Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[InfiniteCharger]

Which is false since he broke up his work by only publishing some of it and selling the rights to some of it. His sale of rights didn't restrict to just "known stories". If the legendarium unpublished still represents his will then he would be fine with the parts of it being adapted. Because he already established he was fine with adaptations because of selling rights to make adaptations. You keep arbitrarily changing his "intent" based on the argument you are making at the time.

He did not. You keep arguing against reality. This is insanity. Just agree to disagree and stop replying. You aren't adding any new facts with your incessant repeating of your own made up nonsense.

The facts are that the Hobbit was a book that he never intended to publish. It was publishers who convinced him to publish it. And as a result of the popularity of it, they asked him for a sequel, which is how the Lord of the Rings came about. Those two works are complete stories and the only thing that he actually gave rights to for film. The rest of the legendarium was his own personal effort to expand on the history, culture and lore of Middle Earth and Arda which he never finished, which is why those other books were never published. It was his life's work as he explained in his own letters and therefore part of a complete history of a fictional world as told through various stories written by "other minds and hands" within the world of Arda over time. To sit here and argue that all of that was supposed to be broken up and reimagined by different companies and different people in different ways is false. He never intended for that to happen. Those works were published later by his son after he died, so that readers could see the ideas and concepts that he had in mind for the history of Arda which was vastly influential in helping define the genre of High Fantasy and by extension DnD and MMOs. They weren't published because Tolkien himself intended them to be used to make movies or TV shows and that is from the entire legendarium. And of course that means that he didn't spend all his life creating that legendarium to have someone take the appendices to totally trash his life's work by making up an alternate history separate from what he wrote.

Like I said, you are wrong and I disagree so please stop replying to me repeating yourself.

[bledgor]

This is the public its aimed for, and I'm left out of it, which explains why I dislike this show so much. Someone just wants to see high end production on their fancy big TV, and don't care about bonding with any of the characters.
Not sure how it's possible to get so bad writing in such a big supershow, but it has to be their aim, to write the show down, or else the same guys as your friend, would probably yawn and not feel impressed by his TV.

It just wasnt our turn to enjoy a good tolkien show, but it will come I'm sure.

Like a lot of modern media, the undertone is don't think just consume.

[rhorle]

Those two works are complete stories and the only thing that he actually gave rights to for film.

Right. So he was okay with splitting his work up piecemeal (separating it from the legendarium) and having people adapt it (selling the rights to the published works). His son then finished some of his work and sold some rights. The Estate then sold more rights. All following the a similar pattern of work being done piecemeal and selling rights for adaptations. Tolkien sold his rights so anyone could trash his "life's work". Saying that he made a distinction between which work could or could not be "trashed" is silly. He still sold the rights to allow that for his main work. Auxiliary work being held to a different standard is silly.

If you don't want to continue the conversation you are free to stop. Repeating that you want to stop over and over while continuing to respond is yet another contradiction you've made.

[InfiniteCharger]

Right. So he was okay with splitting his work up piecemeal (separating it from the legendarium) and having people adapt it (selling the rights to the published works). His son then finished some of his work and sold some rights. The Estate then sold more rights. All following the a similar pattern of work being done piecemeal and selling rights for adaptations. Tolkien sold his rights so anyone could trash his "life's work". Saying that he made a distinction between which work could or could not be "trashed" is silly. He still sold the rights to allow that for his main work. Auxiliary work being held to a different standard is silly.

If you don't want to continue the conversation you are free to stop. Repeating that you want to stop over and over while continuing to respond is yet another contradiction you've made.

Those two books being published separately does not mean the story was piecemeal. How is it that you have such a problem with facts that you have to constantly produce falsehoods? The Hobbit and LOTR were two completed works of fiction that go TOGETHER as a continuing story. How is that a piecemeal story? One is literally a continuation of the other, which reflects that his story was not piecemeal. The appendices were not published separately and not complete stories in and of themselves. He never intended for the appendices to be taken out of the LOTR to be used to make a totally made up story of the 2nd age, separate from the entire Legendarium he spent his life writing. He did not spend his whole life defining languages, geographies, genealogies and histories to make something piecemeal in his legendarium.

That is what I mean about you continuing to repeat falsehoods, no matter how many ways you try and say it. And I disagree. You just like spreading your own misinformation as fact....

[UnifiedDivide]

Like a lot of modern media, the undertone is don't think just consume.

He says, as he waits for the last episode to come out so he can watch it

[Soikona]

I'm honestly curious as to whether most British people (you know, Tolkien was actually one of them) and most Europeans, Australians, non-Americans actually enjoyed the show or not. So far the strongest defenders AND critics seem to be from mostly Americans fighting over weird culture war issues online, it's very difficult for me to tell whether most people outside the USA, where Amazon is based after all, thinks it's a worthy successor to Jackson and Tolkien's creative work. If any non-American Tolkien fan here can tell me what most of their friends think about the show, here or privately, I would be very grateful!

I will say though that Amazon is a multinational corporation with billions of dollars and its share of past scandals and allegations of considerable employee mistreatment. I also use Amazon occasionally, but that does certainly not make me blind to its moral failings and past mistakes, some progressive Democrats have strongly criticized its policies in the past. We shouldn't let fantasy entertainment blind us to some of the real issues at hand also, they are still a manifestion of extreme and unchecked capitalism.
https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...ions-warehouse
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/15/u...e-workers.html

Anyway, I watched several more episodes, and there was some improvement, I admit, Numenor was very impressive and beautiful, but the show itself still seems somewhat lacklustre and average at best, nothing that is breathtaking enough for me to view it as a timeless masterpiece.

Can’t speak for all, but as someone that is British, and anyone I have spoken to, we are all just “meh” about it. It’s just there if nothing else is on type of thing.

[Hitei]

Like a lot of modern media, the undertone is don't think just consume.

It's not really a modern thing. I do appreciate the irony of posting that sentiment while using a big 3 avatar though.

[rhorle]

Those two books were not publsihed piecemeal.

In regards to the legendarium they were, right? As they were published while the rest were not. You not understanding is not the same as making a false statement. You also said a complete story doesn't matter so the appendices not being complete is irrelevant. As they are part of the Legendarium and published so they must be included in the entirety of his work. You keep making arbitrary rules for why something doesn't apply in one case but does in another.

[Kathandira]

Not caught up just yet, but so far, Durin is my favorite. He is a faithful and fierce friend, a great and compassionate leader, and a loving family man. What more can you ask for!?

[Soikona]

This is the public its aimed for, and I'm left out of it, which explains why I dislike this show so much. Someone just wants to see high end production on their fancy big TV, and don't care about bonding with any of the characters.
Not sure how it's possible to get so bad writing in such a big supershow, but it has to be their aim, to write the show down, or else the same guys as your friend, would probably yawn and not feel impressed by his TV.

It just wasnt our turn to enjoy a good tolkien show, but it will come I'm sure.

For a totally out of the blue story for LOTR, the shadow of Mordor games are very good. I really enjoyed the story with them. Felt familiar enough to be lord of the rings, but distant enough to stand on its own legs.

Kinda how I felt with the halo series. It was good enough to be a good sci fi series without the halo name attached.

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Not caught up just yet, but so far, Durin is my favorite. He is a faithful and fierce friend, a great and compassionate leader, and a loving family man. What more can you ask for!?

Imo, Durin and Elrond were the best parts of the show. But I think that’s the delivery of the actors, more so than the script.

[Kathandira]

Imo, Durin and Elrond were the best parts of the show. But I think that’s the delivery of the actors, more so than the script.

I feel it is a combo. Their dialog together is well written, and the actors are nailing it.

[Veggie50]

Not caught up just yet, but so far, Durin is my favorite. He is a faithful and fierce friend, a great and compassionate leader, and a loving family man. What more can you ask for!?

Not to mention. Hi-la-ri-ous.

[bledgor]

It's not really a modern thing. I do appreciate the irony of posting that sentiment while using a big 3 avatar though.

It has gotten a bit more exacerbated recently. As for the avatar been the same one since I started over 12 years ago, and hey its a good character.

Also nice debut to the thread, nothing about the show, probably because its that bad.

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I feel it is a combo. Their dialog together is well written, and the actors are nailing it.

Elrond does okay, some bad some good. Durin III and IV though actually have some chops (same with Elendil). The dwarven parts are the saving grace of the show, as even with the issues I could enjoy them. If the rest of the show had been like this it would have at least been tolerable.

[Triceron]

Like a lot of modern media, the undertone is don't think just consume.

I do believe there is an unspoken side of the fanbase that has come to expect things like Hobbits and Wizards in any Tolkien related and just want raw 'generic' fantasy.

I'm already seeing such criticisms from the Star Wars fandom for Andor not having the classic Star Wars tropes of aliens and lightsabers and being too much of a slow burn, even if there's plenty of other Star Wars shows with that already. Andor is masterfully crafted and doesn't insult your intelligence, but that doesn't even matter to a sizeable chunk of the audience.

[bledgor]

I do believe there is an unspoken side of the fanbase that has come to expect things like Hobbits and Wizards in any Tolkien related and just want raw 'generic' fantasy.

I'm already seeing such criticisms from the Star Wars fandom for Andor not having the classic Star Wars tropes of aliens and lightsabers and being too much of a slow burn, even if there's plenty of other Star Wars shows with that already. Andor is masterfully crafted and doesn't insult your intelligence, but that doesn't even matter to a sizeable chunk of the audience.

See I like hobbits, but to me that isn't iconic Tolkien. Even the wizards, it isn't the normal "wizard". Most people think of WoW or dnd wizards, flinging spells and casting big magic. That wasn't Tolkien's wizards though, they always had the tone of wise old man rather than wizarding old man.

You could be right though, I just wonder how large that unspoken base is.

[jonnysensible]

hello im the elistist gatekeeper the sheeple have once again got this one wrong because they are uncultured and not a smart lad like me m'lady

[Xath]

hello im the elistist gatekeeper the sheeple have once again got this one wrong because they are uncultured and not a smart lad like me m'lady

The m'lady folks are the ones defending this trash but nice try mate.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The m'lady folks are the ones defending this trash but nice try mate.

Didn’t you post about how if some one skipped some parts of the novels they can’t be real Tolkien fans and shouldn’t be taken seriously in any thing they say?

[Triceron]

See I like hobbits, but to me that isn't iconic Tolkien. Even the wizards, it isn't the normal "wizard". Most people think of WoW or dnd wizards, flinging spells and casting big magic. That wasn't Tolkien's wizards though, they always had the tone of wise old man rather than wizarding old man.

You could be right though, I just wonder how large that unspoken base is.

It's in the millions, easily. It's the casual audience. It's people like my mom and dad, or my cousins who aren't as steeped in geek culture as me or my friends. It's the Marvel fans who haven't read a single comic, it's the gamers who only stick with playing mobile games.

I honestly don't blame Rings of Power for being 'watered down' and skipping over glaring plot holes for the sake of overdramatization, because the audience this show is aimed at is clearly the casuals who aren't going to be bothered by it rather than the enthusiasts. And as an enthusiast, I have to literally turn my brain off to enjoy this show. I wish it weren't the case, but that's the show. And I honestly don't blame it for choosing to be what it is.

I see this being similar to the Star Wars prequels. Rings of Power is just LOTR made for a different audience. It's not really for the Book fans, or dare I say even the original trilogy fans. It's got some stuff that is still LOTR, but it isn't the Original Trilogy that enthusiasts love. And that's still okay, because like Star Wars, the Prequels have their place even if they're not the best movies. And honestly, just because I personally don't like the prequels, and acknowledge that there are many people who also don't like the prequels, I still acknowledge that there's a HUGE fanbase in the millions who do like it. And that's okay.

This isn't my Lord of the Rings, but as a general Tolkien/Middle-Earth enthusiast, I'll still consume what we've got because it's what we've got. Much like I 'suffered' through the full 3 extended Hobbit movies, knowing that I didn't really enjoy them as much as I'd like to. All I can hope is for a Tolkien enthusiast with video editing skills will come around and maybe take a crack at making a more palettable version of the series that doesn't hold my hand through the story. As I say many times in this thread, the Maple cut of the Hobbit is one of my favourite versions of the film, and it makes the Hobbit Trilogy better by trimming the fat. And with Rings of Power, I think there's a lot of fat to trim.

[bledgor]

It's in the millions, easily. It's the casual audience. It's people like my mom and dad, or my cousins who aren't as steeped in geek culture as me or my friends. It's the Marvel fans who haven't read a single comic, it's the gamers who only stick with playing mobile games.

I honestly don't blame Rings of Power for being 'watered down' and skipping over glaring plot holes for the sake of overdramatization, because the audience this show is aimed at is clearly the casuals who aren't going to be bothered by it rather than the enthusiasts. And as an enthusiast, I have to literally turn my brain off to enjoy this show. I wish it weren't the case, but that's the show. And I honestly don't blame it for choosing to be what it is.

I see this being similar to the Star Wars prequels. Rings of Power is just LOTR made for a different audience. It's not really for the Book fans, or dare I say even the original trilogy fans. It's got some stuff that is still LOTR, but it isn't the Original Trilogy that enthusiasts love. And that's still okay, because like Star Wars, the Prequels have their place even if they're not the best movies. And honestly, just because I personally don't like the prequels, and acknowledge that there are many people who also don't like the prequels, I still acknowledge that there's a HUGE fanbase in the millions who do like it. And that's okay.

This isn't my Lord of the Rings, but as a general Tolkien/Middle-Earth enthusiast, I'll still consume what we've got because it's what we've got. Much like I 'suffered' through the full 3 extended Hobbit movies, knowing that I didn't really enjoy them as much as I'd like to. All I can hope is for a Tolkien enthusiast with video editing skills will come around and maybe take a crack at making a more palettable version of the series that doesn't hold my hand through the story. As I say many times in this thread, the Maple cut of the Hobbit is one of my favourite versions of the film, and it makes the Hobbit Trilogy better by trimming the fat. And with Rings of Power, I think there's a lot of fat to trim.

I think the difference is I rather rather not have trash and be left with nothing than try to pretend to be happy with trash.

Also I also know people that enjoyed the prequels and sequels (the normies if you will). From what they have said I think Amazon really fucked up with the lack of sensible time scale in the show, because if the normies have trouble following along you are depending on your characters to carry the interest. The characters in this have largely missed, and when you add on HotD is airing at the same time with Matt Smith having an amazing performance, can't help but laugh at the blunder by Amazon.

The prequels with the many, many issues it had at least had some great world building/expansion, that allowed for some of the most amazing games ever to be made. Perhaps Rings of Power will inspire some company to create an amazing Tolkien based game, I just don't get that feeling.

Also unless a fan edit removed Galadriel completely going to be hard to make this show good, she is just such an insufferable Karen.