Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

I never told you that you were wrong for daring to speak out for him but because you stated something incredibly exaggerated. If you really hate having a discussion with me as much as you claim to then don't respond to my posts whether or not I respond to you. You always start out civil then quickly devolve to insults and rage.

It's as simple as this - nothing you've said disagrees with anything I've said. You've brought forth zero opinions of your own on this matter. You ask for opinions, and then you attack the opinions for being made. That's all you're doing, and it's insulting. It's absolutely trolling.

If you want a discussion, then you need to present your own opinion and talk about what you agree or disagree on. If you don't have an opinion on the matter, then there is nothing to discuss. In most cases, we're not actually arguing about anything, because most of the time you don't actually disagree with what's being said, only triggered by how it's being said. And there's actually nothing that you bring to the table to discuss, you're just being picky about how people are expressing their arguments. All you're doing is interrogating. That isn't a conversation.


If you actually want to have a conversation, present your opinion and what points that I've made that you personally agree or disagree with. Otherwise, I'm not interested in merely being attacked by your shitposting. And the more you want to carry on shitposting, the more I'm happy to call you out on doing exactly that.


Like, you came at this saying Christopher Tolkien also expressed having problems with Peter Jackson's movies. Well, do you think he would give Rings of Power a free pass? Do you think he would think more fondly about Rings of Power? I don't think so. Here are my reasons. What do you think? Let's discuss.

Instead, you offer zero opinion, zero disagreements, and only care to question and attack every point the other person makes. We've gone this far and I still don't know what you actually want to discuss, because you've not offered a single opinion on the matter.

[rhorle]

Like, you came at this saying Christopher Tolkien also expressed having problems with Peter Jackson's movies. Well, do you think he would give Rings of Power a free pass? Do you think he would think more fondly about Rings of Power?

He would have been involved in the sale of the rights even his resignation was announced a day or two after the rights sale. Officially it took place August 31st of that year. Wouldn't be involved in early talks? I've seen rumors that the estate had to pay $80 million in its lawsuit with Warner Brothers. So maybe he was forced out or the rights approval was part of an internal "apology" or something.

Amazon has also hinted at being "obliged" to not use Peter Jackson after initially approaching him. Amazon executive change? Warner Brothers? Or simply wanting to be entirely their own production? Unnamed sources from an article say the Tolkien estate insisted he can't have involvement which sounds like something Christopher might insist upon. Or that they heavily preferred the Amazon pitch over the "perceived problems" with the Jackson work.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv...es-1235193692/

However you interpret that it seems clear that the Tolkien estate, if not Christopher himself, was fine with Amazon's intent. Amazon makes like $2 to $3 billion a week so even what they spend on the show is a drop in the bucket. The fame and studio status is more important. It doesn't seem to fit with any nebulous definition of commercialization.

Just to nip something in the bud. If you don't want to discuss then don't respond. Simple as that. No need for all your rage filled attacks you either edit in or out.

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To add on to my previous post an article indicates that Amazon was approached by the Tolkien estate. Christopher was in charge with the deal. They had to originate their own material instead of using stuff from the Silmarillion and the Tolkien Estate could "cut" things out if it approached to much to work Amazon didn't have the rights to. This fits with some stories I've read of game design and only EA ever gaining the rights over the Silmarillion (though they let it lapse). The Tolkien estate has never given access to that content though that could change if they don't hold the same reservations as Christopher.

The author claims to not be paid or required to report on anything. That they were invited to these events as a member of "Tolkien press". Could it have been lies by Amazon or others? Sure. Could it be the truth? Sure.

https://www.theonering.net/torwp/202...in-the-fandom/

[Triceron]

However you interpret that it seems clear that the Tolkien estate, if not Christopher himself, was fine with Amazon's intent.

Except we're not talking about intent. You made it clear you were talking about the final product, since you brought an issue with Christopher Tolkien having issue with the action and lack of adhering to the spirit of Tolkien in PJ's films, not criticisms on PJ's intent on creating a LOTR trilogy. At the point of the Amazon deal, there wouldn't have been anything worth discussing creatively. No scripts, no decisions of what the story would be about. It would literally be rights deals.


If it's a matter of speculative discussion, I don't think Christopher would have been happy with Amazon's final product. Rings of Power still ended up being a complete commercially-driven, soulless product that distances itself quite a ways from Tolkien's work. It leans more heavily on its creative liberties than the PJ movies ever had. It is less faithful to the books, and it rewrites its own canon.

So if we're considering what Christopher Tolkien might think about Rings of Power, I don't think he would think it more favourably than PJ's LOTR or Hobbit trilogy at all. I think he would have just as much disdain over the fact it completely ignores most of the book's canon, which we all agree Rings of Power did. Considering he did not look favourably on the PJ movies as merely being an adaptation with creative liberties, I doubt he would regard Rings of Power in the same light.



And just googling it up, here's a compressed list of things Christopher Tolkien requested regarding the 2nd Age. Now, considering Amazon already bypassed some of this with time compression, how would Christopher Tolkien actually regard the Rings of Power timeline and adaptation? How would he regard the inclusion of Halbrand and omission of Annatar? How would he view the potential addition of Gandalf in the 2nd Age? Or the fact that two Durins exist in one time period?

These all creatively happened after his death, or behind closed doors while he was still alive and in retirement.
On these issues, I don't think he would be very happy.

What do you think?

[Fencers]

Just finished this up. It was okay. Too much plot.

[rhorle]

If it's a matter of speculative discussion, I don't think Christopher would have been happy with Amazon's final product.

So you ask for facts then say facts don't matter because it is all about speculation. It ultimately doesn't matter what you think Christopher would have thought. You are not him. The facts indicate he approved of the deal and restrictions of the deal. This is just like your grudge against Arondir that you've settled on Amazon/RoP being bad so no matter what everything has to agree with that regardless of the facts. You have some weird notion that Amazon has commercialized Rings of Power more so Christopher would dislike it. Yet provide no facts or anything else to back that speculation up other then "I say so".

https://youtu.be/kmc3sY0GQ0g?t=93 This is the podcast/streamer that originally stated that. They didn't provide a source at all so there is no telling how accurate it is.

We know those requests are not part of any actual deal or rule because lines are repurposed. Those rules don't even make sense given what we know about the rights and not being able to use events from The Silmarillion. So characters deaths in the second age couldn't be used as the article I provided indicated the estate would have things cut when it got close to things from The Silmarillion. Which also explains why they couldn't use Annatar. So I'm pretty sure Mr. Tolkien would be perfectly fine with out that character being used. Lol.

From the article in my last post you clearly didn't check out:"One thing that limited them was the rights. They could not touch The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales. The rights are only for The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. As such, the inclination is naturally to turn to the appendices of Return of the King, but even that is a gray area. If a plotline smelled too much like it was getting into Silmarillion territory, the Estate didn’t permit it in a script. The production was then pushed into the difficult situation of having to originate their own material."


It all comes down to Christopher Tolkien approving people to adapt the work. Even with out being an officer of the Estate he likely still had influence and gave strict terms about what could and could not be used. Even the rules you provided indicate that Mr.Tolkien was involved with guiding the direction of the show. Yet now you want to claim he hated it? With what evidence? Because you say so? Because the Jackson work can't be looked as worse than rings of power by anyone?

[melodramocracy]

I enjoyed, this, arguably more than I've enjoyed House of the Dragon, though it absolutely has it's flaws.

1. The characters are a bit thin in terms of writing. I get that this needs to appeal to a very wide audience, but there's just not a whole lot of depth to most of the characters, with the odd exception (Adar is well cast and very well acted, for example).

2. This is probably my biggest complaint. The action sequences make me think that the writers spend more time watching video game cut scenes than anything else. From Galadriel double tap dodging incoming arrows / spears while on horseback to Arondir topping an entire tower that was apparently held together with a single length of chain, most of what we've seen has been absurdity.

Beyond that though, it's all a solid first season. The show looks amazing, and there were some events that were a good surprise for me. It just needs a bit more meat on the bones. Looking forward to next season.

[Celement]

They made a solid 3/10 fantasy series that was brought up to 4/10.

It will most likely be remembered most for its meme of a fat persons with the line " there is a tempest in me" played before they shit themselves.

Odds are they will sideline the cast and try a almost hard restart in the two year hiatus for season two.

[Triceron]

So if Rings of power captures the spirit of the works better you don't think he would be find it more agreeable then the Jackson work?

It ultimately doesn't matter what you think Christopher would have thought. You are not him.

Don't ask what I think if you're not actually interested in what I think. Simple as that. It's insulting and dishonest. This is literally shitposting. I'll put this here so everyone can see here you're just trolling.

I'm only even humoring this because you literally asked a question about what I think. Since you don't seem to really care to talk opinions, there's nothing left to discuss here.
.
You be you.

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Odds are they will sideline the cast and try a almost hard restart in the two year hiatus for season two.

All things considered, I could see them bring far enough up their asses to consider this first season a success and do more of the same.

Seems to be what's happening with Wheel of Time.

[Raisei]

I laughed so hard when I heard that podcast interview they recorded recently.

They do not know how their own plot works. They want the watcher to decide for them what means what.... simply amazing...

The Feminems are the 3 witches from Macbeth. That's it. They have no connection to Tolkiens universe.

But best of all: They did not want to use Annatar because they couldn't understand how the different races would fall for it and they didn't want to make it obvious for the book readers.

1) Halbrand was so easily revealed that it is a joke. If you are retconning lore then at least do it well. If your aim is to hide a secret then put work into actually hiding it...

2) The sheer arrogance that these Hollywood apes think they could improve Tolkiens story ... it is glaringly obvious that they have zero respect for the books or the man.

3) Apparently season 2 is already written. So I got no clue whatsoever what they need 2,5 years for. Unless it is for rewriting the entire thing.

If I had created a show that was so universally disliked then I probably would just shut my mouth and work on imporvements. But nope. Not these guys. All they can do is brag and attack the fans, exactly like the She-Hulk troop. Must be that Hollywood lifestyle. Self-Congratulating and pushing all blame away.

If amazon doesn't kick these idiots out then season 2 is gonna be the exact same mess.

[rhorle]

Don't ask what I think if you're not actually interested in what I think. Simple as that. It's insulting and dishonest.

You know what is insulting a dishonest? Your constant need to insult and troll here. Every time. You'll start off with a civil discussion then get triggered by something where you just start flipping out. It doesn't matter what you think Christopher Tolkien would want because you are not him. It matters what he did and the actions he took. He approved the adaptation to be made. What is the honest thing here? What some random person thinks of someone? Or what that someone did?

You've provided nothing to support your claim other than you said so. I've done provided plenty of different things to indicate that Christopher Tolkien was fine with Amazon and didn't think they were worse than the Jackson films. The estate even has a creative say in the show which is better than what they had with the Jackson films. Some of the parts where the show doesn't follow canon is at the urging of the estate.

So why would he think bad? Because Amazon wants to make money which is somehow different then any of the other adaptations making money? Could he be unhappy with some specific story elements? Sure. Would he think it went against the spirit of Tolkien? Maybe Maybe not. It is clear that you are using more projection of your own views though rather then trying to look at an objective view of what another would think.

[Celement]

Don't ask what I think if you're not actually interested in what I think. Simple as that. It's insulting and dishonest. This is literally shitposting. I'll put this here so everyone can see here you're just trolling.

I'm only even humoring this because you literally asked a question about what I think. Since you don't seem to really care to talk opinions, there's nothing left to discuss here.
.
You be you.

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All things considered, I could see them bring far enough up their asses to consider this first season a success and do more of the same.

Seems to be what's happening with Wheel of Time.

It could be but I doubt it... I also don't think they consider wheel of tine a success.

While Amazon will be fine I don't think their video branch will be. The money has already been spent but I don't think they expected to eat so much loss from either project.

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You know what is insulting a dishonest? Your constant need to insult and troll here. Every time. You'll start off with a civil discussion then get triggered by something where you just start flipping out. It doesn't matter what you think Christopher Tolkien would want because you are not him. It matters what he did and the actions he took. He approved the adaptation to be made. What is the honest thing here? What some random person thinks of someone? Or what that someone did?

You've provided nothing to support your claim other than you said so. I've done provided plenty of different things to indicate that Christopher Tolkien was fine with Amazon and didn't think they were worse than the Jackson films. The estate even has a creative say in the show which is better than what they had with the Jackson films. Some of the parts where the show doesn't follow canon is at the urging of the estate.

So why would he think bad? Because Amazon wants to make money which is somehow different then any of the other adaptations making money? Could he be unhappy with some specific story elements? Sure. Would he think it went against the spirit of Tolkien? Maybe Maybe not. It is clear that you are using more projection of your own views though rather then trying to look at an objective view of what another would think.

What are you going on about?

They attached a wire to Tolkien's grave. Its spun so fast and so hard it solved the world energy crisis.

[rhorle]

They attached a wire to Tolkien's grave. Its spun so fast and so hard it solved the world energy crisis.

Blame the estate. They specifically told Amazon to cut things out of the script leaving them to come up with their own creation of things. They couldn't use the work in the Silmarillion. J.R.R might have disliked it, or he might not have. He wasn't opposed to adaptation outright. Christopher might have have liked Rings of Power or he might not have. He however did however make sure the Tolkien Estate was involved and able to have some creative control. The next best thing outside of the Tolkien Estate producing work themselves.

[Flurryfang]

The story has been more than fine. I've already watched all of the other stuff. When the other stuff as well as this has a new movie, or series, I will watch it as well. I'm a lover of fantasy. Good or bad when compared to the source material means nothing to me. For someone who is not a source nerd, and picking the material apart against the source, the show really isn't half bad. It's not great, but it's not bad. Very enjoyable to watch. I've been watching it on Sunday night around 8:00, right before house of the dragon airs... Well, up until the finale of both. lol

Maybe the story has been more than fine, but then the execution have gone poorly. And that is somewhat beside the point. It matters little what source material it has, it matters little how close it is to the source or the idea of Tolkien, its all about how good the show it as it stand on its own and how good it was supposed to be, when looking at the amount of energy and effort put into the product.

You might like it, thats great, but then question comes to why? I know many who like the show, but when i start asking questions why, its often just because its a high production fantasy show, not that the story or show is that particular good. It might aswell have been a harry potter tv-show for all they care, cause their standard is not that high. Whats important is that it is pretty, that it is something to talk about with their social circle and that it is something new to see.

Now, there is nothing bad in that opinion, but it won't create better TV. It allows the producers of the show to do the most barebone and people will still watch. I say that it is alright to have a high standard, especially when it comes to something made by a company like Amazon, something that might have a lasting impact and pressence than just when it is present.

Its also a question about potential. When there is potential, i think there is some responsibility to also try and reach that potential. Without that, we would never have gotten on some of our most impactful pieces of media and entertainment, and i think the world is poorer if that does not happen.

[Shadowferal]

It could be but I doubt it... I also don't think they consider wheel of tine a success. While Amazon will be fine I don't think their video branch will be. The money has already been spent but I don't think they expected to eat so much loss from either project.

It certainly explains why they really never bothered to make much headway against other streaming svs. They make what they can for half a dozen episodes, then wait a year or so, so everyone either forgets the trash they made, or put out another "season" when nothing else is on to compete.

[CerealLord]

Really liked the show. I am no Lord of the Rings buff by any means. Have only read the main line books and watched the movies. I enjoyed this show a lot. It was an enjoyable experience for pretty much all of the episodes and I look forward to next season.

[Celement]

Blame the estate. They specifically told Amazon to cut things out of the script leaving them to come up with their own creation of things. They couldn't use the work in the Silmarillion. J.R.R might have disliked it, or he might not have. He wasn't opposed to adaptation outright. Christopher might have have liked Rings of Power or he might not have. He however did however make sure the Tolkien Estate was involved and able to have some creative control. The next best thing outside of the Tolkien Estate producing work themselves.

Honestly I think it was a doomed venture to start with. The Silmarillion was always more novelty then story. I'm simply more amused by how bad the tire fire was. I never expected it would go well.

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It certainly explains why they really never bothered to make much headway against other streaming svs. They make what they can for half a dozen episodes, then wait a year or so, so everyone either forgets the trash they made, or put out another "season" when nothing else is on to compete.

I think that is somewhat harsh. They have had successes with the boys and invincible.

I just don't think you can do epic fantasy easily. They need to hammer out a very tight script then accept a project.

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Really liked the show. I am no Lord of the Rings buff by any means. Have only read the main line books and watched the movies. I enjoyed this show a lot. It was an enjoyable experience for pretty much all of the episodes and I look forward to next season.

Different people different tastes. I am kind of curious what you liked about it. I mean it had its moments for me to...

When they stole the south park " de took ur jobs" speech I burst out laughing.

[Raisei]

It certainly explains why they really never bothered to make much headway against other streaming svs. They make what they can for half a dozen episodes, then wait a year or so, so everyone either forgets the trash they made, or put out another "season" when nothing else is on to compete.

It's not like the other streaming services aren't having their DOA things too. The Resident Evil show on Netflix was like barfing on the franchises real-life actor grave that had already been pissed on by the Anderson movies. Disney Plus had the catastrophe that is She-Hulk and other weak Marvel stuff, Amazon was pretty well off before Rings with hits like Boys.
I think the problem is just a lack of care. When I saw the first few episodes of RE I could not believe that someone actually saw this script and gave those hacks money to produce it, but there must have been someone that signed off on it. Probably without so much as an iota of knowledge about the franchise or screenwriting. They just figured that the name Resident Evil would attract enough views and plus some virtue signaling would justify the investment. Beyond that, they could not care less.
With Rings of Power it was the exact same math. "Lord of the Rings" great name, will generate X amount of views, plus the whole "reflecting the world we live in today" stuff to attract the woke people that care about nothing but things they can be outraged about.
I am 98% sure that there is a monetary number attached to both of these things, to make the investment into such a show calculable for the people with money. It might not be exact, but I do not believe that any investor will move a finger without hearing the expected revenue they will get.

There are next to no passion projects anymore, noone is trying new things, because "new" could fail, and that means someone loses money. If this mindset had been around in the 70s and 80s we would not have some of the greatest movies of all time now and if this doesn't stop Hollywood is doomed.

[rhorle]

It certainly explains why they really never bothered to make much headway against other streaming svs. They make what they can for half a dozen episodes, then wait a year or so, so everyone either forgets the trash they made, or put out another "season" when nothing else is on to compete.

Amazon has had many critically acclaimed hits. They were also the first streaming service to win or be nominated for some awards (Transparent in 2015). Also every service likes to put out series when there is little competition. Why would they actively compete when there is no reason to? It has nothing to do with something being trash. Just because you don't like at least two of their shows doesn't mean they are actually doing poorly on the industry or business side.

I didn't check what sources or data they used but a quick search has Prime video at a 20% market share with Netflix dropping to 21%. https://www.protocol.com/newsletters...1#rebelltitem1 and it looks like Canada is similar for Prime Video with 20% share while Netflix has a 25% share as of July 2022.

[Raisei]

Honestly I think it was a doomed venture to start with. The Silmarillion was always more novelty then story. I'm simply more amused by how bad the tire fire was. I never expected it would go well.

Pretty much yes. But I think that is more because they picked some newbie writers instead of someone with experience and proven skill for such a project. This isn't the kind of job you give your apprentice while you sit back and watch, this needed a master class writer and there were several avaiable.

[Shadowferal]

I find ICE rpg interpretation of the less known material far more interesting. And despite the derivations, it seems more in keeping to the spirit of being "Tolkienesque."