Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Gumble]

I hate you. Because I never knew they desecrated the Sword of Truth. Now, I know

The Mord-Sith were "ok".... the rest.... bleh

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I too was disappointed with the Shannara adaptation. IMO if a fantasy series can't be done with the same level of care as Jackson's LotR trilogy or Harry Potter (at minimum) then they should try doing it as an anime first. If that succeeds, then maybe move on to live action.

Otherland
Memory, Sorrow & Thorn
Dragonlance
Thomas Covenant Chronicles

Oh, you have no idea. My wife's favorite series is/was Harry Potter..... I look at her movies, then at Amazon's Wheel of Time and go "C'MON MAN, SERIOUSLY"

[rhorle]

You know what I'm a huge baseball fan I haven't watched a game in like a decade but occasionally I watch highlights if they are on sports center so I'm definitely an authority on baseball.

You mean you would have to watch every baseball game in order to be a fan of baseball. You couldn't just watch one or two and call yourself a fan. If time from last read through was the litmus for being a Tolkien fan I'm guessing most people in the world would no longer be one.

[InfiniteCharger]

No one has ever claimed that the rights Amazon bought came directly from JRR Tolkien. Stop creating arguments in your head just because it is easier for you to defeat then the truth. The rights are complicated. Did you know that MGM had the rights to publish The Hobbit? As those were not sold to the Saul Zaentz Company but retained by UA? Rights also sometimes revert as New Line Cinema was going to have their rights to The Hobbit revert in 2010.

We were discussing if an adaptation would have been allowed. You've argued for pages that Tolkien was against adaptations and the second age never would have been approved. I've argued the opposite. That Tolkien was fine with adaptations and the second age wouldn't be an exception. Piecemeal comes into this because he didn't publish his entire legendarium yet it is to be taken as a whole. Hence it being published in 4 pieces. I never once said JRR sold the rights to a piece of a book. Once again you show that you need to invent delusions because you can't handle being wrong. Lmao.

No, we are discussing whether this series represent Tolkien's intent when he sold the rights for those 2 books.

Because this is what you have been trying to imply in this entire discussion, starting with this post:

If Tolkien intended his work to be treated like real world mythology then he would be fine with adaptations of his work. This is because real world mythology has been adapted for centuries. Even Tolkien reflected this in his work by modeling a lot of his stuff on his religious views but not as direct as C.S. Lewis did.

And you just keep making up stuff to justify that position which has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

All the letters he wrote about the movie treatment shows clearly he had strong opinions on how his work should be treated.


The rights he sold for those two books do not cover this series, which is why they had to be created via a loophole.

Therefore they do not represent the original intent of Tolkien when he sold the movie rights.

Somehow you just have a problem with reality and like repeating yourself.

Him creating a mythology within the narrative of his fictional world does not mean that this series reflects his intent.

You just keep making up falsehoods and keep being hilariously wrong.

This show is its own animal that is in no way a reflection of Tolkien' intent.

And according to you, it shouldn't need to reflect his intent in order to exist.

So why go on and on about his intent when you are contradicting yourself?

You defend the show doing what they want but then argue it is the same as what Tolkien wanted.

But it can't be if they are doing what they want.

So pick one. It cant be both.

[rhorle]

Because this is what you have been trying to imply in this entire discussion, starting with this post:

The discussion started long before that post. That was just the post where your own statements supported what I've been saying. I haven't once contradicted myself in my posts. You have invented entire claims you think I've said. Just like you still say I've claimed the show is canon or that Tolkien would have written the show the exact same way.

Tolkien approved of adaptations. That is a simple fact. Instead of acknowledging that you've sought various was change that fact. You've said published works only. You've said it has to be the whole. You've said it needs to be treated like real world history and myths (even though those get adapted all the time). You keep contradicting and changing your stance as you think of new ways to claim Tolkien would be against an adaptation.

Tolkien was fine with adaptations. That doesn't mean he would be fine with the story Amazon picked for Rings of Power. Two difference concepts that you wrongly conflate.

[InfiniteCharger]

And to be fair, IC is also making false claims on the other side of the argument. The only answer here is that no one knows what Tolkien would react concerning 2nd Age adaptation, because such a thing would not have been fathomable at the time he sold off the rights, considering the main body of work had not been properly adapted in Live Action in the first place. The appendices alone do not even have enough material to sustain a full story, which is part of the problems with Rings of Power right now.

I am not wrong in that Tolkien did not intend the appendices to be used by themselves for a story of the second age.
That would contradict the entire purpose of him spending most of his life trying to define that story along with prior ages.

That we do know and we have letters from him stating it and I already posted the content of one of them where he did.

[Triceron]

I am not. He was fine with adaptations of his work while he was alive but several projects fell through. Even ones where he thought it butchered his concept he didn't want to kill. This implies that Tolkien was fine with adaptations being made. There is no twisting of the facts here to reach that conclusion.

It doesn't matter if he did it for the money and paying a tax bill. What matters is that it was done at all. He came to terms with his work being adapted. The price he set to allow that to happen is irrelevant. He sold off his rights at the same time UA was trying to get a project off the ground with Tolkien. Instead of letting others try UA locked it down.

It is a strawman because you are arguing things I've never made and twisting the facts to support that made up conclusion. I've also said from the start that we can't know what Tolkien would think because he is dead. That still doesn't mean he would be against an adaptation for the reasons outlined by the other poster. I get you feel left out of a discussion but there is no reason to come into this inventing things just out of boredom.

That Tolkien was fine with adaptations and the second age wouldn't be an exception

You don't know the second age wouldn't be an exception.

Even today, the rights to the Silmarillion are not available for film rights adaptations. How Tolkien would regard the film rights to his unfinished notes is not known, so there can't be any way to determine exceptions or not.

I'm clearly debunking this specific claim which you actually did make. You can't imply it when you literally do not know.

[rhorle]

I am not wrong in that Tolkien did not intend the appendices to be used by themselves for a story of the second age.

He already contradicted what you think his entire purpose was by only selling the rights to some of his work. Did he ever state that the appendices were not to be adapted into anything?

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You don't know the second age wouldn't be an exception.

The rights he sold covered what was mentioned in the Appendices. Trying to claim that he didn't want those parts adapted even though he sold the rights to those parts is folly.

[InfiniteCharger]

The discussion started long before that post. That was just the post where your own statements supported what I've been saying. I haven't once contradicted myself in my posts. You have invented entire claims you think I've said. Just like you still say I've claimed the show is canon or that Tolkien would have written the show the exact same way.

Tolkien approved of adaptations. That is a simple fact. Instead of acknowledging that you've sought various was change that fact. You've said published works only. You've said it has to be the whole. You've said it needs to be treated like real world history and myths (even though those get adapted all the time). You keep contradicting and changing your stance as you think of new ways to claim Tolkien would be against an adaptation.

Tolkien was fine with adaptations. That doesn't mean he would be fine with the story Amazon picked for Rings of Power. Two difference concepts that you wrongly conflate.

All you keep saying is that him selling the rights to the two books means he was fine with a television series "adaptation" of the second age being made solely based on the appendices. That is just factually incorrect because no such thing was included in the rights he sold.

Then on top of that, you claim that because he sold those rights, that he would be OK with whatever studios came up with, such as Amazon for their second age story. Again, no. The volume of letters showing his disgust at many ideas that were put forward shows clearly he would not have been OK with whatever studios came up with for books, let alone the 2nd age. And Amazon's series was basically given the green light to make up a whole bunch of things in their second age story because they didn't have the rights. So it isn't even adaptation in the first place and they don't even call it that. They just have the rights to use certain characters and places from Tolkien in that made up story.

[Myradin]

I almost feel like we need a second thread for this rights debate. Feels like discussion of the actual show is consumed by it.

[InfiniteCharger]

He already contradicted what you think his entire purpose was by only selling the rights to some of his work. Did he ever state that the appendices were not to be adapted into anything?

The rights were to make a movies based on the two books and potentially television series less than 8 episodes. Thats it.
If Warner Brothers decided to make a movie based on the appendices covering parts of the second age, they can.
But whether that means that those movies reflect Tolkien's intent for the second age is a totally different animal.
Again, the rights and Tolkiens intent are two totally separate and different things.
The rights mean that Amazon can make up whatever kind of story they want and don't have to follow Tolkien at all.
And that is obvious in what they are doing with this series. To claim this has anything to do with Tolkien is dishonest.

[rhorle]

All you keep saying is that him selling the rights to the two books means he was fine with a television series "adaptation" of the second age being made solely based on the appendices.

I never said a Television series. I said that he was fine with the appendices being adapted into whatever because they were part of the rights he sold. It is a bit silly to make the distinction between Television and Movie at this late in the discussion. The rights he sold didn't require approval by him or his estate, did he? So of course he would have to be okay with whatever was created. He removed his right to control everything when he sold the rights.

Amazon has called the show an adaptation. It just isn't a faithful one. Anything they do would be made up. The Jackson films were made up. Every Tolkien adaptation failed and realized made up a story based on what Tolkien wrote. Amazon just made up more then the others did. WB is doing the same with their anime just like they did with the video games.

[Triceron]

I am not wrong in that Tolkien did not intend the appendices to be used by themselves for a story of the second age.
That would contradict the entire purpose of him spending most of his life trying to define that story along with prior ages.

That we do know and we have letters from him stating it and I already posted the content of one of them where he did.

It works both ways for the point that Rhorle is making. Whether he'd be fine or not with that happening would not be known even if he did not intend it to happen. A situation like Rings of Power is very particular to today's post-LOTR Live Action trilogy age, and we don't know what Tolkien's limits were when assigning the appendices as part of the material that the rights cover. Considering there is so much (2nd Age) material in the appendices themselves that could have easily been adapted within LOTR/Hobbit, it's hard to determine what he may have thought about a completely separate project dedicated to the 2nd Age and in what scope. It's not a conversation that was ever really had in the context of what we have now with Rings of Power.

TLDR; we don't know what Tolkien would have thought of a 2nd Age project like Rings of Power.

[rhorle]

If Warner Brothers decided to make a movie based on the appendices covering parts of the second age, they can.

And yet you've been arguing that Tolkien wouldn't have wanted those things adapted. Isn't it strange now that you've moved the goal posts to only apply to Television you use the 2nd age being adapted to support yourself? The discussion has never been about what Tolkien intended the 2nd age to be. We are not discussing canon. Stop trying to make this about canon.

Any rights to Tolkien's work mean that a person can make up whatever they want. That is the whole concept behind owning the rights.

[Triceron]

The rights he sold covered what was mentioned in the Appendices. Trying to claim that he didn't want those parts adapted even though he sold the rights to those parts is folly.

Just because the appendices covered parts of it does not mean he would be fine with a standalone adaptation of the Second Age. That's a whole different conclusion which you've drawn which has zero factual bearing. You're just making an assumption and passing it off as implied fact. That's a fallacy in itself.

You could say that Tolkien sold the rights so he couldn't do anything about it. But you can't imply that he'd be okay with something that he clearly did not have an intention to agree upon when he sold the rights. We have no insight to the state of his thoughts on what he actually intends with the film rights of his body of work, whether he cared for it or whether he simply resigned himself to accept any outcome and distance himself from them. So what is being implied by the selling of the rights has nothing to do with whether Tolkien is actually 'fine' with the decision, because being fine or okay with a decision is not an exclusively implied conclusion to having made it.

It's like if we were talking about Sophie's Choice and you argue that she was fine with her decision because she ultimately made the choice. That would be an argumentative fallacy. The entire moral of that story is about making (hard) decisions that one is not okay with that they have to live with the rest of their lives.

[DarkAmbient]

Finale happened and everyone's droning on about some tedious bullshit because they can't be wrong on the internet

[rhorle]

Just because the appendices covered parts of it does not mean he would be fine with a standalone adaptation of the Second Age. That's a whole different conclusion which you've drawn which has zero factual bearing. You're just making an assumption and passing it off as implied fact. That's a fallacy in itself.

He sold the rights. That means he gave his approval for anything contained in those rights to be adapted. In whole or in part. Even Mr. Jackson cut stuff out and very few people try to gate keep him adapting the books in the first place. I'm not assuming anything but the facts. Selling the rights implied that Tolkien came to terms with those things being adapted.

[InfiniteCharger]

I never said a Television series. I said that he was fine with the appendices being adapted into whatever because they were part of the rights he sold. It is a bit silly to make the distinction between Television and Movie at this late in the discussion. The rights he sold didn't require approval by him or his estate, did he? So of course he would have to be okay with whatever was created. He removed his right to control everything when he sold the rights.

Amazon has called the show an adaptation. It just isn't a faithful one. Anything they do would be made up. The Jackson films were made up. Every Tolkien adaptation failed and realized made up a story based on what Tolkien wrote. Amazon just made up more then the others did. WB is doing the same with their anime just like they did with the video games.

You keep saying he would have been OK with any kind of "adaptation" is the problem because we know he would not have.

There are far too many of his letters showing that he would not have been for you to even claim this.

And no, Amazon doesn't call this an adaptation outside of misleading marketing talk.

If you watch the actual show at the end of every episode it says just the opposite.

I have quoted this for you already on this very thread.

This series is almost completely made up. There is no real debate about it. And they themselves have stated it.

[rhorle]

Finale happened and everyone's droning on about some tedious bullshit because they can't be wrong on the internet

What else is there to discuss? Dislike of the show for the 100th time? People have shared their thoughts on the episode and it gets little traction. Even you yourself choose not to comment on those in favor of tedious BS.

[downnola]

No, we are discussing whether this series represent Tolkien's intent when he sold the rights for those 2 books.

The only other person close enough to Tolkien's work to be informed on the matter is Christopher Tolkien and he's not around to give his opinion. Not that it would matter much. I can't count how many times I've seen someone say the Jackson films were true representations of Lord of the Rings despite Christopher claiming otherwise. Was he right? If the actual gatekeeper and editor of his father's work isn't an authority on the subject then who is?

Instead of claiming to know the opinions of people who are dead and can't speak for themselves, we could just ask if the series stays true to Tolkien's themes and tell a good story. After watching the last episode, there are parts that I think do and some that don't. Considering how much money has gone into this series, I think it's safe to say it's not living up to it's potential.

[rhorle]

You keep saying he would have been OK with any kind of "adaptation" is the problem because we know he would not have.

And yet he sold the rights for people to adapt his work however they wanted to. Action speaks louder then words here. We can infer from those words what he may have thought of certain adaptations but it is still clear that he gave consent for adaptations to occur.

Amazon calls Rings of Power an adaptation. Every episode the X-ray trivia state it is based on certain parts of Tolkien's work. Amazon states it was inspired by, though not contained in, the original source material in the credits. Aka an adaptation. Based on, Inspired by, and whatever else are all different way to refer to an adaptation of a work.