Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[PACOX]

I still don't know how I feel about the finale. This show is so rough that you second guess the parts you enjoy.

First, how do you do a finale while not even putting other storylines in a serviable place? The dwarves and people fleeing Mordor kind of just ignored.

A lot of people called the identity of Halbrand and the giant from the start, I'm relieved they writers didn't pull some nonsense. It was annoying when the Slim Shady witches had the wrong guy. That sequence would have been cool in a more polished show.

I think Halbrands actor killed it even if the writing was all over the place. He did some of as calculating villain who didn't do standard self sabotaging shit once they achieve a goal or get outed. The actor, IMO, played the scenes as best he could. I forced myself not to think too much about the way all that went down though AFTER he was outed. I would have just been better had Galadriel still broken his magic but too late to confront him.


Its a shame because the it's not like the show can't be amazing but it seems like there's enough people sprinkled in places of power to hold it back. The irony.


Hopefully the showrunners realize the potential of the show and fix it before season 2, when it comes out in 10 years. They compressed the timeline of Middle-Earth but not their own production.

[Raisei]

It's contrived to think that Galadriel's dagger is the only source of Valinor Gold and Silver that they had available. That it is even a plot point they used is quite dumbfounding, considering they're literally in an Elf city, that just built a giant tower for smithing, that houses one of the most reknowned Elven smiths. It doesn't make a lot of sense why they needed Galadriel's dagger at all, it just happened to be and everyone agreed it needed to be this specifically.

To be fair here. The dagger is well set up from the first episode. That much at least I can grant the show, the Checkow's gun was used succefully. And I can accept that after thousands of years away from Valinor they ran out of the original materials, they braught then. Maybe there are some other pieces in Lindon, but time was of the essence and it was quite possible that Gil-Galad would have told them to fuck off if they had requested some old artifact to melt it.

Of course then they melt the entire dagger, including the steel blade... guaranteeing that they get no pure gold or silver from it... apparently the greatest elven smith really has some deficiencies when it comes to how metal works...

[Kumorii]

It doesn't have to be the dagger. He was part of the trial and error and surely been handling the mithril himself. So you don't need the bit where she tries to stab him. I already assumed the mithril would be corrupted or under his control by then.

Hell, as we know from the books he didn't need to be there for the elven rings and still have influence... Because his teachings on how to craft them is causing them to be linked to him. His gift was the lore of ringcrafting after all. We also know the link is stronger if he's there when making them probably because he can perfect it.

These rings can be have either a weak or strong connection to him depending on how much involvement he requires and that's up to the show to determine.
My guess is they are going for weaker or none at all. Galadriel was the one deciding to make three after all.

It can still be technically correct.. but let's see if they handle it well.


To make an analogy.
It's like if I'm teaching you how to make a program. What you don't know said program allows me to take control of your device. If I'm there helping you making that program i can make sure it works flawlessly as I've intended. I can take fill control.
If you decide to make the program yourself with my teachings it still has the control parts in it. It might not work perfectly but I can still control your device with less functions.

Replace programming with magic and you got the ring situations as I understand them from the books.

[Raisei]

A lot of people called the identity of Halbrand and the giant from the start, I'm relieved they writers didn't pull some nonsense. It was annoying when the Slim Shady witches had the wrong guy. That sequence would have been cool in a more polished show.

It is quite frankly baffling how they managed to be wrong about this. They knew this guy fell from the sky, from the realm of the Maiar, while Sauron was already well established to be on Middle-Earth for centuries... how do you make such a mistake? Then they treated the big guy in ways that would most certainly make a Sauron kill them all if it was him.
Also, who or what even were the Feminems? They can't be Ringwraiths because duh, no rings, but their spiritual bodies surely looked like wraith.

It feels as if they were just put in there to give the series some Ringwraith like enemies, just as the writers didn't feel they could work a series without Hobbits... it is fascinating how little faith they had in the plots set down about the Second Age by Tolkien.


They shoved halve of LOTR into it with Wizards, Wraiths and Hobbits because they could not fill a series without those.

I think Halbrands actor killed it even if the writing was all over the place. He did some of as calculating villain who didn't do standard self sabotaging shit once they achieve a goal or get outed.

But he did. If he wanted to win, then all he needed to do was kill Galadriel while she was in his Mind Control. Hide the body and voila, Celebrimbor would have crafted the 2 Rings just a Sauron wanted. The only reason there are rings at all now is Galadriels hybris, believing that she can outsmart the guy by making 3 rings instead of 2, not to mention that she hid the fact that Halbrand was Sauron, which would have made Celebrimbor and Elrond most certainly stop the ringmaking at least until they could be sure that Sauron had not tampered with the materials and crafting process.

That is all basically just Sauron being veeeery lucky. Galadriel could probably not have helped him more if she had accepted his deal.

Hopefully the showrunners realize the potential of the show and fix it before season 2, when it comes out in 10 years. They compressed the timeline of Middle-Earth but not their own production.

I hope so, but from all their reactions to critics and what they already wrote about season 2, I have huge doubts. They do not seem to be able to deal with critical voices or see their own faults. Probably a result of that atmophere of (self-) congratulation that is very strong in Hollywood. "You are great, you write great, everything is great, fuck the critics."
Hopefully Amazon tells them to shut up and get Peter Jackson to help them. They sorely need it.

[PACOX]

But he did. If he wanted to win, then all he needed to do was kill Galadriel while she was in his Mind Control. Hide the body and voila, Celebrimbor would have crafted the 2 Rings just a Sauron wanted. The only reason there are rings at all now is Galadriels hybris, believing that she can outsmart the guy by making 3 rings instead of 2, not to mention that she hid the fact that Halbrand was Sauron, which would have made Celebrimbor and Elrond most certainly stop the ringmaking at least until they could be sure that Sauron had not tampered with the materials and crafting process.

That is all basically just Sauron being veeeery lucky. Galadriel could probably not have helped him more if she had accepted his deal.

I want to clarify. It's one of the parts I had to really just stop thinking about. The writing makes Sauron look silly but the performance by the actor, IMO, salvaged Sauron.

I can think and say, what Sauron did was ridiculous but the actor played the role well.

[Ophenia]

But he did. If he wanted to win, then all he needed to do was kill Galadriel while she was in his Mind Control. Hide the body and voila, Celebrimbor would have crafted the 2 Rings just a Sauron wanted. The only reason there are rings at all now is Galadriels hybris, believing that she can outsmart the guy by making 3 rings instead of 2, not to mention that she hid the fact that Halbrand was Sauron, which would have made Celebrimbor and Elrond most certainly stop the ringmaking at least until they could be sure that Sauron had not tampered with the materials and crafting process.

That is all basically just Sauron being veeeery lucky. Galadriel could probably not have helped him more if she had accepted his deal.

Honestly, when Galadriel went to Celebrimbor without informing them that Sauron was involved, I was half-convinced they would pull out a "Galadriel in that scene was in fact Sauron shape-shifting to get the Rings done", that would have explained Elrond's suspicious look at Galadriel like he's trying to figure out if it's really her.

I'm not sure that would have been better than what we had though.

I have to say most of Halbrand's grand scheme and whatever Galadriel did throughout this serie didn't make much sense to me.

[alach]

I want to comment on this show because I feel like its getting a bad rap from some people's personal biases and petty semantics.

I wasn't really interested in the show from the trailers, but I had 7 free days from prime so I figured - why not?
After watching it all in six days I have to say I was thoroughly entertained and pleasantly surprised. First of all and mostly, it was just gorgeous, I was blown away how good it looked. Those sweeping vistas and soaring camera shots that brought some much life and wonder to the Lord of the Rings trilogy was recreated here on the small screen, and they did it very well. Years ago I was really hoping for some shots like that in the Warcraft movie, something to really show the glory of the Azeroth or even Stormwind, but there wasn't and I still think lacking that was one of the bigger missteps of the director.
This really was one of the 'largest' tv shows I have ever seen.
The story itself was entertaing and engaging. I sensed the showrunners really respected both Tolkiens and Jacksons work, paying homage to both, like the odd song. The books themselves were littered with music and songwriting, most of which I skipped over when I read them when I was younger but it was nice here, in a visual medium.
I didn't lose attention, but I paced myself to enjoy it. The casting was great, especially the hobbits (harfoots). Some of them filled there roles so perfectly. Galadriel was great as well.
I really felt this was a worthy companion to the Lotr trilogy. They seemed so much more aligned than lotr and the hobbit - which was quite frankly a huge dissappointment.

I hope if theres anyone left on the fence of this one to give it a shot. I believe its worth it. Its a real shame there is so much talk about it but for all the wrong reasons.

[InfiniteCharger]

I'm just taking from the way you're writing that you believe this is a show that should never have been created because the premise is fundamentally flawed. That it was doomed from the start because they don't have the rights to everything. And I don't agree with that position

You just agreed in the sentence before that and summarized my point perfectly. Then you made up something to disagree with. Come on dude.

I am not convinced you're understanding what I am saying. You keep fixating on this idea that the combat needs to look realistic (ie as it would if it actually existed). What I am saying is that *realistic* and *what looks good on screen* are two very different things.

I think you are not understanding what I have been saying which is that all combat on screen is fake. So making it look 'realistic' has nothing to do with whether it matches "real world" combat or not. For example, people cannot fly under their own power in real life, but movies are made that try and make people flying look "realistic". In that context, what is "realistic" is a measure of the final result on screen, not whether or not it actually exists in the real world. The skill and talent involved in this is the same regardless and has to be taken seriously in order to have it payoff in the final product was my point. I get what you are saying but your argument is somewhat tangential to what I am saying. For example, you could have a movie about two people fencing in a tournament and even that would be "fake" and choreographed even if the result looks "realistic" based on your example. The skill involved in making it look "real" is very serious work was my point. And when people watch movies and tv, that is the only measure of "realism" that most people care about, which is whether or not it looks plausibly real, even if it doesn't literally match anything in the real world. All combat on screen is not out of this world fantasy and therefore there are some fights and combat scenes that are much more grounded in reality. So this isn't a question about whether all combat on film is based on "real fighting" but whether the result is believable in itself as "realistic" looking.

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J.R.R. Tolkien famously described the Second Age of Middle-earth as a ‘dark age, and not very much of its history is (or need be) told’. And for many years readers would need to be content with the tantalizing glimpses of it found within the pages of The Lord of the Rings and its appendices.

It was not until Christopher Tolkien presented The Silmarillion for publication in 1977 that a fuller story could be told for, though much of its content concerned the First Age of Middle-earth, there were at its close two key works that revealed the tumultuous events concerning the rise and fall of the island-kingdom of Númenor, the Forging of the Rings of Power, the building of the Barad-dûr and the rise of Sauron, and the Last Alliance of Elves and Men.

Key point in bold. Much of this prior era were his own personal attempts at world building and writing that he never expected to be published, just like Hobbit itself. I don't think he realized how popular his effort would be and appreciated in its attempt to flesh out a world with languages, lineages, customs and traditions going back thousands of years. And unfortunately most creators and studios are not interested in doing the work because making movies and TV shows are expensive. Writing on the other hand is cheap and only depends on the time, energy and imagination of the writer. Not to mention writing fantasy isn't constrained by real world physics and constraints.

[Syegfryed]

Also, who or what even were the Feminems? They can't be Ringwraiths because duh, no rings, but their spiritual bodies surely looked like wraith.

It feels as if they were just put in there to give the series some Ringwraith like enemies, just as the writers didn't feel they could work a series without Hobbits... it is fascinating how little faith they had in the plots set down about the Second Age by Tolkien.


They shoved halve of LOTR into it with Wizards, Wraiths and Hobbits because they could not fill a series without those.

Apparently, it's a mix of nostalgia attempt with member berries and self inserts.

"member the fight with Gandalf and Saruman guys??? a girl did first!!'' and so on

[Triceron]

Of course then they melt the entire dagger, including the steel blade... guaranteeing that they get no pure gold or silver from it... apparently the greatest elven smith really has some deficiencies when it comes to how metal works...

What really irked me is that they melted the gold and silver and steel altogether, threw in the mithril chunk that they had, and then made three rings of different colors...

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Apparently, it's a mix of nostalgia attempt with member berries and self inserts.

"member the fight with Gandalf and Saruman guys??? a girl did first!!'' and so on

'member when he says follow your nose? 'member??!

[Myradin]

It's contrived to think that Galadriel's dagger is the only source of Valinor Gold and Silver that they had available. That it is even a plot point they used is quite dumbfounding, considering they're literally in an Elf city, that just built a giant tower for smithing, that houses one of the most reknowned Elven smiths. It doesn't make a lot of sense why they needed Galadriel's dagger at all, it just happened to be and everyone agreed it needed to be this specifically.

The pessimist in me thinks they did it as an excuse why they can't just mass produce rings once they get more mithril.

The optomist in me thinks this was mostly meant to be a big symbolic moment for galadriel, but given she's had no character development, handing the dagger away, the symbol of her brother, means nothing. Like presumably this should have been the moment she becomes a more wise ruler or stops being such a karen, but the show makes it pretty clear she's still her annoying self.

[Raelbo]

You just agreed in the sentence before that and summarized my point perfectly. Then you made up something to disagree with. Come on dude.

Previous sentence: "Well of course, if they want a great show on their hands, they need a compelling story that fits well into the world Tolkien created. There is zero basis for claiming that this cannot be done. Whether it actually will is another question."

You're claiming it cannot be done. So no, I am not agreeing with you. I am agreeing with a part of your argument, but certainly not with the whole.

Come on dude.

[Ghost of Cow]

Just waiting for Durin to show up with some more rocks and be like, "...rings? Why'd you make rings? I just threw a rock at a leaf and it fixed it. The hell are rings even for? You wear them? Do you sit on the tree while wearing them? How does the mithril get to the tree, then? Just throw this rock at the tree, worked for me. Weird elves."

[Triceron]

The pessimist in me thinks they did it as an excuse why they can't just mass produce rings once they get more mithril.

The optomist in me thinks this was mostly meant to be a big symbolic moment for galadriel, but given she's had no character development, handing the dagger away, the symbol of her brother, means nothing. Like presumably this should have been the moment she becomes a more wise ruler or stops being such a karen, but the show makes it pretty clear she's still her annoying self.

I get the show wants to make the dagger important to her and it is sentimentally. But as a symbol, I (my opinion) can't see it being more than merely an object of value because the show already showed how easily she could have been parted from it if Elendil or Halbrand were more of an ass and kept/sold the dagger when they had their hands on it.

And since we're on the topic, Elendil didn't even notice he had the dagger stolen from him. Galadriel uses it later right in front of him, he doesn't seem to care either. Like, Halbrand stealing the dagger should have been the thing that put him in jail honestly.

[rhorle]

What really irked me is that they melted the gold and silver and steel altogether, threw in the mithril chunk that they had, and then made three rings of different colors...

Only one is a different color. When the 3 ingots are made there are two silver and one gold. When the rings are made there are two gold and one silver. They kept the same color scheme of the Jackson films. Doesn't Tolkien only describe the color of two? One made of gold and one made of Mithril? I can't find a reference to what Narya was made of.

It seems a goof on the show when you compare the ingots to rings but it is plausible that the rings have a different mixture of the metals and thus could make a different colored alloy. Adding things to gold changes the color you get (rose, white, etc). Plus there is always the "magic" excuse. It will be interesting if they keep the trait of being invisible or if the show get rid of that so they can be seen.

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The pessimist in me thinks they did it as an excuse why they can't just mass produce rings once they get more mithril.

It could just because they only had 3 weeks. Objects from Valinor might not be something that is easy to get a hold of or destroyed for experiments. It is plausible they might use her dagger if she willingly offers it. As you say it is likely just the symbolism though unless the show makes the dagger touched by Sauron or something.

[Triceron]

Only one is a different color. When the 3 ingots are made there are two silver and one gold.

Yes and that's the movie magic part.

They melted the dagger as one pool of 'molten metal', and ended up with 3 ingots of two silver one gold. The Mithril wasn't parted into 3, it was tossed into the single batch of molten metal, and it doesn't make sense that somehow that gets parted into Silver and Gold ingots at all.

I get they wanted to portray it this way because it's more 'symbolic' to Galadriel if she's looking at the molten dagger as a whole and watching the mithril be added to it. But if you know anything about metallurgy, this isn't the way ingots are produced. And I'm not interested in some bogus 'Elven magic' explanation like 'That mold they pour the molten metal into separates the gold and silver parts for you'


Rings of Power has some great visuals, and there's plenty I'm willing to overlook. But when it's something as obvious as one single pool of metal creating distinctly separate Gold and Silver ingots from a single dagger being melted down, yeah I don't buy that at all.

Also, this project was centered around Gil-Galad, Elrond and Celebrimbor. Galadriel's involvement ended up being shoehorned into it with her dagger being the 'key' to creating the Rings for seemingly no good reason. It's not like the original lore mandated that the Rings needed Valinor Gold and Silver to be created in the first place. That explanation is literally invented to make her dagger seem all the more important for this very scene. That's it.


I don't really see this as being something that fits full circle and giving the 3 Rings more of a connection to Galadriel because it's forged from her brother's dagger, I think it's all too convenient an explanation, much like how Mithril itself is becoming the magical cure for the corruption that threatens the Elves. It's an explanation that works for this adaptation, sure, but it's not one that I think is necessary to tell the story of the forging of the Rings of Power. Like, the Rings themselves are powerful enough on their own (in the original lore) without Mithril being the key reason they are so prized. Mithril being this important would imply that the mithril chainmail would be just as important as the 3 Elven Rings to the Elves. Mithril should just be a very sturdy, durable and light-weight metal. The entire starlight and corruption-saving property really messes with some of the logic already applied in LOTR. And yes, beyond 'See, the Rings are more special because they mixed in gold and silver from Valinor!!', yeah, that still wouldn't cover the fact that Frodo has a mithril chainmail that would be all-too-important to the Elves based on RoP's explanation.

[Xath]

It is a little early to be complaining about something being a retcon when the show hasn't even covered those events. Why not pick one of the many things the show has shown to be changed? Ar-Pharazon can still become King and can still capture Sauron.

Tar becoming Queen at all is a retcon. She was never crowned as Tar Miriel Pharazon forced her to marry him and was crowned king, after which he forcibly changed her name. Seriously just stop talking about that which you know nothing.

[rhorle]

They melted the dagger as one pool of 'molten metal', and ended up with 3 ingots of two silver one gold. The Mithril wasn't parted into 3, it was tossed into the single batch of molten metal, and it doesn't make sense that somehow that gets parted into Silver and Gold ingots at all.

The color can make sense depending on the ratio in the alloy. As I said gold itself can change colors based on what it is mixed with and the fictional mithril could behave the same way. Or the pool of molten metal might not have equal amounts of each metal through out which could also explain a variance. Remember to that Elves, at one point, could make blades that glowed when orcs were nearby. It isn't that crazy that magic could change properties of molten or finished products slightly.

Though as I said the ingot scene seems a goof. I wonder if they would edit it after the fact if it is actually a mistake. The Starbucks cup for GoT or green finger for HotD come to mind as fixes of that nature. Or the digitally imposed ad in Jack Reacher being removed after the episode premiered.

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Tar becoming Queen at all is a retcon. She was never crowned as Tar Miriel Pharazon forced her to marry him and was crowned king, after which he forcibly changed her name. Seriously just stop talking about that which you know nothing.

She isn't the Queen yet on the show. Only the queen-reagent. It still doesn't change that the events the person was complaining about haven't been covered by the show yet and have yet to be changed from Tolkien's work. So just let your grudge against me go and stop making a fool of yourself.

[Triceron]

The color can make sense depending on the ratio in the alloy. As I said gold itself can change colors based on what it is mixed with and the fictional mithril could behave the same way. Or the pool of molten metal might not have equal amounts of each metal through out which could also explain a variance. Remember to that Elves, at one point, could make blades that glowed when orcs were nearby. It isn't that crazy that magic could change properties of molten or finished products slightly.

Though as I said the ingot scene seems a goof. I wonder if they would edit it after the fact if it is actually a mistake. The Starbucks cup for GoT or green finger for HotD come to mind as fixes of that nature. Or the digitally imposed ad in Jack Reacher being removed after the episode premiered.

Yeah, I'm not really dogging on movie magic for the sake of movie magic. I totally get it.

I'm just saying that from a viewer POV, it takes me out of it when I'm literally seeing these scenes stitched together in this way, one after another.

It's like a meme.

Step 1: Melt the dagger
Step 2: Add Mithril
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit

[Shadowferal]

Tar becoming Queen at all is a retcon. She was never crowned as Tar Miriel Pharazon forced her to marry him and was crowned king, after which he forcibly changed her name. Seriously just stop talking about that which you know nothing.

The guy only reads the equivalent of cliff notes...and his debate logic rarely exceeds preschool levels. Why bother...

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