1. #7181
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Previous sentence: "Well of course, if they want a great show on their hands, they need a compelling story that fits well into the world Tolkien created. There is zero basis for claiming that this cannot be done. Whether it actually will is another question."

    You're claiming it cannot be done. So no, I am not agreeing with you. I am agreeing with a part of your argument, but certainly not with the whole.

    Come on dude.
    But I never said it absolutely cannot be done. I said that Amazon never had a compelling story to begin with which is what made this an albatross and I made that clear in the previous paragraph stating it would be judged on its own merits. Which is where your disagreement makes no sense because you agreed with what I actually wrote and then made up something I never said to disagree with.

  2. #7182
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There is a difference between metal being different colors depending on the ratio of the alloy and it changing colors after shaped into a ring. All you are doing is creating a strawman because you can't counter the other. We know, in real life, that the ratio of material in an alloy determines color and the shade of color. The fiction aspect comes into play with Mithril and how it impacts the alloy.

    Then why did you call it a mistake that the ingots do not correspond to the color of the rings?

    You can't explain it either way. It just is, because of unexplained 'magical' reasons, whether we're talking about fictional Middle Earth magical properties of Mithril, or 'don't think about how the science works' movie magic. There's no reason you should be arguing at all here, really.

    You can't say the show depicted things realistically all while admitting that it employs unrealistic explanations. It's a fucking non argument for the sake of arguing.

    Hence why Celebrimbor asked for pure gold/silver to begin with. A single pool can yield different colors if the ratio of materials isn't uniform.
    THen you're also implying that some of the rings contain less mithril than the others, which goes against Galadriel's own statement about having 3 Rings to bring about balance. Not very balanced if one of the rings you're implying the rings have an unequal distribution of mithril within them.

    You can stop coming up with explanations because I'm literally not looking for any. We BOTH agree that it's unrealistic, so there's no reason to try and justify it as being realistic after we're both in agreement that it's simply not. All you're doing is making yourself look stupid trying to explain as being realistic by describing scenarios which are completely irrational and nonsensical to the entire point of the show. Like, it's movie magic because they want 3 Rings that match the Peter Jackson ring designs, and they didn't care enough to depict their forging in a way that actually makes sense realistically. That's all fine.

    You don't need to come up with excuses for something that isn't your fault, bro. Telling me that I don't know how the alloys would work because of ratios and whatnot is just stupid, because I can say you don't know how that works either, and you end up defaulting to saying 'Mithril is magic!' to cover what you can't explain. I won't stop you from speaking, since I know how much you hate to 'be silenced', I'm just saying you're going nowhere with this argument and you can drop any time.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-19 at 07:50 PM.

  3. #7183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then why did you call it a mistake that the ingots do not correspond to the color of the rings?
    How many times do I actually have to tell you that? I told you the other day. I told you today. I'll tell you again.

    The color changing after the material was cast is the goof. The color of the ingots are 1 gold and 2 silver. The color of the rings are 2 gold 1 silver. Color can change when mixing the alloy but not afterwards. I even told you that it is possible they plated one ring since Vilya has some silver material as an accent.

    It is a fantasy show using a special forge created by the Dwarves to create an alloy of a metal created from a magical ore. Of course realism won't fully apply. However mixing of alloys isn't a unrealistic depiction. I'm discussing for the same reason you are. Because I want to. Why do you have to keep trying to gate keep discussion by requiring a reason? All you'll do is pick it apart for whatever reason suits your current mood.
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  4. #7184
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How many times do I actually have to tell you that? I told you the other day. I told you today. I'll tell you again.

    The color changing after the material was cast is the goof. The color of the ingots are 1 gold and 2 silver. The color of the rings are 2 gold 1 silver. Color can change when mixing the alloy but not afterwards
    You can tell me that Elven Forges have the ability to unbake a cake back into its original ingredients as much as you'd like, it doesn't make you sound any less ridiculous. You're not making sense out of a fantasy scenario by applying false logic to it. I mean I could just as much say a robot from the future came back in time off screen and used his technology to separate the metals for them just the same. It doesn't make it any more sensible as an explanation. It's pointless to even try to explain it. It's a fictional scenario with inconsistencies, that's just what it will be.

    You can stop any time dude. I'm not the one who claimed this to be a mistake at all. I said from the beginning, this is merely how the show depicts it, it is movie magic, and it is unrealistic. Whether it is a mistake or not is not something I will call it out for being, it's merely an inconsistency.

    Just like Smaug in the first Hobbit movie was hinted at having front claws (4 legs), while his full reveal and design in the 2nd movie is shown as a Wyvern design. I can accept this as an inconsistency and as a design change - movie magic. I don't need someone telling me how Smaug magically lost his forearms or had an 'evolutionary shift' to explain the changes. I don't need someone telling me how my perception of this change being inconsistent is wrong because I don't know the magical biology of Dragons. Like, these are non-arguments for the sake of perpetuating some bad faith bullshit.

    You can stop shitposting any time.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-19 at 08:21 PM.

  5. #7185
    I mean, you can separate metals even after alloying them - and I'm sure with some "Elven craftsmanship" they can go above and beyond reality - but I'm not sure why they wouldn't just do separate mixtures to begin with in this case.

  6. #7186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Color can not change when mixing the alloy in the way that the show depicted it. Before the mithril was added, the Dagger was already shown melted into one single pool of metal. All you would be implying is the color of the alloys are dependent on an unequal amount of Mithril being in each ingot
    You do realize that different ratios create different shades? So what I'm implying is realistic. Yet here you are still trying to find ways to argue against that, strange right? The mixture is also stirred by the Dwarven forge. It is possible that things didn't get evenly distributed or the mithril bonded in different ways.

    I never said shaping of the rings changes colors. That is what I've been calling the goof. How many times have I told you that yet you still ignore it to create an argument in your head. I haven't ignored any claim I've made. Lmao. Of course the color change could be magical. The rings themselves can turn invisible so why not color as well?
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-10-19 at 08:26 PM.
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  7. #7187
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    I mean, you can separate metals even after alloying them - and I'm sure with some "Elven craftsmanship" they can go above and beyond reality - but I'm not sure why they wouldn't just do separate mixtures to begin with in this case.
    That's the point. They didn't do that at all. They threw the chunk of mithril into a single pool of metal that is implied to be the content of the daggers as a whole, so trying to explain it as the Elves having done so wouldn't work with the way the show depicted it all.

    I mean it'd actually make sense if they omitted the scene of the dagger being melted and taken directly to the forge, and just show us the mithril being added to some 'metal'. That would still allow room to imagine that gold and silver could have been added off screen.

    It's just an odd sequence altogether, and I'm not sure what they were thinking about when planning out the entire scene knowing that they're going to match the Peter Jackson ring designs at the end of it.

  8. #7188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That's the point. They didn't do that at all.
    How do you know the Dwarven forge didn't do that somehow? Or that the siphon they used didn't do that? Elves can make metal blades glow when orcs are nearby so maybe that siphon is enchanted?
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  9. #7189
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You do realism that you can different ratios create different shades? So what I'm implying is realistic. Yet here you are still trying to find ways to argue against that, strange right? The mixture is also stirred by the Dwarven forge. It is possible that things didn't get evenly distributed.


    Do you see any shade of gold at all in the silver colored ring? I don't. Because it doesn't have any hint of gold color in it at all. It's meant to be a silver colored ring. That is literally how the show depicts Nenya. How or why it is Silver colored is completely unexplained. It is merely a Silver colored ring.

    The show explains all three rings are made from the same material while depicting Nenya as being very definitively silver colored through movie magic. There is no explanation for why they are different colors other than that they are. That's it.

    Whatever reasoning you're trying to apply here doesn't work because you can't even prove that they have different ratios of metal within them. Like, you literally can't. You're just telling me 'My explanation that I can't prove makes you wrong for arguing that it doesn't make sense'.

    Bad mutherfucking faith argument, my dear friend. Bad mutherfucking faith.


    You don't actually know that these rings contain a different ratio of metal within them. You're just assuming that. There are no facts here that disprove anything buddy, just your will to argue something for the sake of telling other people they're wrong because you don't happen to like what's being said.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-19 at 08:35 PM.

  10. #7190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Do you see any shade of gold at all in the silver ring? I don't. Because it doesn't have any gold in it at all. It's meant to be a silver ring.
    Please indicate where I said the silver colored ring was not meant to be silver-colored? You are creating your own argument in your head and then posting here as if it is something I've said. Lmao.

    The spinning forge does show 3 rings of different shades. It is possible that is how the different colors were siphoned off. It still doesn't explain the 2 silver 1 gold ingots and 2 gold 1 silver rings though. Of course there are no facts to indicate anything I am saying. Just as there are no facts to indicate what you are saying. The only one acting in bad faith here is yourself who is now turning to personal insults just because your argument fails you. Not to mention how your are telling me I am wrong, bad faith, shit poster, and etc just because you don't like what I'm saying. Lmao.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-10-19 at 08:39 PM.
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  11. #7191
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How do you know the Dwarven forge didn't do that somehow? Or that the siphon they used didn't do that? Elves can make metal blades glow when orcs are nearby so maybe that siphon is enchanted?
    Because the show didn't depict the Dwarven forge doing it.

    If the show doesn't depict it, there is no reason to assume something that lacked explaining is at work here. That is the the responsibility of the show to define clearly, or leave ambiguous with no explanation. It's not up to the viewer to fill in the blanks with headcanon to make sense of something that doesn't makes sense. All we can do as a viewer is point out when something doesn't make sense, and merely speculate at our own behest. But speculation does not somehow excuse the show for lacking an explanation, nor does speculation cover its inconsistencies and holes.

    Like, I could easily speculate they made 3 Rings out of the same gold-colored material and merely plated Nenya with a coat of silver to explain it away. Easy explanation that would make complete sense. But that doesn't mean it'd be what the show actually depicts, or what would be universally regarded as being true to how the show depicts what happened. The show depicts all three Rings being forged from the same material, and doesn't explain how they came about being different colors. That's it.

    I wouldn't apply any more outside explanation to it any more than what is depicted in the show otherwise we aren't talking about the show any more, we're talking about headcanon. And that's exactly what you're doing with the Ratio explanation, and why I'm denouncing it completely. I've said clearly that if that's what you want to believe then that's fine as your opinion, but you can't use that as some kind of argument to say you provided a realistic explanation that makes the show free from criticism over its lack of consistency and realism.

    I mean, you're effectively just trolling be even asserting that I could be wrong for merely pointing out that the show has an inconsistency that I do not find believable. Who are you to tell me that I have to believe your own bullshit headcanon reasoning?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The spinning forge does show 3 rings of different shades. It is possible that is how the different colors were siphoned off.
    This happened AFTER the mithril was added, so all you're suggesting is the rings are colored differently because they contain different ratios of Mithril. Again, I don't buy that explanation nor do I even consider it plausible based on what the show depicts. It literally does not explain how the forge comes about creating different colored ingots, it just does.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-19 at 08:46 PM.

  12. #7192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I mean, you're effectively just trolling be even asserting that I could be wrong for merely pointing out that the show has an inconsistency that I do not find believable. Who are you to tell me that I have to believe your own bullshit headcanon reasoning?
    You are re-writing what you stated after the fact. You were making an argument of realism and stated there were 3 colors. That is what started this and you discussed it before you know trying to use "It is what I believe" as a smoking gun to end any and all discussion.
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  13. #7193
    The "silver" ring could very easily pass for electrum, if anything the weird part is how gold the other two are when two of the metals aren't gold.

    I don't know why anyone is assuming the color here anyway, as if anyone somehow understands what color a mithril-gold-silver hybrid alloy should look like, while also seemingly lacking the basic understanding of metallurgy to know that a single alloy can produce a wide variety of colors with something as simple as what temperature it's brought to during heat treatment.



    That this is what is being debated, in a universe where the elven smiths famously make weapons that can fucking glow blue when a specific sort of enemy is nearby, is insane.
    Last edited by Hitei; 2022-10-19 at 08:54 PM.

  14. #7194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    This happened AFTER the mithril was added, so all you're suggesting is the rings are colored differently because they contain different ratios of Mithril. Again, I don't buy that explanation nor do I even consider it plausible based on what the show depicts. It literally does not explain how the forge comes about creating different colored ingots, it just does.
    Yes, the ingots were created after the mithril was added. Lmao. You just didn't pay attention to the imagery of the show. It depicts 3 rings of different colors of orange. Each ingot is siphoned off from the top most part of the container which could mean each ingot was formed from those 3 rings. Those rings formed after the mithril was added.

    https://imgur.com/a/wTJXNOu
    https://imgur.com/a/X9Anecl


    1:03:04 is the time stamp if you want to watch it for yourself
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-10-19 at 08:54 PM.
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  15. #7195
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You are re-writing what you stated after the fact. You were making an argument of realism and stated there were 3 colors. That is what started this and you discussed it before you know trying to use "It is what I believe" as a smoking gun to end any and all discussion.
    How is realism not a subjective discussion? Do you think it's an objectively defined parameter? Expecially in the context of my argument?

    "What really irked me is that they melted the gold and silver and steel altogether, threw in the mithril chunk that they had, and then made three rings of different colors..."

    "I get they wanted to portray it this way because it's more 'symbolic' to Galadriel if she's looking at the molten dagger as a whole and watching the mithril be added to it. But if you know anything about metallurgy, this isn't the way ingots are produced. And I'm not interested in some bogus 'Elven magic' explanation like 'That mold they pour the molten metal into separates the gold and silver parts for you'"


    What exactly did I change here that made it not an opinion?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-19 at 08:56 PM.

  16. #7196
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    The items and the creation process are two different things, you dope. The rings are important in that they drive other parts of the story but we don’t need an extra 5minutes of pouring metal and polishing gems to convey that. See above and realize that you’re conflating two different things.
    I'm sure you've your own narrative at this point.

  17. #7197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    How is realism not a subjective discussion? Do you think it's an objectively defined parameter?
    So if person A thinks that the moon is made of cheese than that is realistic just because they thought it? Realism is based on defined parameters. Hence why it is real and not made up. You are making an argument for opinion disguised as realism.
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  18. #7198
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So if person A thinks that the moon is made of cheese than that is realistic just because they thought it? Realism is based on defined parameters. Hence why it is real and not made up. You are making an argument for opinion disguised as realism.
    No, you're just taking my argument out of context and implying that it is more than an opinion for the purpose of arguing it as though you have something to prove wrong.

    I've been clear to you from the beginning that believability and the context of my talks about realism is based on opinion, while backing it with comparisons to the show lacking any depiction of realistic metallurgy to define how the materials were made into different colors while still containing equal parts mithril. It's explained through magic, that is all.

    I said I don't find it believable. I've even quoted that for you, which you're ignoring to somehow push some benign argument for the sake of arguing. As I said, all you're doing is trolling me and telling me I can't have an opinion because anything I say is ultimately going to be 'hiding behind an opinion' when I've framed it as an opinion from the beginning. I'm not the one who claimed the movie made a mistake, remember this. You are the one who asserted this from the beginning, while I've only been defending my personal thoughts, denouncing your explanations all the while as headcanon.

    I don't buy your explanation that the ratios were different and the colors changed because they shaped the rings. This explanation doesn't make sense. Neither do I find "Mithril is a magical metal you don't know how it works' to be a valid argument, it's an excuse more than anything.

    I'll give you that the spinning forge might be the closest thing we have to showing a separation of materials. I could buy that explanation, and would say it's a detail that I have overlooked which could make sense of the metals being separated. It may be a magic-based method of separating metals, but at least they go out of their way to depicting it visually.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-19 at 09:19 PM.

  19. #7199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I don't buy your explanation that the ratios were different and the colors changed because they shaped the rings. This explanation doesn't make sense.
    I have never once said the color changed because they shaped the rings. I'm not sure why you keep trying to claim that delusion. The only one telling a person they can't have an opinion here is yourself. Of course you can have an opinion. It is also open to be discussed. Of course I think the movie made a goof because of the continuity error between the color of the ingots and the color of the rings. Why do you keep repeating that as if it is something I've denied saying? Lmao.

    Just as you've been defending your personal thoughts so have I. Strange how you have a justification for why you are "good" and I am "bad" when we are both doing the same thing, right?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  20. #7200
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I have never once said the color changed because they shaped the rings.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53942010

    There is a difference between metal being different colors depending on the ratio of the alloy and it changing colors after shaped into a ring.

    Really? You didn't say this?

    Did your evil twin take over your account and post this then?

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