Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

Dude. We already went over the fact that he sold the rights for 2 books.

So then an adaptation of the appendices from one of those books is covered. They were piecemeal from the whole legendarium. As in two of four things published by him prior to his death. If the second age was intended to be part of the same story then that implies he is okay with second age stuff being adapted even if he didn't publish second age stuff prior to his death. As he sold the rights to some of his story yet intended it to be a whole. You again prove that you are wrong lmao.

Of course the story of this show isn't canon. I'm not sure why you are now bringing that invention of yours back into this discussion. The question of discussion is adaptations and if Tolkien wanted adaptations.

[Trollhammer]

Who would have thought Amazon would solve the energy crisis harnessing the energy created from Tolkien spinning in his grave..

[InfiniteCharger]

So then an adaptation of the appendices from one of those books is covered. They were piecemeal from the whole legendarium. As in two of four things published by him prior to his death. If the second age was intended to be part of the same story then that implies he is okay with second age stuff being adapted even if he didn't publish second age stuff prior to his death. As he sold the rights to some of his story yet intended it to be a whole. You again prove that you are wrong lmao.

Of course the story of this show isn't canon. I'm not sure why you are now bringing that invention of yours back into this discussion. The question of discussion is adaptations and if Tolkien wanted adaptations.

Tolkien never sold rights to the appendices piecemeal. This was a "loophole" that the Tolkien Estate came up with to justify the idea of selling the rights to a television series based on them. You keep trying to argue this has something to do with what Tolkien intended when it does not. Everything about this series is bound up by legal rights between Warner Brothers, the Saul Zaence Company (now Embracer Company), the Tolkien Estate and Amazon. And because of that, this series only has limited rights to Tolkien's works, which means they are making up alternative stories and changes because of it. Therefore, because of all those rights issues, we are no longer talking about what Tolkien sold which were rights to two complete books, not parts of a book or parts of a story. You just do not accept the reality that this series is a totally made up story that only exists because the Tolkien Estate wanted to find a way to make some money off the IP and has absolutely nothing to do with JRR Tolkien and what he wanted. If that was true, then the Tolkien Estate would not have needed to find a loophole to sell these rights and Amazon could have just made a TV series without buying them. But they couldn't because what Tolkien sold were film rights and television series less than 8 episodes. Those rights did not include television series covering multiple seasons (or at least more than 8 episodes) were never included in those original rights. Therefore, Tolkien never literally sold rights to make a multiple season television series for any age from the universe of lord of the rings based on anything he wrote. So you are just wrong and should just accept that and give it up. This isn't a theoretical issue, it is a legal issue and not a "what Tolkien wanted" issue.

And if you are defending the existence of the series, then why are you constantly running back to Tolkien when he is long dead? By definition, defending this as an "adaptation" means you literally are arguing they have the right to do their own thing, but at the same time you keep going back to Tolkien. Why? By being its own thing, that literally means they no longer are bound to Tolkien and therefore should stand on their own merits based on the decisions they made for this show. But you keep trying to include Tolkien into this when Tolkien has nothing to do with this series. He is dead and whatever rights he sold have been transferred numerous times. The Tolkien Estate doesn't even have control over those rights which is why they came up with this idea to use the appendices to justify a multi season television series, because they got money directly from those rights. This absolutely in no way reflects anything to do with what Tolkien wanted when he sold the rights to his books for film adaptations. Notice that when people talk of the films, they call them the Peter Jackson films, because he was the main one behind getting those films made. And therefore he gets the credit or blame when those films succeed or fail. Yet here, you refuse to admit that this series is its own thing and succeeds or fails on its own merits, not because of Tolkien.

[rhorle]

Tolkien never sold rights to the appendices piecemeal.

I never said he did. He published his legendarium in pieces even though the entire thing is to be taken as a whole. The rights to appendicies would have been sold with the rights of the books they appear in. Hence why they would be fine to be adapted because he sold those rights so people could make adaptations. I have never once claimed that Rings of Power is canon. I'm not sure what delusion you operating under to once again start claiming that. Stop. Discuss only what I say and not what you invent as a strawman.

Amazon couldn't have made the story without buying rights. This shows that you have a fundamental lack of understanding on this topic and that you will ignore and argue anything in order to remain right in your own mind. You are the one that keeps using Tolkien to say why the Adaptation never would have been. I've used to Tolkien to show where you are wrong and that he was fine with adaptations. Again you ignore things just so you can remain right because you say Tolkien's intent when he sold rights has nothing to do with discussing if he would be fine with adaptations of his work. That is the core of the issue. Lmao.

Also Peter Jackson wasn't the main person behind getting those films made. He was the director. New Line Cinema (now part of Warner Brothers) and the Tolkien estate were the main people behind getting those films made. You can't even get the facts straight about that.

[InfiniteCharger]

Amazon couldn't have made the story without buying rights.

And that is the crux of the issue. They did not buy those rights from Tolkien they bought them from the Tolkien estate 5 years ago. Therefore they were never part of the rights originally sold by Tolkien otherwise, the Tolkien Estate would not have been able to sell them. And it was a loophole to begin with based on various details such as the distinction between film and tv and a story set in the 2nd age vs the 3rd age. That is the only time "piecemeal" comes into this, which has absolutely nothing to do with the rights to what Tolkien originally sold as he sold the rights to two complete books, not just a 'piece' of a book. So stop dancing around that fact.

Period.

So you can keep playing this game all you want, but those rights have absolutely nothing do with Tolkien, which you just confirmed.

So lets just end this discussion finally.

[Skulltaker]

Also Peter Jackson wasn't the main person behind getting those films made. He was the director. New Line Cinema (now part of Warner Brothers) and the Tolkien estate were the main people behind getting those films made. You can't even get the facts straight about that.

Ahm, no. That's just plain wrong. Jackson and Fran Walsh played around with an idea for an original IP fantasy epic in 95, but all their drafts turned out to be close to Tolkiens work. They then looked into the rights and approached Miramax and Harvey Weinstein. Their original draft was a concept for a trilogy, one movie covering The Hobbit, and two movies covering TLOTR. For budget reasons Weinstein wanted to reduce the number of movies and threatened to replace Jackson with, among others, Tarrantino, but Jackson stood his ground, approached New Line, who insisted on a proper LOTR trilogy.

Jackson was, very much, key into getting the movies made. He wasn't the only person, but he was there long befor New Line came into the picture.

[rhorle]

And that is the crux of the issue. They did not buy those rights from Tolkien they bought them from the Tolkien estate 5 years ago.

No one has ever claimed that the rights Amazon bought came directly from JRR Tolkien. Stop creating arguments in your head just because it is easier for you to defeat then the truth. The rights are complicated. Did you know that MGM had the rights to publish The Hobbit? As those were not sold to the Saul Zaentz Company but retained by UA? Rights also sometimes revert as New Line Cinema was going to have their rights to The Hobbit revert in 2010.

We were discussing if an adaptation would have been allowed. You've argued for pages that Tolkien was against adaptations and the second age never would have been approved. I've argued the opposite. That Tolkien was fine with adaptations and the second age wouldn't be an exception. Piecemeal comes into this because he didn't publish his entire legendarium yet it is to be taken as a whole. Hence it being published in 4 pieces. I never once said JRR sold the rights to a piece of a book. Once again you show that you need to invent delusions because you can't handle being wrong. Lmao.

- - - Updated - - -

Ahm, no. That's just plain wrong. Jackson and Fran Walsh played around with an idea for an original IP fantasy epic in 95

Right. For The Hobbit. New Line Cinema acquired the rights before Mr. Weinstein could and thus Peter Jackson went to work for them on LotR. Eventually MGM, who had the rights from UA, teemed up with New Line and Mr. Jackson to make The Hobbit movies. It was New Line Cinema that decided to go with Mr. Jackson. They were the ones behind developing LotR at the time and could have picked anyone.

[Kumorii]

Well, 5 episodes wasted on very little development. Which obviously means the finale has to be cramped and rushed af.
Called the final events in essence, didn't expect it to go so quick though.

I'm lost about the entire Sauron reveal as well. Galadriel who couldn't figure out to flip a mark 90 degrees to see it's a location on a map suddenly becomes a detective when hearing the "Over flesh" comment. Really confused about the entire talk Sauron and Galadriel had between all different times and locations. Not sure what they tried to convey by jumping through all those places. I assume to show he have manipulated her since she was a kid with Finrod? Which I don't see the point of. Why would Sauron want to manipulate Galadriel to be his queen over thousands of years?
Her entire "shock" about how he manipulated him also were kind of odd...because looking back he never really did. But doing a reveal like this is supposed to make it "click" about previous encounters and events, but it's mostly Galadriel doing things herself.
If Sauron have these powers, or can even look into her past, to take the form of Finrod in her mind to try and convince her of this. He should've be able to see her past when she met Elrond, so not sure if her question to determine if Elrond is who he is is that good

The three rings is also problematic. Galadriel is clearly worried about them because it was Sauron leading the forging. Which is an understandable fear without needing to have much knowledge in powerful rings. However, the solution was apparently not to stop making them, but to make a third ring of the same material?
"One will always corrupt, two will divide. But three will be balanced." - What does this even mean? Why did Galadriel have this wisdom whatever it means?
Celebrimbor didn't seem to be contributing to the forging at all really. Mostly going "oh shit, you are right".

Gil-Galad being against forging the crown because they are out of time seemed silly. He didn't even give a proposal on what to do instead. Even if you are out of time or too late, better to try it than just "nah, fuck it". I assumed he would say something in the likes of they need the mithril from the dwarfs in the right quantity and maybe even by force. Maybe I zoned out...

So now we have three elven rings that are clearly corrupted by Sauron and yet they will be used by them?... Ok, I guess.
I think it would be better if Sauron wasn't revealed to the elves of who he is. They could still reveal that to the viewers for the final EPIC reveal as the season finale. Forge three rings to begin with and they use them. Then have the 16 be forged by Sauron himself to give to the men and dwarfs. Think it would be better while also rewriting it because that's what they want to do. That way they have a reason why the elven rings aren't AS corrupted as the other 16 because it has the touch from Valinor. While the other 16 are just pure Sauron and thus they fall under his dominion.

It was so sad when Galadriel had to sacrifice her dagger though... real sad.
Moving on.


Gandalf is Gandalf, shocking twist I know. They even take the follow your nose line from PJ movies. They seem to take more inspiration from those movies than the books.
Even his line about shadows just made me think of the Balrog fight.

Anyway, cultists says "It's the other one" when it's revealed who he really is. So I guess there were 2 meteors happening, which is fine. Question I have though is why they were so certain he was Sauron? If they knew there were 2 of them then maybe they want to confirm who he is before spouting their plans to a stranger than can be "the other one"?.

Surprised they actually killed off a sort of main character. Then again considering the memorial he got from the harfoot gang of 2 lines, I guess he was a side/minor character.
Don't really have much to say about the Harfoots. It's really just the Stranger and I didn't mind a lot of what happened except the overall quality of how things plays out.



The choice of having Miriel have her eyes open even when she is blind and her eyes look perfectly fine is also odd to me. Especially when you can see her eyes move across the room focusing on things off camera in some scenes.... Have them closed at least or just wear the blindfold like she does in some other shots. It's such a minor thing but why is it done this way? That question bugs me more so than that it's done this way.


Hamfisted, forced and rushed is how I would summarize this episode.

[Xath]

Didn’t you post about how if some one skipped some parts of the novels they can’t be real Tolkien fans and shouldn’t be taken seriously in any thing they say?

He said he didn't finish the books lol not even sil lotr specifically

[Skulltaker]

Right. For The Hobbit. New Line Cinema acquired the rights before Mr. Weinstein could and thus Peter Jackson went to work for them on LotR. Eventually MGM, who had the rights from UA, teemed up with New Line and Mr. Jackson to make The Hobbit movies. It was New Line Cinema that decided to go with Mr. Jackson. They were the ones behind developing LotR at the time and could have picked anyone.

Nope. Jackson had the rights for LOTR from Zaentz, acquired through Weinstein/Miramax. At this point, and before New Line was even in the picture, they cut the Hobbit material from the project and set their target as two LOTR movies. It wasn't until after Miramax saw that New Line was approached by Jackson. He got into a room with New Line CEO Bob Shaye, he accepted the project. Until this point, New Line had nothing to do with it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

He said he didn't finish the books lol not even sil lotr specifically

Yes skipped parts of volume 2 I believe, you then jumped into full gate keep mode just like jonnysensible maligned.

[rhorle]

Nope. Jackson had the rights for LOTR from Zaentz, acquired through Weinstein/Miramax.

No. Jackson didn't have the rights. Miramax was struggling to get a deal for the rights done because of past history between Mr. Zaentz and Mr. Weinstein. It wasn't something Jackson was a part of or "owner" of. He was just the talent making the movie and popular enough at the time that Miramax wanted to keep him "locked down" to their company. They may have agreed upon some rights with SZC but the project was already falling apart because of the $75 million budget cap imposed by Miramax. They allowed Mr. Jackson to look for another studio as long as that studio would cover all costs on the project so far. That is when NLC got involved and acquired the rights they needed from SZC.

[Xath]

Yes skipped parts of volume 2 I believe, you then jumped into full gate keep mode just like jonnysensible maligned.

If you literally skip finishing an author's main work you aren't a fan that isn't gate keeping it's logic. It's like saying I'm such a big Sherlock Holmes fan I read the first 10 pages of sign of four and the last 15 of hound. It's moronic much like that attempt at a finale.

[Skulltaker]

No. Jackson didn't have the rights. Miramax was struggling to get a deal for the rights done because of past history between Mr. Zaentz and Mr. Weinstein. It wasn't something Jackson was a part of or "owner" of. He was just the talent making the movie and popular enough at the time that Miramax wanted to keep him "locked down" to their company. They may have agreed upon some rights with SZC but the project was already falling apart because of the $75 million budget cap imposed by Miramax. They allowed Mr. Jackson to look for another studio as long as that studio would cover all costs on the project so far. That is when NLC got involved and acquired the rights they needed from SZC.

Several key details of what you say here kind of contradict what was said by Jackson in an interview, but lets just go with it, anyway.

So, Jackson went to New Line, convinced them to pick up the costs, which makes him the driving factor behind the movies being made. For sure not the only one, and he couldn't have done it without other peoples money, but still, he was what brought it all together. New Line still didn't have the rights, and Jackson wasn't picked up by them as 'merely a director', contradictory to what you originally claimed.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

If you literally skip finishing an author's main work you aren't a fan that isn't gate keeping it's logic. It's like saying I'm such a big Sherlock Holmes fan I read the first 10 pages of sign of four and the last 15 of hound. It's moronic much like that attempt at a finale.

It is by definition gate keeping to think you define where one being a fan starts and ends.

[rhorle]

So, Jackson went to New Line, convinced them to pick up the costs, which makes him the driving factor behind the movies being made. For sure not the only one, and he couldn't have done it without other peoples money, but still, he was what brought it all together. New Line still didn't have the rights, and Jackson wasn't picked up by them as 'merely a director', contradictory to what you originally claimed.

Considering it was New Line Cinema that pushed for the script to be grander and include things Miramax forced to be removed it indicates that they were the driving force. They were looking to do the same thing Amazon was. Elevate the studio to a new level in the industry.

https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-...ions-weinstein
New Line Cinema’s Bob Shaye and Michael De Luca had the vision to read those same scripts and ask for all of the texture and more. They took a gamble on the world itself, and their attitude from the start was the opposite of his. They recognized that these films were a journey and that the journey needed room to breathe. They were excited by the larger world suggested by the scripts, and when they asked questions, much of what they asked about was material that Jackson and Walsh had to cut to make Weinstein happy. Shaye had enjoyed working with Jackson on the proposed Nightmare on Elm Street movie, and one of the reasons they didn’t make it was because Jackson’s vision was too expensive. This time, that was what they liked about it. They were trying to make the jump to a different level as a studio, and Jackson’s dare came at the exact right time.

Not only did Shaye and De Luca say that they were willing to commit to the entire journey — but they wanted to do it the right way. They immediately committed to three films, asking Jackson and Walsh to not only put back everything they cut but to expand on it, using all of that work they’d done to really bring the world to life. They gave Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens permission to dream even bigger.

[Skulltaker]

Considering it was New Line Cinema that pushed for the script to be grander and include things Miramax forced to be removed it indicates that they were the driving force. They were looking to do the same thing Amazon was. Elevate the studio to a new level in the industry.

That's nice, but it was still Peter Jackson who got it all rolling, who reached out to New Line, who talked to them and sold the product to them, got them to commit. Or, as you'd say, the driving force, not the simply tacked-on director you made him out to be. Get your facts straight.

I mean, it's literally in the article you quoted.

[Gumble]

I guess I just have a higher tolerance for bullshit having gone through so much of it as a fan of so many properties that have since gone down the shitter *cough* WARCRAFT *cough*.

I had a higher tolerance for trying to turn books into shows/movies, but its been worn away.

I have 5 favorite authors, and 4 of them have all been disgraced by this:

Terry Brooks
Terry Goodkind
Robert Jordan
Anne Rice
Melanie Rawn

I was disappointed in Legend of the Seeker by a horrible main actor who looked and acted nothing like Richard and having the whole plot given away in the first 10 minutes.

I endured the Shannara Chronicles and chaulked it up to "well don't let MTV try to make something good".

I gave Wheel of Time every opportunity to make me like it and it spat on the author and the story.

Anne Rice was protected for awhile (I even liked Aaliyah, OMG RACE CHANGE, because she really threw herself into that character.... as badly as that movie mangled the story), and hopefully this abomination of a boring show will fade away and they can stop trying to suck blood from her corpse.

The only one I have left is Melanie Rawn. Maybe the face that she can't finish a series will hold them off from every adapating the Dragon Prince series until Hollyweird gets some writers and directors who have actually accomplished anything (and not just ones who JJ Abrams was friends with)

As this show stands, I'm sorry for you LOTR fans, the show was boring, bland and predictable. The whole story was guessed by episode 1 and they haven't deviated or had characters grow in any way. Everyone is still exactly who they were, and nothing has happened.

You deserved better.

[potis]

I dont care much about canon, or who wrote what, rolling eyes at stupid moments of any series, good or bad is what i do, it had good cinematography so i kept at it.

But the "I am good!" got me hurting inside, did they really have to do that scene cause the audience is fucking braindead and would get confused as to who is good and who is bad

I literally felt physically hurt from that scene.

[Shadowferal]

I mean, it's literally in the article you quoted.

Just like he never reads the books, he never reads his own articles. He clearly showed that in the wot thread.