1. #7161
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I wouldn’t call it a mistake at all. The point of melting down the dagger is more thematic anyway. Getting so drawn up in such a minor detail as the color of the metal while touting the source material as some magnificent work of art that shouldn’t be tampered with despite it being devoid of SO MUCH detail is just more nitpicking from the usual suspects.
    If each ingot was turned into a ring then it does indicate a mistake unless one is just gold-plated. There isn't much silver-colored metal on Vilya. It is possible they just had a extra ingot or left over material I guess. It could be something Sauron steals in Season 2 or used to create the other rings. It isn't a big deal that a mistake like that exists but it is still a continuity goof for the show as far as we know. It being a mistake has nothing to do with Tolkien's work.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #7162
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If each ingot was turned into a ring then it does indicate a mistake unless one is just gold-plated. There isn't much silver-colored metal on Vilya. It is possible they just had a extra ingot or left over material I guess. It could be something Sauron steals in Season 2 or used to create the other rings. It isn't a big deal that a mistake like that exists but it is still a continuity goof for the show as far as we know. It being a mistake has nothing to do with Tolkien's work.
    Rewatching the two second scene where you see the three ingots, the one in the background, though slightly out of focus, doesn’t look quite silver like the one closer to the foreground (not quite gold either, though). Looks almost more brass colored. Maybe just the lighting. Is there somewhere else the three ingots were seen more clearly?

  3. #7163
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Who said the rings weren’t important? Or are you just looking for a straw man to jerk off?
    Are they, though?
    How is it spelled story-wise?

  4. #7164
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Again. It is plausible that the molten pool has a different composition if things are not evenly distributed. Not to mention how mithril behaves in an alloy is an unknown factor. It could simply be that it takes hues of what it is mixed with. You know like copper mixed with gold makes it pinkish. It is silly to keep including that part in the criticism when the only attention to detail they missed was the color of the ingots being mismatched to the rings.
    Yes but it's the same pool of metal used for all 3 rings. They didn't split the mithril into multiple parts to use for 3 different rings, they literally tossed what they had into the same pool of metal, and there's no reason why a 'copper mixed with gold' alloy would yield three different colored results. If it's pinkish, then it's pinkish when split three ways, not one being pink another being copper colored and another being gold. What you're trying to explain doesn't make sense in how one pool of molten metal yields three different results, because we literally see them creating a single alloy out of the mithril, not three separate alloys.

    The show doesn't bank on people not paying attention. Mistakes happen hence why Game of Thrones had a starbucks cup and House of the Dragons forgot to digitally remove fingers and left the green tape around the fingers.
    Well it's not a mistake that they showed one pool of metal with the mithril dropped in right? Not a mistake that they melted the dagger as a whole as one piece instead of separating the gold and silver parts right? If this whole sequence is a mistake then sure, I can agree with you, but it's clear that they don't care enough about the entire sequence to really show how the ingots were differentiated. It's as magical as Arondir's buzzcut.

    Like, people can call this shit out as nitpicks, and sure, that's what these are. But it's details that have been clear they haven't been putting effort in making sense in their own world, and it's a criticism that still holds true to the final episode for the most important part of the show - the creation of the rings. Even if these are nitpicks, even if it's movie magic, it's not excusable by merely saying 'it was a mistake like the Starbucks cup in GoT'. No, it's not comparable to the Starbucks cup at all here. These are deliberate sequences presenting something that simply isn't realistic or sensible. These are scenes that were watched over many times by many people who work on the show, going through multiple iterations of approval. And this final result is what was approved. It's not a random exposition scene we're talking about here, it's quite a pivotal moment.

    As someone who works in film and vfx, it really boggles the mind how this got passed into the final cut. It comes down to two explanations - either hundreds of people fell asleep at the job and missed it, or the more sensible reason that who ever approved the sequencing ultimately didn't care about the realism to have it fixed, be it pushing mistakes through because they had no time for reshoots or meeting a deadline or whatever it may be.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-19 at 06:19 PM.

  5. #7165
    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    Are they, though?
    How is it spelled story-wise?
    Is that a real question? I already explained above to someone that needed it spelled out that the crafting of the rings is connected all through the Elrond/Celebrimbor/Durin story that kicks off in the first episode. The rings are the culmination of a major project. It also draws in part of Galadriel’s arc with her giving up the dagger (symbolic of her revenge quest) as well as linking them to Sauron’s plans. If you weren’t paying attention then that’s on you.

  6. #7166
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Who said the rings weren’t important? Or are you just looking for a straw man to jerk off?
    You did.
    But I'm sure you'll try to clean yourself up.

  7. #7167
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes but it's the same pool of metal used for all 3 rings. They didn't split the mithril into multiple parts to use for 3 different rings, they literally tossed what they had into the same pool of metal, and there's no reason why a 'copper mixed with gold' alloy would yield three different colored results.
    We already had this conversation. It would if the composition of the individual metals is different. Just like you can make different tints of Gold with what metal is mixed in. If some ingots had a higher ration of Gold, Silver, or Mithril it could impact the final color. It also isn't 3 different colors which we already covered in a past conversation.

    The steel could have been important to the final product just as much as the purity of the gold and silver. We also don't know if the blade was 100% steel, right? One pool of metal could have a different ratio if not mixed fully. We also don't know what impact a magical metal will have. So you can't call it a mistake. Arondir's buzzcut isn't magical either. You really do have a grudge against the character huh? Manually clippers exist.

    2 silver ingots and 1 gold ingot can be called the same as a starbucks cup or fingers still existing on a hand after being cut off. Because it is a simple error of color. If the ingots were clearly 2 gold and 1 silver then it wouldn't be an issue.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-10-19 at 06:28 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  8. #7168
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Is that a real question? I already explained above to someone that needed it spelled out that the crafting of the rings is connected all through the Elrond/Celebrimbor/Durin story that kicks off in the first episode. The rings are the culmination of a major project. It also draws in part of Galadriel’s arc with her giving up the dagger (symbolic of her revenge quest) as well as linking them to Sauron’s plans. If you weren’t paying attention then that’s on you.
    And the creation of the Rings "isn't important" as you stated earlier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    The importance wasn’t in the creation of the rings themselves, .

  9. #7169
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Is that a real question?
    Yes, it is.
    Are the Rings important to the plot?
    Why? How?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    And the creation of the Rings "isn't important" as you stated earlier.
    Touche.

    French language can sometimes be quite precise.

  10. #7170
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    And the creation of the Rings "isn't important" as you stated earlier.
    The items and the creation process are two different things, you dope. The rings are important in that they drive other parts of the story but we don’t need an extra 5minutes of pouring metal and polishing gems to convey that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    Yes, it is.
    Are the Rings important to the plot?
    Why? How?
    See above and realize that you’re conflating two different things.

  11. #7171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    Are the Rings important to the plot?
    Did you watch the show? The rings are an event of significance but not overly important to the plot of Season 1. They likely will be present for the plot going forward and influence events. The quote you, and Shadowferal, are misrepresenting is not saying that the rings are not important. Only that their creation was not the important part of their story.

    If it was the One Ring? Sure as its creation should be more important because of how it binds all the others.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #7172
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    We already had this conversation. It would if the composition of the individual metals is different. Just like you can make different tints of Gold with what metal is mixed in. If some ingots had a higher ration of Gold, Silver, or Mithril it could impact the final color. It also isn't 3 different colors which we already covered in a past conversation. It is weird you forgot when you even said it is acceptable because of "movie magic".
    Are you talking about the rings and the ingots?

    They are indeed 3 different colors. And they are made out of a single mithril + Valinor Gold and Silver and Steel alloy.

    I said I'm willing to accept it as movie magic, and that's in the context that the show doesn't give a fuck about realism. Just like I can accept Legolas surfing down stairs while firing off arrows is movie magic in the context of not caring about realism for the sake of being cool. It doesn't make it free of criticism or absolve it of being nonsensical. Just like I can accept that children in a playground are going to scream even if you tell them not to, it doesn't make it okay that children are screaming. It's merely acceptable, not free of being problematic.

    If your answer to this is 'Well it's just a mistake, like the Starbucks cup in GoT' then I'm literally explaining to you that no, this is a full sequence of many multiple shots that has multiple continuity errors within it, and that is not equatable to a single sequence that has a cup in the shot that they forgot to remove in post production.

    The nature of the mistake is not the same. And it's acceptable in the context that this show and the audience it's made for doesn't really give a fuck about the details. These issues really only exist in the enthusiasts like the few on this board who care enough about the details to point out the inaccuracies.

    The steel could have been important to the final product just as much as the purity of the gold and silver. We also don't know if the blade was 100% steel, right? One pool of metal can have a different ratio if not mixed fully. We also don't know what impact a magical metal will have. So you can't call it a mistake. Arondir's buzzcut isn't magical either. You really do have a grudge against the character huh? Manually clippers exist.
    Then you're implying headcanon that somehow the single dagger they put into the forge and came out with a single pool of metal somehow yields different ratios of gold/silver/steel/Mithril within it to make 3 different colored ingots. That doesn't make sense even when you explain it like this. The entire explanation they gave for having this single alloy is because they needed to coax the metals together rather than forcing it and that they don't have time to experiment on many different alloys. And they literally show them not even taking the time to separate the metals of the dagger before smelting. So whatever explanation you're trying to give me is nothing more than your headcanon, because the show literally shows the single dagger being melted as one pool of metal, with the full chunk of mithril tossed in.

    Like, in what world does your explanation make more sense than merely brushing this off as movie magic? At least by saying it's movie magic, I literally accept the inaccuracies being presented. If you're trying to realistically explain the inaccuracies as being plausible, then your explanation is unrealistic. Kinda like if I said a James Bond villain firing rifle shots into the water to try and kill someone is unrealistic because the bullets lose momentum in water, but I can accept it as 'movie magic'. And then you come in and try to explain that because the villain could be using a higher-powered rifle that makes it realistically plausible, I'd say no it still wouldn't be because that's not how physics work and the explanation is just as stupid in the context of how the movie portrays bullets in water. Any rifle capable of firing bullets that streak through the water as shown in movies would be powerful enough to take the arm off the person wielding the gun. You can't try and explain away movie magic with some plausible realistic explanation when it isn't realistic to begin with.

    2 silver ingots and 1 gold ingot can be called the same as a starbucks cup or fingers still existing on a hand after being cut off. Because it is a simple error of color. If the ingots were clearly 2 gold and 1 silver then it wouldn't be an issue. It is like you are purposefully being obtuse here when you already agreed with me on what was the goof in an earlier post. Why ignore that just to keep whining about stuff now?
    It's not a mistake that they have three different colored ingots crafted from one pool of metal. It is an unrealistic, inaccurate portrayal of mettalurgy and how alloys are created (in real life). It is an intentionally unrealistic portrayal for film, one that doesn't need explanation, but can still be pointed out as being unrealistic and inaccurate to real life.

    The ratio explanation just doesn't work at all, because we're literally shown the dagger melting in full in one go. It's not like they melted it in parts and merely implied that they had three separate alloys with different ratios for each. You're attempting to explain something that doesn't need to be explained, and I'm pointing out why there's no reason for you to even go to these lengths. You have no reason to try to explain it as though it could ever make sense realistically. It can't. That you personally think it is because of different ratios comes from your own choice to imply headcanon to make sense of things that don't make sense. It doesn't actually work the way you think it does in real life, just like bullets in water don't travel further just because you might have an alternative explanation in mind that would make it work.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-19 at 07:05 PM.

  13. #7173
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    See above and realize that you’re conflating two different things.
    That does not answer my question: ARE the Rings important to the plot?

    Well, are they? If yes, how and how's it's shown?

  14. #7174
    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    That does not answer my question: ARE the Rings important to the plot?

    Well, are they? If yes, how and how's it's shown?
    You already quoted my post where I explained that to you. I know English isn’t your first language but it was only three sentences. If you’re having trouble with that then I’m not sure any more explanation would help.

  15. #7175
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Are you talking about the rings and the ingots?
    No. They are only two different colors. There are two gold colored rings and 1 silver colored ring. There are silver colored ingots and 1 gold colored ingot. We don't know what the magical Mithril does when in an alloy. It is silly to argue realism with a magical metal. However we know in the real world that the ratio of metals in an alloy can impact the color. If you don't have the same ratio of copper and gold you will have two different tints of rose gold. Since they are skimming off the top it is possible that a different ratios exist in the molten pool.

    Again, since you seem to be unable to understand, I am saying the color of the ingots to the color of the rings is the "goof". A color mismatch is equivalent to a starbucks cup or green screen fingers not being erased. I'm not sure how you think I'm equating that to the entire process of casting the ingots when I have never said that. You keep creating a strawman and it is silly.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  16. #7176
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    You already quoted my post where I explained that to you. I know English isn’t your first language but it was only three sentences. If you’re having trouble with that then I’m not sure any more explanation would help.
    I believe there's a guy by the name of Adamas102, I think you've met him before, and here's what he has to say to you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    The importance wasn’t in the creation of the rings themselves, but rather all that came after.

  17. #7177
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is silly to argue realism with a magical metal.
    Then why are you arguing?

    By all means, you could have said that the two silver ingots and one gold ingot creating two gold rings and one silver ring isn't a mistake either, because you don't know the magical properties of mithril. But you didn't, you called it out as being a mistake. Somehow, that is a mistake, even though you admit you think that mithril has magical properties that no one can explain? Seems like you're just arguing me for the sake of it then, doesn't it?


    If your entire argument here is 'You can't call it unrealistic because I have X Y Z explanations for how it could possibly work' then I'm pointing out none of your explanations are actually realistic at all. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing since your explanations all end up defaulting to 'Mithril is magical and can't be explained' once you run out of stupid excuses :/
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-19 at 07:34 PM.

  18. #7178
    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    I believe there's a guy by the name of Adamas102, I think you've met him before, and here's what he has to say to you:
    Yeah, so you’re just like that other poster that didn’t note that the rings as a plot device and the creation process are two different things, except where he realized his mistake and stopped responding, you keep having trouble letting it sink in.

    “I already explained above to someone that needed it spelled out that the crafting of the rings is connected all through the Elrond/Celebrimbor/Durin story that kicks off in the first episode. The rings are the culmination of a major project. It also draws in part of Galadriel’s arc with her giving up the dagger (symbolic of her revenge quest) as well as linking them to Sauron’s plans.”

    The show actually makes the rings even more important overall by connecting them to other characters and events, but the final process of pouring metal and polishing stones is not of great importance and didn’t need more time spent on it to convey the importance of the rings themselves. Does that clear it up for you?

  19. #7179
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    By all means, I could say that your indication that the two silver ingots and one gold ingot creating two gold rings and one silver ring isn't a mistake either, because you don't know the magical properties of mithril.
    There is a difference between metal being different colors depending on the ratio of the alloy and it changing colors after shaped into a ring. All you are doing is creating a strawman because you can't counter the other. We know, in real life, that the ratio of material in an alloy determines color and the shade of color. The fiction aspect comes into play with Mithril and how it impacts the alloy.

    The show doesn't bank on people not caring about the details and doesn't expect the audience to merely believe in movie magic. Alloy being a different color based on metals used is a realistic portrayal. It is also sensible. Just as you didn't know about manual cutters existing you don't know as much about metallurgy as you think. Even your explanation of "banks on" doesn't fit your argument.

    Materials are melted to make an alloy. The show does that. Material is cast into an ingot or other shape. The show does that. They don't need to show measuring because they don't know what to measure or did it off screen. Hence why Celebrimbor asked for pure gold/silver to begin with. A single pool can yield different colors if the ratio of materials isn't uniform. The show doesn't show it being uniform as that is one of your complaints. You really are just creating reasons out of thin air to justify your "The show doesn't care about details" conclusion.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  20. #7180
    If the three materials are unevenly mixed causing them having pure colored results... then the mithril isn't evenly mixed, hell... one or two rings might have 0 of it.
    Lets not even mention how shitty of a smith Celebrimbor must be to not mix it considering the importance.

    As @Triceron says, it's a production error... It makes much more sense going with the characters in the series actually did it properly considering the importance and the production went with aesthetics rather than logic or just didn't think of how this would play out for real. Which is absolutely fine. It's fun to point out and make fun of though.
    And I'm sure a lot of production people will laugh at it if it's a genuine mistake. Or some people are tearing their hair out because they warned about it constantly and they ignored it and went with "rule of cool" instead.

    Remember working on a movie as a new person in the industry and when putting together a trailer they made and exporting it I pointed out a camera man sitting backwards on a carusel swing going right past the camera. Literally NO ONE had noticed it and I got told the directors and produces had a good laugh because it was such a silly thing to miss since he covered like 20% of the screen and went straight across it.
    This shit happens. No point in trying to excuse it by making the series characters straight up idiotic.... Or more idiotic that is.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-10-19 at 07:36 PM.
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