Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

So thinking back on the show and trying to make sense of things knowing what we do now, is there any tangible, sensible reason Halbrand saved Galadriel from drowning? I mean, I can't imagine she is his only 'in' to gaining favour with the Elves. There's like a million other ways to get into their good graces, and even in the official canon he does so through playing Celebrimbor's ambitions, which seem quite in tact in this adaptation.

If anything, the most sensible thing to do would have been to allow Galadriel to drown. He would have been fine in Numenor without her, no?

[Syegfryed]

So thinking back on the show and trying to make sense of things knowing what we do now, is there any tangible, sensible reason Halbrand saved Galadriel from drowning? I mean, I can't imagine she is his only 'in' to gaining favour with the Elves. There's like a million other ways to get into their good graces, and even in the official canon he does so through playing Celebrimbor's ambitions, which seem quite in tact in this adaptation.

If anything, the most sensible thing to do would have been to allow Galadriel to drown. He would have been fine in Numenor without her, no?

He has the hots for her, clearly

[rhorle]

It does matter because you claimed he would be okay with something he may not have intended.

So is it your opinion he was forced into signing away creative control? It was done against his will? Authorization has everything to do with intent. IC actually did argue that the 2nd age wasn't authorized to be used. So it is clear that you don't understand the context or past discussions. If he signed the deal because of tax debts then that is showing intent to give creative control away, right? Lmao.

[Adamas102]

you have Kelebrimbor being a dumbass who doesn't know about 'combining ores", greatest blacksmith over there.

Yeah and according to Tolkien the elves were so fucking bad at crafting that it took them 300 years to learn how to make rings and then 10 more years to actually make 3 of them.

But according to all the crybabies, long time spans are just epic regardless of how silly it makes the narrative. As soon as I see someone complain about the condensed timeline I know right away that they’re a fucking idiot and don’t know the first thing about adapting a story to a dramatic medium.

The show’s only real weakness was pacing the multiple storylines. The Harfoot/Stranger one could have been saved to another season to make more room for the others, but I see why they did it if the goal was to shift focus away from the Halbrand reveal (and while everyone wants to claim they knew from the start, there was plenty of discussion early on as to which character would end up being Sauron, so they succeeded at that goal).

[Triceron]

So is it your opinion he was forced into signing away creative control? It was done against his will? Authorization has everything to do with intent. IC actually did argue that the 2nd age wasn't authorized to be used. So it is clear that you don't understand the context or past discussions.

You realize what a tax debt could do, right? And no, I'm not providing any opinion. I'm providing room to argue your conclusion is not the only outcome that implies intent. In a situation where one is forced to make a hard decision, one can go through with the decision without being okay with the outcome, for the sake of the greater good. This is the whole reason I'm drawing comparisons to Sophie's Choice, which you haven't commented on whatsoever on. Not even taking time to include in quotes. Do you even acknowledge what I'm saying, or are you intentionally ignoring it?

If he signed the deal because of tax debts then that is showing intent to give creative control away, right? Lmao.

Yes, and in this context, intent of giving away creative control to pay off debts wouldn't mean he was fine or okay with it . It would be that he wasn't okay with it, wasn't fine with it, but had to do it anyways in order to save the estate and keep his family and business afloat.

[ringpriest]

My biggest problem with the show overall is the dialogue, the story and the lack of development on world and character building. There are moments where the show shines. The Elrond, Durin and Disa scenes were a treat whenever they were all on screen, so much so the show suffered when they were not on screen, there were also arcs that felt pointlessly added, like the Harfoots, by the time the season was over I thought to myself that if you take out the Harfoot arc nothing would have been lost. The scenes with them were not bad at first, in fact when I started watching I thought they were charming, seeing Lenny Henry as a Hobbit as someone who is a fan of his stand up comedy, brought a huge smile on my face. Unfortunately the Harfoots wore out their welcome the more the show went on, they became a crutch that seemed to slow the plot of the main story down.

Thank you for sharing your review of the show. (I trimmed it down to the part I'm replying to.)

Ursula K. Le Guin has an essay (my copy of which is misplaced) where she talks about the Language of Elfland, and how there's a certain cadence to the speech of high fantasy. And it's not that everyone in a book has to speak like an elf-lord for it to be high-fantasy - in LotR, Samwise does not (and that's rather the point), while Aragorn and Elrond and Gandalf (except when he chooses otherwise) do.

When you mentioned dialogue, that's the thought that came to my mind. It's like the show is sometimes trying for that language of Elfland, but not reliably hitting the mark, and sometimes not trying when it should be. (House of the Dragon, by contrast, doesn't lean heavily into high nor low fantasy, and it has its own style of dialog that it consistently seems to it. I.e. House of the Dragon has a bit lower target that RoP, and is hitting that target much more accurately and consistently.)

[Xath]

It is a bad faith argument to say that Tolkien was fine with adaptations being made because he himself signed rights away? Nothing I am saying is about the ends justifying the means. Or a theoretical situation. Tolkien signing the rights himself is a very real thing that happened. He made an agreement to give X rights to Y things to Z company. That includes making adaptations.

I'm not wrong about what this conversation is about. It is about adaptations being made whether from a whole story or parts of a story. Limiting it to 2nd age is just bogging it down into assumptions that we can't talk about as you yourself even said. The appendices however were part of the rights he signed away and thus were something he was fine with being adapted.

I'm not drawing a blanket conclusion because a certain decision was made. I'm drawing a conclusion from what he sold. He sold the right for others to make adaptations. Therefore he was okay with others making adaptations. Even IC agrees with this point, or at least they did, because they argued that his published work is the only thing he intended to have adapted. Yet now they shift from that not being the cause because their argument of the moment can't support that.

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Right. Hence why your example works better when you require a baseball fan to see every single baseball game. If a person only watches the games of their favorite team they can not be a fan according to your logic.

No I said primary work that's 4 books total not talking about the notes or appendices or anything that was after death turned into a new book. Talking about 4 books very much equivalent to just watching a single team if not even less time consuming.

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So being a fan and an authority of something is the same thing now? One can’t be one without being another?

Good lord stop playing word games you are bad at them. If I claimed to be either while not actually watching games I would be correctly dismissed.

[Syegfryed]

Yeah and according to Tolkien the elves were so fucking bad at crafting that it took them 300 years to learn how to make rings and then 10 more years to actually make 3 of them.

To make rings or to make the rings of power? you can't be a blacksmith and not know about allowys.

The show’s only real weakness was pacing the multiple storylines

And the story
and the writing
and the directing
and the acting
and the actors
and the editing

The Harfoot/Stranger one could have been saved to another season to make more room for the others, but I see why they did it if the goal was to shift focus away from the Halbrand reveal (and while everyone wants to claim they knew from the start, there was plenty of discussion early on as to which character would end up being Sauron, so they succeeded at that goal).

No, everyone with half a brain knew he was Sauron from the get to go, people don't get to claim this was something shady or mysterious just because the show force the hints on the stranger, who we also knew, was Gandalf all along. maybe we hoped it was another wizard, but since that would be a clever thing, obviously they would not do that

[Adamas102]

If anything, the most sensible thing to do would have been to allow Galadriel to drown. He would have been fine in Numenor without her, no?

Pretty much any narrative can be written a hundred different ways to get from point A to point B. In the end, the way they did it here worked to tie in the Numenorean storyline, the Mordor storyline, and the Elven rings storyline together with a touchstone character at the center. Despite all the bitching, it works.

[rhorle]

You realize what a tax debt could do, right?

So you understand why he intend to give away creative control of his stories. Are you saying he didn't intend to trade the rights for money? Are you saying he tried to scam buyers by not intending to give the rights away even though that is what he was selling? If one is forced to make a hard decision than the one they picked is their intent. Yes that doesn't mean a person was okay with it but it still means it was what they intended to do.

Again this isn't about his feelings on the choice. Just the intent of selling and authorizing adaptations of his work. He no longer would have creative control because someone else would be setting the terms. How can I intentionally be ignoring something you've stated when we can't infer intent from actions? The act of signing the contract indicates he was fine with the terms of the deal. He was fine trading some control of his work to save his estate, business, and family. Otherwise he wouldn't have signed.

[Triceron]

Pretty much any narrative can be written a hundred different ways to get from point A to point B. In the end, the way they did it here worked to tie in the Numenorean storyline, the Mordor storyline, and the Elven rings storyline together with a touchstone character at the center. Despite all the bitching, it works.

It works because it's contrived. That's the point of the 'bitching'. It's making sense of motivations, and questioning the verisimilitude. We're not talking about whether the writers were able to make it work or not. They could literally insert a Robot character from the future who tells them all to meet in the Southlands, and that would be considered a plot that works.

Did Sauron know Galadriel was going to not go to Valinor? Did he know she would still be in the Elve's good graces after she returned to Middle Earth? Did he know she would travel back to Middle Earth alone, and would be willing to go to Numenor? Did he know he was going to be saved by Numenoreans?

How much influence did he really have over all these events that happened. Because if it was all so convenient to his plan that everything happened in this way, fuck, he didn't even need the One Ring to rule them all. All he needed was the Rings of Power's writers.

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So you understand why he intend to give away creative control of his stories. Are you saying he didn't intend to trade the rights for money?

Intending to give away rights for money does not equate to intending on the Second Age to be adapted as its own series.

Just like George Lucas intending to give away rights for money does not equate to intending the sequel trilogy to utterly bastardize his legacy, which he fully regrets having happened in retrospect.

Would you say George Lucas was okay with the Sequel Trilogy happening, and argue that he sold the rights therefore he was completely okay with the sequel trilogy being made as it was? That he was fine with it? Because I can tell you, he was not fine with it, he was not okay with it, and he fully regretted the decision.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Good lord stop playing word games you are bad at them. If I claimed to be either while not actually watching games I would be correctly dismissed.

word games? your the one trying to gate keep being a fan and then injected being an authority on a topic when pushed on it as if you have to be one to be the other.

[Adamas102]

To make rings or to make the rings of power? you can't be a blacksmith and not know about allowys.

It took 7,500 years for real world smiths to go from smelting metals to creating alloys. The idea that a blacksmith should automatically know about alloys when the setting isn’t placed in a real historical time period is just your own headcanon. The show made a point of establishing that creating alloys is simply not a widely known practice in Middle Earth at this time. I’m perfectly fine with an elven smith whose craft might have revolved more around making amazing things with the pure or pre-mixed elements that were available to him only just now learning about alloys.

And the story
and the writing
and the directing
and the acting
and the actors
and the editing

I’ve yet to see any legitimate complaints about any of those other than “I don’t like it”. There has been absolutely nothing wrong with the acting or actors (if you want to bitch about not liking them then so be it but there’s nothing technically wrong). The pacing is part of the writing and I already touched on that but the dialogue is just the usual fantasy schlock and isn’t any worse than Tolkien’s (he was never great with dialogue to begin with). Editing wasn’t perfect at times, but overall it was fine.

No, everyone with half a brain knew he was Sauron from the get to go, people don't get to claim this was something shady or mysterious just because the show force the hints on the stranger, who we also knew, was Gandalf all along. maybe we hoped it was another wizard, but since that would be a clever thing, obviously they would not do that

Lie if you want but it’s 100% unequivocally true that Sauron’s/Annatar’s identity was something that people discussed. Hell, if you google Annatar the pic of that Eminem looking lady still comes up.

[Xath]

word games? your the one trying to gate keep being a fan and then injected being an authority on a topic when pushed on it as if you have to be one to be the other.

Rhorle specifically is attempting to act as an authority figure in here just like with wot in both cases the lack of knowledge is extremely apparent to actual fans. People who cry gatekeeping usually have zero idea about the fandom they are crying about.

[Syegfryed]

It took 7,500 years for real world smiths to go from smelting metals to creating alloys. The idea that a blacksmith should automatically know about alloys when the setting isn’t placed in a real historical time period is just your own headcanon.

The idea of one of the great blacksmiths of their age NOT knowing about alloys is YOUR headcanon, especially knowing and seeing, the quality of their weapons and armor.

I’ve yet to see any legitimate complaints about any of those other than “I don’t like it”.

Thats because you are blatantly ignoring then, straight up, there is legit complaints about all of those everywhere, to a point of the showrunners doing damage control out there.

There is no point in listing all of then over again because you are one of those people to dismiss valid arguments and red hearing about something else.

There has been absolutely nothing wrong with the acting or actors

Galadriel actor is awful on the role

Celebrimbor and other elves don't look like elves, bad picks., the acting is bad and forced and only 3 people can be saved, if you want to blame the directing, fair, but they don't do great either

The pacing is part of the writing and I already touched on that but the dialogue is just the usual fantasy schlock and isn’t any worse than Tolkien’s (he was never great with dialogue to begin with). Editing wasn’t perfect at times, but overall it was fine.

No, it was worse, very worse than Tolkien, the dialogues are awful, don't make sense most of time and are full of no sequiturs

I always point the scene where Galadriel asks the guy about his wife, and he do a fucking nonsensical monologue, and then

"she drowned"

what a scene, masterfully writing,

Lie if you want but it’s 100% unequivocally true that Sauron’s/Annatar’s identity was something that people discussed

People can discuss pointless stuff all they want, but you have point, if people can against all odds and logic like this show, they can be fooled easily by this bad writing and not know the obvious

Hell, if you google Annatar the pic of that Eminem looking lady still comes up.

before the show aired, the moment we saw Hallbland we knew it was sauron, to a point people we called him Not-Sauron.

The only valid discussion at first would be who is the mage, but by the second or third episode as he did gandalf stuff, it was blatantly obvious who he was

[rogueMatthias]

Damn, I guessed the Gandalf reveal exactly from the first episodes.

Me and my friend were talking about how awful the writing was, and we joked it was so bad and tied to nostalgia that they'd probably have the Stranger slip into the last episode either "If in doubt, always follow your nose" or "You shall not pass" somehow.

Even we couldn't believe he'd ACTUALLY be Gandalf though, as that would be stupid and make no sense at all in the timelines.

Genuinely - We were spit-balling the dumbest thing we could imagine happening and accurately predicted the end of the season.

[MiiiMiii]

I just started watching it.

Its a cool start, the intro when they are a small team of elves chasing Sauron.

But once the intro segment is done it's just jumping to 7 different stories talking about names and situations I have no clue about. Show me what's going on, don't talk about it. So hard to get a grip on what all these storylines try to be. Feels like I am taking history class, only reading books.

[rhorle]

Intending to give away rights for money does not equate to intending on the Second Age to be adapted as its own series.

And here is the flip flop. You just got done saying parts of the 2nd age were authorized by Tolkien to be adapted. Yet now you are saying it was never his intent to authorize those parts to be adapted. It doesn't matter if George, or Tolkien, was okay with how their work was adapted. Remember you said we can't say what Tolkien would think because he is dead yet that is exactly what you are implying with your Mr. Lucas example.

The rights to parts of the 2nd age, those that appear in the appendices, were sold and authorized to be adapted. Simple facts. Simple answer.

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Rhorle specifically is attempting to act as an authority figure in here just like with wot in both cases the lack of knowledge is extremely apparent to actual fans. People who cry gatekeeping usually have zero idea about the fandom they are crying about.

I've never said I am an authority. That is you assigning a quality so you can demean and dismiss. Using wiki's and other information doesn't display a lack of knowledge on the subject and "actual fans" that dismiss those things aren't actual fans. Because they wouldn't be dismissive just because facts go against what they think. The only one crying about gate keeping here is yourself who needs to arbitrary be the authority on who and who isn't a fan because you can't otherwise argue anything. Yet your a "real fan" lmao.

[Triceron]

And here is the flip flop. You just got done saying parts of the 2nd age were authorized by Tolkien to be adapted. Yet now you are saying it was never his intent to authorize those parts to be adapted. It doesn't matter if George, or Tolkien, was okay with how their work was adapted. Remember you said we can't say what Tolkien would think because he is dead yet that is exactly what you are implying with your Mr. Lucas example.

The rights to parts of the 2nd age, those that appear in the appendices, were sold and authorized to be adapted. Simple facts. Simple answer.

There is no debate on 'intent to authorize'. That isn't the topic of discussion. It's whether he intended the 2nd Age to be adapted to film. Just because it is part of the rights does not mean he intends it to happen.

Just like saying having the rights to LOTR means you can create 8-feet tall Blue skinned Navii for Middle Earth doesn't mean Tolkien intended for this to happen, or is even okay with it. He sold the rights off to settle tax debts , that is why he authorized the deal. We have no information after the deal on what he thinks about other people adapting his works any way they please, and whether he is okay or fine with that. Especially if we're talking specifically about the appendices being expanded on into a show.

Like I've said before, authorization of letting someone watch over my house does not equate to intent of letting my house getting trashed. 'intent of authorization' is semantics and mincing words, we're not talking about authorization we're talking about intent of a portion of his appendices being adapted to film as standalone content

[beanman12345]

Damn, I guessed the Gandalf reveal exactly from the first episodes.

Me and my friend were talking about how awful the writing was, and we joked it was so bad and tied to nostalgia that they'd probably have the Stranger slip into the last episode either "If in doubt, always follow your nose" or "You shall not pass" somehow.

Even we couldn't believe he'd ACTUALLY be Gandalf though, as that would be stupid and make no sense at all in the timelines.

Genuinely - We were spit-balling the dumbest thing we could imagine happening and accurately predicted the end of the season.

I don't think it's Gandalf. I'm pretty sure that's Alatar, since it fits the timeline.