1. #6761
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    The appendices by themselves separate from everything else were not intended to be the story of the 2nd age.
    It doesn't matter. They were published and their rights were sold by JRR Tolkien. You've established several times that means he was okay with them being adapted. You are the one that argued the rest of the legendarium doesn't matter as in the past you made a distinction between published and unpublished. Now that your argument includes published work they can be included. When it was my argument that included them you excluded them. You flip flop on what matters depending on the argument of the moment.

    If it doesn't matter what he intended because he is dead then why are you still arguing that it matters? Isn't it strange how you keep contradicting the points you make? Including saying how much you want to stop discussing but apparently can't actually stop.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #6762
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It doesn't matter. They were published and their rights were sold by JRR Tolkien. You've established several times that means he was okay with them being adapted.
    Didn't he sell the rights to help settle a tax bill?

    How can anyone really say that he was okay with them being adapted? It seemed like a mix of him wanting to do it for the money, and he considered the book was unfilmable despite film companies paying out good money for its rights.

    The nature of the sales of film rights at the time is the whole reason why the Tolkien Estate saw little profit from the PJ movies.

  3. #6763
    Anyone want to make any predictions for how the finale plays out? I reckon the three white priestesses fight Meteor Man and/or capture him. That gives Nori & Co a nice quest for S2. If he's not Gandalf we'll find out he's Istari this season. If he is Gandalf they might keep the reveal until S2. Right at the end Sauron's identity is revealed to the audience but not to anyone in the show. It's too early to out him to Galadriel etc. He's still got some deceiving to do. It's the big wow ending to tide us over until season 2. Of course Isildur will turn up. Don't really give a fuck what happens to Arondir and Bronwyn tbh.

  4. #6764
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    I feel it is a combo. Their dialog together is well written, and the actors are nailing it.
    The sad part is that their dialogue is not well written, their lines and their plot is awful, but the actors were good enough to give personality to the characters.

    Like, if you far back, you realize Elrond is a massive liar (by saying he was there for his friend, massive bullshit), and Durin had a massive flipflop from being mad red about Elrond ghosting him for 20 years, to being ok about Elrond lying to him and then crying because he would eventually die

    And the dumb thing is how Elrond would probably live more than Durin's grand grand children, because even without the light they live that long, there is no sense in Durin cry about, the show didn't make any attempt to build that their relationship was that profound.

    Or when he tries to say to king durin, that he should not trust other elves, but him he can trust because he is only hallf in name. And would trade the mithil for something equal rare or special, i don't remember, and say some food.

    The give to me raw bit, totally unnecessary, but again, not the character/actor fault, dude is trying.

    The only person i was liking in this show was Desa, despite not having a beard, but she went full Palpatine sith lord last episode, does not even look like the same character

  5. #6765
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    The sad part is that their dialogue is not well written, their lines and their plot is awful, but the actors were good enough to give personality to the characters.

    Like, if you far back, you realize Elrond is a massive liar (by saying he was there for his friend, massive bullshit), and Durin had a massive flipflop from being mad red about Elrond ghosting him for 20 years, to being ok about Elrond lying to him and then crying because he would eventually die

    And the dumb thing is how Elrond would probably live more than Durin's grand grand children, because even without the light they live that long, there is no sense in Durin cry about, the show didn't make any attempt to build that their relationship was that profound.

    Or when he tries to say to king durin, that he should not trust other elves, but him he can trust because he is only hallf in name. And would trade the mithil for something equal rare or special, i don't remember, and say some food.

    The give to me raw bit, totally unnecessary, but again, not the character/actor fault, dude is trying.

    The only person i was liking in this show was Desa, despite not having a beard, but she went full Palpatine sith lord last episode, does not even look like the same character
    Don't forget the scene with Disa talking to Durin and telling him that she's got Elrond on close watch. Then we see Elrond perching on a ledge hearing their whole conversation. And then you see his security escort come talk to him, but realize they're not a security escort at all but just some random patrol, and that he's not being watched at all... like, WTF Disa? You're the fucking queen, and you had one job.

  6. #6766
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Nielsen ratings are out. Week 4 is 988 million minutes for US TV's only. I wish we could see non-TV and international numbers as well.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  7. #6767
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Nielsen ratings are out. Week 4 is 988 million minutes for US TV's only. I wish we could see non-TV and international numbers as well.
    Good luck with that. Even with those, we'll never know the real numbers because only Amazon has that. At this point, if Amazon did release numbers I don't think I'd believe them. We've already seen them play this game when saying they had X amount of viewers, but the fine print is that a viewer counted as someone who watched only a few minutes (not even the full episode)... for all we know half of those people turned off the episode 10 minutes in and never came back. There's been insider reports for a long while that regardless if RoP does well or flops, Amazon will publicly take the stance that it's the best TV content ever, however I wouldn't doubt if we start seeing some quiet action and changes taking place in the months following the finale.

    Regardless, normies drive those kinds of numbers, and I have a sneaking suspicion there will be a large drop-off in RoP normie viewership around episode 3 and episode 5/6. I chose these spots because RoP is extremely boring for the first couple of episodes so you'll just lose people who won't return at around the 3rd episode, and around 5/6 the writing and plot take such a large nose-dive that even normies have started to say the show is dumb. Considering the high praise I see from some individuals about the finale of She-Hulk, I can safely assume that there will always be an audience for shows regardless of how trash they are... the question is what is the floor viewership for RoP?

    Ultimately, I don't think RoP is going to have a lasting positive impact on people. If you talk about PJ's LotR trilogy, that's had an insanely large impact on people that has lasted two decades and still has people who enjoy watching it and sing its praises... because it was actually good content regardless if some of the lore aspects were adjusted. I don't see the same being true for RoP at all, as it comes off like the standard 'product for consumption only' that we get with Disney and Marvel (think of all the Marvel D+ series: are people even talking or thinking about them months afterwards in positive terms?). Many people now probably can't really remember what happened in specific episodes earlier in the seasons, and a couple months time after the RoP finale people will probably just forget about the show. I wouldn't doubt if Amazon constantly trickles season 2 news between now and the season 2 debut that's several years away, but it's still a long time to where people will just forget it even exists.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2022-10-14 at 12:25 AM.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  8. #6768
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Regardless, normies drive those kinds of numbers, and I have a sneaking suspicion there will be a large drop-off in RoP normie viewership around episode 3 and episode 5/6. I chose these spots because RoP is extremely boring for the first couple of episodes so you'll just lose people who won't return at around the 3rd episode, and around 5/6 the writing and plot take such a large nose-dive that even normies have started to say the show is dumb. Considering the high praise I see from some individuals about the finale of She-Hulk, I can safely assume that there will always be an audience for shows regardless of how trash they are... the question is what is the floor viewership for RoP?
    I think you're looking at this the wrong way if you think normies will stop watching a show just because the writing and plot took a nose dive and the show is dumb. People may generally complain about a show, but rarely do they have the willpower to just give up on something they've already invested themselves in. And if they're actually Amazon subscribers, I mean, the show is already there and it's not like they'd go out of their way to avoid the rest of the series on principle that the show's getting dumber, that's an expectation of hardcore fans, not normies.

    And considering Ep6 is utterly action packed and climactic and word of mouth would have easily spread around on this episode, the numbers aren't likely going to dip at the arguably best episode of the season so far (for normies especially). And 7 and 8 would be following through what they've already invested time into.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-14 at 12:50 AM.

  9. #6769
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Regardless, normies drive those kinds of numbers, and I have a sneaking suspicion there will be a large drop-off in RoP normie viewership around episode 3 and episode 5/6.
    It seems silly to pick episode 3 when these numbers cover that episode and a few days of episode 4. The drop is only around 300 million mins and seems similar to House of the Dragon. These numbers only cover streaming for HotD as only HBOMax views are included. Cable television would make HotD drop off different.

    Lets remember to that taste is subjective. She-hulk expertly crafted what they were going for (the satire/mockery) and is far from trash. That is why much of this talk is silly because people are constantly trying to project their opinion as the end all be all of the show. Bringing "normies" as evidence, or "all my friends", etc. It does nothing really. The TV and Film industry are full of shows that people hate on yet are still successful and get views. Like CW shows that people love to trash. Or HGTV. Or Soaps. Or reality TV.

    Rings of Power won't suffer from people forgetting because it is Lord of the Rings. It has its own draw. And as a real life counter Avatar 2 comes out in December and the re-release of Avatar 1 recently earned 30 million at the box office 13 years after first release. All Amazon has to do is marketing and promote the previous season to draw people back in.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-10-14 at 02:15 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  10. #6770
    Meteor man is gandalf rofl

    Not surprised
    Last edited by Unforgivenn; 2022-10-14 at 04:47 AM.

  11. #6771
    RIP Annatar.

    I guess they really had to make up their own thing cuz they don't have any rights to Silmarillion for that.

    And man, so many lines lifted straight from LOTR...
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-14 at 05:19 AM.

  12. #6772
    I bailed on LotR, House of the Dragon and Andor. Boring. I like Attorney Woo, The Patient and She-Hulk.

  13. #6773
    The Lightbringer Lora's Avatar
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    i cant believe i was fucking right about halbrand. fucking called it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uggorthaholy View Post
    Thanks but no thanks, Lora, for making me question everything in existence forever.

  14. #6774
    500 million dollar budget for this. 281 million for the whole OG Trilogy.

    How times change.

    Sauron influences them to make shit. Elves are like: yeah no, we won't make 2, let's make 3 instead. That will mess with his plans. Thousands of years of wisdom.

  15. #6775
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That's quite presumptuous, considering they've also produced quality work like Critical Role, Invincible and The Boys, which are all adaptations in their own right.
    Yep, I have only seen two of those, but they were excellent so I am not blaming amazon for the overall quality of the show. They just gave those showrunners all the money in the world and probably expected them to do good with it. Sadly that is just not what happened.

    I am still not sure where all that money went. Better shows have produced entire seasons for the price of a single episode of this one. It isn't the actors, who are largely unknown newbies. So did they blow millions on costume, CGI and sets? Feels... unrealistic. I would not be surprised if in the future we hear of a big scandal of one of the showrunners embezzling some of the money, or them paying themselves an insane wage.

    In the end I am not even blaming the actors. They usually just do what they can with the directions they are given. Maybe Galadriel really was told to look like she was constipated for 6 episodes straight (probably not).

    Nah, the blame for this mess lies with the writers and showrunners. They had the audacity to take Tolkiens world and use it to pander to the Twitter Justice Warriors without ever worrying about writing a good plot, fleshing out characters or making them engaging even.

    As a big fan of female protagonists I am simply dumbfounded how bad this take on Galadriel is. There are so many good female characters in the history of series and movies that they could have used as an inspiration and yet... this is what happened.

    If you wanted her to be a badass with a more complex character under the surface, take Buffy Summers for example. Seven seasons of that show portray a woman that is strong but still engaging because she went through tons of hardship, much of which is simply "being human", dealing with emotional baggage, love, friendship and all of that.

    Galadriel is a cardbox cutout in comparison. She seems to be constantly pissed at everyone around her and that is the only emotion she seems capable of. She talks about her husband as if he barely matters to her at all, she tells people to be humble while being arrogance personified... and different from a character like Buffy who does get the appropriate response when she behaves like a bitch, Galadriel is just proven right and everyone loves her for her terrible character.

    Then we have the Proto-Hobbits. Oh my god. They are the worst. They sing loudly about not leaving people behind while leaving people behind if the slightest problem arrises and for no reason. They aren't being pursued, they are in no danger, they just travel because they live like locusts...
    It is such a horrible irony and self-delusion, but instead of calling them out for it, the show doesn't even seem to be aware of what it is portraying here. There should be a cost for being this terrible, but all we had is some wagons burning.

    The most relatable character I would say is Adar. He at least cares about his people and at the end of the day, he was a victim. When Galadriel leaned over him and claimed how she would murder all his people and only then kill him so he would suffer as much as possible I really have no idea how I am supposed to relate to her. It's not like he chose to be tortured by Morgoth...

  16. #6776
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Internet is on fire about this, didn't watch yet, but people can't stop posting about it, but funny, not in a good way, this show sure will be remembered, as one of the most clusterfucks ever.

    Nota gonna talk abou Gandalf and Sauron reveal, because it was known the moment they appear, perfect opportunity to make Saruman, but nah.

    And they even come up with Galadriel as the one with the idea to make 3, like fuck, sure she is the protagonist, but she needs to take credit for nearly everything? jesus.


    And at least the sociopath hobbit died

  17. #6777
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    Characters like Galadrial in this show just come off as clearly obvious self-inserts of insecure Twitter feminists who think that being a toxic heel is what makes women strong. It's like they are over compensating for something that they lack, kind of like when men do it. Just because we like to dickwave, doesn't mean women should do that. And most men don't even do that anyway and it certainly isn't entertaining when we do it, it is always cringe.

  18. #6778
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Episode 8 review

    My first take away from this show now season one is over: It was all Galadriel's fault, remember that the next time you all watch or read Lord of the Rings. Also this was one of the weakest episodes. the finale, one of the weaker episodes. Its so sad. Despite my already existing issues with the show that I will not repeat, this had many more to add, too many member berry lines taken from the books and movies, the episode felt rushed and slow at the same time, basically an episode that was a over one hour epilogue.

    the creation of the rings itself was very rushed, That could have been the point of he whole show. Also the Slim Shady cultists, we knew nothing about them, I hoped we'd find out more about them, like why they have magic, who are they, where they came from. We got their plan, obviously they were to find Sauron which they were mistaken, but they were killed off and now assuming that's it. What a waste, i actually was interested in learning more about these as the show went on, but nope, they were there and now they are gone, literally everything around this Harfoot storyline could have been scrapped and you wouldn't have missed anything.

    Also what's up with this show and not betraying mourning? does this show not wan to dwell on death? Sadoc Burrows died and everyone kinda gets over it. The lack of emotional attachment in this show is non existent.

    The reveals were predictable, I was hoping they'd serve us, but it was pretty much who everyone predicted, and that's fine, i have no issue with predictability, but they didn't really make up for it being throwing a curve ball in there.

    This episode left a bitter taste in my mouth, it really did. Especially as I have been very defensive about the show... I may not have loved it, but I never hated it for the most part, I thought at best the show was just 'ok', but this episode by the end had me defeated.

    I really did love this shot though.


    Like the show has some really good cinematography, there is effort there, but my god its being weighed down by alot of problems.

    3/10

    Past reviews.
    Episode 1: 6/10
    Episode 2: 7/10

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53897065
    Episode 3: 4/10
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53904070
    Episode 4: 6/10
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53910372
    Episode 5: 5/10
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53916644
    Episode 6: 7/10
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53923548
    Episode 7: 6/10
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53930495


    EDIT: Additional Season review will be out later this week. I gotta reassess my scores and then come up with an overall score.
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-10-14 at 10:12 AM.
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  19. #6779
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It doesn't matter. They were published and their rights were sold by JRR Tolkien. You've established several times that means he was okay with them being adapted. You are the one that argued the rest of the legendarium doesn't matter as in the past you made a distinction between published and unpublished. Now that your argument includes published work they can be included. When it was my argument that included them you excluded them. You flip flop on what matters depending on the argument of the moment.

    If it doesn't matter what he intended because he is dead then why are you still arguing that it matters? Isn't it strange how you keep contradicting the points you make? Including saying how much you want to stop discussing but apparently can't actually stop.
    Dude. We already went over the fact that he sold the rights for 2 books. You are just retreading and backtracking. Tolkien wrote those two books as part 1 and 2 of a continuing story. That is simply a fact no matter how you keep claiming they were piecemeal. They are not piecemeal standalone stories. The 2nd age was intended to be part of that same story and continuity and not something separate or piecemeal. These are simple facts.

    The fact that it doesn't matter means that you sitting here defending this show as if it depends on what Tolkien wanted is illogical. What is happening with this show has absolutely nothing to do with what Tolkien wanted and you arguing for pages that it does is is the issue. It is almost as if you are trying to argue that somehow and someway this show represents what Tolkien wanted, which is absurd.

  20. #6780
    ‘The Rings Of Power’ Season 1 Finale Recap And Review: A Dreadful Mess

    The Rings Of Power has wrapped up its first season and all I can say is . . . shame on everyone who had a hand in this travesty.

    I’ve never seen an adaptation of a major work so badly abused, so fundamentally altered or so disrespectfully handled as the creators of The Rings Of Power have treated The Lord Of The Rings. Tolkien’s creation barely shines through the dreck.

    I gave this show a chance. I went in with low expectations and for a moment was charmed by what I saw, but quickly the cracks began to show in the story and its heroes. Of Mithril, this show is most certainly not crafted.

    Nearly everything that could have gone wrong has done so. Even my worst fears about this show’s quality could not match what we were actually given.

    But it’s comforting to know that the Rings Of Power and Mordor were all created within about a ten-day span! Nothing says epic fantasy like condensing thousands of years into a week and a half.

    That’s quality writing, folks.

    We could have had an entire season devoted to the actual forging of the rings. To Annatar/Halbrand’s deception. To the elves and their vanity. We could have waited to tell the story of Numenor until later—a story of the quest to cheat death, and the pride that cometh before the fall. So many ways this show could have taken what Tolkien actually wrote and fleshed it out into a TV series worthy of the source material. Ironically, it seems pride has been the downfall of Amazon’s Lord Of The Rings as well.

    They added too much and cut too much when they had a perfectly good story to flesh out that Amazon spent hundreds of millions of dollars to purchase. Why not tell that expensive tale? Why make this other one up? I don’t understand.

    What an absolute disaster.

    And that's all folks...

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