Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[exochaft]

One of the stronger episodes and I really liked the mind-prison scene. It does make you wonder if Galadriel has unknowingly been doing Saurons bidding this entire time. Opens up for her husband to return if he was captured by the cult or in a similar "mind prison" so Sauron could get info about Galadriel.

Only thing 'strong' about this last episode was that things of importance actually happened... beyond that, it was terrible. Even if one didn't know the leaks about the show that were known when the series launched, the show stinks of Bad Robot/JJ Abrams (thanks for the writers/showrunners with only one uncredited writing credit prior to doing this show being hired due to JJ Abrams pushing for it). It's filled with the standard mystery boxes, red herrings, lack of subtlety, appealing to the lowest common denominator viewer, repurposing lines/scenes from better content, etc. that we've come to know from the JJ Abrams and Bad Robot style of creation to the point that the parallels between the RoP series and a movie like TROS are insanely apparent.

One of the biggest attempts as a red herring mystery box was "Who is Sauron? Is it this person? Nope, guess again!" that was done over and over... when it was patently obvious from the first introduction of Halbrand it was Sauron because these showrunners can't write. They're basically more concerned about baiting people than making things make sense, as well as making ship-bait out of Galadriel and Sauron. Another side effect of abandoning all logic to shoe-horn in a mystery box is that can ruin your characters, especially Galadriel. While people probably have forgotten a lot of the episodes at the start of the series, think back to how logical Galadriel's actions are when it comes to Sauron. The show runners want people to believe that Sauron seduced and manipulated Galadriel, but she was just an obtuse moron from the start. Who the hell even entertains the idea a smart person believing that someone is a king based upon an item in possession of a man who repeatedly tells you he's not the king and how he got the item? To be fair, Galadriel and Miriel are equally dense in this regard because there were warning flags since the beginning that any normal person would question what's going on. First thing a smart Miriel would've done (especially since they're supposed to be distrusting of elves for reasons) is question what Galadriel is telling her about Halbrand, check your records, and investigate Halbrand's background. However, the plot can't happen if your characters are smart, and your characteres are only as smart as the writer, so many dumb events/actions had to occur in order for their plot to happen.

I also think Galadriel even mentioning her husband was part of the reshoots because that scene is part of a sequence that makes logically no sense in terms of her and Theo abandoning everyone instantly. Also, the way Galadriel acts throughout the series just makes her come off as a heartless bastard who doesn't give a damn about her husband at all, despite both her husband and brother supposedly dying in a similar manner. Whenever Galadriel is to have an emotional scene due to her past, her husband only gets mentioned once to the point you could suspect she's a psychopath who murdered him and constantly forgets to mention or show the correct emotions about his death. Doubled down with Sauron trying to manipulate her through mind games, representing himself as her bloody brother and not her husband... unless she's a legitimate bro-con, wouldn't be surprised if they had her getting 'intimate' with her brother given how things have gone down.

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if her husband is dead but comes back anyways for reasons... again, a lot of the logic and writing style seen in TROS is present in RoP. My head canon is that he faked his death because he couldn't stand Galadriel, making him the first actual sympathetic character in the show. However, I wouldn't put it past the show runners to have a severe tonal shift with how Galadriel treats her husband in the next season if they're going to bait that he's alive. This should still just cement that the show runners really don't care about the lore, especially if there's a tonal change in the second season.

Man, there's so much wrong with the last episode alone that I can't do it justice in writing it down. I actually had to stop the episode several times while watching because my head hurt from how inept the logic and writing was, as even small things can unravel or reveal a lot of issues that cascade into a disaster. What's worse is that once I started thinking about stuff when the episode ended, the worse it got. When you start thinking back to the entire series, you realize that most of it was a waste of time going in circles about stuff that either doesn't matter or is meant to be mystery box and red herring fodder... you could've probably cut out 75% of this show and not lost anything of value, and that's me be very generous. RoP is the epitome of what's wrong with a lot of the entertainment being released nowadays, especially content that Bad Robot and its disciples touch.

Also its perfectly reasonable to me that there be some random unknown heir that he could be descended from.

That was instantly what I thought when that scene went down. Actually paused the show and said "Wait a minute, why is he doing the twirling mustache villian monologue and revealing his plan before it's done, and his grand idea is to convince Galadriel to just let his plan continue... when you could've just kept playing the con. Easiest solution is to just say you're descendent of a bastard child of the last king, which is why it wouldn't show up in the records... boom, done, not the best but perfectly plausable. They're probably just doing this to cause drama." Unpaused the show and sure enough, it's just to cause drama because everyone's an idiot in this show. Classic example of twisting your characters to make your plot happen rather than the plot happening based upon actions that are reasonable for your characters to make in their given situations... aka, it's a sign of bad writing.

[rhorle]

Yeah, no. They gave money. That's a significant contribution all right, but the driving force was Jackson, from start to finish, no matter how doomed the project may have been. New line didn't urge him to do more than he intended to do from the beginning, namely doing the work of Tolkien justice.

And yet Jackson was going to produce it all with $75 million budget for two films. It was NLC that urged him to add cut portions back and dream even bigger. It was NLC that got him to do it justice. Without NLC taking the helm it wouldn't have happened the way it did. It is silly to deny that.

[IIamaKing]

I really liked the episode but I think Galadriel was way too suspicious and how she came to the truth made no sense to me. Like this guy was fine to be just a normal smith. It was her that pushed him to even come to middle earth. Also its perfectly reasonable to me that there be some random unknown heir that he could be descended from.

Him coming out as Sauron at that point, under that accusation, made little sense to me. He could easily say, "I was happy to be a smith, you needed a figurehead to lead a charge for YOUR quest. You thrust upon me a crown I never asked for or eluded to being mine. I took the chance to better my station, have I done anything other than help you?" and leave it there.

[druchii5]

"I am...good."

What an unfortunate mess.

[Jotaux]

That was instantly what I thought when that scene went down. Actually paused the show and said "Wait a minute, why is he doing the twirling mustache villian monologue and revealing his plan before it's done, and his grand idea is to convince Galadriel to just let his plan continue... when you could've just kept playing the con. Easiest solution is to just say you're descendent of a bastard child of the last king, which is why it wouldn't show up in the records... boom, done, not the best but perfectly plausable. They're probably just doing this to cause drama." Unpaused the show and sure enough, it's just to cause drama because everyone's an idiot in this show. Classic example of twisting your characters to make your plot happen rather than the plot happening based upon actions that are reasonable for your characters to make in their given situations... aka, it's a sign of bad writing.

Yeah, I mean I was pretty sure he was just going to lie since its pretty flimsy evidence. Instead he like "you caught me! I'm Sauron!"

[rhorle]

Also, her husband is 100% dead. Please please stop wasting everyone's time with these inane posts.

Nothing has said her husband is 100% dead. Just as lines from a different IP can be a subtle misdirection. Until the show confirms it then it isn't confirmed.

[Jotaux]

Him coming out as Sauron at that point, under that accusation, made little sense to me. He could easily say, "I was happy to be a smith, you needed a figurehead to lead a charge for YOUR quest. You thrust upon me a crown I never asked for or eluded to being mine. I took the chance to better my station, have I done anything other than help you?" and leave it there.

I 100% agree.

[rhorle]

You're making as much of an egregious assumption here though. Just because a creator sold his property's film rights for money doesn't mean he is okay with the resulting adaptations, or even the decision to adapt it.

I am not. Tolkien sold rights so people can make adaptations. Whether or not he would like what people made is irrelevant. He actively decided to sell the rights. We even have him consulting on projects while still alive. Even though he hated the script and changes he also didn't want to kill the project because he liked the imagery. None of this discussion is about Tolkien being happy with how Rings of Power adapted his story. Stop creating a strawman just so you can insert yourself into an argument.

[Kumorii]

Him coming out as Sauron at that point, under that accusation, made little sense to me. He could easily say, "I was happy to be a smith, you needed a figurehead to lead a charge for YOUR quest. You thrust upon me a crown I never asked for or eluded to being mine. I took the chance to better my station, have I done anything other than help you?" and leave it there.

Problem is that they wanted Galadriel to catch him out... but couldn't think of a proper way to deliver it.

[Triceron]

I am not. Tolkien sold rights so people can make adaptations. Whether or not he would like what people made is irrelevant. He actively decided to sell the rights. We even have him consulting on projects while still alive. Even though he hated the script and changes he also didn't want to kill the project because he liked the imagery. None of this discussion is about Tolkien being happy with how Rings of Power adapted his story. Stop creating a strawman just so you can insert yourself into an argument.

Yeah but you are making assumptions by drawing a conclusion that because he did something earlier in his life, he would be fine with it happening after he already dismissed the entire effort as being 'unfilmable' later in his life. You're molding the facts to fit your argument, rather than sensibly assessing that no one really knows the conclusion and you and IC are merely disagreeing over the same point, rather than either of you proving what is right or wrong.

I'm not the one claiming he would be fine with the decisions he made. No one has that information, so yes I'm calling you out on drawing a conclusion for something you absolutely have no knowing for real. It's not a strawman argument at all, it's literally something you are claiming.

And to be fair, IC is also making false claims on the other side of the argument. The only answer here is that no one knows what Tolkien would react concerning 2nd Age adaptation, because such a thing would not have been fathomable at the time he sold off the rights, considering the main body of work had not been properly adapted in Live Action in the first place. The appendices alone do not even have enough material to sustain a full story, which is part of the problems with Rings of Power right now.

[rhorle]

Yeah but you're twisting facts

I am not. He was fine with adaptations of his work while he was alive but several projects fell through. Even ones where he thought it butchered his concept he didn't want to kill. This implies that Tolkien was fine with adaptations being made. There is no twisting of the facts here to reach that conclusion.

It doesn't matter if he did it for the money and paying a tax bill. What matters is that it was done at all. He came to terms with his work being adapted. The price he set to allow that to happen is irrelevant. He sold off his rights at the same time UA was trying to get a project off the ground with Tolkien. Instead of letting others try UA locked it down.

It is a strawman because you are arguing things I've never made and twisting the facts to support that made up conclusion. I've also said from the start that we can't know what Tolkien would think because he is dead. That still doesn't mean he would be against an adaptation for the reasons outlined by the other poster. I get you feel left out of a discussion but there is no reason to come into this inventing things just out of boredom.

[Xath]

It is by definition gate keeping to think you define where one being a fan starts and ends.

You know what I'm a huge baseball fan I haven't watched a game in like a decade but occasionally I watch highlights if they are on sports center so I'm definitely an authority on baseball.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You know what I'm a huge baseball fan I haven't watched a game in like a decade but occasionally I watch highlights if they are on sports center so I'm definitely an authority on baseball.

So being a fan and an authority of something is the same thing now? One can’t be one without being another?

[Gumble]

I hate you. Because I never knew they desecrated the Sword of Truth. Now, I know

The Mord-Sith were "ok".... the rest.... bleh

- - - Updated - - -

I too was disappointed with the Shannara adaptation. IMO if a fantasy series can't be done with the same level of care as Jackson's LotR trilogy or Harry Potter (at minimum) then they should try doing it as an anime first. If that succeeds, then maybe move on to live action.

Otherland
Memory, Sorrow & Thorn
Dragonlance
Thomas Covenant Chronicles

Oh, you have no idea. My wife's favorite series is/was Harry Potter..... I look at her movies, then at Amazon's Wheel of Time and go "C'MON MAN, SERIOUSLY"

[rhorle]

You know what I'm a huge baseball fan I haven't watched a game in like a decade but occasionally I watch highlights if they are on sports center so I'm definitely an authority on baseball.

You mean you would have to watch every baseball game in order to be a fan of baseball. You couldn't just watch one or two and call yourself a fan. If time from last read through was the litmus for being a Tolkien fan I'm guessing most people in the world would no longer be one.

[VinceVega]

I really LOVED the last epsiode. It was all throughout gripping.
I know people will never admit that because the would have to go back on 2 years of constent hate... but still had to say it.
It was the first epsidoe i also really liked galadriel. Seams like she is developing good. Bit fast for an immortal elf but i like where this is going.

Looked amazing. Good acting. Satisfying end to a first season. Although i missed the dwarves.

Also: Celeborn is alive. They said as much in interviews. Not outwright but like "there is always season 2". Galadriel didn't even say he is dead just he is lost to her no?

[InfiniteCharger]

No one has ever claimed that the rights Amazon bought came directly from JRR Tolkien. Stop creating arguments in your head just because it is easier for you to defeat then the truth. The rights are complicated. Did you know that MGM had the rights to publish The Hobbit? As those were not sold to the Saul Zaentz Company but retained by UA? Rights also sometimes revert as New Line Cinema was going to have their rights to The Hobbit revert in 2010.

We were discussing if an adaptation would have been allowed. You've argued for pages that Tolkien was against adaptations and the second age never would have been approved. I've argued the opposite. That Tolkien was fine with adaptations and the second age wouldn't be an exception. Piecemeal comes into this because he didn't publish his entire legendarium yet it is to be taken as a whole. Hence it being published in 4 pieces. I never once said JRR sold the rights to a piece of a book. Once again you show that you need to invent delusions because you can't handle being wrong. Lmao.

No, we are discussing whether this series represent Tolkien's intent when he sold the rights for those 2 books.

Because this is what you have been trying to imply in this entire discussion, starting with this post:

If Tolkien intended his work to be treated like real world mythology then he would be fine with adaptations of his work. This is because real world mythology has been adapted for centuries. Even Tolkien reflected this in his work by modeling a lot of his stuff on his religious views but not as direct as C.S. Lewis did.

And you just keep making up stuff to justify that position which has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

All the letters he wrote about the movie treatment shows clearly he had strong opinions on how his work should be treated.


The rights he sold for those two books do not cover this series, which is why they had to be created via a loophole.

Therefore they do not represent the original intent of Tolkien when he sold the movie rights.

Somehow you just have a problem with reality and like repeating yourself.

Him creating a mythology within the narrative of his fictional world does not mean that this series reflects his intent.

You just keep making up falsehoods and keep being hilariously wrong.

This show is its own animal that is in no way a reflection of Tolkien' intent.

And according to you, it shouldn't need to reflect his intent in order to exist.

So why go on and on about his intent when you are contradicting yourself?

You defend the show doing what they want but then argue it is the same as what Tolkien wanted.

But it can't be if they are doing what they want.

So pick one. It cant be both.

[rhorle]

Because this is what you have been trying to imply in this entire discussion, starting with this post:

The discussion started long before that post. That was just the post where your own statements supported what I've been saying. I haven't once contradicted myself in my posts. You have invented entire claims you think I've said. Just like you still say I've claimed the show is canon or that Tolkien would have written the show the exact same way.

Tolkien approved of adaptations. That is a simple fact. Instead of acknowledging that you've sought various was change that fact. You've said published works only. You've said it has to be the whole. You've said it needs to be treated like real world history and myths (even though those get adapted all the time). You keep contradicting and changing your stance as you think of new ways to claim Tolkien would be against an adaptation.

Tolkien was fine with adaptations. That doesn't mean he would be fine with the story Amazon picked for Rings of Power. Two difference concepts that you wrongly conflate.

[InfiniteCharger]

And to be fair, IC is also making false claims on the other side of the argument. The only answer here is that no one knows what Tolkien would react concerning 2nd Age adaptation, because such a thing would not have been fathomable at the time he sold off the rights, considering the main body of work had not been properly adapted in Live Action in the first place. The appendices alone do not even have enough material to sustain a full story, which is part of the problems with Rings of Power right now.

I am not wrong in that Tolkien did not intend the appendices to be used by themselves for a story of the second age.
That would contradict the entire purpose of him spending most of his life trying to define that story along with prior ages.

That we do know and we have letters from him stating it and I already posted the content of one of them where he did.

[Triceron]

I am not. He was fine with adaptations of his work while he was alive but several projects fell through. Even ones where he thought it butchered his concept he didn't want to kill. This implies that Tolkien was fine with adaptations being made. There is no twisting of the facts here to reach that conclusion.

It doesn't matter if he did it for the money and paying a tax bill. What matters is that it was done at all. He came to terms with his work being adapted. The price he set to allow that to happen is irrelevant. He sold off his rights at the same time UA was trying to get a project off the ground with Tolkien. Instead of letting others try UA locked it down.

It is a strawman because you are arguing things I've never made and twisting the facts to support that made up conclusion. I've also said from the start that we can't know what Tolkien would think because he is dead. That still doesn't mean he would be against an adaptation for the reasons outlined by the other poster. I get you feel left out of a discussion but there is no reason to come into this inventing things just out of boredom.

That Tolkien was fine with adaptations and the second age wouldn't be an exception

You don't know the second age wouldn't be an exception.

Even today, the rights to the Silmarillion are not available for film rights adaptations. How Tolkien would regard the film rights to his unfinished notes is not known, so there can't be any way to determine exceptions or not.

I'm clearly debunking this specific claim which you actually did make. You can't imply it when you literally do not know.