Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

We already had this conversation. It would if the composition of the individual metals is different. Just like you can make different tints of Gold with what metal is mixed in. If some ingots had a higher ration of Gold, Silver, or Mithril it could impact the final color. It also isn't 3 different colors which we already covered in a past conversation. It is weird you forgot when you even said it is acceptable because of "movie magic".

Are you talking about the rings and the ingots?

They are indeed 3 different colors. And they are made out of a single mithril + Valinor Gold and Silver and Steel alloy.

I said I'm willing to accept it as movie magic, and that's in the context that the show doesn't give a fuck about realism. Just like I can accept Legolas surfing down stairs while firing off arrows is movie magic in the context of not caring about realism for the sake of being cool. It doesn't make it free of criticism or absolve it of being nonsensical. Just like I can accept that children in a playground are going to scream even if you tell them not to, it doesn't make it okay that children are screaming. It's merely acceptable, not free of being problematic.

If your answer to this is 'Well it's just a mistake, like the Starbucks cup in GoT' then I'm literally explaining to you that no, this is a full sequence of many multiple shots that has multiple continuity errors within it, and that is not equatable to a single sequence that has a cup in the shot that they forgot to remove in post production.

The nature of the mistake is not the same. And it's acceptable in the context that this show and the audience it's made for doesn't really give a fuck about the details. These issues really only exist in the enthusiasts like the few on this board who care enough about the details to point out the inaccuracies.

The steel could have been important to the final product just as much as the purity of the gold and silver. We also don't know if the blade was 100% steel, right? One pool of metal can have a different ratio if not mixed fully. We also don't know what impact a magical metal will have. So you can't call it a mistake. Arondir's buzzcut isn't magical either. You really do have a grudge against the character huh? Manually clippers exist.

Then you're implying headcanon that somehow the single dagger they put into the forge and came out with a single pool of metal somehow yields different ratios of gold/silver/steel/Mithril within it to make 3 different colored ingots. That doesn't make sense even when you explain it like this. The entire explanation they gave for having this single alloy is because they needed to coax the metals together rather than forcing it and that they don't have time to experiment on many different alloys. And they literally show them not even taking the time to separate the metals of the dagger before smelting. So whatever explanation you're trying to give me is nothing more than your headcanon, because the show literally shows the single dagger being melted as one pool of metal, with the full chunk of mithril tossed in.

Like, in what world does your explanation make more sense than merely brushing this off as movie magic? At least by saying it's movie magic, I literally accept the inaccuracies being presented. If you're trying to realistically explain the inaccuracies as being plausible, then your explanation is unrealistic. Kinda like if I said a James Bond villain firing rifle shots into the water to try and kill someone is unrealistic because the bullets lose momentum in water, but I can accept it as 'movie magic'. And then you come in and try to explain that because the villain could be using a higher-powered rifle that makes it realistically plausible, I'd say no it still wouldn't be because that's not how physics work and the explanation is just as stupid in the context of how the movie portrays bullets in water. Any rifle capable of firing bullets that streak through the water as shown in movies would be powerful enough to take the arm off the person wielding the gun. You can't try and explain away movie magic with some plausible realistic explanation when it isn't realistic to begin with.

2 silver ingots and 1 gold ingot can be called the same as a starbucks cup or fingers still existing on a hand after being cut off. Because it is a simple error of color. If the ingots were clearly 2 gold and 1 silver then it wouldn't be an issue. It is like you are purposefully being obtuse here when you already agreed with me on what was the goof in an earlier post. Why ignore that just to keep whining about stuff now?

It's not a mistake that they have three different colored ingots crafted from one pool of metal. It is an unrealistic, inaccurate portrayal of mettalurgy and how alloys are created (in real life). It is an intentionally unrealistic portrayal for film, one that doesn't need explanation, but can still be pointed out as being unrealistic and inaccurate to real life.

The ratio explanation just doesn't work at all, because we're literally shown the dagger melting in full in one go. It's not like they melted it in parts and merely implied that they had three separate alloys with different ratios for each. You're attempting to explain something that doesn't need to be explained, and I'm pointing out why there's no reason for you to even go to these lengths. You have no reason to try to explain it as though it could ever make sense realistically. It can't. That you personally think it is because of different ratios comes from your own choice to imply headcanon to make sense of things that don't make sense. It doesn't actually work the way you think it does in real life, just like bullets in water don't travel further just because you might have an alternative explanation in mind that would make it work.

[Fortress of Arrogance]

See above and realize that you’re conflating two different things.

That does not answer my question: ARE the Rings important to the plot?

Well, are they? If yes, how and how's it's shown?

[Adamas102]

That does not answer my question: ARE the Rings important to the plot?

Well, are they? If yes, how and how's it's shown?

You already quoted my post where I explained that to you. I know English isn’t your first language but it was only three sentences. If you’re having trouble with that then I’m not sure any more explanation would help.

[rhorle]

Are you talking about the rings and the ingots?

No. They are only two different colors. There are two gold colored rings and 1 silver colored ring. There are silver colored ingots and 1 gold colored ingot. We don't know what the magical Mithril does when in an alloy. It is silly to argue realism with a magical metal. However we know in the real world that the ratio of metals in an alloy can impact the color. If you don't have the same ratio of copper and gold you will have two different tints of rose gold. Since they are skimming off the top it is possible that a different ratios exist in the molten pool.

Again, since you seem to be unable to understand, I am saying the color of the ingots to the color of the rings is the "goof". A color mismatch is equivalent to a starbucks cup or green screen fingers not being erased. I'm not sure how you think I'm equating that to the entire process of casting the ingots when I have never said that. You keep creating a strawman and it is silly.

[Fortress of Arrogance]

You already quoted my post where I explained that to you. I know English isn’t your first language but it was only three sentences. If you’re having trouble with that then I’m not sure any more explanation would help.

I believe there's a guy by the name of Adamas102, I think you've met him before, and here's what he has to say to you:

The importance wasn’t in the creation of the rings themselves, but rather all that came after.

[Triceron]

It is silly to argue realism with a magical metal.

Then why are you arguing?

By all means, you could have said that the two silver ingots and one gold ingot creating two gold rings and one silver ring isn't a mistake either, because you don't know the magical properties of mithril. But you didn't, you called it out as being a mistake. Somehow, that is a mistake, even though you admit you think that mithril has magical properties that no one can explain? Seems like you're just arguing me for the sake of it then, doesn't it?


If your entire argument here is 'You can't call it unrealistic because I have X Y Z explanations for how it could possibly work' then I'm pointing out none of your explanations are actually realistic at all. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing since your explanations all end up defaulting to 'Mithril is magical and can't be explained' once you run out of stupid excuses :/

[Adamas102]

I believe there's a guy by the name of Adamas102, I think you've met him before, and here's what he has to say to you:

Yeah, so you’re just like that other poster that didn’t note that the rings as a plot device and the creation process are two different things, except where he realized his mistake and stopped responding, you keep having trouble letting it sink in.

“I already explained above to someone that needed it spelled out that the crafting of the rings is connected all through the Elrond/Celebrimbor/Durin story that kicks off in the first episode. The rings are the culmination of a major project. It also draws in part of Galadriel’s arc with her giving up the dagger (symbolic of her revenge quest) as well as linking them to Sauron’s plans.”

The show actually makes the rings even more important overall by connecting them to other characters and events, but the final process of pouring metal and polishing stones is not of great importance and didn’t need more time spent on it to convey the importance of the rings themselves. Does that clear it up for you?

[rhorle]

By all means, I could say that your indication that the two silver ingots and one gold ingot creating two gold rings and one silver ring isn't a mistake either, because you don't know the magical properties of mithril.

There is a difference between metal being different colors depending on the ratio of the alloy and it changing colors after shaped into a ring. All you are doing is creating a strawman because you can't counter the other. We know, in real life, that the ratio of material in an alloy determines color and the shade of color. The fiction aspect comes into play with Mithril and how it impacts the alloy.

The show doesn't bank on people not caring about the details and doesn't expect the audience to merely believe in movie magic. Alloy being a different color based on metals used is a realistic portrayal. It is also sensible. Just as you didn't know about manual cutters existing you don't know as much about metallurgy as you think. Even your explanation of "banks on" doesn't fit your argument.

Materials are melted to make an alloy. The show does that. Material is cast into an ingot or other shape. The show does that. They don't need to show measuring because they don't know what to measure or did it off screen. Hence why Celebrimbor asked for pure gold/silver to begin with. A single pool can yield different colors if the ratio of materials isn't uniform. The show doesn't show it being uniform as that is one of your complaints. You really are just creating reasons out of thin air to justify your "The show doesn't care about details" conclusion.

[Kumorii]

If the three materials are unevenly mixed causing them having pure colored results... then the mithril isn't evenly mixed, hell... one or two rings might have 0 of it.
Lets not even mention how shitty of a smith Celebrimbor must be to not mix it considering the importance.

As @Triceron says, it's a production error... It makes much more sense going with the characters in the series actually did it properly considering the importance and the production went with aesthetics rather than logic or just didn't think of how this would play out for real. Which is absolutely fine. It's fun to point out and make fun of though.
And I'm sure a lot of production people will laugh at it if it's a genuine mistake. Or some people are tearing their hair out because they warned about it constantly and they ignored it and went with "rule of cool" instead.

Remember working on a movie as a new person in the industry and when putting together a trailer they made and exporting it I pointed out a camera man sitting backwards on a carusel swing going right past the camera. Literally NO ONE had noticed it and I got told the directors and produces had a good laugh because it was such a silly thing to miss since he covered like 20% of the screen and went straight across it.
This shit happens. No point in trying to excuse it by making the series characters straight up idiotic.... Or more idiotic that is.

[InfiniteCharger]

Previous sentence: "Well of course, if they want a great show on their hands, they need a compelling story that fits well into the world Tolkien created. There is zero basis for claiming that this cannot be done. Whether it actually will is another question."

You're claiming it cannot be done. So no, I am not agreeing with you. I am agreeing with a part of your argument, but certainly not with the whole.

Come on dude.

But I never said it absolutely cannot be done. I said that Amazon never had a compelling story to begin with which is what made this an albatross and I made that clear in the previous paragraph stating it would be judged on its own merits. Which is where your disagreement makes no sense because you agreed with what I actually wrote and then made up something I never said to disagree with.

[Triceron]

There is a difference between metal being different colors depending on the ratio of the alloy and it changing colors after shaped into a ring. All you are doing is creating a strawman because you can't counter the other. We know, in real life, that the ratio of material in an alloy determines color and the shade of color. The fiction aspect comes into play with Mithril and how it impacts the alloy.

Then why did you call it a mistake that the ingots do not correspond to the color of the rings?

You can't explain it either way. It just is, because of unexplained 'magical' reasons, whether we're talking about fictional Middle Earth magical properties of Mithril, or 'don't think about how the science works' movie magic. There's no reason you should be arguing at all here, really.

You can't say the show depicted things realistically all while admitting that it employs unrealistic explanations. It's a fucking non argument for the sake of arguing.

Hence why Celebrimbor asked for pure gold/silver to begin with. A single pool can yield different colors if the ratio of materials isn't uniform.

THen you're also implying that some of the rings contain less mithril than the others, which goes against Galadriel's own statement about having 3 Rings to bring about balance. Not very balanced if one of the rings you're implying the rings have an unequal distribution of mithril within them.

You can stop coming up with explanations because I'm literally not looking for any. We BOTH agree that it's unrealistic, so there's no reason to try and justify it as being realistic after we're both in agreement that it's simply not. All you're doing is making yourself look stupid trying to explain as being realistic by describing scenarios which are completely irrational and nonsensical to the entire point of the show. Like, it's movie magic because they want 3 Rings that match the Peter Jackson ring designs, and they didn't care enough to depict their forging in a way that actually makes sense realistically. That's all fine.

You don't need to come up with excuses for something that isn't your fault, bro. Telling me that I don't know how the alloys would work because of ratios and whatnot is just stupid, because I can say you don't know how that works either, and you end up defaulting to saying 'Mithril is magic!' to cover what you can't explain. I won't stop you from speaking, since I know how much you hate to 'be silenced', I'm just saying you're going nowhere with this argument and you can drop any time.

[rhorle]

Then why did you call it a mistake that the ingots do not correspond to the color of the rings?

How many times do I actually have to tell you that? I told you the other day. I told you today. I'll tell you again.

The color changing after the material was cast is the goof. The color of the ingots are 1 gold and 2 silver. The color of the rings are 2 gold 1 silver. Color can change when mixing the alloy but not afterwards. I even told you that it is possible they plated one ring since Vilya has some silver material as an accent.

It is a fantasy show using a special forge created by the Dwarves to create an alloy of a metal created from a magical ore. Of course realism won't fully apply. However mixing of alloys isn't a unrealistic depiction. I'm discussing for the same reason you are. Because I want to. Why do you have to keep trying to gate keep discussion by requiring a reason? All you'll do is pick it apart for whatever reason suits your current mood.

[Triceron]

How many times do I actually have to tell you that? I told you the other day. I told you today. I'll tell you again.

The color changing after the material was cast is the goof. The color of the ingots are 1 gold and 2 silver. The color of the rings are 2 gold 1 silver. Color can change when mixing the alloy but not afterwards

You can tell me that Elven Forges have the ability to unbake a cake back into its original ingredients as much as you'd like, it doesn't make you sound any less ridiculous. You're not making sense out of a fantasy scenario by applying false logic to it. I mean I could just as much say a robot from the future came back in time off screen and used his technology to separate the metals for them just the same. It doesn't make it any more sensible as an explanation. It's pointless to even try to explain it. It's a fictional scenario with inconsistencies, that's just what it will be.

You can stop any time dude. I'm not the one who claimed this to be a mistake at all. I said from the beginning, this is merely how the show depicts it, it is movie magic, and it is unrealistic. Whether it is a mistake or not is not something I will call it out for being, it's merely an inconsistency.

Just like Smaug in the first Hobbit movie was hinted at having front claws (4 legs), while his full reveal and design in the 2nd movie is shown as a Wyvern design. I can accept this as an inconsistency and as a design change - movie magic. I don't need someone telling me how Smaug magically lost his forearms or had an 'evolutionary shift' to explain the changes. I don't need someone telling me how my perception of this change being inconsistent is wrong because I don't know the magical biology of Dragons. Like, these are non-arguments for the sake of perpetuating some bad faith bullshit.

You can stop shitposting any time.

[Ghost of Cow]

I mean, you can separate metals even after alloying them - and I'm sure with some "Elven craftsmanship" they can go above and beyond reality - but I'm not sure why they wouldn't just do separate mixtures to begin with in this case.

[rhorle]

Color can not change when mixing the alloy in the way that the show depicted it. Before the mithril was added, the Dagger was already shown melted into one single pool of metal. All you would be implying is the color of the alloys are dependent on an unequal amount of Mithril being in each ingot

You do realize that different ratios create different shades? So what I'm implying is realistic. Yet here you are still trying to find ways to argue against that, strange right? The mixture is also stirred by the Dwarven forge. It is possible that things didn't get evenly distributed or the mithril bonded in different ways.

I never said shaping of the rings changes colors. That is what I've been calling the goof. How many times have I told you that yet you still ignore it to create an argument in your head. I haven't ignored any claim I've made. Lmao. Of course the color change could be magical. The rings themselves can turn invisible so why not color as well?

[Triceron]

I mean, you can separate metals even after alloying them - and I'm sure with some "Elven craftsmanship" they can go above and beyond reality - but I'm not sure why they wouldn't just do separate mixtures to begin with in this case.

That's the point. They didn't do that at all. They threw the chunk of mithril into a single pool of metal that is implied to be the content of the daggers as a whole, so trying to explain it as the Elves having done so wouldn't work with the way the show depicted it all.

I mean it'd actually make sense if they omitted the scene of the dagger being melted and taken directly to the forge, and just show us the mithril being added to some 'metal'. That would still allow room to imagine that gold and silver could have been added off screen.

It's just an odd sequence altogether, and I'm not sure what they were thinking about when planning out the entire scene knowing that they're going to match the Peter Jackson ring designs at the end of it.

[rhorle]

That's the point. They didn't do that at all.

How do you know the Dwarven forge didn't do that somehow? Or that the siphon they used didn't do that? Elves can make metal blades glow when orcs are nearby so maybe that siphon is enchanted?

[Triceron]

You do realism that you can different ratios create different shades? So what I'm implying is realistic. Yet here you are still trying to find ways to argue against that, strange right? The mixture is also stirred by the Dwarven forge. It is possible that things didn't get evenly distributed.

Do you see any shade of gold at all in the silver colored ring? I don't. Because it doesn't have any hint of gold color in it at all. It's meant to be a silver colored ring. That is literally how the show depicts Nenya. How or why it is Silver colored is completely unexplained. It is merely a Silver colored ring.

The show explains all three rings are made from the same material while depicting Nenya as being very definitively silver colored through movie magic. There is no explanation for why they are different colors other than that they are. That's it.

Whatever reasoning you're trying to apply here doesn't work because you can't even prove that they have different ratios of metal within them. Like, you literally can't. You're just telling me 'My explanation that I can't prove makes you wrong for arguing that it doesn't make sense'.

Bad mutherfucking faith argument, my dear friend. Bad mutherfucking faith.


You don't actually know that these rings contain a different ratio of metal within them. You're just assuming that. There are no facts here that disprove anything buddy, just your will to argue something for the sake of telling other people they're wrong because you don't happen to like what's being said.

[rhorle]

Do you see any shade of gold at all in the silver ring? I don't. Because it doesn't have any gold in it at all. It's meant to be a silver ring.

Please indicate where I said the silver colored ring was not meant to be silver-colored? You are creating your own argument in your head and then posting here as if it is something I've said. Lmao.

The spinning forge does show 3 rings of different shades. It is possible that is how the different colors were siphoned off. It still doesn't explain the 2 silver 1 gold ingots and 2 gold 1 silver rings though. Of course there are no facts to indicate anything I am saying. Just as there are no facts to indicate what you are saying. The only one acting in bad faith here is yourself who is now turning to personal insults just because your argument fails you. Not to mention how your are telling me I am wrong, bad faith, shit poster, and etc just because you don't like what I'm saying. Lmao.

[Triceron]

How do you know the Dwarven forge didn't do that somehow? Or that the siphon they used didn't do that? Elves can make metal blades glow when orcs are nearby so maybe that siphon is enchanted?

Because the show didn't depict the Dwarven forge doing it.

If the show doesn't depict it, there is no reason to assume something that lacked explaining is at work here. That is the the responsibility of the show to define clearly, or leave ambiguous with no explanation. It's not up to the viewer to fill in the blanks with headcanon to make sense of something that doesn't makes sense. All we can do as a viewer is point out when something doesn't make sense, and merely speculate at our own behest. But speculation does not somehow excuse the show for lacking an explanation, nor does speculation cover its inconsistencies and holes.

Like, I could easily speculate they made 3 Rings out of the same gold-colored material and merely plated Nenya with a coat of silver to explain it away. Easy explanation that would make complete sense. But that doesn't mean it'd be what the show actually depicts, or what would be universally regarded as being true to how the show depicts what happened. The show depicts all three Rings being forged from the same material, and doesn't explain how they came about being different colors. That's it.

I wouldn't apply any more outside explanation to it any more than what is depicted in the show otherwise we aren't talking about the show any more, we're talking about headcanon. And that's exactly what you're doing with the Ratio explanation, and why I'm denouncing it completely. I've said clearly that if that's what you want to believe then that's fine as your opinion, but you can't use that as some kind of argument to say you provided a realistic explanation that makes the show free from criticism over its lack of consistency and realism.

I mean, you're effectively just trolling be even asserting that I could be wrong for merely pointing out that the show has an inconsistency that I do not find believable. Who are you to tell me that I have to believe your own bullshit headcanon reasoning?

- - - Updated - - -

The spinning forge does show 3 rings of different shades. It is possible that is how the different colors were siphoned off.

This happened AFTER the mithril was added, so all you're suggesting is the rings are colored differently because they contain different ratios of Mithril. Again, I don't buy that explanation nor do I even consider it plausible based on what the show depicts. It literally does not explain how the forge comes about creating different colored ingots, it just does.