1. #6661
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That isn't what you said though because you said it is to be treated like real world mythology and history. Which are things that people adapt into their own works. A in-universe narrator/writer is an entirely different thing. It isn't surprising that you back pedal after inadvertently stating yourself to be wrong.
    That is not what I said. And no this is not about an in universe narrator, it is about the story itself being written by someone in universe and resembling an actual mythology within that universe. It is called a "frame story" in literature.

    Tolkien's frame stories are the narrative devices that J. R. R. Tolkien chose to use throughout his Middle-earth writings, especially his legendarium, to make the works resemble a genuine mythology written and edited by many hands over a long period of time. He described in detail how his fictional characters wrote their books and transmitted them to others, and showed how later in-universe editors annotated the material.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien%27s_frame_stories

  2. #6662
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Not sure you're making the point you think you're making there.

    What this shows is that even for super serious stuff like religions, people CAN AND DO change stuff. All the time. What's canon is always negotiable, flexible, and mutable.

    The Bible couldn't stand up to people's creative editing and reimagination - Tolkien never really had a chance
    It literally led to wars and the Bible wasn't written by one specific individual. No what's canon is not negotiable or flexible when it comes to a specific author who is dead. This pile of crap isn't canon and is actively ignoring canon throughout much of it's first season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Which "church?"

    You may not have noticed, but there have been (and still are) many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many different versions of Christianity alone. This "can't change the canon" nonsense has literally never stopped anyone before.
    When someone talks about the church it's fairly clear they are talking about the that wields entirely too much power in the current world and is in large part responsible for the current divide in us politics.

  3. #6663
    Honestly this thread is more amusing than the series. It doesnt even discuss episodes anymore, but rather the deeper meaning of what is 'good' and the merits of adaptation.

  4. #6664
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I think we're largely talking past each other. In the interests of brevity, I will just say this: I totally agree that Tolkien would have wanted those adapting his stories to respect the original work. Where we differ is in whether we believe the show and its creators are doing so. I certainly think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the idea of creating a show that fills in a part of Middle Earth's history that has not been fully fleshed out. I would like such a show to do it's best to remain consistent with the stuff Tolkien wrote. Whether it will actually achieve this....I think it's too early to tell.

    I do believe though that a lot of the staunch critics of this show made up their minds about the show long before they even saw it.
    It is the Tolkien estate who created the idea to use the appendices as the source of the "rights" for this show. And because they don't have the rights to almost anything else in the legendarium, not to mention the appendices not being full stories in themselves, they are required to "make up" a story. So by definition they were given basically rights to make up a story using characters and locations from LOTR but without all the rights to actually make a true prequel to it. So at this point this show just exists in its own fictional continuity literally separate from anything in the books. That is just a side effect of how the rights were parceled out. That itself is totally separate from whether the end result is "good" or "popular" all depend on the end product itself. Just because it has the Lord of the Rings name on it doesn't automatically make it good or popular. At the end of the day, I believe Amazon has an albatross on its hands, because they didn't actually have a compelling story that they really wanted to tell. And they literally thought just having the rights to use the name "Lord of the Rings" was enough to market the show and make it popular. That is silly thinking.



    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Jousting? I assume you meant to say fencing.

    I can completely agree that combat in Middle Earth would look very similar to real world combat. There would be some critical differences based on the fact that the heroes of middle earth are basically all superhuman, as well as the fact that the magical materials they craft their weapons and armour from make them lighter and stronger than their real world equivalents.

    The point I am making however, is that this is all moot. Combat, as depicted on the screen does not look realistic, nor should it attempt to do so because realistic looks crap on the screen.
    Yes of course. The distinction I was getting at is that it is the job of the producers to make fantastical things look "realistic" even though it is not based on reality. And the end result depends on the quality and skill of those who worked on it. Just because it is fantasy doesn't mean that the various disciplines involved in such an effort aren't serious, even if it is just keeping actors safe while filming fictional combat scenes. This is why I posted trailers from Elder Scrolls on this thread a couple times to show the difference in how games are able to better realize these things than live action.

  5. #6665
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    That is not what I said. And no this is not about an in universe narrator, it is about the story itself being written by someone in universe and resembling an actual mythology within that universe. It is called a "frame story" in literature.
    Which has nothing to do with real world mythology and history you previously said is how Tolkien wanted his work to be treated. You are deflecting to his framing device to backpedal from your own statement that proves you wrong. Real world myths and history have been adapted many many times.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Tolkien intended that this story of Middle Earth be treated like real world mythology and history even if it is fiction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    No what's canon is not negotiable or flexible when it comes to a specific author who is dead.
    It is though because the fandom doesn't just include The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and few others published by JRR as canon. They include the Silmarillion in that and that was finished by his son. Just look at how many still grumble at Rings of Power not following "canon" when it couldn't be canon since most of the stuff it diverges from was in work published after his death. The appendices just have brief passages.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  6. #6666
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Very different case. The bible never had a single author that can be considered the ultimate authority, just people who decided what belongs into the canon for political and to a lesser degree spiritual reasons. There were hundreds books by different authors that were rejected because the church's leadship didn't like the message they carried. Some survived in the apocrypha. One of my favourites being where Jesus went around killing his childhood friends when they pissed him off and then revived them.

    Here we have the works of a single man that is the authority of what his work is and what isn't. And different from many modern writers he also never had any political message he wanted to push, he hated stories that used allegory to do that. Quote: “I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence." Because "they enslaved the imaginative freedom of the reader to the didactic intentions of the author."

    His goal with the Lord of the Rings was to write history, feigned history, but still history. When the writers of Rings decided they would use the works of this man as an allegorical frame of their political activism they made their series a direct insult to Tolkien's memory. And that isn't even commenting on the quality of it, just the intent.
    I just have no idea what you are talking about regarding allegory in this show, let alone an allegory of political activism.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  7. #6667
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Very different case. The bible never had a single author that can be considered the ultimate authority, just people who decided what belongs into the canon for political and to a lesser degree spiritual reasons. There were hundreds books by different authors that were rejected because the church's leadship didn't like the message they carried. Some survived in the apocrypha. One of my favourites being where Jesus went around killing his childhood friends when they pissed him off and then revived them.

    Here we have the works of a single man that is the authority of what his work is and what isn't. And different from many modern writers he also never had any political message he wanted to push, he hated stories that used allegory to do that. Quote: “I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence." Because "they enslaved the imaginative freedom of the reader to the didactic intentions of the author."

    His goal with the Lord of the Rings was to write history, feigned history, but still history. When the writers of Rings decided they would use the works of this man as an allegorical frame of their political activism they made their series a direct insult to Tolkien's memory. And that isn't even commenting on the quality of it, just the intent.
    Hmmm so anything compiled by Christopher Tolkien doesn't count either?

    He indicated himself that he tied the tales together with his own writings, and that in many cases there are conflicting accounts.

  8. #6668
    New stills from the finale (spoilers obviously) : https://twitter.com/FellowshipFans/s...83264685305856

  9. #6669
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which has nothing to do with real world mythology and history you previously said is how Tolkien wanted his work to be treated. You are deflecting to his framing device to backpedal from your own statement that proves you wrong. Real world myths and history have been adapted many many times.
    The way I wrote it probably wasn't the best so it may have been misleading. When I said "real world" mythology, I do not mean mythology from the "real world" but a mythology that is real even though it refers to events in the fictional world. It is intended to be a real mythology about those events in that imaginary world and therefore treated as real mythology is treated in the real world. And now I have clarified it for you so there is no confusion as to what I was referring to.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-10-12 at 02:52 PM.

  10. #6670
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I just have no idea what you are talking about regarding allegory in this show, let alone an allegory of political activism.
    They took ER jobs is a pretty on the noise one.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    New stills from the finale (spoilers obviously) : https://twitter.com/FellowshipFans/s...83264685305856
    Looks like we might get the elven rings this season then. My memory is failing me at the moment, does Tolkien ever say which were made first? I can't recall him saying if the elven rings were made first, or the other 16 came before.

    Either way another deviation from lore, as no Sauron/Annatar seems to be guiding them in the creation of the rings. Him not being the one to guide/have a direct hand in crafting the rings of power would make his creation of the one ring feel more hollow/BS in my opinion. Another "new" imaging of the past that falls flat/is much worse than Tolkien.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-10-12 at 02:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  11. #6671
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    They took ER jobs is a pretty on the noise one.



    Looks like we might get the elven rings this season then. My memory is failing me at the moment, does Tolkien ever say which were made first? I can't recall him saying if the elven rings were made first, or the other 16 came before.

    Either way another deviation from lore, as no Sauron/Annatar seems to be guiding them in the creation of the rings. Him not being the one to guide/have a direct hand in crafting the rings of power would make his creation of the one ring feel more hollow/BS in my opinion. Another "new" imaging of the past that falls flat/is much worse than Tolkien.
    The 16 rings came before. And we're made with Sauron there. The elven rings were made after he left and Celebrimbor did them on his own.

    Seems they are the going opposite route. Which is weird since the lore of ringcraft was Saurons gift to the elves. Will Sauron be taught it instead? Who knows... Maybe they cut out his manipulation skills.
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  12. #6672
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    The 16 rings came before. And we're made with Sauron there. The elven rings were made after he left and Celebrimbor did them on his own.

    Seems they are the going opposite route. Which is weird since the lore of ringcraft was Saurons gift to the elves. Will Sauron be taught it instead? Who knows... Maybe they cut out his manipulation skills.
    Maybe Halbrand gave them a few tips by way of thanks for their elvish medicine.

  13. #6673
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    Maybe Halbrand gave them a few tips by way of thanks for their elvish medicine.
    That's what I assume as well... But the order makes little sense since the elven rings weren't as much of a disaster like the other 16 just because he wasn't involved.... Shrug.
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  14. #6674
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    therefore treated as real mythology is treated in the real world.
    Which still means that it can be adapted and will be adapted by others.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Looks like we might get the elven rings this season then. My memory is failing me at the moment, does Tolkien ever say which were made first? I can't recall him saying if the elven rings were made first, or the other 16 came before.
    The minor rings and the non-elven major rings came first and were corrupted by Sauron or at least the major rings were. The 3 elven rings were made after and not corrupted by Sauron.

    https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Rings_of_Power#History
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-10-12 at 03:27 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #6675
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    They took ER jobs is a pretty on the noise one.
    That just seems like pretty normal stuff you might expect to see in any society. Did you complain that Wormtongue was an allegory for the dangers of corrupt political advisors?

    This is classic projection, reading into things that aren't there because of personal hangups.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  16. #6676
    You have to be blind or dumb not to recognise the allegory in this show. Or just arguing dishonestly.

  17. #6677
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    You have to be blind or dumb not to recognise the allegory in this show. Or just arguing dishonestly.
    On the internet? Who would do that
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  18. #6678
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That just seems like pretty normal stuff you might expect to see in any society. Did you complain that Wormtongue was an allegory for the dangers of corrupt political advisors?

    This is classic projection, reading into things that aren't there because of personal hangups.
    Are you really going to be that dishonest? I mean we are seriously going to ignore one elf somehow making people think their jobs are in danger and it not being a modern allegory? In what way is this normal?

    The original text had them being angry at elves because of their longevity, their immortality, which was completely reasonable. A single elf taking your jobs is not.

    This isn't classic projection, but you are certainly doing some classic gaslighting.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-10-12 at 03:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  19. #6679
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    Fuck knows. Dead or imprisoned, the latter if they're going to at least retain some of the lore, as he needs to form the Last Alliance with Elendil. I don't think this is the likely option btw, but when you look at his influence on events compared to Halbrand's, it's Gil-Galad's actions that would have been most advantageous for Sauron.
    I think that would be way too much. I know the adaptation has creative liberties, I don't know if this is one of them.

    It would be odd if Sauron ended up taking place of King of the Elves and not done even more damage to the Elves in the position he's in. Gil-Galad literally commands a position of power so Sauron wouldn't even need to be Dark Lord if he already usurped the role of Leader of the Elves. He could literally give the command to the Elves to do far worse things than create the Rings of Power if he'd already obtained this position.

    ---

    What I really want to know (and know won't be explained) is how the whole rube goldberg machine that ended up turning Mount Doom into what it was ended up being there in the first place. Felt so convenient that it was just a switch waiting to be turned on left idle for centuries/millenia. Like, no time is spent setting up the origins of the 'plan'. And Adar seemed to know a lot about it, yet still looked quite surprised when he finally came across the statue. Would he have not seen or known about it if Arondir didn't brush away the vines?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-12 at 03:53 PM.

  20. #6680
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Are you really going to be that dishonest? I mean we are seriously going to ignore one elf somehow making people think their jobs are in danger and it not being a modern allegory? In what way is this normal?

    The original text had them being angry at elves because of their longevity, their immortality, which was completely reasonable. A single elf taking your jobs is not.

    This isn't classic projection, but you are certainly doing some classic gaslighting.
    I have no idea how anyone who has ever cracked a history book in their life could possible think "Tradespeople being concerned for their jobs" is some modern phenomenon. This is exactly what I am talking about. You are taking your own terminally online politics and projecting it onto everyone else. If Wormtongue was not from the books but his exact story existed in this show, you would tell us how it's a modern allegory for political leaders being beholden to corrupt advisors. OBVIOUSLY THEY MUST BE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE STEVE BANNON AND RUDY GIULIANI, RIGHT? You could do this with anything if you want to. You could look at the original books and say that Tolkien was pushing a message about how different races need to combine their efforts, even though in reality he wasn't trying to convey any such meaning. Anyone can project their obnoxious political hangups into anything if they try hard enough.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

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