Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

But how is that more commercialization then the Jackson films?

The fact that Peter Jackson didn't just make the LOTR for the sake of promoting the film companies' platform?

Rings of Power exists because we know Jeff Bezos literally made a statement about wanting to create his own "Game of Thrones". I think the motivation to create this series as a response to another existing commercially successful fantasy franchise makes this quite obvious. You can carry on the argument if you wish, but don't expect any more responses from me here, because I already know you're gonna be quite pedantic about it and just argue semantics.

It'll probably end up with you circling back to saying 'Well either it's commercialized or it's faithful to the spirit of Tolkien's work. Pick one' and then you'll ignore any response after that just like you did above with dropping your One Ring bullshit, lol. "At least, not in a way that even PJ's trilogy was considered acceptable by most book readers." had nothing to do with commercialization in the first place, so I'll point out that you've taken my arguments out of context to argue something else entirely, an argument which I'm not even making in the first place considering it was you who brought Christopher Tolkien into this.

If you want to criticize me for also shitposting, then I'll just say here I'll free you of it and end this discussion here and now. I'm not interested in what you think is and isn't a commercial product, and I'm not interested in carrying on your shitposting about this. It doesn't actually have anything to do with anything I've said, which is the completely baffling part about this. If you choose to be ignorant, then that's fine with me

[rhorle]

The fact that Peter Jackson didn't just make the LOTR for the sake of promoting the film companies' platform?

And yet that is the same reasoning New Line Cinema used for taking on the project. To give themselves a higher status in the industry. So even with your weird requirements it still fails.

[Triceron]

And yet that is the same reasoning New Line Cinema used for taking on the project. To give themselves a higher status in the industry. So even with your weird requirements it still fails.

Yes but Christopher Tolkien wasn't referring to the fact that New Line Cinema was looking to give themselves a higher status in the industry, so that's where your analogy fails as well.

Like, I don't know why you're now twisting it to say it's 'my weird requirements'. You aren't talking about how Christopher Tolkien regarded the commercialization of the PJ movies if you're talking about merchandizing or videogame spinoffs, so I'm not sure what the fuck you're actually arguing here.

It just sounds like you have a problem with what Christopher Tolkien said, then try to make it sound like it's my fault he said the things he did, lol. Fucking shitposting again. Let's be clear that this is what it is.

It isn't civil discussion if all you're willing to undermine your own argument just to attack anyone's responses. I might as well ask you why you're even hanging around in this thread since you're obviously not interested in discussing the show at all here.

[rhorle]

Yes but Christopher Tolkien wasn't referring to the fact that New Line Cinema was looking to give themselves a higher status in the industry, so that's where your analogy fails as well.

So that indicates that what he said wouldn't apply to Amazon trying to give themselves a higher status as well. You are really saying your criticism in regards to Amazon has failed. Lmao. I haven't twisted anything. I haven't taken anything out of context. You said that Amazon was more egregious than the Jackson films because they want to make money and give themselves a higher status.

[Triceron]

Lmao. I haven't twisted anything

"Look at me shitposting! I ask people what Christopher Tolkien might find agreeable, and when they answer I tell them how wrong they are for daring to speak out for him."

I wholeheartedly agree.

[rhorle]

I ask people what Christopher Tolkien might find agreeable, and when they answer I tell them how wrong they are for daring to speak out for him."

I never told you that you were wrong for daring to speak out for him but because you stated something incredibly exaggerated. If you really hate having a discussion with me as much as you claim to then don't respond to my posts whether or not I respond to you. You always start out civil then quickly devolve to insults and rage.

Considering Rings of Power is more egregiously commercialized than Jackson's work, why would I think he would ever find it more agreeable?

[Xath]

Hard to get through and boring is what I stated. I just couldn't get into it in high school and never returned to it. It was just some of book 2 of LotR I skipped. Just as you couldn't watch part (or all) of the show of the show. You really are the pot calling the kettle black here.

Not equivalent show is trash meanwhile Tolkien is considered basically the father of high fantasy. But hey the show is designed to appeal to lcd so I'm sure people who can't get through LoTR most definitely enjoy it

[Triceron]

I never told you that you were wrong for daring to speak out for him but because you stated something incredibly exaggerated. If you really hate having a discussion with me as much as you claim to then don't respond to my posts whether or not I respond to you. You always start out civil then quickly devolve to insults and rage.

It's as simple as this - nothing you've said disagrees with anything I've said. You've brought forth zero opinions of your own on this matter. You ask for opinions, and then you attack the opinions for being made. That's all you're doing, and it's insulting. It's absolutely trolling.

If you want a discussion, then you need to present your own opinion and talk about what you agree or disagree on. If you don't have an opinion on the matter, then there is nothing to discuss. In most cases, we're not actually arguing about anything, because most of the time you don't actually disagree with what's being said, only triggered by how it's being said. And there's actually nothing that you bring to the table to discuss, you're just being picky about how people are expressing their arguments. All you're doing is interrogating. That isn't a conversation.


If you actually want to have a conversation, present your opinion and what points that I've made that you personally agree or disagree with. Otherwise, I'm not interested in merely being attacked by your shitposting. And the more you want to carry on shitposting, the more I'm happy to call you out on doing exactly that.


Like, you came at this saying Christopher Tolkien also expressed having problems with Peter Jackson's movies. Well, do you think he would give Rings of Power a free pass? Do you think he would think more fondly about Rings of Power? I don't think so. Here are my reasons. What do you think? Let's discuss.

Instead, you offer zero opinion, zero disagreements, and only care to question and attack every point the other person makes. We've gone this far and I still don't know what you actually want to discuss, because you've not offered a single opinion on the matter.

[rhorle]

Like, you came at this saying Christopher Tolkien also expressed having problems with Peter Jackson's movies. Well, do you think he would give Rings of Power a free pass? Do you think he would think more fondly about Rings of Power?

He would have been involved in the sale of the rights even his resignation was announced a day or two after the rights sale. Officially it took place August 31st of that year. Wouldn't be involved in early talks? I've seen rumors that the estate had to pay $80 million in its lawsuit with Warner Brothers. So maybe he was forced out or the rights approval was part of an internal "apology" or something.

Amazon has also hinted at being "obliged" to not use Peter Jackson after initially approaching him. Amazon executive change? Warner Brothers? Or simply wanting to be entirely their own production? Unnamed sources from an article say the Tolkien estate insisted he can't have involvement which sounds like something Christopher might insist upon. Or that they heavily preferred the Amazon pitch over the "perceived problems" with the Jackson work.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv...es-1235193692/

However you interpret that it seems clear that the Tolkien estate, if not Christopher himself, was fine with Amazon's intent. Amazon makes like $2 to $3 billion a week so even what they spend on the show is a drop in the bucket. The fame and studio status is more important. It doesn't seem to fit with any nebulous definition of commercialization.

Just to nip something in the bud. If you don't want to discuss then don't respond. Simple as that. No need for all your rage filled attacks you either edit in or out.

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To add on to my previous post an article indicates that Amazon was approached by the Tolkien estate. Christopher was in charge with the deal. They had to originate their own material instead of using stuff from the Silmarillion and the Tolkien Estate could "cut" things out if it approached to much to work Amazon didn't have the rights to. This fits with some stories I've read of game design and only EA ever gaining the rights over the Silmarillion (though they let it lapse). The Tolkien estate has never given access to that content though that could change if they don't hold the same reservations as Christopher.

The author claims to not be paid or required to report on anything. That they were invited to these events as a member of "Tolkien press". Could it have been lies by Amazon or others? Sure. Could it be the truth? Sure.

https://www.theonering.net/torwp/202...in-the-fandom/

[Triceron]

However you interpret that it seems clear that the Tolkien estate, if not Christopher himself, was fine with Amazon's intent.

Except we're not talking about intent. You made it clear you were talking about the final product, since you brought an issue with Christopher Tolkien having issue with the action and lack of adhering to the spirit of Tolkien in PJ's films, not criticisms on PJ's intent on creating a LOTR trilogy. At the point of the Amazon deal, there wouldn't have been anything worth discussing creatively. No scripts, no decisions of what the story would be about. It would literally be rights deals.


If it's a matter of speculative discussion, I don't think Christopher would have been happy with Amazon's final product. Rings of Power still ended up being a complete commercially-driven, soulless product that distances itself quite a ways from Tolkien's work. It leans more heavily on its creative liberties than the PJ movies ever had. It is less faithful to the books, and it rewrites its own canon.

So if we're considering what Christopher Tolkien might think about Rings of Power, I don't think he would think it more favourably than PJ's LOTR or Hobbit trilogy at all. I think he would have just as much disdain over the fact it completely ignores most of the book's canon, which we all agree Rings of Power did. Considering he did not look favourably on the PJ movies as merely being an adaptation with creative liberties, I doubt he would regard Rings of Power in the same light.



And just googling it up, here's a compressed list of things Christopher Tolkien requested regarding the 2nd Age. Now, considering Amazon already bypassed some of this with time compression, how would Christopher Tolkien actually regard the Rings of Power timeline and adaptation? How would he regard the inclusion of Halbrand and omission of Annatar? How would he view the potential addition of Gandalf in the 2nd Age? Or the fact that two Durins exist in one time period?

These all creatively happened after his death, or behind closed doors while he was still alive and in retirement.
On these issues, I don't think he would be very happy.

What do you think?

[Fencers]

Just finished this up. It was okay. Too much plot.

[rhorle]

If it's a matter of speculative discussion, I don't think Christopher would have been happy with Amazon's final product.

So you ask for facts then say facts don't matter because it is all about speculation. It ultimately doesn't matter what you think Christopher would have thought. You are not him. The facts indicate he approved of the deal and restrictions of the deal. This is just like your grudge against Arondir that you've settled on Amazon/RoP being bad so no matter what everything has to agree with that regardless of the facts. You have some weird notion that Amazon has commercialized Rings of Power more so Christopher would dislike it. Yet provide no facts or anything else to back that speculation up other then "I say so".

https://youtu.be/kmc3sY0GQ0g?t=93 This is the podcast/streamer that originally stated that. They didn't provide a source at all so there is no telling how accurate it is.

We know those requests are not part of any actual deal or rule because lines are repurposed. Those rules don't even make sense given what we know about the rights and not being able to use events from The Silmarillion. So characters deaths in the second age couldn't be used as the article I provided indicated the estate would have things cut when it got close to things from The Silmarillion. Which also explains why they couldn't use Annatar. So I'm pretty sure Mr. Tolkien would be perfectly fine with out that character being used. Lol.

From the article in my last post you clearly didn't check out:"One thing that limited them was the rights. They could not touch The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales. The rights are only for The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. As such, the inclination is naturally to turn to the appendices of Return of the King, but even that is a gray area. If a plotline smelled too much like it was getting into Silmarillion territory, the Estate didn’t permit it in a script. The production was then pushed into the difficult situation of having to originate their own material."


It all comes down to Christopher Tolkien approving people to adapt the work. Even with out being an officer of the Estate he likely still had influence and gave strict terms about what could and could not be used. Even the rules you provided indicate that Mr.Tolkien was involved with guiding the direction of the show. Yet now you want to claim he hated it? With what evidence? Because you say so? Because the Jackson work can't be looked as worse than rings of power by anyone?

[melodramocracy]

I enjoyed, this, arguably more than I've enjoyed House of the Dragon, though it absolutely has it's flaws.

1. The characters are a bit thin in terms of writing. I get that this needs to appeal to a very wide audience, but there's just not a whole lot of depth to most of the characters, with the odd exception (Adar is well cast and very well acted, for example).

2. This is probably my biggest complaint. The action sequences make me think that the writers spend more time watching video game cut scenes than anything else. From Galadriel double tap dodging incoming arrows / spears while on horseback to Arondir topping an entire tower that was apparently held together with a single length of chain, most of what we've seen has been absurdity.

Beyond that though, it's all a solid first season. The show looks amazing, and there were some events that were a good surprise for me. It just needs a bit more meat on the bones. Looking forward to next season.

[Celement]

They made a solid 3/10 fantasy series that was brought up to 4/10.

It will most likely be remembered most for its meme of a fat persons with the line " there is a tempest in me" played before they shit themselves.

Odds are they will sideline the cast and try a almost hard restart in the two year hiatus for season two.

[Triceron]

So if Rings of power captures the spirit of the works better you don't think he would be find it more agreeable then the Jackson work?

It ultimately doesn't matter what you think Christopher would have thought. You are not him.

Don't ask what I think if you're not actually interested in what I think. Simple as that. It's insulting and dishonest. This is literally shitposting. I'll put this here so everyone can see here you're just trolling.

I'm only even humoring this because you literally asked a question about what I think. Since you don't seem to really care to talk opinions, there's nothing left to discuss here.
.
You be you.

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Odds are they will sideline the cast and try a almost hard restart in the two year hiatus for season two.

All things considered, I could see them bring far enough up their asses to consider this first season a success and do more of the same.

Seems to be what's happening with Wheel of Time.

[Raisei]

I laughed so hard when I heard that podcast interview they recorded recently.

They do not know how their own plot works. They want the watcher to decide for them what means what.... simply amazing...

The Feminems are the 3 witches from Macbeth. That's it. They have no connection to Tolkiens universe.

But best of all: They did not want to use Annatar because they couldn't understand how the different races would fall for it and they didn't want to make it obvious for the book readers.

1) Halbrand was so easily revealed that it is a joke. If you are retconning lore then at least do it well. If your aim is to hide a secret then put work into actually hiding it...

2) The sheer arrogance that these Hollywood apes think they could improve Tolkiens story ... it is glaringly obvious that they have zero respect for the books or the man.

3) Apparently season 2 is already written. So I got no clue whatsoever what they need 2,5 years for. Unless it is for rewriting the entire thing.

If I had created a show that was so universally disliked then I probably would just shut my mouth and work on imporvements. But nope. Not these guys. All they can do is brag and attack the fans, exactly like the She-Hulk troop. Must be that Hollywood lifestyle. Self-Congratulating and pushing all blame away.

If amazon doesn't kick these idiots out then season 2 is gonna be the exact same mess.

[rhorle]

Don't ask what I think if you're not actually interested in what I think. Simple as that. It's insulting and dishonest.

You know what is insulting a dishonest? Your constant need to insult and troll here. Every time. You'll start off with a civil discussion then get triggered by something where you just start flipping out. It doesn't matter what you think Christopher Tolkien would want because you are not him. It matters what he did and the actions he took. He approved the adaptation to be made. What is the honest thing here? What some random person thinks of someone? Or what that someone did?

You've provided nothing to support your claim other than you said so. I've done provided plenty of different things to indicate that Christopher Tolkien was fine with Amazon and didn't think they were worse than the Jackson films. The estate even has a creative say in the show which is better than what they had with the Jackson films. Some of the parts where the show doesn't follow canon is at the urging of the estate.

So why would he think bad? Because Amazon wants to make money which is somehow different then any of the other adaptations making money? Could he be unhappy with some specific story elements? Sure. Would he think it went against the spirit of Tolkien? Maybe Maybe not. It is clear that you are using more projection of your own views though rather then trying to look at an objective view of what another would think.

[Celement]

Don't ask what I think if you're not actually interested in what I think. Simple as that. It's insulting and dishonest. This is literally shitposting. I'll put this here so everyone can see here you're just trolling.

I'm only even humoring this because you literally asked a question about what I think. Since you don't seem to really care to talk opinions, there's nothing left to discuss here.
.
You be you.

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All things considered, I could see them bring far enough up their asses to consider this first season a success and do more of the same.

Seems to be what's happening with Wheel of Time.

It could be but I doubt it... I also don't think they consider wheel of tine a success.

While Amazon will be fine I don't think their video branch will be. The money has already been spent but I don't think they expected to eat so much loss from either project.

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You know what is insulting a dishonest? Your constant need to insult and troll here. Every time. You'll start off with a civil discussion then get triggered by something where you just start flipping out. It doesn't matter what you think Christopher Tolkien would want because you are not him. It matters what he did and the actions he took. He approved the adaptation to be made. What is the honest thing here? What some random person thinks of someone? Or what that someone did?

You've provided nothing to support your claim other than you said so. I've done provided plenty of different things to indicate that Christopher Tolkien was fine with Amazon and didn't think they were worse than the Jackson films. The estate even has a creative say in the show which is better than what they had with the Jackson films. Some of the parts where the show doesn't follow canon is at the urging of the estate.

So why would he think bad? Because Amazon wants to make money which is somehow different then any of the other adaptations making money? Could he be unhappy with some specific story elements? Sure. Would he think it went against the spirit of Tolkien? Maybe Maybe not. It is clear that you are using more projection of your own views though rather then trying to look at an objective view of what another would think.

What are you going on about?

They attached a wire to Tolkien's grave. Its spun so fast and so hard it solved the world energy crisis.

[rhorle]

They attached a wire to Tolkien's grave. Its spun so fast and so hard it solved the world energy crisis.

Blame the estate. They specifically told Amazon to cut things out of the script leaving them to come up with their own creation of things. They couldn't use the work in the Silmarillion. J.R.R might have disliked it, or he might not have. He wasn't opposed to adaptation outright. Christopher might have have liked Rings of Power or he might not have. He however did however make sure the Tolkien Estate was involved and able to have some creative control. The next best thing outside of the Tolkien Estate producing work themselves.

[Flurryfang]

The story has been more than fine. I've already watched all of the other stuff. When the other stuff as well as this has a new movie, or series, I will watch it as well. I'm a lover of fantasy. Good or bad when compared to the source material means nothing to me. For someone who is not a source nerd, and picking the material apart against the source, the show really isn't half bad. It's not great, but it's not bad. Very enjoyable to watch. I've been watching it on Sunday night around 8:00, right before house of the dragon airs... Well, up until the finale of both. lol

Maybe the story has been more than fine, but then the execution have gone poorly. And that is somewhat beside the point. It matters little what source material it has, it matters little how close it is to the source or the idea of Tolkien, its all about how good the show it as it stand on its own and how good it was supposed to be, when looking at the amount of energy and effort put into the product.

You might like it, thats great, but then question comes to why? I know many who like the show, but when i start asking questions why, its often just because its a high production fantasy show, not that the story or show is that particular good. It might aswell have been a harry potter tv-show for all they care, cause their standard is not that high. Whats important is that it is pretty, that it is something to talk about with their social circle and that it is something new to see.

Now, there is nothing bad in that opinion, but it won't create better TV. It allows the producers of the show to do the most barebone and people will still watch. I say that it is alright to have a high standard, especially when it comes to something made by a company like Amazon, something that might have a lasting impact and pressence than just when it is present.

Its also a question about potential. When there is potential, i think there is some responsibility to also try and reach that potential. Without that, we would never have gotten on some of our most impactful pieces of media and entertainment, and i think the world is poorer if that does not happen.