Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[bledgor]

I do believe there is an unspoken side of the fanbase that has come to expect things like Hobbits and Wizards in any Tolkien related and just want raw 'generic' fantasy.

I'm already seeing such criticisms from the Star Wars fandom for Andor not having the classic Star Wars tropes of aliens and lightsabers and being too much of a slow burn, even if there's plenty of other Star Wars shows with that already. Andor is masterfully crafted and doesn't insult your intelligence, but that doesn't even matter to a sizeable chunk of the audience.

See I like hobbits, but to me that isn't iconic Tolkien. Even the wizards, it isn't the normal "wizard". Most people think of WoW or dnd wizards, flinging spells and casting big magic. That wasn't Tolkien's wizards though, they always had the tone of wise old man rather than wizarding old man.

You could be right though, I just wonder how large that unspoken base is.

[jonnysensible]

hello im the elistist gatekeeper the sheeple have once again got this one wrong because they are uncultured and not a smart lad like me m'lady

[Xath]

hello im the elistist gatekeeper the sheeple have once again got this one wrong because they are uncultured and not a smart lad like me m'lady

The m'lady folks are the ones defending this trash but nice try mate.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The m'lady folks are the ones defending this trash but nice try mate.

Didn’t you post about how if some one skipped some parts of the novels they can’t be real Tolkien fans and shouldn’t be taken seriously in any thing they say?

[Triceron]

See I like hobbits, but to me that isn't iconic Tolkien. Even the wizards, it isn't the normal "wizard". Most people think of WoW or dnd wizards, flinging spells and casting big magic. That wasn't Tolkien's wizards though, they always had the tone of wise old man rather than wizarding old man.

You could be right though, I just wonder how large that unspoken base is.

It's in the millions, easily. It's the casual audience. It's people like my mom and dad, or my cousins who aren't as steeped in geek culture as me or my friends. It's the Marvel fans who haven't read a single comic, it's the gamers who only stick with playing mobile games.

I honestly don't blame Rings of Power for being 'watered down' and skipping over glaring plot holes for the sake of overdramatization, because the audience this show is aimed at is clearly the casuals who aren't going to be bothered by it rather than the enthusiasts. And as an enthusiast, I have to literally turn my brain off to enjoy this show. I wish it weren't the case, but that's the show. And I honestly don't blame it for choosing to be what it is.

I see this being similar to the Star Wars prequels. Rings of Power is just LOTR made for a different audience. It's not really for the Book fans, or dare I say even the original trilogy fans. It's got some stuff that is still LOTR, but it isn't the Original Trilogy that enthusiasts love. And that's still okay, because like Star Wars, the Prequels have their place even if they're not the best movies. And honestly, just because I personally don't like the prequels, and acknowledge that there are many people who also don't like the prequels, I still acknowledge that there's a HUGE fanbase in the millions who do like it. And that's okay.

This isn't my Lord of the Rings, but as a general Tolkien/Middle-Earth enthusiast, I'll still consume what we've got because it's what we've got. Much like I 'suffered' through the full 3 extended Hobbit movies, knowing that I didn't really enjoy them as much as I'd like to. All I can hope is for a Tolkien enthusiast with video editing skills will come around and maybe take a crack at making a more palettable version of the series that doesn't hold my hand through the story. As I say many times in this thread, the Maple cut of the Hobbit is one of my favourite versions of the film, and it makes the Hobbit Trilogy better by trimming the fat. And with Rings of Power, I think there's a lot of fat to trim.

[bledgor]

It's in the millions, easily. It's the casual audience. It's people like my mom and dad, or my cousins who aren't as steeped in geek culture as me or my friends. It's the Marvel fans who haven't read a single comic, it's the gamers who only stick with playing mobile games.

I honestly don't blame Rings of Power for being 'watered down' and skipping over glaring plot holes for the sake of overdramatization, because the audience this show is aimed at is clearly the casuals who aren't going to be bothered by it rather than the enthusiasts. And as an enthusiast, I have to literally turn my brain off to enjoy this show. I wish it weren't the case, but that's the show. And I honestly don't blame it for choosing to be what it is.

I see this being similar to the Star Wars prequels. Rings of Power is just LOTR made for a different audience. It's not really for the Book fans, or dare I say even the original trilogy fans. It's got some stuff that is still LOTR, but it isn't the Original Trilogy that enthusiasts love. And that's still okay, because like Star Wars, the Prequels have their place even if they're not the best movies. And honestly, just because I personally don't like the prequels, and acknowledge that there are many people who also don't like the prequels, I still acknowledge that there's a HUGE fanbase in the millions who do like it. And that's okay.

This isn't my Lord of the Rings, but as a general Tolkien/Middle-Earth enthusiast, I'll still consume what we've got because it's what we've got. Much like I 'suffered' through the full 3 extended Hobbit movies, knowing that I didn't really enjoy them as much as I'd like to. All I can hope is for a Tolkien enthusiast with video editing skills will come around and maybe take a crack at making a more palettable version of the series that doesn't hold my hand through the story. As I say many times in this thread, the Maple cut of the Hobbit is one of my favourite versions of the film, and it makes the Hobbit Trilogy better by trimming the fat. And with Rings of Power, I think there's a lot of fat to trim.

I think the difference is I rather rather not have trash and be left with nothing than try to pretend to be happy with trash.

Also I also know people that enjoyed the prequels and sequels (the normies if you will). From what they have said I think Amazon really fucked up with the lack of sensible time scale in the show, because if the normies have trouble following along you are depending on your characters to carry the interest. The characters in this have largely missed, and when you add on HotD is airing at the same time with Matt Smith having an amazing performance, can't help but laugh at the blunder by Amazon.

The prequels with the many, many issues it had at least had some great world building/expansion, that allowed for some of the most amazing games ever to be made. Perhaps Rings of Power will inspire some company to create an amazing Tolkien based game, I just don't get that feeling.

Also unless a fan edit removed Galadriel completely going to be hard to make this show good, she is just such an insufferable Karen.

[Triceron]

I think the difference is I rather rather not have trash and be left with nothing than try to pretend to be happy with trash.

But why?

It's not like just because we have one mediocre Amazon LOTR/Middle Earth project it means there's no room for other projects. We have others like War of the Rohirrim on the way in full production, which I'm hoping would be good. There's plenty of room for all projects.

Cuz like, I don't see RoP any differently than say Shadows of War. And let's face it, those games had trash story too, even if the gameplay and everything else was decent. I wouldn't say I'd rather not have those games just because the story was not great.

Also unless a fan edit removed Galadriel completely going to be hard to make this show good, she is just such an insufferable Karen.

That's the beauty of fan edits really. There's so many out there that you can pick and choose your poison. I've seen fan edits of prequels that remove Jar Jar and re-voiced the Trade Federation aliens. Or there are 'edits' that remove kid Anakin entirely, like the Machete Order, which suggests dropping Phantom Menace entirely out of watching both OT and prequel trilogies together.

I think Galadriel could be edited to be less of a Karen, but it'd take quite an effort considering the show doesn't really give a lot of room to work with.

Like, just humoring the idea, have Galadriel be shown finding Sauron's sigil, and cut out all the second in command dude's dialog to make it seem like the Elves are following her order. Remove the Snow Troll and mutiny scenes completely.

Cut to her at Lindon speaking to Elrond, somehow edit it to seem like she's going to continue her search. Remove all dialog about Valinor, make it seem like she's getting on the boat to further her search. As she's on the boat with her team, imply that they greet Elendil at sea, with it being implied he's escorting her to Numenor.

This would reframe her story being on a consistent story to search for Sauron, and puts her in a position in the sea that is between Numenor and Middle Earth rather than between Valinor and Numenor. And from there, focus on the parts that are all about the search for Sauron. Downplay the anti-Elf politics, keep anything that supports the idea that she is able to rally Numenorean support from the start. You can keep the 'Dey took er jerbs' scene, and it would now be in the context of the citizens of Numenor feeling threatened by Galadriel having arriving directly with her team of Elves. Have Miriel and Elendil in support of Galadriel. Edit the training scene to be more focused on her merely gaining respect of the Numenorean soldiers, less of her showing off. Remove the boat bombing. Have Miriel's speech punctuate the Numenor arc, transitioning them straight into the Southlands.

This would be a much smoother transition to her presence in the Southlands.

[bledgor]

But why?

It's not like just because we have one mediocre Amazon LOTR/Middle Earth project it means there's no room for other projects. We have others like War of the Rohirrim on the way in full production, which I'm hoping would be good. There's plenty of room for all projects.

Cuz like, I don't see RoP any differently than say Shadows of War. And let's face it, those games had trash story too, even if the gameplay and everything else was decent. I wouldn't say I'd rather not have those games just because the story was not great.

Well for one it makes other series less likely, though not impossible (likes you said with War of the Rohirrim), the key problem is I have no faith in any production from Amazon. They have largely proven to me they shouldn't be trusted to faithfully produce quality adaptation. Not sure about their originals, but I have been time and again disappointed in their adaptations. If someone else wants to make a Tolkien based work, I will give it a go, but Amazon has lost my faith (and doesn't deserve it with the way they treat their people).

I have played shadow or war, and while the game rightly has a pretty fucking awful story, as you admit I too enjoyed the game play. That is the difference though, with games if they have great game play you can find enjoyment in them, though I don't recall ever suggesting the game to anyone so glass half full. I mean how many games now a days are basically only multiplayer/have bare bones/crap stories, but have a massive player base because of how fun the games are to play?

With a show, I can't get that same enjoyment of "playing" them, I can only get my enjoyment from having a story presented to me. If they story is shit, it makes it neigh impossible to enjoy the show, especially when I really enjoy the source of the story, as you basically can only use the visuals/audio/music to try and keep me engaged (something the Tron: Legacy movie does, I barely remember the plot but god I love that soundtrack). So I guess we see this differently.

[Triceron]

Well for one it makes other series less likely, though not impossible (likes you said with War of the Rohirrim), the key problem is I have no faith in any production from Amazon. They have largely proven to me they shouldn't be trusted to faithfully produce quality adaptation.

That's quite presumptuous, considering they've also produced quality work like Critical Role, Invincible and The Boys, which are all adaptations in their own right.

With a show, I can't get that same enjoyment of "playing" them, I can only get my enjoyment from having a story presented to me. If they story is shit, it makes it neigh impossible to enjoy the show, especially when I really enjoy the source of the story, as you basically can only use the visuals/audio/music to try and keep me engaged (something the Tron: Legacy movie does, I barely remember the plot but god I love that soundtrack). So I guess we see this differently.

I guess I just have a higher tolerance for bullshit having gone through so much of it as a fan of so many properties that have since gone down the shitter *cough* WARCRAFT *cough*. I mean, enjoying what you can is all you can really do, and if not, just move on from it until something better comes along or someone comes around to make a sensible edit. I just don't see the point of denying its existence, because even like you say with Tron: Legacy, even though I agree the story is shit, I'd rather have the movie exist so I can enjoy the visuals and Daft Punk's amazing soundtrack, rather than not have it at all.

[bledgor]

That's quite presumptuous, considering they've also produced quality work like Critical Role, Invincible and The Boys, which are all adaptations in their own right.

The boys started great, but season 2 and 3 were meh to me, not amazing not bad. Invincible I haven't watched, and critical role I just can't get into.

The have also done The Wheel of Time which was utter garbage, and the later seasons of The Expanse (which while enjoyable were not as good as the first few seasons especially the final season, it had great potential but ended so flat it ruined the good it had).

That seems to be a trend with the series they have that start good/they inherit, as I really enjoyed the first season of Jack Ryan they did, but the 2nd season I can't even say was bad because after I watched it I completely forgot just about everything about it, it was utterly forgettable. Upload also had a good start but season 2 I got like 3 episodes in and didn't ever finish.

To be fair netflix does this a lot too, and I don't have high opinions of their work lately either (minus season 4 Stranger things). They had Altered Carbon which had an amazing season 1 but a bad season 2, also Witcher season 1 which was enjoyable, followed by a season 2 which was a large step down, or even The Umbrella Academy where 1 was great, 2 had its moments, and 3 was largely bleh (I really wanted more from the 5 and Klaus roadtrip).

I guess I just have a higher tolerance for bullshit having gone through so much of it as a fan of so many properties that have since gone down the shitter *cough* WARCRAFT *cough*. I mean, enjoying what you can is all you can really do, and if not, just move on from it until something better comes along or someone comes around to make a sensible edit. I just don't see the point of denying its existence, because even like you say with Tron: Legacy, even though I agree the story is shit, I'd rather have the movie exist so I can enjoy the visuals and Daft Punk's amazing soundtrack, rather than not have it at all.

Probably, I used to have a greater tolerance, but as I get older I just don't care to hold my nose anymore. I won't deny existence, I just don't want it to continue to exist, as it is soaking up the resources other shows could use, and denying potential new life from the source. Think of how much was invested into the Rings of Power, and how much could have been done with that half a billion they spent on this season alone. Then compare that to what we got, and it makes me pissed off.

As for the Tron: Legacy, as I said we at least got an amazing soundtrack out of that. With the Rings of power yeah sure there are some great screensavers from it, but the music while good is nothing I will put on in the background while I do things. For $500 million and Tolkien we should expect and deserve more. With Tron: legacy it had a smaller budget than the even the rights to Tolkien that amazon paid for, and it had much smaller expectations from the source material.

[InfiniteCharger]

In regards to the legendarium they were, right? As they were published while the rest were not. You not understanding is not the same as making a false statement. You also said a complete story doesn't matter so the appendices not being complete is irrelevant. As they are part of the Legendarium and published so they must be included in the entirety of his work. You keep making arbitrary rules for why something doesn't apply in one case but does in another.

Dude. We disagree OK? Stop repeating yourself. You are wrong.
There is no other way to say it that makes what you are saying correct.
The appendices by themselves separate from everything else were not intended to be the story of the 2nd age.
By saying that you are arguing that the rest of the legendarium doesn't matter, as in the Unfinished Tales, Silmarillion and so forth.
You are just repeating yourself and you just keep being wrong. And it does matter because he spent his live on all of those works.
So to argue that the appendices by themselves represent everything he intended for the 2nd age and prior is false.

You aren't winning anything because nothing you say is correct.

Not to mention that it doesn't matter what he intended because he is dead.
So it is a moot point. Obviously the Tolkien Estate doesn't care and allowed Amazon free reign.
The Tolkien Estate is not JRR Tolkien. Repeating yourself isn't changing that fact.

So just agree to disagree and move on.

[rhorle]

The appendices by themselves separate from everything else were not intended to be the story of the 2nd age.

It doesn't matter. They were published and their rights were sold by JRR Tolkien. You've established several times that means he was okay with them being adapted. You are the one that argued the rest of the legendarium doesn't matter as in the past you made a distinction between published and unpublished. Now that your argument includes published work they can be included. When it was my argument that included them you excluded them. You flip flop on what matters depending on the argument of the moment.

If it doesn't matter what he intended because he is dead then why are you still arguing that it matters? Isn't it strange how you keep contradicting the points you make? Including saying how much you want to stop discussing but apparently can't actually stop.

[Triceron]

It doesn't matter. They were published and their rights were sold by JRR Tolkien. You've established several times that means he was okay with them being adapted.

Didn't he sell the rights to help settle a tax bill?

How can anyone really say that he was okay with them being adapted? It seemed like a mix of him wanting to do it for the money, and he considered the book was unfilmable despite film companies paying out good money for its rights.

The nature of the sales of film rights at the time is the whole reason why the Tolkien Estate saw little profit from the PJ movies.

[DarkAmbient]

Anyone want to make any predictions for how the finale plays out? I reckon the three white priestesses fight Meteor Man and/or capture him. That gives Nori & Co a nice quest for S2. If he's not Gandalf we'll find out he's Istari this season. If he is Gandalf they might keep the reveal until S2. Right at the end Sauron's identity is revealed to the audience but not to anyone in the show. It's too early to out him to Galadriel etc. He's still got some deceiving to do. It's the big wow ending to tide us over until season 2. Of course Isildur will turn up. Don't really give a fuck what happens to Arondir and Bronwyn tbh.

[Syegfryed]

I feel it is a combo. Their dialog together is well written, and the actors are nailing it.

The sad part is that their dialogue is not well written, their lines and their plot is awful, but the actors were good enough to give personality to the characters.

Like, if you far back, you realize Elrond is a massive liar (by saying he was there for his friend, massive bullshit), and Durin had a massive flipflop from being mad red about Elrond ghosting him for 20 years, to being ok about Elrond lying to him and then crying because he would eventually die

And the dumb thing is how Elrond would probably live more than Durin's grand grand children, because even without the light they live that long, there is no sense in Durin cry about, the show didn't make any attempt to build that their relationship was that profound.

Or when he tries to say to king durin, that he should not trust other elves, but him he can trust because he is only hallf in name. And would trade the mithil for something equal rare or special, i don't remember, and say some food.

The give to me raw bit, totally unnecessary, but again, not the character/actor fault, dude is trying.

The only person i was liking in this show was Desa, despite not having a beard, but she went full Palpatine sith lord last episode, does not even look like the same character

[Triceron]

The sad part is that their dialogue is not well written, their lines and their plot is awful, but the actors were good enough to give personality to the characters.

Like, if you far back, you realize Elrond is a massive liar (by saying he was there for his friend, massive bullshit), and Durin had a massive flipflop from being mad red about Elrond ghosting him for 20 years, to being ok about Elrond lying to him and then crying because he would eventually die

And the dumb thing is how Elrond would probably live more than Durin's grand grand children, because even without the light they live that long, there is no sense in Durin cry about, the show didn't make any attempt to build that their relationship was that profound.

Or when he tries to say to king durin, that he should not trust other elves, but him he can trust because he is only hallf in name. And would trade the mithil for something equal rare or special, i don't remember, and say some food.

The give to me raw bit, totally unnecessary, but again, not the character/actor fault, dude is trying.

The only person i was liking in this show was Desa, despite not having a beard, but she went full Palpatine sith lord last episode, does not even look like the same character

Don't forget the scene with Disa talking to Durin and telling him that she's got Elrond on close watch. Then we see Elrond perching on a ledge hearing their whole conversation. And then you see his security escort come talk to him, but realize they're not a security escort at all but just some random patrol, and that he's not being watched at all... like, WTF Disa? You're the fucking queen, and you had one job.

[rhorle]

Nielsen ratings are out. Week 4 is 988 million minutes for US TV's only. I wish we could see non-TV and international numbers as well.

[exochaft]

Nielsen ratings are out. Week 4 is 988 million minutes for US TV's only. I wish we could see non-TV and international numbers as well.

Good luck with that. Even with those, we'll never know the real numbers because only Amazon has that. At this point, if Amazon did release numbers I don't think I'd believe them. We've already seen them play this game when saying they had X amount of viewers, but the fine print is that a viewer counted as someone who watched only a few minutes (not even the full episode)... for all we know half of those people turned off the episode 10 minutes in and never came back. There's been insider reports for a long while that regardless if RoP does well or flops, Amazon will publicly take the stance that it's the best TV content ever, however I wouldn't doubt if we start seeing some quiet action and changes taking place in the months following the finale.

Regardless, normies drive those kinds of numbers, and I have a sneaking suspicion there will be a large drop-off in RoP normie viewership around episode 3 and episode 5/6. I chose these spots because RoP is extremely boring for the first couple of episodes so you'll just lose people who won't return at around the 3rd episode, and around 5/6 the writing and plot take such a large nose-dive that even normies have started to say the show is dumb. Considering the high praise I see from some individuals about the finale of She-Hulk, I can safely assume that there will always be an audience for shows regardless of how trash they are... the question is what is the floor viewership for RoP?

Ultimately, I don't think RoP is going to have a lasting positive impact on people. If you talk about PJ's LotR trilogy, that's had an insanely large impact on people that has lasted two decades and still has people who enjoy watching it and sing its praises... because it was actually good content regardless if some of the lore aspects were adjusted. I don't see the same being true for RoP at all, as it comes off like the standard 'product for consumption only' that we get with Disney and Marvel (think of all the Marvel D+ series: are people even talking or thinking about them months afterwards in positive terms?). Many people now probably can't really remember what happened in specific episodes earlier in the seasons, and a couple months time after the RoP finale people will probably just forget about the show. I wouldn't doubt if Amazon constantly trickles season 2 news between now and the season 2 debut that's several years away, but it's still a long time to where people will just forget it even exists.

[Triceron]

Regardless, normies drive those kinds of numbers, and I have a sneaking suspicion there will be a large drop-off in RoP normie viewership around episode 3 and episode 5/6. I chose these spots because RoP is extremely boring for the first couple of episodes so you'll just lose people who won't return at around the 3rd episode, and around 5/6 the writing and plot take such a large nose-dive that even normies have started to say the show is dumb. Considering the high praise I see from some individuals about the finale of She-Hulk, I can safely assume that there will always be an audience for shows regardless of how trash they are... the question is what is the floor viewership for RoP?

I think you're looking at this the wrong way if you think normies will stop watching a show just because the writing and plot took a nose dive and the show is dumb. People may generally complain about a show, but rarely do they have the willpower to just give up on something they've already invested themselves in. And if they're actually Amazon subscribers, I mean, the show is already there and it's not like they'd go out of their way to avoid the rest of the series on principle that the show's getting dumber, that's an expectation of hardcore fans, not normies.

And considering Ep6 is utterly action packed and climactic and word of mouth would have easily spread around on this episode, the numbers aren't likely going to dip at the arguably best episode of the season so far (for normies especially). And 7 and 8 would be following through what they've already invested time into.

[rhorle]

Regardless, normies drive those kinds of numbers, and I have a sneaking suspicion there will be a large drop-off in RoP normie viewership around episode 3 and episode 5/6.

It seems silly to pick episode 3 when these numbers cover that episode and a few days of episode 4. The drop is only around 300 million mins and seems similar to House of the Dragon. These numbers only cover streaming for HotD as only HBOMax views are included. Cable television would make HotD drop off different.

Lets remember to that taste is subjective. She-hulk expertly crafted what they were going for (the satire/mockery) and is far from trash. That is why much of this talk is silly because people are constantly trying to project their opinion as the end all be all of the show. Bringing "normies" as evidence, or "all my friends", etc. It does nothing really. The TV and Film industry are full of shows that people hate on yet are still successful and get views. Like CW shows that people love to trash. Or HGTV. Or Soaps. Or reality TV.

Rings of Power won't suffer from people forgetting because it is Lord of the Rings. It has its own draw. And as a real life counter Avatar 2 comes out in December and the re-release of Avatar 1 recently earned 30 million at the box office 13 years after first release. All Amazon has to do is marketing and promote the previous season to draw people back in.