1. #6721
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    And as such, the entire legendarium is to be treated and respected as a whole history with its own mythology. Tolkien did not intend it to be broken up into pieces such as in the way the appendices were used to justify the rights being given to a studio to make a series that completely goes against the mythology and history within the legendarium itself.
    The Legendarium wasn't all published so it can't all be treated as the same mythology. If it is to be treated as the same mythology then him intending some of it to be adapted by publishing and selling the rights applies to the entire thing. Right? You keep flip flopping on what Tolkien intended based on what you need to respond to in the moment.
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  2. #6722
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Again, you realize Tolkein had pretty obvious political allegories in his work, right? Environmentalism, anti-war, and so on and so forth?

    What do you think they're talking about when the Ents lament that Saruman used to walk the woods of Fangorn, but now has "a mind of metal and wheels."

    There's a reason the hippies at Woodstock made "For Frodo!" their rallying cry.
    Debatable (for those) since allegory is about the hidden meaning, and Tolkien was pretty upfront about his view in these cases. If you wanted to say he had allegory for his faith in his works, I would concede. The whole point of his stories was to create a timeless work that would be English legend. To make something timeless like that guess what you are going to hit some core themes, in his case the destruction of nature, the woes of war, etc.

    What makes the whole "take our jobs" bad is the juxtaposition of how it is done in the story vs why/how Tolkien created the conflict in his books. There is no reason the original meaning/conflict couldn't have worked (aka elves longevity), the only reason to do it the way they did is for the modern allegory. Be honest, do you think the whole "took our jobs" is a better reason for Numenors dislike for elves than the original? If not ask yourself why was it done this way in the rings of power.

    Also again then it would be his story, and not someone else interjecting it into his work to conform to modern sensibilities (something the show runners have stated they did). Whatever themes/allegories/analogies/etc an author wants to put into their work is up to them, the issue is when others decide to take that work and inject their own ideas/beliefs into it, especially when you have a timeless work and the show runners say they want to make it modern.

    Also you ignore my 2nd point completely.

    Getting back on point, looking through the stills again I would have much preferred they had Celebrimbor in this outfit the whole time. While he is still way to old for my taste, this at least is much better and makes him look like a craftsman instead of a grandma.

    Though it again makes the timescale in this show even more confusing, as the tower which was partially built is now fully(?) built and operational, with Galadriel present. Meanwhile we also will see meteor man fight/confront the 3 ladies in the same episode, who were at most a day behind. Then again when Numenor can cross the ocean, setup a camp, and ride to a village they have no clue is under attack in a span of a few days why should I be surprised.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-10-12 at 06:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  3. #6723
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The Legendarium wasn't all published so it can't all be treated as the same mythology. If it is to be treated as the same mythology then him intending some of it to be adapted by publishing and selling the rights applies to the entire thing. Right? You keep flip flopping on what Tolkien intended based on what you need to respond to in the moment.
    I mentioned that Tolkien never published the legendarium a few pages ago and to you myself so you are just going in circles because you keep repeating the same points in different ways and keep being wrong. Tolkien did not intend his work to be broken up in pieces and used to justify something like this series. Meaning in no way would he have supported taking the appendices from LOTR to make a completely made up story about the second age that does not respect the actual story of the 2nd age. You keep repeating yourself and keep being wrong because I have not changed my point, you just keep repeating yourself. The legendarium published or unpublished still represents his will and intent for the story of middle earth because he is the sole author of it. That has nothing to do with this series because it does not have the rights to the entire legendarium anyway so it isn't an adaptation of it because it is only an adaptation of the appendices. Not to mention the series contradicts what is even in the appendices anyway.

    Again, just drop it and agree to disagree. You aren't proving anything by repeating your insane nonsense.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-10-12 at 06:15 PM.

  4. #6724
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    -snip-
    This is, again, a gripe about HOW things are being adapted - the problem is, people on your side of this argument are suggesting political allegory has no place in the adaptation because there wasn't political allegory in the original. There was.

    If you accept that the adaptation will be different because, as the showrunners stated, they want to update it for modern times, then the question becomes about what the changes do to affect the meaning of the actions.

    For example, in both Tolkien's work and this new work, the Numenoreans were mad at the elves. Their reason for being mad at the elves was.....illogical. It was based on characteristics of elves that the elves had no control over, that were inherent to who they were - it is, essentially, racism/speciesism. That hatred rankles through Numenor and leads to its downfall. In the show, I'd say they actually tamed the illogical-ness of the Numenoreans. They tie it to economic fear. It certainly doesn't have the impact, and can be more muddled than outright elvish discrimination because they're elves, and in that way, it dilutes the main message that is trying to be conveyed to the audience: the Numenoreans are illogically hostile to these elves and their allies, and this fear and hatred is a problem that will lead to their downfall.

    When Isildur fails to throw the ring into the fires of Mt. Doom, we want to know why - background information from Tolkien suggests this illogical inferiority complex had something to do with it, leading to his desire to grasp power/dominion over elves. Going forward in the show, the main motivation (the irrational dislike of elves) continues, but grounds it more in....well, real-ish issues. Job security is something very modern, and admittedly in societies like this it's a bit out of place because economics were much more simple. Whether that rings true as a reason why Isildur doesn't throw the ring in the fire is left to be seen, but I can definitely see it being diminished because the "irrationality" is so muddled and messy. It's like those Hatfield vs McCoy feuds where after a couple centuries, you're wondering why the hell they're still fighting.

  5. #6725
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Except he had had no special treatment at that point. At most he got an audience with the queen, where he asked for nothing. He then left, tried to get a job, tried to steal the crest, and end up in a fight. He then ended up in jail where they seemed convinced to let him rot until the tree convinced the queen that Galadriel was right which happened AFTER this scene.

    Also if special treatment had anything to do with his complaints, maybe he should have mentioned that rather than going off on a tyrade about elven physical ability.



    There was still significantly more interaction between the chinese and the americans that prompted this. Certainly more than "I got into a brawl with a thief who had a chinese friend".

    Again, I don't have a problem with the show showing racism towards the elves. I have a problem where it comes out of nowhere.
    Do you really think that a population of people with economic anxiety won't blame a group that they happen to have a preexisting cultural resentment toward?

    Blaming a race of people for your problems isn't just racist, it's the oldest, most classic, most predictable form a racism. You can't say that you are ok with them being racist, but not OK with them expressing that racism in the most common way racism is expressed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Debatable (for those) since allegory is about the hidden meaning, and Tolkien was pretty upfront about his view in these cases. If you wanted to say he had allegory for his faith in his works, I would concede. The whole point of his stories was to create a timeless work that would be English legend. To make something timeless like that guess what you are going to hit some core themes, in his case the destruction of nature, the woes of war, etc.

    What makes the whole "take our jobs" bad is the juxtaposition of how it is done in the story vs why/how Tolkien created the conflict in his books. There is no reason the original meaning/conflict couldn't have worked (aka elves longevity), the only reason to do it the way they did is for the modern allegory. Be honest, do you think the whole "took our jobs" is a better reason for Numenors dislike for elves than the original? If not ask yourself why was it done this way in the rings of power.

    Also again then it would be his story, and not someone else interjecting it into his work to conform to modern sensibilities (something the show runners have stated they did). Whatever themes/allegories/analogies/etc an author wants to put into their work is up to them, the issue is when others decide to take that work and inject their own ideas/beliefs into it, especially when you have a timeless work and the show runners say they want to make it modern.

    Also you ignore my 2nd point completely.

    Getting back on point, looking through the stills again I would have much preferred they had Celebrimbor in this outfit the whole time. While he is still way to old for my taste, this at least is much better and makes him look like a craftsman instead of a grandma.

    Though it again makes the timescale in this show even more confusing, as the tower which was partially built is now fully(?) built and operational, with Galadriel present. Meanwhile we also will see meteor man fight/confront the 3 ladies in the same episode, who were at most a day behind. Then again when Numenor can cross the ocean, setup a camp, and ride to a village they have no clue is under attack in a span of a few days why should I be surprised.
    Blaming a race for your practical anxieties which are not that race's fault is the most common way that racism is expressed, throughout history. That isn't modern, and it is in fact a core aspect of the divides in the Europe that Tolkien was living in.

    Expecting racism to be expressed through someone just saying "Shucks they live so long, it makes me mad!" is childish. That's not how tribalism gets expressed, almost ever. Tribalism is expressed by building a resentment and THEN that resentment leads to treating the "others" as a threat, typically in ways that are absolutely irrational.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Well one aspect you and ninespine conveniently ignore is in that case it would be the original author creating the message/work.

    With rings of power we have someone "adapting" the work and adding something not in the original in such a illogical/hamfisted manner. Like others have said if the Numenorean's had gotten mad at Halbrand since he actually took up blacksmithing/potentially took a job, I wouldn't have cared really. Yet they made it Galadriel/elves that are taking the jobs even though Galadriel literally gave no indication of taking a job(in fact she literally from the start wanted to leave Numenor). This anger at elves is being superimposed over the original message(elves are immortal/numenor is pissed about having a short lifespan) to try and keep the same outcome (Numenor mad at elves).

    That is why it is an issue, that is why people have said it is a poor allegory.
    Rings of Power isn't an adaptation. It's an expansion of aspects that Tolkien did not flesh out, which are the aspects he also clearly stated he expected other people to work with.

    You guys just don't seem to understand how things like this work, and you expect a really comically childish version of racial antagonism and tribalism.
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  6. #6726
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Tolkien did not intend his work to be broken up in pieces and used to justify something like this series.
    Which is false since he broke up his work by only publishing some of it and selling the rights to some of it. His sale of rights didn't restrict to just "known stories". If the legendarium unpublished still represents his will then he would be fine with the parts of it being adapted. Because he already established he was fine with adaptations because of selling rights to make adaptations. You keep arbitrarily changing his "intent" based on the argument you are making at the time.
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  7. #6727
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    This is, again, a gripe about HOW things are being adapted - the problem is, people on your side of this argument are suggesting political allegory has no place in the adaptation because there wasn't political allegory in the original. There was.

    If you accept that the adaptation will be different because, as the showrunners stated, they want to update it for modern times, then the question becomes about what the changes do to affect the meaning of the actions.
    I never said it has no place, I said it is out of place, and ham-fisted, and poorly done. This allegory is clearly being done because of our modern politics, that is what the show runners have stated. I already mentioned the changing of the meaning changes how it would occur, but they want the same outcome (aka mad at elves). Yet as I pointed out it doesn't logical work here as what occurred is not reflective of the rage (aka Numenors mad at elves/Galadriel for taking jobs, when in reality she wanted to leave, and it was another human that took? someones job).

    Please, point out how you think this is better than how Tolkien wrote it. Tell me why this is such a meaningful change it had to be done instead of having the numenoreans mad about the lack of immortality. The only logical basis for this change is for a modern allegory, it wasn't about telling a story, it was about the show runners getting in message.

    If you are okay with that, more power to you I guess, but several others including myself don't like it. It is just one of the many, many issues I have with the show


    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    For example, in both Tolkien's work and this new work, the Numenoreans were mad at the elves. Their reason for being mad at the elves was.....illogical. It was based on characteristics of elves that the elves had no control over, that were inherent to who they were - it is, essentially, racism/speciesism. That hatred rankles through Numenor and leads to its downfall. In the show, I'd say they actually tamed the illogical-ness of the Numenoreans. They tie it to economic fear. It certainly doesn't have the impact, and can be more muddled than outright elvish discrimination because they're elves, and in that way, it dilutes the main message that is trying to be conveyed to the audience: the Numenoreans are illogically hostile to these elves and their allies, and this fear and hatred is a problem that will lead to their downfall.
    Fear of death is most certainly a logical fear, and anger at others for the abilities/blessings they have is certainly logical as well. The shows version doesn't logically work unless they want to completely changethe story, including how Numenor falls, as it certainly makes no logical sense to assault Valinor because you need jobs that elves are taking. This would also mean changing the reshaping of the world. Also another core component of it was that Numoreans were blessed men, given greater strength and longer lives, but they still didn't get the full package that elves got. They got a taste of it, and that taste made them greedy for more, made them crave more, give them a desire to not just be longer lived but immortal.

    You also change the reason they fall in your purposed method, as in the silmarillion they fell not from fear, but from greed and arrogance. Their fall was from a belief that they deserved the immortality that was given to elves, and if it wasn't going to be given they would take it, by force if necessary. So many large changes have to be made in order to conform to the story the writers/you purpose, vastly changing the intent, the outcome, and how everything will play out, which is a huge issue for me. Like how/why does Numenor get washed away, the world becoming round (doubt they make it flat, will just pretend it is always round). Will also have to downplay Numenor or remove the fact they were so strong they captured Sauron. So many things getting changed, it bothers me greatly.

    I loved the concept of the Numenorean's being so arrogant, so filled with greed that they were willing to sail to basically the heavens and demand immortality from the gods, and were so powerful that the gods asked the one true god to smite them. You can't get that same story/feeling when their anger is based on economy and jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    When Isildur fails to throw the ring into the fires of Mt. Doom, we want to know why - background information from Tolkien suggests this illogical inferiority complex had something to do with it, leading to his desire to grasp power/dominion over elves. Going forward in the show, the main motivation (the irrational dislike of elves) continues, but grounds it more in....well, real-ish issues. Job security is something very modern, and admittedly in societies like this it's a bit out of place because economics were much more simple. Whether that rings true as a reason why Isildur doesn't throw the ring in the fire is left to be seen, but I can definitely see it being diminished because the "irrationality" is so muddled and messy. It's like those Hatfield vs McCoy feuds where after a couple centuries, you're wondering why the hell they're still fighting.
    We know why though... It was greed. Yes we can summarize it was the inferiority complex at the root, but it was also the lust for power that the ring radiates that was the cause. The whole economic fear being the motivating force might be logical in a real world scenario, but for a Tolkien story it takes me firmly out of it. I also disagree it is more real-ish. Nothing is more real than the fear of death, of mortality (which indirectly I guess would be the motivation you speak of via economy, but it lacks the fundamental power and feelings for me).

    As you admit it is more modern, and out of place, that is the whole issue. The original meaning worked perfectly (fear of death), would still be meaningful to modern audiences (we all fear death still and yearn for immortality), and stayed true to Tolkien. They even had to change the history in Rings of Power to say they want to create colonies in middle earth (they already had in Tolkien) for trade and such, yet in episode 7 Branwyn mentions an old Numenorean tower/encampment they can go to. When you add in that it was mentioned Numenor has been isolationist for a while and it just makes it a confusing mess where the show runners either change their story or don't know what they themselves are saying.

    It takes me out of the story and just makes for a worse experience, as I wonder what the fuck is going on way to much, and spend too much time trying to figure out any sort of time scale.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-10-12 at 06:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  8. #6728
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    This is, again, a gripe about HOW things are being adapted - the problem is, people on your side of this argument are suggesting political allegory has no place in the adaptation because there wasn't political allegory in the original. There was.
    It does not have, Tolkien himself said he hate allegory, and he didn't use one, if you are adapting his work, you should at least uphold his idea and the essence of his work. Its one of the things that made the work atemporal and be believable.
    If you accept that the adaptation will be different because, as the showrunners stated, they want to update it for modern times, then the question becomes about what the changes do to affect the meaning of the actions.
    As we saw, it greatly affects the quality of it.

    For example, in both Tolkien's work and this new work, the Numenoreans were mad at the elves. Their reason for being mad at the elves was.....illogical. It was based on characteristics of elves that the elves had no control over, that were inherent to who they were - it is, essentially, racism/speciesism. That hatred rankles through Numenor and leads to its downfall. In the show, I'd say they actually tamed the illogical-ness of the Numenoreans. They tie it to economic fear. It certainly doesn't have the impact, and can be more muddled than outright elvish discrimination because they're elves, and in that way, it dilutes the main message that is trying to be conveyed to the audience: the Numenoreans are illogically hostile to these elves and their allies, and this fear and hatred is a problem that will lead to their downfall.
    It was not rly illogical; it makes sense if you are immersed in the scenario and know how the numenorians only got long lifespan and not immortality as gift, and yes, im pretty sure the elves can choose to be mortals.

    And the problem on what the showrunners did is, it does not keep the same message, neither the same significance, and it does not make sense, nothing about "the elves gonna take our jebs" make sense, is so cringe that i don't know how they even did that, numenorians were supposed to be almost 8ft, strong with the triple the lifespan of a normal man, and being one of the most advanced empires at time, they would not be scared about one elf taking their jebs


    When Isildur fails to throw the ring into the fires of Mt. Doom, we want to know why - background information from Tolkien suggests this illogical inferiority complex had something to do with it, leading to his desire to grasp power/dominion over elves. Going forward in the show, the main motivation (the irrational dislike of elves) continues, but grounds it more in....well, real-ish issues. Job security is something very modern, and admittedly in societies like this it's a bit out of place because economics were much more simple. Whether that rings true as a reason why Isildur doesn't throw the ring in the fire is left to be seen, but I can definitely see it being diminished because the "irrationality" is so muddled and messy. It's like those Hatfield vs McCoy feuds where after a couple centuries, you're wondering why the hell they're still fighting.
    We already knew why; it fails because the ring claims him first.

    But oh man, just reading you saying "isuldur didn't throw the ring into the fire because he was afraid of losing his job for the elves" is rich, and prob something the showrunners would think

  9. #6729
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    This allegory is clearly being done because of our modern politics, that is what the show runners have stated.
    This is a lie.

    Please, point out how you think this is better than how Tolkien wrote it. Tell me why this is such a meaningful change it had to be done instead of having the numenoreans mad about the lack of immortality. The only logical basis for this change is for a modern allegory, it wasn't about telling a story, it was about the show runners getting in message.
    It isn't changed. The underlying reason for the antagonism has not been changed. You are just looking at an expression of that antagonism, which in line with how humans have worked for thousands of years, is irrational and done by blaming the "other" for practical anxieties.

    As you admit it is more modern, and out of place, that is the whole issue. The original meaning worked perfectly (fear of death), would still be meaningful to modern audiences (we all fear death still and yearn for immortality), and stayed true to Tolkien.
    Common folk are not going to express their racial antagonism that is due to fear of death by just saying "Man, I'm so scared of death, therefore I don't like elves!" That would just be such absurdly bad writing that I can't believe you actually want it to be shown that way.
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  10. #6730
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    This is a lie.


    It isn't changed. The underlying reason for the antagonism has not been changed. You are just looking at an expression of that antagonism, which in line with how humans have worked for thousands of years, is irrational and done by blaming the "other" for practical anxieties.



    Common folk are not going to express their racial antagonism that is due to fear of death by just saying "Man, I'm so scared of death, therefore I don't like elves!" That would just be such absurdly bad writing that I can't believe you actually want it to be shown that way.
    You're wrong, it isn't a lie.

    It is changed, fucking lol. The underlying reason is vastly changed, and what ends it would drive. No reason to sail to valinor to demand immortality (guess for you it might be logical to sail to the land of gods and demand jobs).

    Common folk express racial antagonism for many reasons, and yes death would be one of them. Do you honestly think if say Asians lived for hundreds of years the other races wouldn't get pissed off at them for it? Resent them for it? Want to do something about it so they could live as long?

    Guess Tolkien was a bad writer (only sold hundreds of millions of books). Thank you for confirming you are in fact a troll. No point in talking to you till you want to be logical.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-10-12 at 06:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  11. #6731
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    You're wrong, it isn't a lie.
    I will wire you $1000 if you can show me a real quote where they said that they intend for the show to be an allegory of modern politics.

    It is changed, fucking lol. The underlying reason is vastly changed, and what ends it would drive. No reason to sail to valinor to demand immortality (guess for you it might be logical to sail to the land of gods and demand jobs).
    Tell me the scene where they change it.

    Common folk express racial antagonism for many reasons, and yes death would be one of them. Do you honestly think if say Asians lived for hundreds of years the other races wouldn't get pissed off at them for it? Resent them for it? Want to do something about it so they could live as long?
    I think the way that they would express that is by blaming Asians for their practical anxieties, not by standing up and declaring "Long-lived people frighten me, I am scared of them, and I don't like it!" This is so fucking childish.

    Guess Tolkien was a bad writer (only sold hundreds of millions of books). Thank you for confirming you are in fact a troll. No point in talking to you till you want to be logical.
    Maybe I never read that part, but if you could tell me the chapter where Tolkien describes common folk expressing their resentment of the elves by plainly stating "I am irrationally afraid of people that live longer than me", I'd love to know where it was.

    Also, "Um you're a troll" is a really boring and weak way to deflect arguments you know you can't win.
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  12. #6732
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I will wire you $1000 if you can show me a real quote where they said that they intend for the show to be an allegory of modern politics.
    Can I get 1/2 that for providing evidence to the contrary?

    https://www.gamespot.com/articles/th.../1100-6505885/

    "This was one of Tolkien's debate points with C.S. Lewis, his friend and colleague," said McKay. "It was very important that what he was creating was not an allegory. He was not commenting on historical events of his time or another time. He was not trying to transmit a message that spoke to contemporary politics. He wanted to create a mythos that was timeless, and would be applicable--that was his word, 'applicable'--the applicability across times."

    McKay goes on to explain that every choice the team has made regarding the show is to "be faithful to that aspiration," as they don't want to adapt the material in a way that might make it feel dated. "We aspire to being timeless. That’s why these books still speak to people so much, because so much of what’s in them has not aged a day. And we aspire to do the same thing."

    The co-showrunner believes that when viewers see the show, and the stories and characters in context, "they'll feel the same way."
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  13. #6733
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    It's weird, when C.S. Lewis makes obvious Christian supremacy allegories, and the evils of Islam in the Tarkaans who worship Tash, no one says anything about him pushing a political agenda. Mainly because it's a "normalized" agenda.
    Ehh I disagree here -

    C.S. Lewis's "Wardrobe" books have been on various ban lists ever since they were published, because of their Christian allegory and whomever's problem with that (whether its the right, or wrong allegory, or whether its not even allowed because its Christ, I never understood it myself.) You'd think, because yeah, its a "Christian message" that wouldn't be the case. But here we are.

    Just saying - not the best author to pick as his books have absolutely been banned/persecuted against because of the religious (political) messaging.

    For anyone to say something about C S Lewis's political agenda HERE on MMO Champion would take a modern production company making a new show about it first .
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  14. #6734
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    Can I get 1/2 that for providing evidence to the contrary?

    https://www.gamespot.com/articles/th.../1100-6505885/
    This is so hilarious that I'm tempted to.
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  15. #6735
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    Can I get 1/2 that for providing evidence to the contrary?

    https://www.gamespot.com/articles/th.../1100-6505885/
    How this is evidence to the contrary? it straight up confirms and set them up as liars LOL.

    Every choice the team made is not to be "faithful to the aspiration" of being a timeless mythos, an angry numenorian afraid of elves taking their jebs is not a "timeless mythos" is a lame allegory.

    you know something that is timeless? greed and envy, the fear of death, both aspects of human nature.

    And this is just one of the allegories in the show, i still remember a white dude (from a place clearly to be an allegory to post-war Germany) yelling at Arondil - a black actor - "why can't you people let the past go?"

    You can say those things are coincidence, but come on now, clearly the writers don't have quality to even tempt a coincidence

  16. #6736
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    I mentioned that Tolkien never published the legendarium a few pages ago and to you myself so you are just going in circles because you keep repeating the same points in different ways and keep being wrong. Tolkien did not intend his work to be broken up in pieces and used to justify something like this series. Meaning in no way would he have supported taking the appendices from LOTR to make a completely made up story about the second age that does not respect the actual story of the 2nd age. You keep repeating yourself and keep being wrong because I have not changed my point, you just keep repeating yourself. The legendarium published or unpublished still represents his will and intent for the story of middle earth because he is the sole author of it. That has nothing to do with this series because it does not have the rights to the entire legendarium anyway so it isn't an adaptation of it because it is only an adaptation of the appendices. Not to mention the series contradicts what is even in the appendices anyway.

    Again, just drop it and agree to disagree. You aren't proving anything by repeating your insane nonsense.
    Seriously, that guy will argue that black was white and then claim he said it was grey and reduce everything to semantics. He's a child Just ignore him. Alternatively, just post random copy and paste nonsense and see how long he responds desperately trying to get the last word.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    At no point have I claimed people weren't getting gold from the token or that gold can not be used to acquire power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    p2w is not inherently unfair.

  17. #6737
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You can say those things are coincidence, but come on now, clearly the writers don't have quality to even tempt a coincidence
    Well, considering how the writers were hired, we know it wasn't for their ability to write. Prior to coming onto RoP to write, they both had only one uncredited writing role on JJ Abram's Star Trek Beyond movie... that's it. In a more recent article interview, the writers basically admitted they went to JJ Abrams to get him to push Amazon into hiring them... then suddenly they get chosen as the writers.

    Anyways, the lore of the show being in shambles whether you compare it to Tolkien's works or not aside, the writing and editing of the show is enough to sink it even for normies. We've know what will happen in each episode for months, and I think normies are going to be pissed about certain things that are in (and not in) the last episode. Honestly, I'm curious how they're going to pad out the next episode considering how little development there will be. But don't let your hearts be troubled, Galadriel is finally going to do something that any sane person would've done 5-6 episodes ago despite a character constantly saying she was wrong about it... then we'll get a Galadriel Pikachu face moment that will probably not even land as being impactful for even the normies.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  18. #6738
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    It's weird, when C.S. Lewis makes obvious Christian supremacy allegories, and the evils of Islam in the Tarkaans who worship Tash, no one says anything about him pushing a political agenda. Mainly because it's a "normalized" agenda.
    Or because those books are sixty years old. Choose a better point of attack holy crap lol. Lewis's last book that he fully wrote himself was published in freaking 1956 with Chronicles published between 1949 and 1954 and yes Horse and his Boy absolutely has some very questionable parts.

  19. #6739
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Anyways, the lore of the show being in shambles whether you compare it to Tolkien's works or not aside, the writing and editing of the show is enough to sink it...Honestly, I'm curious how they're going to pad out the next episode considering how little development there will be. But don't let your hearts be troubled, Galadriel is finally going to do something that any sane person would've done 5-6 episodes ago despite a character constantly saying she was wrong about it...
    I'm honestly curious as to whether most British people (you know, Tolkien was actually one of them) and most Europeans, Australians, non-Americans actually enjoyed the show or not. So far the strongest defenders AND critics seem to be from mostly Americans fighting over weird culture war issues online, it's very difficult for me to tell whether most people outside the USA, where Amazon is based after all, thinks it's a worthy successor to Jackson and Tolkien's creative work. If any non-American Tolkien fan here can tell me what most of their friends think about the show, here or privately, I would be very grateful!

    I will say though that Amazon is a multinational corporation with billions of dollars and its share of past scandals and allegations of considerable employee mistreatment. I also use Amazon occasionally, but that does certainly not make me blind to its moral failings and past mistakes, some progressive Democrats have strongly criticized its policies in the past. We shouldn't let fantasy entertainment blind us to some of the real issues at hand also, they are still a real manifestation of very extreme and unchecked capitalism.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...ions-warehouse
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/15/u...e-workers.html

    Anyway, I watched several more episodes, and there was some improvement, I admit, Numenor was very impressive and beautiful, but the show itself still seems somewhat lacklustre and average at best, nothing that is breathtaking enough for me to view it as a timeless masterpiece.
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2022-10-13 at 05:27 PM.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  20. #6740
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Well, considering how the writers were hired, we know it wasn't for their ability to write. Prior to coming onto RoP to write, they both had only one uncredited writing role on JJ Abram's Star Trek Beyond movie... that's it.
    You mean the show runners. The writers have more acclaim. In addition to the show runners there is Gennifer Hutchison, Helen Shang, Jason Cahill, Justin Doble, Bryan Cogman, Stephany Folsom, and Glenise Mullins.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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