Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

So would you say the books are important when there's a show written based on them, or is that totally irrelevant?

They are as a reference. The show isn't a faithful adaptation so ultimately the show and what they've decided is most important. If I have to read all the books to be able to reference the books then don't others need to watch the entire show to reference the show? Isn't the show the most important thing when discussing the show?

[rhorle]

Matter of opinion. In my opinion, I'd rather talk with someone who has read the book and didn't see the show than vice versa, because they would have a better idea of how fucked up the show is if I give them a few highlights.

And yet I haven't had an issue seeing how divergent from canon the show is. Strange, right? Why can't I get knowledge of the books with highlights? You know using quotes, wiki, letters by the author, etc. You are just looking to dismiss anyone who doesn't have the same opinion about the show as you and others. You took a long and winding road to just say you want to gate keep who you talk with for silly reasons. You are just looking to dismiss anyone who doesn't have the same opinion about the show as you and others. lmao.

[rhorle]

No - there's a reason storytelling is an important skill. It's about more than the facts. It's reading things in the way the author arranged them, recognizing the themes woven throughout the universe, and building up a connection to characters and the story the author wants to tell. None of that happens when you get the cliff notes.

All of those things are important for understanding a show as well. Again showing the double standard. If they can get those things from a summary about the show then a person can also get those things from a summary of Tolkiens. What if a person read all the published books but did so 30+ years ago and can't recall everything clearly? Are they dismissed as well? Or do you just invent a new way of gate keeping when they don't dislike the same things you do?

It also ignores how a lot of Tolkien's canon isn't even in a woven universe. They are notes published by his son. Some contradictory and some changed by Christopher based on what he thought his father meant or would have done.

[Xath]

No - there's a reason storytelling is an important skill. It's about more than the facts. It's reading things in the way the author arranged them, recognizing the themes woven throughout the universe, and building up a connection to characters and the story the author wants to tell. None of that happens when you get the cliff notes.

You don't have to read like 10 books by the way - just the Silmarillion pretty much covers it.

I'm not saying you can't watch the series and develop your own opinions by the way - just it doesn't make sense for you to be getting in arguments with book readers because your perspective will be fundamentally different, particularly for series like this one where the book and the show diverge so ridiculously wildly. It's the same as how I don't insert myself into the deep lore discussions on this website - I play wow, but I'm not familiar enough with the lore to insert myself into those debates.

They weren't able to finish lotr because it was too hard no way in hell they finish Sil.

[rhorle]

They weren't able to finish lotr because it was too hard no way in hell they finish Sil.

Hard to get through and boring is what I stated. I just couldn't get into it in high school and never returned to it. It was just some of book 2 of LotR I skipped. Just as you couldn't watch part (or all) of the show of the show. You really are the pot calling the kettle black here.

[Corvus]

Seeing a lot of reports that season 2 won't make an appearance to 2024. Bit of a wait.

[Skulltaker]

Right. And what is the poem referencing doing the ruling? The One Ring. What is the poem referencing that is doing the binding? The One Ring. They are not bound to Sauron but to the Ring.

Durin III is alive when the rings are forged. Durin IV is alive for the War of the Last Alliance. The show is starting with the rings being forged and ending (season 5) with the War of the Last Alliance. What doesn't make sense about having both present on the show? It not following canon is not the same as not making sense. They compressed the time line and changed things to make it work. If they didn't have Durin IV it would be something you, or others, complain about it. If they didn't have Durin III it would be something you, or others, complain about. Because it removed a special lore figure from the show. Yet if they have both it is still complained about.

The compressed timeline is not to build tension. It seems it needs to be talked about more since you don't understand why it exists. They compressed it so they could keep the same actors through out the whole series. If they didn't compress it then only Elven actors would be kept and human, dwarf, hobbit, etc would all have to be replaced. Also you seemed to have watched a different show because Sauron didn't touch the three rings. They were created on the show after Galadriel confronted him.

No, the poem is referencing Sauron doing the ruling. One Ring, for Dark Lord, on his Dark Throne. One Ring, for the Dark Lord, to rule them all. That's why the context of the poem is important.

It makes no sense for them to share a screen because Dwarves named Durin are supposed to be a reincarnation of Durin the Deathless. I've said that numerous times, and you keep ignoring it.

If you stuck to the canon, there'd be no need for compression. It's all just for cheap emotions.

Sauron handled the Mithril. Technically, he touched them.

[Triceron]

No, the poem is referencing Sauron doing the ruling. One Ring, for Dark Lord, on his Dark Throne. One Ring, for the Dark Lord, to rule them all. That's why the context of the poem is important.

It makes no sense for them to share a screen because Dwarves named Durin are supposed to be a reincarnation of Durin the Deathless. I've said that numerous times, and you keep ignoring it.

If you stuck to the canon, there'd be no need for compression. It's all just for cheap emotions.

Sauron handled the Mithril. Technically, he touched them.

He's obviously not going to regard the context. To him, the poem can only be about the One Ring because if he admits it's about Sauron, he would also have to admit he fucked up referencing this poem at all, and that's not gonna happen. However he replies, he's gonna ignore that you even said the poem is about Sauron and just go at it from another angle like saying 'Tolkien never stated that in his notes' or some shit.

I mean we all know he's just arguing for attention here. His responses aren't actually in the interest of any decent discussion, he hasn't even stated whether he actually likes the show enough to defend it as much as he does. He just hates Tolkien fans and thinly veils his attacks against anyone who criticizes the show. He's an apologist, through and through. The guy hasn't even bothered reading the novels, and his argumentative style clearly shows he has no intention on actually empathizing with anyone who has. He has zero interest in reaching any good discussion with people who have read the books because he sees anyone who has as being a problem, one that he needs to defend the show against.

Dude is just a shitposter. Called it months ago, and here he is still pulling the same shit over and over again. All while pretending he's actually here looking for good discussion lol.

[Mace]

You'll find this a part of his argument style. He will focus on attacking what you say, while not presenting his own opinion on the matter. There is no conversation being had, he's only interested in prolonging the discussion enough to find something to attack you on. He doesn't actually care to discuss actual opinion, and if you push him hard enough on something he refused to acknowledge he'll straight up stop responding and pretend the entire discussion didn't happen.

And this is a guy who claimed to be here interested in having good discussions, yet all he ever does is... Whatever this is.

No amount of rhorle's arguing has convinced me. Ini fact, I like the show less now.

[rhorle]

No, the poem is referencing Sauron doing the ruling. One Ring, for Dark Lord, on his Dark Throne. One Ring, for the Dark Lord, to rule them all. That's why the context of the poem is important.

And yet the power was in the ring. Not with the Dark Lord. He became dependent on the Ring. So doesn't that mean the Ring is the true Lord as it is ruling the Lord itself? Just like people say a drug is the master of a person that is addicted to it.

"The Ring of Sauron is only one of the various mythical treatments of the placing of one's life, or power, in some external object, which is thus exposed to capture or destruction with disastrous results to oneself. If I were to 'philosophize' this myth, or at least the Ring of Sauron, I should say it was a mythical way of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps rather potentiality) if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalized and so as it were passes, to a greater or less degree, out of one's direct control. A man who wishes to exert 'power' must have subjects, who are not himself. But he then depends on them." -Letter 211

Right, Durin is a special name among the Dwarves. With the compressed timeline two are a live at the same time or they would have to leave a Durin out. Either way you, or others, would call it out as a fault right? If they left one out it would be a problem because a Durin doesn't exist like it did in Tolkien Canon. If they keep both it is a problem even though with the compressed time line both would have to exist.

The compression has nothing to do with sticking to the Tolkien Canon or not. Even if they didn't have the compression they still wouldn't have been faithful. It has everything to do with having the same non-elven characters present through out the 5 seasons. You say you don't need to be told this but then keep ignoring the reason for the compression to exist.

[Syegfryed]

Jesus Christ, the show is so garbage people are actually trying say Sauron isn't the Lord of the rings

[Skulltaker]

And yet the power was in the ring. Not with the Dark Lord. He became dependent on the Ring. So doesn't that mean the Ring is the true Lord as it is ruling the Lord itself? Just like people say a drug is the master of a person that is addicted to it.

"The Ring of Sauron is only one of the various mythical treatments of the placing of one's life, or power, in some external object, which is thus exposed to capture or destruction with disastrous results to oneself. If I were to 'philosophize' this myth, or at least the Ring of Sauron, I should say it was a mythical way of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps rather potentiality) if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalized and so as it were passes, to a greater or less degree, out of one's direct control. A man who wishes to exert 'power' must have subjects, who are not himself. But he then depends on them." -Letter 211

Right, Durin is a special name among the Dwarves. With the compressed timeline two are a live at the same time or they would have to leave a Durin out. Either way you, or others, would call it out as a fault right? If they left one out it would be a problem because a Durin doesn't exist like it did in Tolkien Canon. If they keep both it is a problem even though with the compressed time line both would have to exist.

The compression has nothing to do with sticking to the Tolkien Canon or not. Even if they didn't have the compression they still wouldn't have been faithful. It has everything to do with having the same non-elven characters present through out the 5 seasons. You say you don't need to be told this but then keep ignoring the reason for the compression to exist.

And yet no it wasn't. You're once more lying to try to make your bs point. Sauron kept control over the Nazgul even without the Ring. And literally no-one who has any education on the topic says that the drug is the master of a person that is addicted to it, because they understand the complex biochemical processes that lead to addiction.

The letter you quote actually proves this, btw. The Ring has potency. Without someone to act upon it, it's worthless.

And no, Durin is not just a special name. It's a name reserved for beings that Dwarves consider to be a reincarnation of the original. It makes as little sense to have two of them on screen as it would to have two Avatars in the Last Airbender franchise.

And the original reason for the compression, again, is laziness and incompetence, because the writers can't find a way to create tension or drama unless you have fast-paced action. They simply suck at creating a compelling narrative without blowing something up.

[Shadowferal]

So..Balrog wakes at 1450 of the Secong Age instead of waking in 1980 of the Third Age...hmf.

[rhorle]

And yet no it wasn't. You're once more lying to try to make your bs point.

I'm not lying. Tolkien has said that he succumbed to the ring. You can think differently then the author but don't claim it is a lie just because you don't like it. The quote also says it passes out of one's direct control. Which implies that even when Sauron used it it wasn't just him in control. It was the ring. The ealier quote from Galadriel states that the ring has power with or without Sauron.

"Special name" still applies to a name reserved for beings that dwarves consider to be a reincarnation of the original. You are just nitpicking in order to dismiss a statement that otherwise has nothing wrong with it.

[Skulltaker]

I'm not lying. Tolkien has said that he succumbed to the ring. You can think differently then the author but don't claim it is a lie just because you don't like it. The quote also says it passes out of one's direct control. Which implies that even when Sauron used it it wasn't just him in control. It was the ring. The ealier quote from Galadriel states that the ring has power with or without Sauron.

"Special name" still applies to a name reserved for beings that dwarves consider to be a reincarnation of the original. You are just nitpicking in order to dismiss a statement that otherwise has nothing wrong with it.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that the Ring is in control of his actions. It only means that Sauron himself wasn't able to resist the temptations of what the Ring offered. The way you present what Tolkien said is a lie, nothing more. And after all the blatant misrepresentations of facts you've made throughout this thread, I don't think you get to interpret what anything implies, or not.

And the Ring may still contain power, with or without Sauron, but that doesn't make it the Lord of the Rings, either. Only one character in Middle Earth has ever demonstrated the ability to control other Rings of Power and those who wield it, and that's Sauron, both with and without the Ring on his hand. There's exactly 0 indication that the Ring has the Power to control other Rings unless worn by Sauron.

And you may consider it nitpicking, but your very wrong opinion doesn't change the fact that it is nonsensical to have more than one Durin at the same time.

[Shadowferal]

Someone needs to make gif

"This is my brother Durin, and this is my other brother "Durin."

[Triceron]

The Ring of Sauron is only one of the various mythical treatments of the placing of one's life, or power, in some external object, which is thus exposed to capture or destruction with disastrous results to oneself. If I were to 'philosophize' this myth, or at least the Ring of Sauron, I should say it was a mythical way of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps rather potentiality) if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalized and so as it were passes, to a greater or less degree, out of one's direct control. A man who wishes to exert 'power' must have subjects, who are not himself. But he then depends on them." -Letter 211

Nothing about this is indicating or implying the title 'Lord of the Rings' is applicable to the Ring, lol. He even outright calls this the Ring of Sauron.

This is like trying to argue 'the Great Gatsby' could possibly refer to 'the great influence that alcohol has over people'.

[Recovery]

You are thoroughly confused. From my first post I said the problem was both are alive at the same time. Somehow you turned that into that I was complaining about "one of them not existing", which is the opposite - I am clearly complaining about both of them existing. You changed my argument to something nonsensical, then when I corrected you, you told me that I switched what I was saying.

It's really hard to have conversations with you when you keep getting totally lost on the basics.

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What's fascinating is that in the past two years Amazon has put out series covering two huge fantasy series in Wheel of Time and Rings of Power, and both suffer from the same fatal flaw - complete disregard for the source material which has turned off serious fans. In both cases the showrunners have kind of made the argument that they can't just appeal to hardcore fans, but like - I'm pretty sure you should want hardcore fans to at least like the series, right? They become your core, guaranteed audience that helps draw other people in.

I'm truly fascinated at how they could have messed up so badly here. It's frankly incredible that they could get it so wrong, and because we're talking about two separate shows, it seems like this is an issue specifically with Amazon.

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So my question for you is, why did they bother spending 250 million on the rights if all they needed to was create a generic fantasy series? This series shares very little with the source material other than the names. If you as their target audience don't care about the source material, and they weren't planning to use it anyway, just the names, why not just create their own character names and save 250 million?

You're hugely exaggerating by claiming that "only the names" from the source material have been used. Also, even if people don't generally know alot about "The Lord of the Rings", they know the name. The name alone will bring in viewers that will like the show for what it is, for the most part.

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I think you are 100% right in that the show is made for the "average man", the people who just wants to watch A show, aslong as it is pretty and something goes on, its pretty alright. The bar is not high, because it just fufills a purpose of having something to watch, the primary purpose of television.

That said, this is also a shame. It makes the viewer very un-ambitious about what they see, setting a low standard and makes the viewer somewhat uninterested in many levels of quality elements.

It makes me want to ask the question, why watch the show when one can watch anything else, like Marvel series, Wheel of time, Star Wars or a Transformers movie. What would make somebody like you ever return to this serie in a couple of years if at all?

The story has been more than fine. I've already watched all of the other stuff. When the other stuff as well as this has a new movie, or series, I will watch it as well. I'm a lover of fantasy. Good or bad when compared to the source material means nothing to me. For someone who is not a source nerd, and picking the material apart against the source, the show really isn't half bad. It's not great, but it's not bad. Very enjoyable to watch. I've been watching it on Sunday night around 8:00, right before house of the dragon airs... Well, up until the finale of both. lol

[Triceron]

The story has been more than fine. I've already watched all of the other stuff. When the other stuff as well as this has a new movie, or series, I will watch it as well. I'm a lover of fantasy. Good or bad when compared to the source material means nothing to me. For someone who is not a source nerd, and picking the material apart against the source, the show really isn't half bad. It's not great, but it's not bad. Very enjoyable to watch. I've been watching it on Sunday night around 8:00, right before house of the dragon airs... Well, up until the finale of both. lol

I think non-book readers is really the target audience of the show. People who may have watched the LOTR and Hobbit movies, and otherwise don't know anything about the Second Age.

To be honest, adaptations like this are best enjoyed without the frame of reference in mind. Like every time I think about how awful the M. Night Airbender movie was, I still remember that everyone I've talked to who enjoyed the movie were all people who never watched the original series. They didn't have a frame of reference to compare to, and they were able to enjoy the movie as a standalone thing.

[Kumorii]

I think non-book readers is really the target audience of the show. People who may have watched the LOTR and Hobbit movies, and otherwise don't know anything about the Second Age.

To be honest, adaptations like this are best enjoyed without the frame of reference in mind. Like every time I think about how awful the M. Night Airbender movie was, I still remember that everyone I've talked to who enjoyed the movie were all people who never watched the original series. They didn't have a frame of reference to compare to, and they were able to enjoy the movie as a standalone thing.

Not a book reader. The problems with the show isn't it not following canon imo. Even if I'd like people being respectful to the source material they adapt. Problems with RoP is more universal than that. Story, writing, pacing, acting etc etc... Even if the show followed canon it would still have these problems.