Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Xath]

Oh, fuck off. This has to be the most blatant attempt at gaslighting I've seen on this forum given that your own words are easily seen just a few posts up (or maybe a dissociative personality disorder where you completely forget what you posted earlier). Here, I'll remind you.



After saying:



-------------------------



This is also a bullshit excuse because the show is very much an adaptation of the 2nd Age material. It doesn't simply pay homage, it isn't unconnected from the books or the movies, and it most certainly isn't its own universe. It is very much connected to both in plot and visual style, and firmly anchored by the characters and events outlined in the appendices.

You don't think it's a good adaptation? Fine. There are plenty of adaptations that I don't like either because of divergences from the source material, yet they still exist as adaptations. Sticking your head in the sand about it doesn't change what it is. It just makes you look foolish.

It literally retcons significant chunks such as making Galadriel's husband be dead/missing so they can jam in Sauron ship because of course they do. It's loosely inspired by fanfiction it is most certainly not an adaptation.

[Adamas102]

And the reason of why there is 3 make no sense, it came out of nowhere to give her the spotlight as the reason of why there is 3 rings, its the problem of the rings of the elves coming first, when they are supposed to be done in secret later, it was forced and didn't had any build up of why they should make 3 and not just stop doing it at all.

The Three ARE a secret. You're assuming that Sauron knows they a. followed through and b. made three instead of two. The buildup for making three was there in the show as well. It was Galadriel's answer to Sauron's plan for the rings to create a tyrannical couplet of power. Her reasoning is no worse than Celebrimbor just randomly making 3 by himself. It's never explained in the lore why he only made 3. Did he run out of materials? Run out of time? Decide that 3 was a good number? Did he have the wielders in mind already?

As for the Three being made after the others, the rest of the rings were still handed out to the dwarves and men by Sauron himself after collecting them from Eregion. Maybe they keep it that way in the show (having Celebrimbor make more rings now that they know Sauron is back, because remember they don't know about the One Ring plan) or maybe they cut out the middle part and just have Sauron make and distribute the rings himself. The outcome is still the same. The lore also never explains why Celebrimbor gave a ring he knew Sauron had a hand in making to Durin, so maybe that part will be fleshed out as well.

[Syegfryed]

Also something that is in the appendices that the show retcon:

He(Ar-Pharazô) resolved to challenge Sauron the Great for the supremacy in, Middle-earth, and at length he himself set sail with a great navy, and he landed
at Umbar. So great was the might and splendour of the Númenoreans that Sauron's own servants deserted him; and Sauron humbled himself, doing homage, and craving
pardon. Then Ar-Pharazôn in the folly of his pride carried him back as a prisoner to Númenor. It was not long before he had bewitched the King and was master of his counsel; and soon he had tamed the hearts of all the Númenoreans, except the remnant of the Faithful, back towards the darkness.

[rhorle]

Also something that is in the appendices that the show retcon:

It is a little early to be complaining about something being a retcon when the show hasn't even covered those events. Why not pick one of the many things the show has shown to be changed? Ar-Pharazon can still become King and can still capture Sauron.

[Syegfryed]

The Three ARE a secret. You're assuming that Sauron knows they a. followed through and b. made three instead of two. The buildup for making three was there in the show as well. It was Galadriel's answer to Sauron's plan for the rings to create a tyrannical couplet of power. Her reasoning is no worse than Celebrimbor just randomly making 3 by himself. It's never explained in the lore why he only made 3. Did he run out of materials? Run out of time? Decide that 3 was a good number? Did he have the wielders in mind already?

But whats the difference if it was 2 or 3 in this context? the whole point of the elven rings being done in secret was that they escaped Sauron influence it is not? then how making one more would make any difference when he took part of doing the base for the two? his influence would already be mixed in the materials they used (which btw i don't know how one of then was randomly silver when they melt the dagger entirely and put everything in the same forge).

Making just 3 because they lack materials at least would make sense in what they established in the narrative since the dwarves didn't gave then enough mithrill and they only had Galadriel dagger.

As for the Three being made after the others, the rest of the rings were still handed out to the dwarves and men by Sauron himself after collecting them from Eregion. Maybe they keep it that way in the show (having Celebrimbor make more rings now that they know Sauron is back, because remember they don't know about the One Ring plan) or maybe they cut out the middle part and just have Sauron make and distribute the rings himself. The outcome is still the same. The lore also never explains why Celebrimbor gave a ring he knew Sauron had a hand in making to Durin, so maybe that part will be fleshed out as well.

A plot problem raised from then changing stuff now they have to fix someway that does not feel like its forced or nonsense to justify the plot.

If Celebrimbor does the rings and handle to the other, why those will be corrupted and not the elven rings? why he would make 7 for dwarves and 9 for men when they established that 3 is the perfect number for ~~reasons? Galadriel didn't even said halbland was sauron and this was his plan too, because the characters would likely stop doing it.

If its not him, its sauron who is going to do the rings in mount doom? with what mithril? and just free handle to everyone? but if the elves know about Sauron wanting to make rings they would not find weird that men and dwarves are getting rings of power in middle earth? they will not warn then?

They will make Sauron sweet talk the dwarves into giving then mithril? He is going to put Balrong to sleep so the dwarves can mine or Kazhadun will fall and he will take control of the mines?

everywhere you look the story seems to be convoluted and forced so the events would play out, when the event would likely play out normally if they had followed the original plot.

[Hitei]

It's contrived to think that Galadriel's dagger is the only source of Valinor Gold and Silver that they had available. That it is even a plot point they used is quite dumbfounding, considering they're literally in an Elf city, that just built a giant tower for smithing, that houses one of the most reknowned Elven smiths. It doesn't make a lot of sense why they needed Galadriel's dagger at all, it just happened to be and everyone agreed it needed to be this specifically.

It's been a very long time since they left and when they left it was to go to war. Large amounts of gold and silver sourced from Valinor would be relatively rare, just ornamental things brought with them (like the dagger). It's not like they're sending entire navies back across the sea to ship thousands of hulls of gold to middle earth to build towers, they've built their cities and most current generations of armor and weapons out of local materials.

It's also about the emotional attachment. Creation in the IP involves a mental/spiritual capacity, some small bits of gold and silver Celebrimbor had brought with him from Valinor and had squirreled away are significantly less potent than the gold and silver in a dead loved one's dagger that's been carried for centuries as a both a treasured symbol of love and loss and an inherited vow to endlessly hunt and vanquish evil.

[Syegfryed]

It is a little early to be complaining about something being a retcon when the show hasn't even covered those events. Why not pick one of the many things the show has shown to be changed? Ar-Pharazon can still become King and can still capture Sauron.

Sauron already went there became prisioner and already left, seems likely tis going to be a bit weird to revisit the same plot, and its more likely Karl-Pharazon will do things alone.

Maybe he was already conveniently corrupted by sauron, who knows

[Adamas102]

It IS in its own universe, because it's not un a universe that is connected to any book or existing material where characters such as 'Halbrand' would have ever existed.

I'll rephrase then, as I intended to mean that Rings of Power is its own continuity, effectively its own universe, with a completely separate 'LOTR' continuity. It is like considering it a multiverse, where the events that we know of LOTR from the books are going to be changed in order to fit a story that is crafted around the compressed Rings of Power timeline. This includes being a universe that has Sauron taking the form of Halbrand, and all things that were not known of in any other version of LOTR. That's what I meant.

How does Halbrand's existence contradict the movies? The details that the show is giving weren't mentioned in the movies. You can say that the movies are meant to follow the lore to the letter, but the fact that they don't stray far from the narrative of the LotR itself leaves things open and it seems highly unlikely that Peter Jackson outright say "this isn't how MY version of the 2nd Age would go".

This is indeed similar to the Star Wars in that the sequel trilogy is indeed still the same setting and continuity of the original trilogy even if the original creators weren't involved. That's just how it works when rights are sold and you're the first one to get there.

That it adapts 2nd Age material also means it will be adapting LOTR in its own way. Therefore we can't really discuss anything that really exists currently in LOTR as a means to retroactively explain what is happening in Rings of Power, because we're working in a completely new continuity that assumes a compressed timeline is in effect. I'll say here and now that my original use of retcon may be a poor choice of words when I intended to mean a new continuity completely.

What I will say is that the show creators may intend on this series to be a direct prequel to the Jackson film trilogy, it is not and can not actually be a prequel because of messy rights issues, and the show itself has diverged in a way where the story has become its own thing with only the loosest connection to the film trilogy by means of character names and sharing source material and film movie designs (which I figure were a part of the liscencing deal).

Once Amazon announces a plan to remake LotR themselves into a show, I'll agree. For now though, the visuals make for a connection that cannot be ignored. You say you figure it was part of the licensing deal, but is there proof that Amazon fought against having their show in any way tied to the Peter Jackson movies? They certainly would have been the ones who made the decision to bring on people like John Howe.

When it comes to the divergences, we come back to my giving them the opportunity to make things line up IN THE END. I understand that you're saying we shouldn't assume that the show will conclude in such a way that seamlessly ties to the movies, but at the same time we can't yet say that will not happen. My HOPE is that they will aim for a connected story, and evidence so far doesn't sway from that. But I guess we'll see over the next several years.

[rhorle]

If Celebrimbor does the rings and handle to the other, why those will be corrupted and not the elven rings?

Same reason why Tolkien had it? Magic? Plot device? Remember Sauron never corrupted the 3 elven rings yet still was able to control them with the One ring.

[Adamas102]

It literally retcons significant chunks such as making Galadriel's husband be dead/missing.

That doesn't retcon the movie continuity unless it's revealed that he is indeed dead.

[Shadowferal]

Now it’s over, let’s come out and say it: The Rings of Power was a stinker

The world’s most expensive show – which looked like an episode of Hollyoaks, only with woeful acting – was so inept that every episode left you sniggering

According to Nielsen, it was a conclusive victory for Tolkien, with The Rings of Power viewers watching the first two episodes for 1.25bn minutes, compared with House of the Dragon’s 741m.

But over the weeks, something strange has happened. House of the Dragon has sucked up the spotlight. It has attracted tweets, theories, memes, discussions, all on a rolling boil since the first episode. Meanwhile, if The Rings of Power has been seen anywhere, it was only in places paid for by Amazon. There are billboards and adverts and special Amazon packing tape adorned with the show’s logo. But, in terms of spontaneous, organic excitement, it has been a wilderness.

Why? Well, now that the first season is finally over, there is one clear answer. The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power isn’t very good. It quite often isn’t anywhere near good. There are moments in almost every episode where I have found myself sniggering into my sleeve at how inept it is. And all these misgivings were massively underlined by the finale.

The biggest issue, the one that caused the bulk of the sniggering, was the acting. This is a show with a sprawling cast blasted across a number of locations. And there is no consistency whatsoever. People don’t seem to have been told what sort of show they are acting in. It’s bizarre.

At its best – largely thanks to the thrilling, urgent Morfydd Clark, who clearly felt the sting of every word she spoke – The Rings of Power came off as a pretty good prestige drama. But at its worst, hoo boy. There was some Toast of London-level acting on display, some sherry-breath regional theatre matinee performances stinking up the place. I don’t want to single out any individual actors – partly because it would be cruel, but mainly because I suspect it’s the fault of the directors rather than the actors. Even in Friday’s episode, some of the smaller parts appeared to have beamed in directly from an unaired 1983 episode of Doctor Who. A good director with an overview of the entire series would have steered moments like this into safer territory.

It didn’t end there. Bear McCreary’s ever-present score was syrupy and phoned in, as if he fell asleep on the “Fantasy” preset on his keyboard. The whole thing was lit as if it was an episode of Hollyoaks. Given the sheer amount of money thrown at the show, some of the visual effects were incredibly inept. Tonally, too, the drama didn’t know if it was meant to be for beginner-, intermediate- or expert-level Tolkien fans. As such, it felt like it was made for nobody.

A while ago, someone on the financial side of the television industry reminded me that Amazon isn’t a television company. It’s a mail order business that dabbles in TV to boost its cred. The Rings of Power seems to be a perfect case in point, as if Amazon dumped a billion dollars into it for the headlines, then ignored a lot of the details. The frustrating thing is that there is clearly so much potential here. I just don’t know if I have it in me to watch any more to see if it is ever realised.

[Syegfryed]

Same reason why Tolkien had it? Magic? Plot device? Remember Sauron never corrupted the 3 elven rings yet still was able to control them with the One ring.

But as far i know he was just able to see their thoughts, not control the ones who used the three elven rings, exactly because they were created by Celebrimbor alone.

[rhorle]

Once Amazon announces a plan to remake LotR themselves into a show, I'll agree. For now though, the visuals make for a connection that cannot be ignored. You say you figure it was part of the licensing deal, but is there proof that Amazon fought against having their show in any way tied to the Peter Jackson movies?

They are not in the same continuity. Warner Brothers controls the Jackson films and has their own cinematic universe that they are still creating things for. The Video games and soon to be Anime are part of the WB "universe". Amazon has their own now and even has rights to create spinoffs from Rings of Power. Neither are required to honor each other. Obviously some things from Amazon will look similar because Tolkien being the source and using popular imagery the Jackson films had.

I doubt it is something the Tolkien estate would include since they didn't like how Netflix wanted to do a MCU. They pitched a Gandalf show, an Aragorn drama, and likely more.

[Jotaux]

I actually really like the show. My only complaint was the Hobbit stand ins. Like get rid of that story and I would enjoy it 10x more.

[Adamas102]

But whats the difference if it was 2 or 3 in this context? the whole point of the elven rings being done in secret was that they escaped Sauron influence it is not? then how making one more would make any difference when he took part of doing the base for the two? his influence would already be mixed in the materials they used (which btw i don't know how one of then was randomly silver when they melt the dagger entirely and put everything in the same forge).

Well, it's never really explained why Celebrimbor made 3 in secret. He did it before Annatar's identity was revealed. Maybe he was just so prideful that he thought he could make the best three himself, but he still used some of Annatar's teachings so there was still a connection between The Three and The One Ring.

Yeah, getting 2 different colors from one batch of smelted metal is weird but that's pretty unimportant in the overarching story. The scene is meant to be more symbolic of Galadriel moving past her old vendetta (which the show had very clearly tied to her brother's dagger). I don't know, maybe Celebrimbor being such an awesome jeweler has a device that somehow separates metals of different color. Or maybe despite their efforts the metal wasn't perfectly mixed and one came out with less gold content than the others. I don't care because the color of the rings is completely unimportant and taking the time to explain the colors is unnecessary to the overall plot.

A plot problem raised from then changing stuff now they have to fix someway that does not feel like its forced or nonsense to justify the plot.

If Celebrimbor does the rings and handle to the other, why those will be corrupted and not the elven rings? why he would make 7 for dwarves and 9 for men when they established that 3 is the perfect number for ~~reasons? Galadriel didn't even said halbland was sauron and this was his plan too, because the characters would likely stop doing it.

If its not him, its sauron who is going to do the rings in mount doom? with what mithril? and just free handle to everyone? but if the elves know about Sauron wanting to make rings they would not find weird that men and dwarves are getting rings of power in middle earth? they will not warn then?

They will make Sauron sweet talk the dwarves into giving then mithril? He is going to put Balrong to sleep so the dwarves can mine or Kazhadun will fall and he will take control of the mines?

everywhere you look the story seems to be convoluted and forced so the events would play out, when the event would likely play out normally if they had followed the original plot.

What you're describing is a problem with Tolkien's part. Per the lore, Sauron takes the rings (except the Three) and lays waste to Eregion, and THEN goes around handing the rings out to the dwarves and men who apparently take them gladly. It's never said whether they're tricked or whether they just want the power regardless of where it comes from. The composition of those 16 rings is also never mentioned so they don't need to be made of mithril, but maybe in the show they will be if Sauron attacks or corrupts the dwarves of Moria. Guess we'll just have to see how the show pulls together these events that Tolkien never really described in detail.

[Triceron]

How does Halbrand's existence contradict the movies? The details that the show is giving weren't mentioned in the movies. You can say that the movies are meant to follow the lore to the letter, but the fact that they don't stray far from the narrative of the LotR itself leaves things open and it seems highly unlikely that Peter Jackson outright say "this isn't how MY version of the 2nd Age would go".

This is indeed similar to the Star Wars in that the sequel trilogy is indeed still the same setting and continuity of the original trilogy even if the original creators weren't involved. That's just how it works when rights are sold and you're the first one to get there.

Nah dude. Argue as much as you may, the only thing we can factually agree on concerning these films is that they are all separate adaptations from any other film or book material. It is not like the Star Wars trilogy, because Star Wars is one single canon and not a multiverse situation where the rights are being shipped off to different companies. Marvel is a multiverse, and both in-universe because they literally designed a Multiverse, and outside of it in terms of multiple companies having different rights for different characters and properties. Star Wars is one single canon, with anything existing prior in the Extended Universe being considered non-canon branded as 'Legends'. And yes, it's a very sore point for OT fans that Greedo Shot First is the canon because George Lucas decided to retcon it, and it has not been officially reverted since then.

Rings of Power is making use of its own story through its own specific liscencing deal, and does not officially connect with any other existing property. PJ's LOTR is not canonical to the books or to Rings of Power either. Only PJ's Hobbit trilogy is canonical to his LOTR trilogy. And let's be clear that PJ's LOTR isn't the only adaptation that's made it to film; there did also exist the Rankin Bass Hobbit and the Ralph Bakshi LOTR films as well, which I will use as examples of other adaptations that aren't connected to anything else. All of these films are separate adaptations.

Once Amazon announces a plan to remake LotR themselves into a show, I'll agree. For now though, the visuals make for a connection that cannot be ignored. You say you figure it was part of the licensing deal, but is there proof that Amazon fought against having their show in any way tied to the Peter Jackson movies? They certainly would have been the ones who made the decision to bring on people like John Howe.

When it comes to the divergences, we come back to my giving them the opportunity to make things line up IN THE END. I understand that you're saying we shouldn't assume that the show will conclude in such a way that seamlessly ties to the movies, but at the same time we can't yet say that will not happen. My HOPE is that they will aim for a connected story, and evidence so far doesn't sway from that. But I guess we'll see over the next several years.

If the Amazon Rings of Power wants to write itself in a way that tries to work with the Peter Jackson films, then all power to it. But it's clear that they are not actually connected in any way other than grandfathering designs from the films, and sourcing the same book material to build its story around. It doesn't default in being connected to the PJ movies just because they share some design elements and some of the artists who created it, and brought back Howard Shore to do the music for the intro. That isn't what connects these properties together.

Amazon does not have Jackson's involvement directly, and Peter Jackson himself was part of the writing force behind the movies. Amazon is not molding their story to fit with the Peter Jackson trilogy either, as they have not outright stated any intent to even do so and the show so far hasn't done anything to bridge a connection outside of use of designs or literally picking out bits of dialog as a straight out callback to the movies. There isn't actually any plot that connects specifically to the movies.

Design connections don't make them connected. Liscencing deals can offer the shared use of existing designs without having all properties be canonical to each other.

One example is the Games Workshop Lord of the Rings Tabletop game, which made minis directly based on the PJ LOTR movies, but it also expanded itself to create figures and lore the PJ movies did not cover, like designs for new creatures or elaborating on the individual Nazgul, like a unique design for Khamul the Easterling who was never given any distinct form in the PJ movies



The Tabletop borrows heavily from the Peter Jackson films, but is not canonical to them. It also builds its own canon.

[Ihavewaffles]

I didn't write this, but...yeah, the writing makes no sense...


Sauron didn’t plan to get shipwrecked, trapped on a raft, and almost eaten by a sea worm twice.

He didn’t plan on meeting Galadriel, an elf who, astoundingly, had just jumped out of her ship to somehow swim the entire length of the Sundering Seas, in the middle of the ocean.

Sauron didn’t plan to be rescued by the Númenoreans.

He didn’t plan for Galadriel to refuse to believe that he’d stolen a symbol from a dead man as he told her, then insist that he was a king while he insisted he wasn’t.

He didn’t plan to be out in prison for theft and assault.

Sauron didn’t plan for Galadriel to somehow convince Númenor to send ships to Middle-earth.

He didn’t plan to be caught in a pyroclastic flow from the eruption of Mount Doom.

He didn’t plan to be stabbed by a lance. (offscreen?).

He didn’t plan to get an infected gut wound.

Sauron didn’t plan for Galadriel to force him to ride six days to Eregion, a stronghold of his millennia-old enemies, to be under care of elven healers (who don’t sense he’s Maiar?).

He didn’t plan for Celebrimbor to let him assist on a project he couldn’t have known existed.

Sauron didn’t plan on some grand scheme to seize power.

He didn’t even lie to Galadriel.

She orchestrated everything that happened to him, often in defiance of his explicit requests.

He was ignored because Galadriel always, always insists she’s right.

Sauron didn’t plan on corrupting the rings.

He didn’t plan to assassinate Elrond or Gil-galad.

He didn’t plan to sabotage Celebrimbor’s project, or steal the mithril, or do *anything* he could have easily done to ensure the elves would either die or leave Middle-earth.

Sauron didn’t murder Galadriel when she confronted him about his true identity.

Instead, he offered her to be the anchor for his redemption.

[Xath]

Also something that is in the appendices that the show retcon:

You mean the usurper who forces marriage upon a woman who never takes the throne checks who is the queen ... oh yeah that's definitely not a ret con

[Ihavewaffles]

I hafta wonder, why the show didn't use this for their story?



Press release

HarperCollins is proud to announce the publication in November 2022 of THE FALL OF NÚMENOR by J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by writer and Tolkien expert, Brian Sibley, and illustrated by acclaimed artist, Alan Lee. The book will be published globally by HarperCollinsPublishers and in other languages by numerous Tolkien publishers worldwide.

Presenting for the first time in one volume the events of the Second Age as written by J.R.R. Tolkien and originally and masterfully edited for publication by Christopher Tolkien, this new volume will include pencil drawings and colour paintings by Alan Lee, who also illustrated The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit and went on to win an Academy Award for his work on The Lord of the Rings film trilogy.

J.R.R. Tolkien famously described the Second Age of Middle-earth as a ‘dark age, and not very much of its history is (or need be) told’. And for many years readers would need to be content with the tantalizing glimpses of it found within the pages of The Lord of the Rings and its appendices.

It was not until Christopher Tolkien presented The Silmarillion for publication in 1977 that a fuller story could be told for, though much of its content concerned the First Age of Middle-earth, there were at its close two key works that revealed the tumultuous events concerning the rise and fall of the island-kingdom of Númenor, the Forging of the Rings of Power, the building of the Barad-dûr and the rise of Sauron, and the Last Alliance of Elves and Men.

Christopher Tolkien provided even greater insight into the Second Age in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth in 1980, and expanded upon this in his magisterial 12-volume History of Middle-earth, in which he presented and discussed a wealth of further tales written by his father, many in draft form.

Now, using ‘The Tale of Years’ in The Lord of the Rings as a starting point, Brian Sibley has assembled from the various published texts in a way that tells for the very first time in one volume the tale of the Second Age of Middle-earth, whose events would ultimately lead to the Third Age, and the War of the Ring, as told in The Lord of the Rings.

The Hobbit was first published in 1937 and The Lord of the Rings in 1954–5. Each has since gone on to become a beloved classic of literature and an international bestseller translated into more than 70 languages, collectively selling more than 150,000,000 copies worldwide. Published in 1977, The Silmarillion sold more than one million copies in its first year of publication and has gone on to be translated into almost 40 languages.

Brian Sibley says: ‘Since the first publication of The Silmarillion forty-five years ago, I have passionately followed Christopher Tolkien’s meticulous curation and scholarship in publishing a formidable history of his father’s writings on Middle-earth. I am honoured to be adding to that authoritative library with The Fall of Númenor. I hope that, in drawing together many of the threads from the tales of the Second Age into a single work, readers will discover – or rediscover – the rich tapestry of characters and events that are a prelude to the drama of the War of the Ring as is told in The Lord of the Rings.

Alan Lee says: ‘It is a pleasure to be able to explore the Second Age in more detail, and learn more about those shadowy and ancient events, alliances and disasters that eventually led to the Third Age stories we are more familiar with. Wherever I had the opportunity when working on The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, I tried to imbue pictures and designs with an appropriate antiquity, an overlayering of history and of echoes of those older stories, and The Fall of Númenor has proved a perfect opportunity to dig a little deeper into the rich history of Middle-earth.’

The Fall of Númenor will be published by HarperCollins with a simultaneous global publication date of November 2022, and subsequently in translation around the world.

The streaming series, The Rings of Power, set during the Second Age of Middle-earth, will be released by Amazon Prime in September 2022.

[Skulltaker]

The Hobbit and two covering Lord of the Rings. Mirmax later cut The Hobbit out of the project. Jackson kept trying to adapt what Miramax was saying he could. They didn't try. He actually cut his adaptation down to two movies that could be made with a $75 million shared budget. Two $37.5 million movies would have been nothing like what we got out of NLC. If New Line instead proposed a triology, restoring cuts from the script, and making it bigger and better then they clearly enabled the films to be what they are today.

Again you indicate I am right but only when you state it. They were the entire reason why the movies got made as they did.

Again, I don't, because you said New Line was the driving force behind the movies being made, which is just a lie. The driving force behind the Movies was Jackson. You can shift goalpoasts all you want, buddy, you remain a liar.