Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Myradin]

He is the only one that requires an in-depth resolution.

Maybe because everyone else got an indepth resolution, and Arondir gets some off-hand comment said by other characters?

The dwarves might not appear in the final episode, but its pretty clear where they're going.

[rhorle]

Maybe because everyone else got an indepth resolution, and Arondir gets some off-hand comment said by other characters?

They didn't though. We also know clearly where Arondir is going. To Pelargir to be a family. A place that is an old Numenorian town with a people whose king was revealed to be Sauron. That is the same as the Stranger and Nori who are walking to Rhun to find some stars. No one got an in-depth resolution only general directions for what they will do in Season 2.

[Adamas102]

Eh, the show's canon clearly doesn't work with LOTR and effectively retcons it with plot twist shenanigans. If LOTR followed RoP's plot, a lot of things wouldn't make sense any more, this merely being one case. As someone said earlier, if Mithril were merely the macguffin that allows Elves to stay in Middle Earth, they would have no real reason to leave by the end of the events of LOTR.

OR mithril's restorative powers in this respect are only a band-aid (Sauron's influence and corruption will continue to grow as this story progresses). Arondir's story isn't finished. Celeborn is alive. Gandalf will leave Middle-earth at some point in order to be sent back on his mission in the 3rd Age. The show has several more seasons to have these things catch up to the LotR continuity. Complaining that an unfinished story hasn't answered all your questions immediately seems a bit silly.

[Triceron]

OR mithril's restorative powers in this respect are only a band-aid (Sauron's influence and corruption will continue to grow as this story progresses). Arondir's story isn't finished. Celeborn is alive. Gandalf will leave Middle-earth at some point in order to be sent back on his mission in the 3rd Age. The show has several more seasons to have these things catch up to the LotR continuity. Complaining that an unfinished story hasn't answered all your questions immediately seems a bit silly.

To be honest, you don't actually know any of these conclusions since the show doesn't actually follow the book canon, so answering these questions immediately when the rest of the show isn't completely out yet is also a bit silly.

Can you say for sure that any of what you've said is confirmed? No? Then you're just disagreeing for the sake of your personal opinion and complaining about opinions that do not draw the same conclusions that you have.

The difference between your argument and mine is that I have not put forth any of my own opinions or explanations to cover for the show's lack of explanation. I'm literally talking about the show, while you're talking about alternative assumptions and headcanon explanations that are otherwise not actually indicated by the show itself.

[Adamas102]

To be honest, you don't actually know any of these conclusions since the show doesn't actually follow the book canon, so answering these questions immediately when the rest of the show isn't completely out yet is also a bit silly.

Can you say for sure that any of what you've said is confirmed? No? Then you're just disagreeing for the sake of your personal opinion and complaining about opinions that do not draw the same conclusions that you have.

This isn't a matter of my personal opinion or saying that these things WILL happen. I'm simply countering your assumed continuity errors with possibilities that it seems you've already dismissed. I'll wait to see how these things pan out before passing judgement.

No, I don't know for sure that the show will 100% connect to the later continuity, but they certainly have the time to do so. Despite changes, the show is very clearly drawing a lot from the book canon and also has made a point of connecting itself to the movie aesthetics, so it seems very likely that they will end with the expected conclusions to most, if not all, of these plot/character threads.

[Triceron]

This isn't a matter of my personal opinion or saying that these things WILL happen. I'm simply countering your assumed continuity errors with possibilities that it seems you've already dismissed. I'll wait to see how these things pan out before passing judgement.

No, I don't know for sure that the show will 100% connect to the later continuity, but they certainly have the time to do so. Despite changes, the show is very clearly drawing a lot from the book canon and also has made a point of connecting itself to the movie aesthetics, so it seems very likely that they will end with the expected conclusions to most, if not all, of these plot/character threads.

Then that doesn't actually address anything I've actually said, since you lumped in a bunch of random responses that don't touch on my argument about Arondir.

Mithril could be a band-aid - so what? I never said it was a surefire solution
Gandalf could return later in 3rd age. So what? I didn't say anything about Gandalf.
Celeborn is alive. So what? I didn't say he was dead.

You're just lumping all these explanations which have nothing to do with what I said, so not sure why you really bothered replying just to say these things that don't address anything I actually said. You're not countering anything since I never made any statements about these things you addressed. I didn't even say Arondir's story is finished.

[Myradin]

I still find it weird the Celeborn thing wasn't mentioned till episode 7. The show goes on about her trying to avenge her brother, but not her lover? Yes he is (extremely likely) just to be lost or captured somewhere, but you'd think the show would focus on this more since it would presumably have payoff eventually.

I'm curious if reshoots happened. Just like how Galadriel and Theo somehow get split up from the group when the town only has 5 buildings. Or the giant awesome super forge is built in a flash in one awkward scene with pointless dialogue from Calibrimbor, meanwhile the Dwarf king is still doubting if he can trust the elves later in the episode. Or episode 7 feeling like a perfectly fine season finale, followed by 8 rushing to get some rings made.

[Veggie50]

Sigh…

Bees do not waste their time convincing flies that honey is sweeter than shit…

Im out ^^

[Adamas102]

Then that doesn't actually address anything I've actually said, since you lumped in a bunch of random responses that don't touch on my argument about Arondir.

Mithril could be a band-aid - so what? I never said it was a surefire solution
Gandalf could return later in 3rd age. So what? I didn't say anything about Gandalf.
Celeborn is alive. So what? I didn't say he was dead.

You're just lumping all these explanations which have nothing to do with what I said, so not sure why you really bothered replying just to say these things that don't address anything I actually said. You're not countering anything since I never made any statements about these things you addressed. I didn't even say Arondir's story is finished.

You very clearly made a point of saying that the show's canon retcons LotR ("the show's canon clearly doesn't work with LOTR and effectively retcons it"), and that if LotR followed RoP's plot that a lot of things wouldn't make sense (specifically citing mithril and the elves leaving Middle Earth at the end of the 3rd Age). You're making an assumption that at least this one thing which is presented in the first season of the show is now set in stone and cannot evolve to line up with the later canon.

I brought up Arondir based on your other posts concerning his apparent pointlessness and/or lack of conclusion, again despite not knowing how the character will be handled in future seasons. The other two points were also ones that appear as contradictions to the later lore (even if you yourself didn't bring them up) yet still can be brought in line with later canon, which I mentioned to further highlight the point of how silly it is to draw conclusions at this time.

[Triceron]

You very clearly made a point of saying that the show's canon retcons LotR

No I didn't. I didn't say anything of the sort.

You have no reason to reply to me about something you're projecting here, because I did not make any point that the show's canon retcons anything. I have always treated the show as a separate thing from the books, so I don't know why you're coming at me with these bogus explanations for things that have nothing to do with what I've actually said.

I don't think you can apply LOTR's canon, whether from the PJ movies or books or any such, to Rings of Power, because Rings of Power is so far its own adaptation. It doesn't exist in any existing LOTR adaption or book universe. It may pay homage to things said in LOTR, whether from the movies or the books, but it doesn't actually connect to any other adaptation. Rings of Power is its own universe, and anything that leads from RoP straight to LOTR would merely be assumptions.

I brought up Arondir based on your other posts concerning his apparent pointlessness and/or lack of conclusion

And that would be specific to Season 1, so I'm not sure why you think it's necessary to address this by saying Arondir's story isn't finished. My whole point is if he's even crucial to later seasons, they may as well introduce him directly in later seasons. His entire role in this first season was unnecessary to the overall plot. And as a PoV character, his actual story isn't even properly addressed in how he would fit in a Season 2. My criticism is specifically of Season 1 and the treatment of this character and how he fits into the overall plot.

Just saying his story isn't done doesn't settle anything I've talked about, since my whole point is that he could literally be a character that is introduced in later seasons. I am making a point that his lack of conclusion outside of 'starting fresh' doesn't really tie much in to S2. It's hard to say if he will even be back, it's left open like the Harfoots sans Nori.

If I merely wanted to headcanon the fuck out of this show to make sense out of it, I absolutely could, but that isn't the point of any of my criticisms. My point is that the character of Arondir seemed pointless as a POV character, considering I personally think his purpose in the overall arc was contrived, while all the plot elements that connect his purpose in the story as a POV character ended up being given to Galadriel, while his own conclusion is left completely open.

If that is the case, he may as well have been introduced in the later seasons as a character who happened to have history in the Southlands when shit went down, rather than following his journey and splitting up to 5+ PoV arcs in a series that already had very obvious pacing and plot development issues.

Just saying that this character's story is unfinished doesn't address the fact he barely had a story in Season 1 to begin with, and was shoehorned into an already cramped series with too many POV arcs to begin with.

[rhorle]

I still find it weird the Celeborn thing wasn't mentioned till episode 7. The show goes on about her trying to avenge her brother, but not her lover? Yes he is (extremely likely) just to be lost or captured somewhere, but you'd think the show would focus on this more since it would presumably have payoff eventually.

She could have searched high and low for her husband as well and by the time we see her on the show she focused once again on her quest to hunt every last hint of darkness. The dagger could be more important as well. Her brother had it when he got marked by Sauron. What if it was "modified" somehow? Sauron could be using it to influence her during the events of the show.

It still could have been addressed earlier or better though.

[Orby]

for all the shows faults at least we got a pretty good soundtrack

[Syegfryed]

Between this and the lack of evidence to the contrary it seems pretty clear that the show was maintaining with the lore that Celebrimbor's works were primarily in jewelcraft.

Pretty weird to say the show maintain lore in some way, (and the lack of evidence is not evidence by itself) but like i said i stand corrected on that part

As for "bad guy want to make two? lets make three!!" is only an issue if you already know about the One Ring (which of course the characters don't know about yet). Based on what Galadriel knows at this time, Sauron was looking to make the two rings to empower himself and Galadriel if she came to his side. With his plans revealed and his offer refused, it makes sense for for the rings to be made to use AGAINST Sauron and Galadriel explains why three is better than two for keeping a balance of power between the ring bearers.

And the reason of why there is 3 make no sense, it came out of nowhere to give her the spotlight as the reason of why there is 3 rings, its the problem of the rings of the elves coming first, when they are supposed to be done in secret later, it was forced and didn't had any build up of why they should make 3 and not just stop doing it at all.

The whole deal about her being suspicious is also forced to happen, with Celebrimbor repeating words Adar said, but she immediately think on Hallbland, and finding Halbland information with a vulcan elf that there wasn't a king in the southlands in 200 years, but the people there and in numenor didn't had that bit of info.

It was not good to find that bit of info before, but now it is. And you still say there is no problem in the writing and its just nitpicking from us, despite they taking even more time to doa second season because of how massive the clusterfuck was.

[Raisei]

hmm... I'd like to believe that Saurons tip of diluting the Mithril and mixing it with other material is actually making them worse and also part of his "corruption".

Question is, will the show explain how the rings will be linked to the one ring? I'm not so sure.
Maybe they ignore Sauron having to do something with it to begin with since Mithril is supposed to be a mix of good and evil... so he might just take dominion over the evil part. Which would be kind of boring.

Well, he did catch the dagger with his hand, when Galadriel tried to stab the Dark friggin Lord. That same dagger was molten for the rings. If they are smart they will pick this moment as the moment where he established the corruption on them to link them to the One later.
If he has forseen that this pure gold and silver is needed to craft the rings and that the only amount of it in Eregion is that dagger, he could have planned this. But I am not sure they can draw such connections.

[Triceron]

Well, he did catch the dagger with his hand, when Galadriel tried to stab the Dark friggin Lord. That same dagger was molten for the rings. If they are smart they will pick this moment as the moment where he established the corruption on them to link them to the One later.
If he has forseen that this pure gold and silver is needed to craft the rings and that the only amount of it in Eregion is that dagger, he could have planned this. But I am not sure they can draw such connections.

It's contrived to think that Galadriel's dagger is the only source of Valinor Gold and Silver that they had available. That it is even a plot point they used is quite dumbfounding, considering they're literally in an Elf city, that just built a giant tower for smithing, that houses one of the most reknowned Elven smiths. It doesn't make a lot of sense why they needed Galadriel's dagger at all, it just happened to be and everyone agreed it needed to be this specifically.

[Adamas102]

No I didn't. I didn't say anything of the sort.

Oh, fuck off. This has to be the most blatant attempt at gaslighting I've seen on this forum given that your own words are easily seen just a few posts up (or maybe a dissociative personality disorder where you completely forget what you posted earlier). Here, I'll remind you.

You have no reason to reply to me about something you're projecting here, because I did not make any point that the show's canon retcons anything.

After saying:

Eh, the show's canon clearly doesn't work with LOTR and effectively retcons it

-------------------------

I don't think you can apply LOTR's canon, whether from the PJ movies or books or any such, to Rings of Power, because Rings of Power is so far its own adaptation. It doesn't exist in any existing LOTR adaption or book universe. It may pay homage to things said in LOTR, whether from the movies or the books, but it doesn't actually connect to any other adaptation. Rings of Power is its own universe, and anything that leads from RoP straight to LOTR would merely be assumptions.

This is also a bullshit excuse because the show is very much an adaptation of the 2nd Age material. It doesn't simply pay homage, it isn't unconnected from the books or the movies, and it most certainly isn't its own universe. It is very much connected to both in plot and visual style, and firmly anchored by the characters and events outlined in the appendices.

You don't think it's a good adaptation? Fine. There are plenty of adaptations that I don't like either because of divergences from the source material, yet they still exist as adaptations. Sticking your head in the sand about it doesn't change what it is. It just makes you look foolish.

[Triceron]

This is also a bullshit excuse because the show is very much an adaptation of the 2nd Age material. It doesn't simply pay homage, it isn't unconnected from the books or the movies, and it most certainly isn't its own universe. It is very much connected to both in plot and visual style, and firmly anchored by the characters and events outlined in the appendices.

It IS in its own universe, because it's not un a universe that is connected to any book or existing material where characters such as 'Halbrand' would have ever existed.

I'll rephrase then, as I intended to mean that Rings of Power is its own continuity, effectively its own universe, with a completely separate 'LOTR' continuity. It is like considering it a multiverse, where the events that we know of LOTR from the books are going to be changed in order to fit a story that is crafted around the compressed Rings of Power timeline. This includes being a universe that has Sauron taking the form of Halbrand, and all things that were not known of in any other version of LOTR. That's what I meant.

I certainly don't imply that Rings of Power is applicable to any existing Lord of the Rings canon or adaptation. Amazon would literally have to define its own LOTR to make sense of all the current changes it is implementing, because this doesn't fit into any existing adaptation whatsoever.

You don't think it's a good adaptation? Fine. There are plenty of adaptations that I don't like either because of divergences from the source material, yet they still exist as adaptations. Sticking your head in the sand about it doesn't change what it is. It just makes you look foolish.

I've always said this was an adaptation and regarded it as such. I said you can't connect RoP back to any other existing non-Amazon material as a matter of discussion, because they aren't meant to be interchangeable whatsoever. Rings of Power is its own body of work, and the LOTR it refers to is ultimately a separate adaptation that has not yet been adapted by Amazon themselves. It wouldn't be bound to any of the rules set forth by the original book canon or the Peter Jackson movies, because they have already set out to create a new story that has effectively changed the paradigm of the stories already for the 2nd Age in ways that do not work with any current understanding of Lord of the Rings.

That it adapts 2nd Age material also means it will be adapting LOTR in its own way. Therefore we can't really discuss anything that really exists currently in LOTR as a means to retroactively explain what is happening in Rings of Power, because we're working in a completely new continuity that assumes a compressed timeline is in effect. I'll say here and now that my original use of retcon may be a poor choice of words when I intended to mean a new continuity completely.

What I will say is that the show creators may intend on this series to be a direct prequel to the Jackson film trilogy, it is not and can not actually be a prequel because of messy rights issues, and the show itself has diverged in a way where the story has become its own thing with only the loosest connection to the film trilogy by means of character names and sharing source material and film movie designs (which I figure were a part of the liscencing deal).

[Xath]

Oh, fuck off. This has to be the most blatant attempt at gaslighting I've seen on this forum given that your own words are easily seen just a few posts up (or maybe a dissociative personality disorder where you completely forget what you posted earlier). Here, I'll remind you.



After saying:



-------------------------



This is also a bullshit excuse because the show is very much an adaptation of the 2nd Age material. It doesn't simply pay homage, it isn't unconnected from the books or the movies, and it most certainly isn't its own universe. It is very much connected to both in plot and visual style, and firmly anchored by the characters and events outlined in the appendices.

You don't think it's a good adaptation? Fine. There are plenty of adaptations that I don't like either because of divergences from the source material, yet they still exist as adaptations. Sticking your head in the sand about it doesn't change what it is. It just makes you look foolish.

It literally retcons significant chunks such as making Galadriel's husband be dead/missing so they can jam in Sauron ship because of course they do. It's loosely inspired by fanfiction it is most certainly not an adaptation.

[Adamas102]

And the reason of why there is 3 make no sense, it came out of nowhere to give her the spotlight as the reason of why there is 3 rings, its the problem of the rings of the elves coming first, when they are supposed to be done in secret later, it was forced and didn't had any build up of why they should make 3 and not just stop doing it at all.

The Three ARE a secret. You're assuming that Sauron knows they a. followed through and b. made three instead of two. The buildup for making three was there in the show as well. It was Galadriel's answer to Sauron's plan for the rings to create a tyrannical couplet of power. Her reasoning is no worse than Celebrimbor just randomly making 3 by himself. It's never explained in the lore why he only made 3. Did he run out of materials? Run out of time? Decide that 3 was a good number? Did he have the wielders in mind already?

As for the Three being made after the others, the rest of the rings were still handed out to the dwarves and men by Sauron himself after collecting them from Eregion. Maybe they keep it that way in the show (having Celebrimbor make more rings now that they know Sauron is back, because remember they don't know about the One Ring plan) or maybe they cut out the middle part and just have Sauron make and distribute the rings himself. The outcome is still the same. The lore also never explains why Celebrimbor gave a ring he knew Sauron had a hand in making to Durin, so maybe that part will be fleshed out as well.

[Syegfryed]

Also something that is in the appendices that the show retcon:

He(Ar-Pharazô) resolved to challenge Sauron the Great for the supremacy in, Middle-earth, and at length he himself set sail with a great navy, and he landed
at Umbar. So great was the might and splendour of the Númenoreans that Sauron's own servants deserted him; and Sauron humbled himself, doing homage, and craving
pardon. Then Ar-Pharazôn in the folly of his pride carried him back as a prisoner to Númenor. It was not long before he had bewitched the King and was master of his counsel; and soon he had tamed the hearts of all the Númenoreans, except the remnant of the Faithful, back towards the darkness.