Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

I am not wrong in that Tolkien did not intend the appendices to be used by themselves for a story of the second age.

He already contradicted what you think his entire purpose was by only selling the rights to some of his work. Did he ever state that the appendices were not to be adapted into anything?

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You don't know the second age wouldn't be an exception.

The rights he sold covered what was mentioned in the Appendices. Trying to claim that he didn't want those parts adapted even though he sold the rights to those parts is folly.

[InfiniteCharger]

The discussion started long before that post. That was just the post where your own statements supported what I've been saying. I haven't once contradicted myself in my posts. You have invented entire claims you think I've said. Just like you still say I've claimed the show is canon or that Tolkien would have written the show the exact same way.

Tolkien approved of adaptations. That is a simple fact. Instead of acknowledging that you've sought various was change that fact. You've said published works only. You've said it has to be the whole. You've said it needs to be treated like real world history and myths (even though those get adapted all the time). You keep contradicting and changing your stance as you think of new ways to claim Tolkien would be against an adaptation.

Tolkien was fine with adaptations. That doesn't mean he would be fine with the story Amazon picked for Rings of Power. Two difference concepts that you wrongly conflate.

All you keep saying is that him selling the rights to the two books means he was fine with a television series "adaptation" of the second age being made solely based on the appendices. That is just factually incorrect because no such thing was included in the rights he sold.

Then on top of that, you claim that because he sold those rights, that he would be OK with whatever studios came up with, such as Amazon for their second age story. Again, no. The volume of letters showing his disgust at many ideas that were put forward shows clearly he would not have been OK with whatever studios came up with for books, let alone the 2nd age. And Amazon's series was basically given the green light to make up a whole bunch of things in their second age story because they didn't have the rights. So it isn't even adaptation in the first place and they don't even call it that. They just have the rights to use certain characters and places from Tolkien in that made up story.

[Myradin]

I almost feel like we need a second thread for this rights debate. Feels like discussion of the actual show is consumed by it.

[InfiniteCharger]

He already contradicted what you think his entire purpose was by only selling the rights to some of his work. Did he ever state that the appendices were not to be adapted into anything?

The rights were to make a movies based on the two books and potentially television series less than 8 episodes. Thats it.
If Warner Brothers decided to make a movie based on the appendices covering parts of the second age, they can.
But whether that means that those movies reflect Tolkien's intent for the second age is a totally different animal.
Again, the rights and Tolkiens intent are two totally separate and different things.
The rights mean that Amazon can make up whatever kind of story they want and don't have to follow Tolkien at all.
And that is obvious in what they are doing with this series. To claim this has anything to do with Tolkien is dishonest.

[rhorle]

All you keep saying is that him selling the rights to the two books means he was fine with a television series "adaptation" of the second age being made solely based on the appendices.

I never said a Television series. I said that he was fine with the appendices being adapted into whatever because they were part of the rights he sold. It is a bit silly to make the distinction between Television and Movie at this late in the discussion. The rights he sold didn't require approval by him or his estate, did he? So of course he would have to be okay with whatever was created. He removed his right to control everything when he sold the rights.

Amazon has called the show an adaptation. It just isn't a faithful one. Anything they do would be made up. The Jackson films were made up. Every Tolkien adaptation failed and realized made up a story based on what Tolkien wrote. Amazon just made up more then the others did. WB is doing the same with their anime just like they did with the video games.

[Triceron]

I am not wrong in that Tolkien did not intend the appendices to be used by themselves for a story of the second age.
That would contradict the entire purpose of him spending most of his life trying to define that story along with prior ages.

That we do know and we have letters from him stating it and I already posted the content of one of them where he did.

It works both ways for the point that Rhorle is making. Whether he'd be fine or not with that happening would not be known even if he did not intend it to happen. A situation like Rings of Power is very particular to today's post-LOTR Live Action trilogy age, and we don't know what Tolkien's limits were when assigning the appendices as part of the material that the rights cover. Considering there is so much (2nd Age) material in the appendices themselves that could have easily been adapted within LOTR/Hobbit, it's hard to determine what he may have thought about a completely separate project dedicated to the 2nd Age and in what scope. It's not a conversation that was ever really had in the context of what we have now with Rings of Power.

TLDR; we don't know what Tolkien would have thought of a 2nd Age project like Rings of Power.

[rhorle]

If Warner Brothers decided to make a movie based on the appendices covering parts of the second age, they can.

And yet you've been arguing that Tolkien wouldn't have wanted those things adapted. Isn't it strange now that you've moved the goal posts to only apply to Television you use the 2nd age being adapted to support yourself? The discussion has never been about what Tolkien intended the 2nd age to be. We are not discussing canon. Stop trying to make this about canon.

Any rights to Tolkien's work mean that a person can make up whatever they want. That is the whole concept behind owning the rights.

[Triceron]

The rights he sold covered what was mentioned in the Appendices. Trying to claim that he didn't want those parts adapted even though he sold the rights to those parts is folly.

Just because the appendices covered parts of it does not mean he would be fine with a standalone adaptation of the Second Age. That's a whole different conclusion which you've drawn which has zero factual bearing. You're just making an assumption and passing it off as implied fact. That's a fallacy in itself.

You could say that Tolkien sold the rights so he couldn't do anything about it. But you can't imply that he'd be okay with something that he clearly did not have an intention to agree upon when he sold the rights. We have no insight to the state of his thoughts on what he actually intends with the film rights of his body of work, whether he cared for it or whether he simply resigned himself to accept any outcome and distance himself from them. So what is being implied by the selling of the rights has nothing to do with whether Tolkien is actually 'fine' with the decision, because being fine or okay with a decision is not an exclusively implied conclusion to having made it.

It's like if we were talking about Sophie's Choice and you argue that she was fine with her decision because she ultimately made the choice. That would be an argumentative fallacy. The entire moral of that story is about making (hard) decisions that one is not okay with that they have to live with the rest of their lives.

[DarkAmbient]

Finale happened and everyone's droning on about some tedious bullshit because they can't be wrong on the internet

[rhorle]

Just because the appendices covered parts of it does not mean he would be fine with a standalone adaptation of the Second Age. That's a whole different conclusion which you've drawn which has zero factual bearing. You're just making an assumption and passing it off as implied fact. That's a fallacy in itself.

He sold the rights. That means he gave his approval for anything contained in those rights to be adapted. In whole or in part. Even Mr. Jackson cut stuff out and very few people try to gate keep him adapting the books in the first place. I'm not assuming anything but the facts. Selling the rights implied that Tolkien came to terms with those things being adapted.

[InfiniteCharger]

I never said a Television series. I said that he was fine with the appendices being adapted into whatever because they were part of the rights he sold. It is a bit silly to make the distinction between Television and Movie at this late in the discussion. The rights he sold didn't require approval by him or his estate, did he? So of course he would have to be okay with whatever was created. He removed his right to control everything when he sold the rights.

Amazon has called the show an adaptation. It just isn't a faithful one. Anything they do would be made up. The Jackson films were made up. Every Tolkien adaptation failed and realized made up a story based on what Tolkien wrote. Amazon just made up more then the others did. WB is doing the same with their anime just like they did with the video games.

You keep saying he would have been OK with any kind of "adaptation" is the problem because we know he would not have.

There are far too many of his letters showing that he would not have been for you to even claim this.

And no, Amazon doesn't call this an adaptation outside of misleading marketing talk.

If you watch the actual show at the end of every episode it says just the opposite.

I have quoted this for you already on this very thread.

This series is almost completely made up. There is no real debate about it. And they themselves have stated it.

[rhorle]

Finale happened and everyone's droning on about some tedious bullshit because they can't be wrong on the internet

What else is there to discuss? Dislike of the show for the 100th time? People have shared their thoughts on the episode and it gets little traction. Even you yourself choose not to comment on those in favor of tedious BS.

[downnola]

No, we are discussing whether this series represent Tolkien's intent when he sold the rights for those 2 books.

The only other person close enough to Tolkien's work to be informed on the matter is Christopher Tolkien and he's not around to give his opinion. Not that it would matter much. I can't count how many times I've seen someone say the Jackson films were true representations of Lord of the Rings despite Christopher claiming otherwise. Was he right? If the actual gatekeeper and editor of his father's work isn't an authority on the subject then who is?

Instead of claiming to know the opinions of people who are dead and can't speak for themselves, we could just ask if the series stays true to Tolkien's themes and tell a good story. After watching the last episode, there are parts that I think do and some that don't. Considering how much money has gone into this series, I think it's safe to say it's not living up to it's potential.

[rhorle]

You keep saying he would have been OK with any kind of "adaptation" is the problem because we know he would not have.

And yet he sold the rights for people to adapt his work however they wanted to. Action speaks louder then words here. We can infer from those words what he may have thought of certain adaptations but it is still clear that he gave consent for adaptations to occur.

Amazon calls Rings of Power an adaptation. Every episode the X-ray trivia state it is based on certain parts of Tolkien's work. Amazon states it was inspired by, though not contained in, the original source material in the credits. Aka an adaptation. Based on, Inspired by, and whatever else are all different way to refer to an adaptation of a work.

[callipygoustp]

LOL at that finale: I am Sauron!!!!

Bahahahahahaha. What a fucking joke. Tolkien must be turning over in his grave.

[InfiniteCharger]

And yet he sold the rights for people to adapt his work however they wanted to. Action speaks louder then words here. We can infer from those words what he may have thought of certain adaptations but it is still clear that he gave consent for adaptations to occur.

Amazon calls Rings of Power an adaptation. Every episode the X-ray trivia state it is based on certain parts of Tolkien's work. Amazon states it was inspired by, though not contained in, the original source material in the credits. Aka an adaptation. Based on, Inspired by, and whatever else are all different way to refer to an adaptation of a work.

Yes, he sold the rights, but those companies went to him for his advice on what they were going to do.

Obviously, rights and his intent are two different things. I don't see how you don't understand that.

Otherwise, why did these studios ask him for advice if the rights were enough for the to proceed?

Because from a marketing perspective, it would be bad to have the author dislike the end result.

And he is now dead, so his intent is almost irrelevant because he cannot voice his opinion anyway.

His intent for the 2nd age is summarized in the appendices and more fleshed out in other works he never published.

Therefore, he never intended those to be adapted because he hadn't finished them.

Yes, the appendices were published but they do not fully represent his intent for the 2nd age.

That is the distinction being made here and again, he is dead and cannot finish what he started.

Therefore, whatever anybody does with the 2nd age can never match what he never fully completed.

But his intent was absolutely clear nevertheless.

From one of his letters:

In order of time, growth and composition, this stuff began with me – though I do not suppose that that is of much interest to anyone but myself. I mean, I do not remember a time when I was not building it. Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write. But I have never stopped, and of course, as a professional philologist (especially interested in linguistic aesthetics), I have changed in taste, improved in theory, and probably in craft. Behind my stories is now a nexus of languages (mostly only structurally sketched). But to those creatures which in English I call misleadingly Elves* are assigned two related languages more nearly completed, whose history is written, and whose forms (representing two different sides of my own linguistic taste) are deduced scientifically from a common origin. Out of these languages are made nearly all the names that appear in my legends. This gives a certain character (a cohesion, a consistency of linguistic style, and an illusion of historicity) to the nomenclature, or so I believe, that is markedly lacking in other comparable things. Not all will feel this as important as I do, since I am cursed by acute sensibility in such matters.

But an equally basic passion of mine ab initio was for myth (not allegory!) and for fairy-story, and above all for heroic legend on the brink of fairy-tale and history, of which there is far too little in the world (accessible to me) for my appetite. I was an undergraduate before thought and experience revealed to me that these were not divergent interests – opposite poles of science and romance – but integrally related. I am not ‘learned’** in the matters of myth and fairy-story, however, for in such things (as far as known to me) I have always been seeking material, things of a certain tone and air, and not simple knowledge. Also – and here I hope I shall not sound absurd – I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and found (as an ingredient) in legends of other lands. There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish (which greatly affected me); but nothing English, save impoverished chap-book stuff. Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its ‘faerie’ is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion.

https://www.tolkienestate.com/letter...ublisher-1951/

The point here being made in this letter is that this world was a personal passion project for him from a young age. And originally he did not intend to publish the Hobbit as he didn't think people would like it. But his goal was to finish developing this world with its languages, cultures, mythologies and histories for his own purposes. It wasn't his intent for this to be a movie, television show or any other kind of "adapted" story as opposed to a work of personal passion to develop all those things he mentions to his own satisfaction. That is the ultimate intent of JRR Tolkien with his work and it wasn't to make movies or films. He was a writer and his passion was in writing and languages.



This series is not an adaptation as Amazon puts at the end of every episode:

"This production contains dialogue, characters and places that were inspired by, though not contained in the original source material"

So it is not a literal adaptation because there was no literal story that they are adapting.

They are making up characters, dialog and places and therefore, that is why this is included in the end credits.

Because the appendices are not a complete story that can be adapted by themselves with full dialog, characters and events.

[rhorle]

This series is not an adaptation as Amazon puts at the end of every episode:

That is them saying it is an adaptation. Lmao. The word you are looking for is faithful and not literal. It is not a faithful adaptation but it is an adaptation. Jackson made up cahracter, dialog, and places but his films were still adaptations.

It may have been a personal passion project for JRR Tolkien but it ended with him selling the rights that allowed people to make use of all or part of his books to create a story they wanted to tell. It is why we have video games, songs, RPG books, toys, etc that all only use the parts of his work that they wanted to use. Things that he gave up control of. You again create a strawman because not once has anyone said the ultimate goal of his work was to make moves or films (the same thing lol). He did however sell the rights so others could create those things based off of some of his work.

You can keep trying to deny that Tolkien sold the rights all you want. It won't change that fact. It doesn't even matter if he would have been happy about selling his rights. All that matter is he sold up his rights and gave up creative control in the process.

[Triceron]

The rights he sold covered what was mentioned in the Appendices. Trying to claim that he didn't want those parts adapted even though he sold the rights to those parts is folly.

But you can't draw a conclusion that he was okay with the appendices being adapted in film.

You don't know the details of the deal. What if it was the film companies that said they wouldn't pay for the rights unless they get the full body of works, which includes the appendices in the deal, and Tolkien was really strapped for the cash to pay off his debts? Your account doesn't take that possibility into consideration at all, that the nature of the deal could have been in favour of the film companies and not for Tolkien in a position that he would be happy or even okay about. And this is especially the case when we know he did sell the rights to deal with his tax bills.

You can't imply this was a situation for Tolkien that results in him being okay with the full decision when it's clear that we don't know the exact nature of how he regarded the deal. It could have been a win-win situation where he was open to films adapting his work in any way he saw fit. It could have been a lose-lose situation where he was so strapped for cash that it threatened losing his entire estate if he couldn't settle the debts, and selling the film rights was the only reasonable way out. We don't know the situation, so we can't simply assess this as 'He would be okay with it because he made the decision'.

Just like you can't just arbitrarily say Sophie was okay with her Choice just because she made it and was able to live on with life after that. 'Being okay with it' is intent, and that is something you can't prove simply by pointing out the fact that it happened.

Just like I can point out the example of George Lucas regretting his decision to sell Star Wars. Just because he was okay with the decision to sell it for a shit ton of cash doesn't mean he is okay with the decision he has made in retrospect. The fact he made the decision and was okay with the decision at one point in time isn't relevant to how he feels after the deal was made. You're literally using one point in time as being an indicator to how he would feel forever after, and that's outright delusional logic.

[rhorle]

But you can't draw a conclusion that he was okay with the appendices being adapted in film.

Sure you can because they were part of the rights he sold. He might not have been happy about it but his intent was clearly to sell the rights to adapt those things into film. The details of the deal are not important. It doesn't matter if the film companies negotiated those being included because Tolkien still signed the deal. It doesn't matter if he only did it because he needed money because he still did it. We are discussing his intent not what he thought of his intent. It is quite clear the deal was in favor of the film companies because of how much was given away and how little it got. That still doesn't matter.

He still signed the deal. He was still okay with creative control of the things in the deal going to others. The rest is just you trying to assume different scenarios to try and decide what his personal thoughts were on the subject. Something you just got done saying we can't do, right? All we know the facts and those facts have Tolkien signing a deal to give the rights to create whatever from his two books.

[Triceron]

Sure you can because they were part of the rights he sold

Then you're implying a bad faith argument.

Simple as that.

You're using an argumentative fallacy that the ends justifies the means, and honestly that doesn't work when applied to a theoretical situation that has never happened. It's like implying Sophie would be okay with killing any or all of her children because she already made the choice to kill one of them. Argumentative fallacy, and for the sake of a bad faith argument.

It doesn't matter if he only did it because he needed money because he still did it. We are discussing his intent not what he thought of his intent

That's where you're wrong, because the topic is whether he would have intended the 2nd Age to be adapted and that isn't clearly defined as part of his original decision.

Just like 'Sophie would have been okay with killing any or all of her children' isn't part of the original decision to pick one to die. You can't just draw a blanket conclusion because a certain decision was made. That's taking the decision out of context and arguing that it applies to any other theoretical situation, without any regard for the situational context. And you can see clearly by my example that by twisting the facts out of context, you could reframe Sophie as a monster who is willing to kill all her children because she had made a decision at one point in her life to allow one to die. That's exactly what you're doing here.