible reasons for which someone might choose not to publish something and unless you know those reasons, you cannot infer the intent.

That statement is not even an argument in defense of anything. You are just using it to avoid actually showing what is incorrect about that statement because you cant. If you actually are going to claim that the statement is factually invalid then show it. Otherwise the only one pushing non sequitirs is you, because I actually posted the entire letter that you quoted from showing clearly what the man intended.

Where did I say that I think it means he wanted "Amazon or anybody else to come along and completely contradict what he was doing and make up their own stories that go against what he actually spent his life writing"?

That's right. I didn't. So stop trying to put words in my mouth. It's dishonest.

So what is your point? Either you claim to know what the man wanted others to do with his story or you don't. Why are you arguing with me if you don't have anything to back it up? Whether you said it directly or not doesn't change the fact that it is implied that the existence of this show is justified based on what tolkien wrote in his letters, including the sentence that you explicitly quoted. By quoting that sentence you therefore established that these letters are a reflection of his intent and when shown the entire sentence in context, now you claim that you weren't directly arguing against his actual wishes. So why use his words then if you don't agree with them?

I don't see any contradictions. None at all. In fact I see pretty much nothing in his entire letter that even hints at what his attitude towards the idea of someone else creating a whole new story that fits into his universe using the medium of modern television might be...aside from that one line. Everything else basically speaks about the universe itself.

I disagree. You can say it does but I can read perfectly fine and it is clear to me that he spent his life specifically writing a story that was intended to be treated as real history that is so old it forms its own mythology. That means a single continuity of events, characters, themes and so forth that flow in a single timeline from beginning to end. And it is that singular continuity of story, characters and events that he wanted to be respected. If you don't see that then fine, but his words to not speak to a 'multiverse' or 'alternate timelines" or 'alternate imaginings' of these events, which is what you get when others make up stories contradicting what he actually wrote and that includes the PJ films to a lesser degree.

The thing about combat is that being realistic and looking good on screen are mutually exclusive. I did fencing for many years back in my youth. And it looks nothing like The Princess Bride or Game of Thrones. Hell even when actual fencing is shown on screen it looks completely off.

No it isn't. Making a sword fight look good requires a fight choreographer and actors or stuntmen who are physically able to execute the choreography correctly. Case in point most Hong Kong martial arts combat is pure fantasy, but the basis for that goes back to Chinese theater where they used acrobatics to perform the fight choreography. So obviously making that kind of fantasy combat look good on screen and be believable requires skill and talent. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, developing all the various characteristics of Elven combat in terms of how they wielded their swords and how they fought is something I would have liked to see in this series. But that would actually require taking the idea seriously and hiring a fight choreographer and/or martial artist to come up with those weapons and techniques and then train the actors how to do them, which often does happen by the way in the choreography of video game trailers and other types of fiction and fantasy productions.

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Yes but all you're saying is you personally don't believe it, and I can totally understand that.

Suspension of disbelief and believability are 100% subjective, as there are people who will find Pro Wrestling to be enjoyable because they believe it, or they could also enjoy it knowing it's 100% unbelievable and just enjoy it for the ride for what it is. Not all Pro wrestling is the same, not all of it has the same standard of believability or seriousness, not everyone enjoys it the same way.



RoP's combat isn't very believable. Yet the characters in the show do take it seriously. And whether it's entertaining or not is 100% subjective, not defined by me or you or youtuber experts like Shadiversity.

No what I am saying is the act of throwing somebody on the mat in wrestling is real, but it is choreographed and part of a training system all pro wrestlers go through.


It is fight choreography, which takes skill in terms of making it look "real" to the audience, which is no different than what you see in films. And that art of fight choreography is serious in the sense it takes skill and talent to pull off.

[Triceron]

No what I am saying is the act of throwing somebody on the mat in wrestling is real, but it is choreographed and part of a training system all pro wrestlers go through.


It is fight choreography, which takes skill in terms of making it look "real" to the audience, which is no different than what you see in films. And that art of fight choreography is serious in the sense it takes skill and talent to pull off.

So is Arondir getting thrown around by an Orc, or the Galadriel training fight scene, or Halbrand's fight scene in the alley. They are also choreographed fights

I'm not the one equating something fake or unbelievable to being bad. My point is suspension disbelief is subjective, and people's enjoyment of Pro Wrestling and film fights will vary depending on the individual'a threshold for bullshit.

If you post a MMA youtuber's breakdown of how Pro Wrestling is overdramatized or unrealistic, it doesn't get in the way of its entertainment value.

Whether the actual choreography is good or not can be discussed and that would be a different subject to using Shadiversity as some baseline standard for believability.

[DarkAmbient]

For me this was a tie with episode 3 for worst episode. Villagers dead from the eruption but of course the only one who died that we're supposed to care about was Isildur's friend whose name I can't even remember. I was hoping it was Bronwyn's botox-faced corpse under that sheet in the tent but sadly she lives to see another day.

The hobbits continue to be pointless. I had to laugh at the Harfoot's rousing speech about how they "stay true to each, no matter how the path winds or how steep it gets", the same group of hobbits whose culture is to abandon each other to die when they fall behind. Do the writers even talk to each other? lol... The falling leaf stirred the balrog but not all the mining noises? And that ending with the map changing its name was cringe as fuck, Adar should have spoken it.

Elvish medicine can heal terrible wounds but not Miriel's eyes apparently.

The Elrond/Durin scenes are great as usual. I like the white priestess who burned the caravans with magic, she's got potential. I wonder what the source of her magic is?

[Fortress of Arrogance]

For me this was a tie with episode 3 for worst episode. Villagers dead from the eruption but of course the only one who died that we're supposed to care about was Isildur's friend whose name I can't even remember. I was hoping it was Bronwyn's botox-faced corpse under that sheet in the tent but sadly she lives to see another day.

The hobbits continue to be pointless. I had to laugh at the Harfoot's rousing speech about how they "stay true to each, no matter how the path winds or how steep it gets", the same group of hobbits whose culture is to abandon each other to die when they fall behind. Do the writers even talk to each other? lol... The falling leaf stirred the balrog but not all the mining noises? And that ending with the map changing its name was cringe as fuck, Adar should have spoken it.

Elvish medicine can heal terrible wounds but not Miriel's eyes apparently.

The Elrond/Durin scenes are great as usual. I like the white priestess who burned the caravans with magic, she's got potential. I wonder what the source of her magic is?

So Inkwell doesn't die in ep.7 ?
Such a pity.

[rhorle]

This show was not the result of any rights given by Tolkien before he died.

Tell me where I said it was? If you are going to repeat the same lie over and over at least have the decency to point it out. You keep saying published works determined what Tolkien would be fine with adapting or not. Appendices were published and they are being adapted even if it is to create a new story. This is one point where your argument falls apart. You don't know what he intended for his Mythos and published works to do. He has expressed that he would be fine with "new" stories. We have record of one adaptation that made significant changes to Lord of the Rings yet Tolkien didn't want to kill the project because despite those changes he still liked the imagery enough.

So the basis of the 2nd age is unpublished work that we can't use as the basis for anything because it was unpublished? According to your own argument if Tolkien wanted those things to be used he would have published them. Since he did not we can't use them as inspiration for anything since they were not supposed to be given to the public. Another point where you argument falls apart by your own doing.

I'm not saying Rings of Power is what Tolkien intended with "limited matching rights". Don't be daft and fall into the lies you've created. Limited Matching Rights means that a company can match any offers to have "first dibs". It is unclear when that was added to the deal but at the latest it was shortly after the death of JRR as it existed prior to the Silmarillion being published in 1977.

If he was fine with his published work being adapted then he would be fine with "unfinished 2nd age" stuff being adapted. The same principles apply. His work would be changed to fit the adaptation. He did not require strict creative control to him, or his estate, as part of the rights did he? Even when alive he merely consulted and offered his opinion with out stopping projects. It is clear the only one that is placing restrictions on his work is yourself.

If there is no point in continuing why are you continuing? You keep trying to get people to stop while being unable to do so yourself.

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I'm going to guess that the husband of Galadriel was "captured" or something and isn't truly dead. It would be a great way to have Galadriel "tempted" with darkness to rescue him. The trivia for the episode specifically calls out "but his exact fate remains unknown". It depends what "true to Tolkien" means I guess. As Jennifer Salke (Head of Amazon Studios) has said, "the estate was very open and encouraging for reinvention, but always in ways that stay true to Tolkien."

For lacking action or a stand out epic moment the episode wasn't that bad. Still not sure how the season finale will be since Mt.Doom erupting was such a stand out for me. It would have been great to have the sword/eruption interlaced with rings being created. I hope they at least explain the cult and meteor man a little so we won't have to wait until 2024 or later for more context.

[DarkAmbient]

I'm going to guess that the husband of Galadriel was "captured" or something and isn't truly dead. It would be a great way to have Galadriel "tempted" with darkness to rescue him. The trivia for the episode specifically calls out "but his exact fate remains unknown". It depends what "true to Tolkien" means I guess. As Jennifer Salke (Head of Amazon Studios) has said, "the estate was very open and encouraging for reinvention, but always in ways that stay true to Tolkien."

For lacking action or a stand out epic moment the episode wasn't that bad. Still not sure how the season finale will be since Mt.Doom erupting was such a stand out for me. It would have been great to have the sword/eruption interlaced with rings being created. I hope they at least explain the cult and meteor man a little so we won't have to wait until 2024 or later for more context.

Yeah, there's no way Celeborn is dead. They've taken liberties but just having him die already would be lame and rob the show of some potential drama. Not to mention that without Celeborn there's no Arwen.

I also wonder about the finale. Maybe instead of a big epic moment it'll be more of a 'moving all the pieces into place' episode to set up the next season. I'll be pissed off if Meteor Man's identity remains a secret.

[Triceron]

Just watched the episode. Was decent for a follow up to the last episode.

Still loving the Elrond/Durin arc. Everything about this is magic. I love the relationship Durin has with his father, those scenes were fantastic.

I'm not big on the Harfoot arc. It's started okay, then got too overdramatic with the inspiring speech that makes all Harfoots changing their ways... Didn't work for me. I don't care about them enough to see this being their 'Hobbit' moment.

And it felt like the Harfoots just keep getting in the Stranger's way when he's doing his thing. Like, just give him some space, people! I still don't know what they're planning to reveal with the Stranger and the people in white.

Everything else felt mediocre. Will see how the last episode fares.

[Shadowferal]

If anything it'll be 2 years before there's a 2nd season.

[Kumorii]

They keep playing into Halbrand being Sauron. I think this is a good way to get him into Lindon. As I've mentioned before, at this point if he isn't Sauron I will actually be disappointed. Have a hard time seeing them make another character and build that one up enough for it to be satisfying.
He will bring smithing skills to the elf lands which might be considered his "gifts". He will also bring gifts from the elf-lands to whatever city he will end up in, maybe even some of the rings (though I feel the rings won't be made for quite some time, maybe not even season 2, so doubt it). Wouldn't surprise me if the season ends with him making a suspicious devious smile in a scene of joy.

Lloyd Owen actually brings emotion to the scenes is great. Everyone else are so damn stiff. Everyone feels like mannequins.
Gonna look up more stuff he's been in. Apparently he did voice over for the Horizon games. Nothing else in his list rings a bell for me. I'm sure this show will boost his presence though. He deserves it. Him talking to Berek as @Orby mentioned is the best emotional delivery the series has shown yet.

As suspected the bs with Galadriel continues.
People dying, being burned when trying to run and cover themselves. But no scratch on her when face tanking it.
Once again she gives out a lesson that doesn't feel like her character at all. Her saying it's her fault to both Theo and Miriel just shows a lack of humility. Miriel I can understand though, but saying it to Theo... she blows up her own importance. I guess she feels she arrived too late or something which isn't her fault at all.

Dunno what it is, but the more I watch of this show, the smaller every location feels. There's no sense of scale, and it feels empty too.

I feel like the leaf and mithril showcase was kind of squandered. It's get proven by chance when Durin tosses it across the table. However, Gil-galad seemed so sure about it's healing power and Celebrimbor had apparently done tests on the piece of mithril. That would be a great place to give Celebrimbor and Gil-galad some time and show us their efforts in finding it out al. So we know, which we already do know. So the eureka moment feels so forced.
Instead of Elrond just giving the piece back and walking away they could've have Durin holding the leaf as if they were to trade the items and Elrond shows what it can do. Maybe not the best solution. But it would show the still slightly torn relationship between the two considering their trust issues in the past. You will get that "yeah, show him" moment and then I think it would feel more rewarding when the reaction of Durin happens. The table scene felt like a comedy thing tbh.

The cult women is still something I'm a bit excited for, maybe because they haven't revealed enough yet. Her being able to use that kind of magic makes her seem mighty powerful though.

Harfoots flip flops in their messaging. Should they care about each other or leave each other behind?

As someone else mentioned, the name of Mordor being revealed by just the text changing wasn't that good.
I would probably have the map fade in during the pause and have him say Mordor at the same time the text on the map changes to Mordor.

Also what the fuck happened to Mt Doom? Did it shrink?



Presumably this is the ruins of the town everything have taken place in so far. The mountain was goddamn huge and it actually looked great.
Now when you raise the camera just slightly over the town it looks like you are looking down on it. It looks like a small pile of debris not even that far away.
Granted this might not even be mount doom and it's showing one of the side direction (can't be opposite because of the mountains there and the resevoir causing this) but I doubt it. It spews out the smoke that blot out the sun.

Is it just me, or does this shot feel very off in perspective? Or are we to fill in the blanks this is some other place? There has been quite some time after the battle after all.

Wardreg might become Witch King of Angmar as a reward for his service. I mean the guy literally caused the apocalypse and brought forth Mordor. Which I would be alright with.

Balrog is pure fan service atm. Which i'm also alright with because I find them damn cool and they have actually done a good job on the design from what we've been shown so far.

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If anything it'll be 2 years before there's a 2nd season.

afaik they are recording season 2 now. Considering the money involved it can be done in a year and I think 2 years won't be good for hype.
They aspired to be Amazons GoT and that released a new seasons every year, except for 8.

[Specialka]

Yes but all you're saying is you personally don't believe it, and I can totally understand that.

Suspension of disbelief and believability are 100% subjective, as there are people who will find Pro Wrestling to be enjoyable because they believe it, or they could also enjoy it knowing it's 100% unbelievable and just enjoy it for the ride for what it is. Not all Pro wrestling is the same, not all of it has the same standard of believability or seriousness, not everyone enjoys it the same way.



RoP's combat isn't very believable. Yet the characters in the show do take it seriously. And whether it's entertaining or not is 100% subjective, not defined by me or you or youtuber experts like Shadiversity.

Sure, but I can still say that those people that enjoy that kind of fights have shitty taste.

[rhorle]

They keep playing into Halbrand being Sauron. I think this is a good way to get him into Lindon. As I've mentioned before, at this point if he isn't Sauron I will actually be disappointed. Have a hard time seeing them make another character and build that one up enough for it to be satisfying.

They could be going a "horcrux" route. Sauron split himself into different parts. Not completely against the spirit of Tolkien as we have seen the big bad evil weaken themselves to do stuff. It could compliment why the One Ring made Sauron weaker after its creation. Just an idle thought really since there are to many characters that could be Sauron including ones not yet shown on screen.

A recent article had reference one of the showrunners saying "a couple years out" for Season 2 even though production recently started. Not a full quote but it indicates 2024 would be the earliest reasonable expectation. It sucks when 1-year is usually the standard gap between seasons but maybe it will help to polish some of the things people have complained about.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv...-2-1235233124/