Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

Intending to give away rights for money does not equate to intending on the Second Age to be adapted as its own series.

And here is the flip flop. You just got done saying parts of the 2nd age were authorized by Tolkien to be adapted. Yet now you are saying it was never his intent to authorize those parts to be adapted. It doesn't matter if George, or Tolkien, was okay with how their work was adapted. Remember you said we can't say what Tolkien would think because he is dead yet that is exactly what you are implying with your Mr. Lucas example.

The rights to parts of the 2nd age, those that appear in the appendices, were sold and authorized to be adapted. Simple facts. Simple answer.

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Rhorle specifically is attempting to act as an authority figure in here just like with wot in both cases the lack of knowledge is extremely apparent to actual fans. People who cry gatekeeping usually have zero idea about the fandom they are crying about.

I've never said I am an authority. That is you assigning a quality so you can demean and dismiss. Using wiki's and other information doesn't display a lack of knowledge on the subject and "actual fans" that dismiss those things aren't actual fans. Because they wouldn't be dismissive just because facts go against what they think. The only one crying about gate keeping here is yourself who needs to arbitrary be the authority on who and who isn't a fan because you can't otherwise argue anything. Yet your a "real fan" lmao.

[Triceron]

And here is the flip flop. You just got done saying parts of the 2nd age were authorized by Tolkien to be adapted. Yet now you are saying it was never his intent to authorize those parts to be adapted. It doesn't matter if George, or Tolkien, was okay with how their work was adapted. Remember you said we can't say what Tolkien would think because he is dead yet that is exactly what you are implying with your Mr. Lucas example.

The rights to parts of the 2nd age, those that appear in the appendices, were sold and authorized to be adapted. Simple facts. Simple answer.

There is no debate on 'intent to authorize'. That isn't the topic of discussion. It's whether he intended the 2nd Age to be adapted to film. Just because it is part of the rights does not mean he intends it to happen.

Just like saying having the rights to LOTR means you can create 8-feet tall Blue skinned Navii for Middle Earth doesn't mean Tolkien intended for this to happen, or is even okay with it. He sold the rights off to settle tax debts , that is why he authorized the deal. We have no information after the deal on what he thinks about other people adapting his works any way they please, and whether he is okay or fine with that. Especially if we're talking specifically about the appendices being expanded on into a show.

Like I've said before, authorization of letting someone watch over my house does not equate to intent of letting my house getting trashed. 'intent of authorization' is semantics and mincing words, we're not talking about authorization we're talking about intent of a portion of his appendices being adapted to film as standalone content

[beanman12345]

Damn, I guessed the Gandalf reveal exactly from the first episodes.

Me and my friend were talking about how awful the writing was, and we joked it was so bad and tied to nostalgia that they'd probably have the Stranger slip into the last episode either "If in doubt, always follow your nose" or "You shall not pass" somehow.

Even we couldn't believe he'd ACTUALLY be Gandalf though, as that would be stupid and make no sense at all in the timelines.

Genuinely - We were spit-balling the dumbest thing we could imagine happening and accurately predicted the end of the season.

I don't think it's Gandalf. I'm pretty sure that's Alatar, since it fits the timeline.

[rogueMatthias]

I don't think it's Gandalf. I'm pretty sure that's Alatar, since it fits the timeline.

Errrrm.... I'm pretty sure this scene was meant to be all but confirmation.



I guess there's still a chance it's not him anyway, but it seems a lot more like they care more about nostalgia baiting and cool spectacle than they do actually sticking to any timelines or lore.

[beanman12345]

Errrrm.... I'm pretty sure this scene was meant to be all but confirmation.


I guess there's still a chance it's not him anyway, but it seems a lot more like they care more about nostalgia baiting and cool spectacle than they do actually sticking to any timelines or lore.

The line being nostalgia bait, which I concede was, is a pretty far thing from confirmation.

[rhorle]

There is no debate on 'intent to authorize'. That isn't the topic of discussion. It's whether he intended the 2nd Age to be adapted to film. Just because it is part of the rights does not mean he intends it to happen.

You stated he authorized it. That shows his intent to authorize adaptations. Yet here you are debating it. Lmao. It doesn't matter if he would have wanted the 2nd age to be adapted because he authorized it to be adapted. His intent is clear.

[Adamas102]

The idea of one of the great blacksmiths of their age NOT knowing about alloys is YOUR headcanon, especially knowing and seeing, the quality of their weapons and armor.

I literally just describe to you a real world scenario where the best craftsmen of their time were unaware of things that were not common knowledge at their time and your response was essentially a “no u!”. And no, it’s not MY headcanon because the show very clearly established it. Is there any point in even addressing any more of your idiotic ramblings that of course include the ol’ “there ARE other arguments I’m just not going to mention them”?

[Shadowferal]

This episode was so bad in many ways that is prob the worst of the show, so man non sequiturs in the dialogue, so many stolen line s from the movies, you have Kelebrimbor being a dumbass who doesn't know about 'combining ores", greatest blacksmith over there

Worse when you consider his grandfather was Fëanor, likely the greatest smith that ever existed.

[Adamas102]

Even we couldn't believe he'd ACTUALLY be Gandalf though, as that would be stupid and make no sense at all in the timelines.

Except it can make sense in the timeline. The Istari were sent in the 3rd Age with a specific mission, but there’s nothing specifying that this was their first time in western Middle Earth (Olorin himself had visited Middle Earth in the 1st Age already). My guess is he’ll die at some point in the show and they’ll use this storyline to flesh out the reason why he felt he was too weak and scared to be sent back to Middle Earth to face Sauron in the 3rd Age.

[Syegfryed]

I literally just describe to you a real world scenario where the best craftsmen of their time were unaware of things that were not common knowledge at their time and your response was essentially a “no u!”. And no, it’s not MY headcanon because the show very clearly established it.

Your description of a real world scenario holds no value in this stance since we know its not true in the show.

Yes the show very clearly show how they are bad by writing Celebrimbor as a dumbass who don't know about an alloy, despite being the greatest blacksmiths of the age

If you have someone else in the world of man combining ores to make things stronger or lighter HOW THE FUCK DO HE IS THE BEST?? The show straight up, once again go figure it, contradict itself

Show try to pain Celebrimbor as the best blacksmith, then he does not know about alloys when other people does, big fucking flop

Is there any point in even addressing any more of your idiotic ramblings that of course include the ol’ “there ARE other arguments I’m just not going to mention them”?

Is there any point is repeating over and over again if you are just going to bring nonsense and walk out like a pigeon chess?

You didn't even addressed the basic about Celebrimbor being a dumbass(note, you also bail out in the idiotic dialogue of the guy and galadriel about his dead wife, i don't blame you, that shit ass dialogue don't have defence), but you think you own it by stating your own headcanon about how it makes totally sense that the great blacksmith of the elves don't know about combining ores when there is people out there doing it

The show portray the elves, to my amusing, as totally idiots

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Worse when you consider his grandfather was Fëanor, likely the greatest smith that ever existed.

Even worse when there is people in the world doing it, its not like Sauron discover it while working there, it was very well know practice, but he had no clue

[Skulltaker]

And yet Jackson was going to produce it all with $75 million budget for two films. It was NLC that urged him to add cut portions back and dream even bigger. It was NLC that got him to do it justice. Without NLC taking the helm it wouldn't have happened the way it did. It is silly to deny that.

Because that was the budget that Miramax was capable of putting up. New Line didn't urge him, they encouraged him and, most of all, gave him a bigger budget. By far not big enough to make all three movies possible at that point, it took overwhelmingly positive reaction from the attendants at Cannes in 2001 for that.

Obviously, the movies would not have happened without New Line. They paid for them. The driving force behind the movies was Jackson. It's an outright lie from you to try to spin this any other way.

It's canon in the books and the show outright says he's dead as well. One thing this show absolutely cannot manage is subtle, much less subtle misdirection. So stop bullshitting and accept the obvious.

Ahm... what? Not it isn't. Celeborn is alive and well at this point in the books, and his and Galadriels daughter Celebrian, future wife of Elrond, should be, as well. She was a couple of hundred years old by the time the Rings were made.

And since there are some attempts to at least imply that Rings of Power shares a continuity with the movies we can probably say for certain that he's not dead, since, you know, the Fellowship of the Ring meet him in Lothlorien.

[Adamas102]

Your description of a real world scenario holds no value in this stance since we know its not true in the show.

Yes the show very clearly show how they are bad by writing Celebrimbor as a dumbass who don't know about an alloy, despite being the greatest blacksmiths of the age

If you have someone else in the world of man combining ores to make things stronger or lighter HOW THE FUCK DO HE IS THE BEST?? The show straight up, once again go figure it, contradict itself

Show try to pain Celebrimbor as the best blacksmith, then he does not know about alloys when other people does, big fucking flop

So basically you just have this ingrained assumption of what a smith should know and despite the show explaining it very clearly you're too simple minded to get past your preconceived notions.

Celebrimbor (and the other Gwaith) were jewel-smiths, and while he was the most skilled among them that doesn't imply that he'd know about every single thing concerning metal working. Celebrimbor can still be the most talented artisan of his time without knowing everything. On top of that, he DOES know about combining metals (he dismisses the idea because doing so with what little mithril they have would dilute it too much for what he originally had planned). So he actually does know about making alloys, but what he didn't think about was finding one that would somehow amplify the magical properties of mithril and thus allow him to achieve his goal with what small amount they had. Even according to the lore, the smiths spent hundreds of years learning from Annatar and despite there being no details in what exactly he taught them it still proves the point that they (Celebrimbor included) didn't know EVERYTHING about smithing.

note, you also bail out in the idiotic dialogue of the guy and galadriel about his dead wife, i don't blame you, that shit ass dialogue don't have defence

The loss of his wife is a painful memory for Elendil. As he pauses for a moment to think on it his eyes are drawn by the sunrise before him and, almost as a way of escaping that memory, mentioned his unease about this journey they're on. You can see it in his eyes as he is drawn back to Galadriel's lingering question and as he turns to leave he answers it.

There's nothing wrong with that scene or the writing, and Lloyd Owen does a fine job subtly conveying the pain in trying to dodge the question before finally answering it. What I'm gathering is that perhaps something like reality TV would be more your speed. You know, something where your brain doesn't have to do much work.

[Adamas102]

It works because it's contrived. That's the point of the 'bitching'. It's making sense of motivations, and questioning the verisimilitude. We're not talking about whether the writers were able to make it work or not. They could literally insert a Robot character from the future who tells them all to meet in the Southlands, and that would be considered a plot that works.

Ah yes, because a characters that fit the setting doing things that fit the setting is akin to having robots in Middle Earth. Looking at some of your other replies on this page (and if I recall correctly you were in the "well if dwarves don't have to be white then might as well make them blue" camp) it seems hyperbole is your bread and butter.

Why didn't Halbrand let Galadriel drown? Because this last episode made it pretty obvious that seducing her to his side was one of his goals.

As to how much was Sauron able to control? He'd almost certainly know about a powerful Noldor elf who'd dedicated centuries to pursuing him, and just like the audience he'd be able to surmise that she wouldn't sail West before completing her mission. Fishing her out of the water presented a good opportunity to isolate her early on and who else but Numenoreans would be sailing those western seas, so being rescued by them is a fair assumption. From there, he knows her crusade will guide her back to Middle Earth one way or another. It also doesn't seem too far fetched to believe that she'd still have some friends among the elves which would be his way to get close to Celebrimbor.

Yes, masquerading as an elf called Annatar is much simpler, but 300 years of advanced smithing classes is not particularly interesting or dramatic. The show used the foundations of the lore to weave a much more dramatic (and yes, at times a bit muddled) narrative that still arrives at roughly the same conclusion which is what really matters in the end.

[Triceron]

Ah yes, because a characters that fit the setting doing things that fit the setting is akin to having robots in Middle Earth. .

If you think the plot works, then yeah, I can argue that robots from the future that tell the main characters where to meet up would also be an example of the plot working. It's just as bad as what we already have.

And who cares if they write characters that fit the setting if the writing itself is contrived? It's still flawed.

Yes, masquerading as an elf called Annatar is much simpler, but 300 years of advanced smithing classes is not particularly interesting or dramatic.

Neither is what we have right now lol. What is dramatic about the rings literally being made in 1 episode at the very end of this season? Are your standards so low that you were actually impressed by this? If anything, it felt incredibly rushed.

From there, he knows her crusade will guide her back to Middle Earth one way or another. It also doesn't seem too far fetched to believe that she'd still have some friends among the elves which would be his way to get close to Celebrimbor.

Yet the easier path is simply adapting the book lore and have him get in Celebrimbor's good graces directly from the start, rather than whatever convoluted explanation you're giving me that involves 'getting close to the enemy to get in their good graces'. The Silmarillion already outlined how that all played out, and it makes far more sense to simply adapt it through Annatar influencing Celebrimbor rather than make him a refugee thief/blacksmith/soldier/diplomat/king of the Southlands who happened to befriend the single high commander of the Elves who is hellbent on killing him.

What you call dramatic, I call contrived.

[Orby]

Rating Season one has been so hard for me I been going back and forth between a 4/10 to a 5/10... I hate giving scores lower than 5/10 especially when Rings of Power had so much good going for it the cinematography, the set design, the score, the sweeping shots and the CGI (for the most part), it just cannot bring it to hit 5/10 because of the flaws of the plot and dialogue all of which is the centrepiece of the show. I am more forgiving if the show had shit CGI and not very good effects and weak score, with really good story and great dialogue. This show goes to show just because you throw a lot of money at something doesn't make it good. If anything it felt they were compensating.

I also had to compare it to Wheel of Time which I overall gave a 5/10. I think Rings of Power as much as I disliked the show, had more going for it than the Wheel of Time, while suffering from similar issues.

I think I may reverse the scores and give WoT a 4/10 and give RoP a 5/10... I don't usually change scores, I have done so very rarely on imdb, but I feel maybe I was a little to nicer to WoT.

I am very conflicted lol

[Triceron]

You stated he authorized it. That shows his intent to authorize adaptations. Yet here you are debating it. Lmao. It doesn't matter if he would have wanted the 2nd age to be adapted because he authorized it to be adapted. His intent is clear.

His intent isn't clear - he sold the rights to pay off his tax debt. It's just as possible to draw a conclusion that his intent was on saving his estate at any cost, that being the film rights to LOTR and its appendices, to his regret.

Your conclusion isn't the only one that can be drawn here, that's the point. No one knows his intent, and it's not clear at all. That he sold the rights doesn't mean he was okay with the decision to do it, especially if we're talking about him selling the rights possibly because he had no other choice.

I mean let's not forget that he literally sold the rights for what he considered a 'very small amount'. I don't think that is a strong justification for him being okay and fine with the situation if he was getting a raw deal out of it, and had little choice but to pull the trigger on the deal because he had no alternative sources of fast cash. If so, the Hobbit, LOTR and its appendices being all part of the deal could have been what the film companies were asking for, rather than what Tolkien was offering willingly. For the situation he was in to get cash to pay off tax bills, he wouldn't be in control of the deal, it would actually be favouring the film companies who stipulate what exactly they want for the money they're offering. And if they knew Tolkien was strapped for the cash, they could push an all-or-nothing deal on him, making him accept it reluctantly because they knew he had little other choice. This is business we're talking about after all.

But hey, you're free to ignore this all and draw the conclusion that he was totally open to selling the rights because he intended the 2nd Age to be adapted to film despite the fact he sold it near the end of his life to settle tax bills. It's really up to you to continue putting forth bad faith arguments that the only thing that matters to you is he authorized the deal. I'm just gonna keep calling it out as it is.

[bledgor]

LOL what a trash can of an ending for Rings of Power. Surprised, as predicted Hal-totally not Saruon-brand was who most people on here called him to be. Add in the stranger being VERY strongly hinted to be Gandalf, and the repeated misuse of lines from Tolkien + Jackson's trilogy to only get you this sad finish.

Celebrimbor has continuously been trashed this entire series, from his looks, to the lose of status as dwarf friend and creator of the door to Khazad-dum. Now they make him such an idiotic smith he never considered using alloys? Guess Payne and Mckay never knew about alloys, and were told about them at the end of filming and thought wow we need to include this.

Galadriel suddenly realizes how much of a idiot she was from some lines Celebrimbor repeats from Halbrand, and uses ancient records to confront him? There were like a hundred ways he could have bullshitted his way out of it instead of immediately admitting he was Sauron, but whatever.

At least 1 harfoot died, so that is a plus.

What the fuck was up with the 3 ladies potentially being nazguls? Was that a subtle hint one is the "witch queen" with that crown? FUCK OFF AMAZON.

Before I had my score as: 1/10 as an adaptation, a 4/10 for a fantasy show. With this horrible ending (really trying to 1 up the WoT ending) I have to bring it down to 3/10 for fantasy. How do you take Tolkien plus over $60 million an episode and perform this fucking badly. It is mind boggling.

[Orby]

What the fuck was up with the 3 ladies potentially being nazguls? Was that a subtle hint one is the "witch queen" with that crown? FUCK OFF AMAZON.


.

I don't even know what that was, the way the show constantly throws out Easter eggs and member berries it could just be them going 'look, look, look,. they look like the Naz'ghul, you remember them right right? original trilogy? We are like them, love us, LOVE US'

something like that :P

[rhorle]

It's canon to the show which outright says he's dead. One thing this show absolutely cannot manage is subtle, much less subtle misdirection. So stop bullshitting and accept the obvious.

The show never said he was dead. It only said that she never saw him again. His fate is unknown. The x-ray trivia for the show even references how his fate is unknown, "Celeborn was kinsman of Thingol Grey-cloak, a King of Elves in the First Age. (Appendix B) He was last seen marching to a war from which he never returned - but his exact fate remains unknown"

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Because that was the budget that Miramax was capable of putting up. New Line didn't urge him, they encouraged him and, most of all, gave him a bigger budget.\

So I'm right but you are just using semantics to not admit it. Urged is the same as encouraged. They asked for the production to be bigger and grander. NLC was the driving force at getting those movies made. With out them it would have been a watered down hatchet-job of a script or not made at all.

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His intent isn't clear - he sold the rights to pay off his tax debt.

That seems clear enough. He authorized others to create adaptations in exchange for money. It really is as simple as that and you keep splitting hairs of "authorized" and "intent" to continue to argue it.

[tikcol]

What a dreadful mess. It's just a bad show in a vacuum, even forgetting this is supposed to be based on Tolkien.

We're talking about amateur levels of writing here. There's no saving this trash.