Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Ghost of Cow]

The entire Southlands storyline felt like one big red herring, but eh. At least it gave us Adar who was interesting compared to the rest of the cast.

[bledgor]

The entire Southlands storyline felt like one big red herring, but eh. At least it gave us Adar who was interesting compared to the rest of the cast.

Honestly felt better/cared more for Adar than just about every "good" character, especially Galadriel.

[rhorle]

How about what he's actually going to be doing and an indication of what his role may be in the future? We practically get that with every other major POV character in the series, even Nori.

So Season 2?

[Skulltaker]

And yet he was working with a watered down script and pitching that script to other studios. So he was clearly more interested in adapting the books then remaining faithful. I'm not grossly misrepresenting the situation. You are nitpicking between encourage and urged. New Line Cinema were the ones that got the movies to be as grand as they are.

No, he wasn't. Stop lying. It was Miramax who tried to force him to water it down, and New Line gave him the funding to add the cut parts back.

[Triceron]

So Season 2?

Yes, an indication for what he's set up for in Season 2.

We don't have that at all. Going to a location doesn't set up what the character's motivations in the aftermath. He's a watcher of the Southlands, so is he planning to continue doing that or is he going to take on a new path or what? We have no clue what his motivations are after the whole burning of the Southlands.

They gave everyone else pretty clear motivations leading into the next season with the last two episodes, except for Arondir and Isildur.

[Skulltaker]

How about what he's actually going to be doing and an indication of what his role may be in the future? We practically get that with every other major POV character in the series, even Nori.

Right now, you basically have Schrödingers story line. You don't know if it's going to be good or bad, because the end is open. Was the setup terrible? Sure. Maybe they can salvage it, maybe not. If you don't finish your stories, no-one can tell (yet) if it's going to be good or bad. All we know so far is that the beginning was fucking terrible.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, an indication for what he's set up for in Season 2.

We don't have that at all. Going to a location doesn't set up what the character's motivations in the aftermath. He's a watcher of the Southlands, so is he planning to continue doing that or is he going to take on a new path or what? We have no clue what his motivations are after the whole burning of the Southlands.

Because they're just throwing as much shit at the wall as they can to see what sticks. That's why you get 5 C stories and not a single good one.

They're always at the edge of something interesting, and then they trash it. It's like watching a baker correctly measure all ingredients and then accidentally drop the entire box of salt into the pot after he combined everything.

[Raelbo]

It is the Tolkien estate who created the idea to use the appendices as the source of the "rights" for this show. And because they don't have the rights to almost anything else in the legendarium, not to mention the appendices not being full stories in themselves, they are required to "make up" a story. So by definition they were given basically rights to make up a story using characters and locations from LOTR but without all the rights to actually make a true prequel to it. So at this point this show just exists in its own fictional continuity literally separate from anything in the books. That is just a side effect of how the rights were parceled out.

This, in and of itself, should not pose a problem. There are huge gaps in Tolkien's story. Nothing stops the creators of this show from using their knowledge of the rest of Tolkien's writing to ensure that this story does not contradict any of what Tolkien wrote.

That itself is totally separate from whether the end result is "good" or "popular" all depend on the end product itself. Just because it has the Lord of the Rings name on it doesn't automatically make it good or popular. At the end of the day, I believe Amazon has an albatross on its hands, because they didn't actually have a compelling story that they really wanted to tell. And they literally thought just having the rights to use the name "Lord of the Rings" was enough to market the show and make it popular. That is silly thinking.

Well of course, if they want a great show on their hands, they need a compelling story that fits well into the world Tolkien created. There is zero basis for claiming that this cannot be done. Whether it actually will is another question.

I'm just taking from the way you're writing that you believe this is a show that should never have been created because the premise is fundamentally flawed. That it was doomed from the start because they don't have the rights to everything. And I don't agree with that position

Yes of course. The distinction I was getting at is that it is the job of the producers to make fantastical things look "realistic" even though it is not based on reality.

I am not convinced you're understanding what I am saying. You keep fixating on this idea that the combat needs to look realistic (ie as it would if it actually existed). What I am saying is that *realistic* and *what looks good on screen* are two very different things.

Therefore the argument that the combat on screen doesn't look good because it doesn't look *realistic* enough is fundamentally flawed. Now it's fine to argue that you don't like the look of the choreography and that it's not well suited to the show. But you're not going to fix that problem by making it look more realistic. That would just make the problem even worse.

Take a look at these two examples:

First is the final scene from the film Rob Roy. Certainly, in my opinion at least, an amazing looking combat.

Now compare it to the Men's Epee Final at the Tokyo Olympics. These guys are basically the best fencers in the world.

They look nothing almost alike. I draw your attention to a hit made at 15:05 into the Fencing Final. It is a superb hit in my estimation. Extremely clean. But blink and you miss it. Note how small, how precise the bladework is. It's all done in the fingers. The other critical element is the footwork. Compare that to Rob Roy. Huge, flashy sword swings, including taking the sword behind his head before slashing forward. Putting the left shoulder forward instead of the right. Spinning around. I mean seriously what the actual fuck?!? If it was a real swordfight against a real swordman, either of these combatants would be dead in seconds if they actually employed the techniques shown in the movie.

But...

It looks amazing. If they took the olympic fencing and put that in instead, the audience would likely be bored stiff and then in a blink it would be over. It's just not very entertaining to watch.

Now, I totally get that, as modern audiences, our perception of "realism" is massively skewed by how hollywood portrays swordplay. And I guess that's fine. All I am saying though, is that if you're going to come and make an argument about the "realism" of medieval combat in a film or tv show, then at least do a bit of homework so that you know what you're talking about.

TL;DR: Is choreography and showmanship important in cinematic combat important? Absolutely! Is realism in cinematic combat important? Absolutely not. In fact it's completely undesirable.

[Triceron]

Right now, you basically have Schrödingers story line. You don't know if it's going to be good or bad, because the end is open. Was the setup terrible? Sure. Maybe they can salvage it, maybe not. If you don't finish your stories, no-one can tell (yet) if it's going to be good or bad. All we know so far is that the beginning was fucking terrible.

Exactly my point, really. I think the pacing of S1 is terrible, even with the full season out now. All the problems pointed out since the first two episodes were released remains here and now, with pacing problems throughout the entire season. Everything was revealed super slowly, with emphasis on the 'who is Sauron' being the main hook of the series, which was a terrible decision IMO. The mystery reveal won't hold up at all for repeat watches and it was already too obvious that they intended it to be Halbrand from the beginning. I didn't even want him to be Sauron but could totally see them going for that since Ep2.

I still think Arondir and the Watchtower Elves could have been cut completely from season 1 to get better pacing of the story focused on the Galadriel arc instead. The entire Southlands setting was built to resolve her story arc, Arondir became utterly pointless by the end, only having been in the story for the sake of some action scenes and exposition that ended up being completely irrelevant to the main plot. The anti-elf sentiments from the Southlanders ended up being completely pointless. If they plan on Arondir being a major character in S2 and beyond, they could have just introduced his character later on. His S1 appearance so far was completely unnecessary.

[Majestic12]

Im not sure the mithril plot is counter to your points…

1) the rings were designed to amplify mithrils restorative powers

Yeah but by the looks of it they don't need to be amplified - the Mithril can solo heal. It's the Light of the freakin' Silmarils.

2) when sauron made the one ring, he tied the elven rings to it aswell. When the one ring was destroyed, the elven rings lost their light aswell.

Aye in the original story, the power of the rings were tied to Sauron. But they're not anymore. The light in the Mithril is separate(as explained with the story when the elf fought the Balrog). So there's no in-lore reason for the Rings to "lose their light" or their power anymore.

3) greenwood fell to corruption because there was no elven ringbearer there, as you yourself indicate. This is not inconsistent.

It will be - if Mithril can keep the corruption at bay as a natural resource.

The power of the elven rings was always to “preserve”. I think they did something very creative tying it to mithril.

The Mithril backstory smacked of dualism (profoundly against Tolkien’s ethos) and writing shortcuts. This change has sent ripples throughout the whole lore - and frankly with the points above I am struggling to see how they can reasonably explain it.

[Myradin]

Honestly felt better/cared more for Adar than just about every "good" character, especially Galadriel.

Honestly both evil chars (Adar, Sauron) + The Dwarves are the only enjoyable characters in this show. Everyone else feels really contrived or artificial, or just needlessly antagonistic.

Adar wants to save his children, a cursed people.

Sauron's a bit more muddied but seems like he was running away from Dark Lording before Galadriel dragged him back.

The Dwarves are honestly just generic fantasy dwarves (to be fair, Tolkein kinda created this standard), but Dwarves are fun and they're well acted.


I feel like Arondir should have just been canned and had the Southlands story be about Bronwyn and her son to give us exposition on the region before Galadriel arrives. Giving this story a more human perspective rather than splitting it between human and elf. But I guess they didn't want to develop the region much anyway since it was meant to blow up all along. But making it a people we cared about before blowing it up would have been so much better. Instead the plot is all muddied with how the orcs captured the elves, ave a massive 'stealthy' trench, and a mcguffin plot about an invincible sword that was just a key to a dam.

[rhorle]

No, he wasn't. Stop lying. It was Miramax who tried to force him to water it down, and New Line gave him the funding to add the cut parts back.

They didn't try. He actually did. Hence why New Line had him restore his script as you even state. It is strange that you claim I'm lying while stating the same thing yourself. If parts were cut that means Jackson was going forward with those cuts in place if he could get funding.

- - - Updated - - -

We don't have that at all.

We do. He will be involved with the Pelargir storyline. They didn't give anyone clear motivations for the next season. Adar? He got what he want but what will be next. Galadriel? She got fooled by Sauron but what will she do next? Elrond, dwarves, Celebrimbor? No clue. The Queen? She returned but then what?

This is really just your grudge against Arondir showing. You claim that Arondir going to Pelargir isn't enough while also saying Nori going to Rhun with the Stranger is enough. Same principle. We only know where they are going but no other detail.

We practically get that with every other major POV character in the series, even Nori.

[Kumorii]

hmm... I'd like to believe that Saurons tip of diluting the Mithril and mixing it with other material is actually making them worse and also part of his "corruption".

Question is, will the show explain how the rings will be linked to the one ring? I'm not so sure.
Maybe they ignore Sauron having to do something with it to begin with since Mithril is supposed to be a mix of good and evil... so he might just take dominion over the evil part. Which would be kind of boring.

[Kathandira]

Honestly both evil chars (Adar, Sauron) + The Dwarves are the only enjoyable characters in this show. Everyone else feels really contrived or artificial, or just needlessly antagonistic.

Adar wants to save his children, a cursed people.

Sauron's a bit more muddied but seems like he was running away from Dark Lording before Galadriel dragged him back.

The Dwarves are honestly just generic fantasy dwarves (to be fair, Tolkein kinda created this standard), but Dwarves are fun and they're well acted.


I feel like Arondir should have just been canned and had the Southlands story be about Bronwyn and her son to give us exposition on the region before Galadriel arrives. Giving this story a more human perspective rather than splitting it between human and elf. But I guess they didn't want to develop the region much anyway since it was meant to blow up all along. But making it a people we cared about before blowing it up would have been so much better. Instead the plot is all muddied with how the orcs captured the elves, ave a massive 'stealthy' trench, and a mcguffin plot about an invincible sword that was just a key to a dam.

Like some other Grand Story shows, constantly going back and forth between connecting stories tends to brush past a lot of potential for world/character building.

I think a show like this could have been done over several seasons where each season focuses one the different races and what they are dealing with.

Start with the Elves, then the Southlands, then the Dwarves, then the Harfoots. And in each season, wrap it up with how it is connected to the BBEG.

[Skulltaker]

They didn't try. He actually did. Hence why New Line had him restore his script as you even state. It is strange that you claim I'm lying while stating the same thing yourself. If parts were cut that means Jackson was going forward with those cuts in place if he could get funding.

No, it doesn't. He refused to work with the cut version, which is why he went to another studio, and his unwillingness to accept a cut version is what got New Line in the room, to begin with. They didn't seek out Jackson, he went to them, presented his vision for the movie, and they accepted.

And you are lying. You're saying New Line urged Jackson - they didn't. You say they had him restore his script - they didn't. All they did was fund his vision. They even held back on a substential part of the required funds until a preview of the first movie got tremendous feedback at Cannes, they weren't willing to go the whole 9 yards befor they were sure they'd get an investment.

So you still want to spin this like it was New Line who were the mastermind behind it all?

[Kumorii]

Like some other Grand Story shows, constantly going back and forth between connecting stories tends to brush past a lot of potential for world/character building.

I think a show like this could have been done over several seasons where each season focuses one the different races and what they are dealing with.

Start with the Elves, then the Southlands, then the Dwarves, then the Harfoots. And in each season, wrap it up with how it is connected to the BBEG.

Been listening to Tolkien Untangled on youtube who goes over what and how he would tell this story. Really nice to listen to in the background when working and is doing something you prescribe. So might be worth a shot if you like listening to stuff like that.

[rhorle]

Question is, will the show explain how the rings will be linked to the one ring? I'm not so sure.

Does that really matter though? Didn't Tolkien essentially just say "magic" connected them all? And that essence of Sauron even had power over rings he didn't personally corrupt? As the 3 elven rings were not corrupted by Sauron and were created from his "teachings".

[Triceron]

They didn't try. He actually did. Hence why New Line had him restore his script as you even state. It is strange that you claim I'm lying while stating the same thing yourself. If parts were cut that means Jackson was going forward with those cuts in place if he could get funding.

To be fair, cuts to a script doesn't mean much considering a script goes through hundreds, if not thousands of iterations before we get the result we see on screen. And even after what we know of the New Line deal, he had enough film material to create 4 extra hours of material for the OG trilogy in the form of the Extended cuts. All we're looking at is a cut down version of the trilogy we already have for a potential Miramax version, and I would imagine it'd be cut down in a similar way to how the Theatrical cut is already a 'pared down' version of the extended. I'd imagine it'd just be a condensed version that didn't have as many scenes for character building as we ended up getting. Shorter Arwen scenes, less Hobbit travels on the road to Bree scenes, no Saruman/Gandalf battle at Orthanc, less Boromir talking about the Ring, etc.

We do. He will be involved with the Pelargir storyline. They didn't give anyone clear motivations for the next season. Adar? He got what he want but what will be next. Galadriel? She got fooled by Sauron but what will she do next? Elrond, dwarves, Celebrimbor? No clue. The Queen? She returned but then what?

Adar - Will continue to attempt to build a home for his Orcs now that Mordor has been created. As was his goal all along.
Galadriel - Will continue to hunt Sauron now that she knows who he is.
Elrond and the Dwarves - Will continue to search for a cure for his people, and likely urge the Dwarves to mine deeper and eventually reach the Balrog.
Queen - Will try to save Numenor from the Palantir visions, doing whatever she thinks is right that will save her kingdom.
Halbrand - returned deeper into Mordor, expected to try and build up his own army, and eventually forge the other rings
Nori and the Stranger - Will be travelling to Rhun to unlock more of his powers, find the constellation, find his purpose.


What do we know of Arondir's story moving forward? Is he going to hunt the evil Southlanders, as he was originally tasked to do? Is he going to try and integrate himself into Southland society alongside the Humans? Is he going to return to the Silvan realm? We don't know anything about his goals or purpose moving into S2. Going to Pelargir is part of the Numenorean storyline, so it doesn't really explain what his motivations or purpose would be in the grand scheme of things. He didn't really get a conclusion at all, I don't think he was in Ep 8 at all and the last we see of him was in the camp with the Southlanders, taking a slight bow to Galadriel. That's it.

And what's even more odd is Arondir's story actually ends with the Southlanders proclaiming 'Strength to the King' while the latest episode reveals that Halbrand isn't a King at all. So that bit is left completely open ended, and Arondir's story is caught completely open with it. The entire Southlander plot line is actually left open with no conclusion at all with Halbrand's reveal, since it was implied that Halbrand would be the one leading the people. That isn't what will continue to be implied by the end of the last episode, he's shown on his own and heading deeper back into Mordor alone.

[rhorle]

No, it doesn't. He refused to work with the cut version

No. Miramax wasn't funding the movie and he was authorized to shop it around under the condition Mirmax gets reimbursed. It was that cut version he was trying to get another studio to pick up. New Line after hearing his pitch asked him to restore his script and even make it grander. That isn't a lie as my earlier article indicated. The amusing part is you are the one trying to spin things in favor of Mr. Jackson by ignoring how he was going to make a two movie film for $75 million dollars and a watered down script until Miramax got cold feet.

[Myradin]

Like some other Grand Story shows, constantly going back and forth between connecting stories tends to brush past a lot of potential for world/character building.

I think a show like this could have been done over several seasons where each season focuses one the different races and what they are dealing with.

Start with the Elves, then the Southlands, then the Dwarves, then the Harfoots. And in each season, wrap it up with how it is connected to the BBEG.

Perhaps, I'm not entirely sure making LoTR Elves the main focus was a good idea in general. They're immortal and far removed from humans, also a lot of their life is covered in stuff amazon doesn't have the rights too.

I definitely think moving the Harfoots to a later season would be a good idea. Other than the Stranger maybe being Sauron their story had literally 0 impact on anything else. Who even are the wraith ladies?

[Triceron]

I definitely think moving the Harfoots to a later season would be a good idea. Other than the Stranger maybe being Sauron their story had literally 0 impact on anything else. Who even are the wraith ladies?

I'd somewhat agree here too. Aside from introducing the Harfoots for the sake of it, they don't seem to be an important part of the narrative moving forward outside of Nori with the Traveller. Aside from the meteor falling and the intentional red herring of Stranger being Sauron, the arc didn't really have much of a place in S1 at all, considering they still haven't given a definitive identity to the character, and his story arc never intertwines with the main plot, and didn't really have enough to conclude itself in a satisfying way either. It felt drawn out and rushed at the same time, and out-of-place overall.