Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[bledgor]

Pretty sure we did that a few times in the Wheel of Time thread. It never mattered. That's pretty much added to the fact that he's obviously a kid with kiddie arguments.. .or some version of libertarian.

Honestly just need more people to not engage his trolling, all he does is derail, gaslight, and bad faith.

[Triceron]

Honestly just need more people to not engage his trolling, all he does is derail, gaslight, and bad faith.

I think you're right on this. At this point I realize it looks like he craves the attention, even if it's negative.

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Pretty sure we did that a few times in the Wheel of Time thread. It never mattered. That's pretty much added to the fact that he's obviously a kid with kiddie arguments.. .or some version of libertarian.

I was active in that thread too but never really engaged or noticed his posts there. Had I known...

[Raisei]

They all have writing credits as well as producer credits. Gennifer Hutchison wrote 5 episodes of Breaking Bad according to IMDB for example. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0903747/fullcredits/writer Sure they are by no means master class but they aren't new either. They could have had show runners with a little more work under their hands. I wonder if them being such a tight knit duo hurts the show as well. I can't help but wonder if the show's line about a triumvirate being best might also apply to the show.

I meant credited as writers on Rings. But it doesn't matter much, producers should have seen the flaws in the show just as well as writers.

Peter Jackson had about 9 films of various quality when he was given Tolkien's work so a little inexperience is never a bad thing but it was still more than these. Sometimes just the luck of the draw and I wonder where Mr. Jackson would be if he made the cut down script before he was given basically free reign to do his full vision. Would we still look fondly on the movies or would it have been more like Rings of Power and just a middle of the road experience. Not bad but not exceptional.

The fact that when he was given free reign he did as well as he did shows that indeed even relatively little experience can be enough. But he also had a lot more Tolkien to draw from for a lot fewer hours of screenplay. He didn't really have to "write" plot in so much as "adapt" plot that was there already. Not that that makes his achievement smaller. Plus he had the help of some true legends on the acting team, like McKellen and Lee (who acually met Tolkien and could give pointers).

I do not hate the showrunners for their inexperience, they can't help it. The Tolkien estate should never have given this to newbies without supervision in the first place, there should have been a senior creator to help. It is just by far too big a project to use it as an "apprentice project", especially if there is no master to check the work.
You wouldn't let your 2,5 billion dollar ferrari be repaired by the apprentices in the car shop without a master checking their work and the same applies to the making of a screenplay.

This one is definately on the estate for the poor choice. However that does not excuse the showrunners pushing all blame on the audience and accepting none of the critique. It's the reaction of petulent children and simply unworthy for the resonsibility given to them.

[Syegfryed]

I laughed so hard when I heard that podcast interview they recorded recently.

I know right? i heard about the podcast from another source, those dues are beyond delusional.

They either have some sort of schizophrenia, or they are just panicking, they can't be consistent in the show let alone in the interviews, like saying they made halbrand to make a secret and surprise book readers but say they didn't want to surprise anyone neither make a mystery

But best of all: They did not want to use Annatar because they couldn't understand how the different races would fall for it and they didn't want to make it obvious for the book readers.

That part alone shows how fucking bad and dishonest they were, they prob didn't read shit or just were too high on something and didn't understand, because it shows no knowledge or understanding of the very show they want to adapt, is bogus. Is a new lv of hubris to think you could make what tolkien better without even reading.

[rhorle]

I meant credited as writers on Rings. But it doesn't matter much, producers should have seen the flaws in the show just as well as writers.

They are credited as writers on Rings of Power. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt7631058/fullcredits/writer

The estate didn't pick anyone. Amazon did. However the estate might have had input since they did say that Mr. Jackson couldn't be involved even as a consultant on scripts. The show runners haven't pushed it all on the audience. The hate and other silly stuff over diversity sure. But they have admitted that things in Season 1 didn't work out as they had hopped.

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That part alone shows how fucking bad and dishonest they were, they prob didn't read shit or just were too high on something and didn't understand, because it shows no knowledge or understanding of the very show they want to adapt, is bogus. Is a new lv of hubris to think you could make what tolkien better without even reading.

It also has to be considered that they didn't use Annatar because they couldn't use anything mentioned in the Silmarillion. They might have been able to get special permission from the estate for some things but it would be far easier to create a new character then work with a limited character. It has nothing to do with hubris and doing better than Tolkien. It has everything to do with the complication of rights and the estate being super protective of the work that was not published by J.R.R.

[Syegfryed]

It also has to be considered that they didn't use Annatar because they couldn't use anything mentioned in the Silmarillion. They might have been able to get special permission from the estate for some things but it would be far easier to create a new character then work with a limited character. It has nothing to do with hubris and doing better than Tolkien. It has everything to do with the complication of rights and the estate being super protective of the work that was not published by J.R.R.

????????????????
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They literally told in the interview why they decide to change the plot and retcon the events, it has nothing to do with the name Anathar, he could be Called Kevin for all the fuck i care, they changed because they thought it was dumb for then to accept his gifts.

"rights" sure

[Raisei]

They are credited as writers on Rings of Power. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt7631058/fullcredits/writer

The estate didn't pick anyone. Amazon did. However the estate might have had input since they did say that Mr. Jackson couldn't be involved even as a consultant on scripts. The show runners haven't pushed it all on the audience. The hate and other silly stuff over diversity sure. But they have admitted that things in Season 1 didn't work out as they had hopped.

If the estate has the power to outright deny people to work on it then they literally pick and choose who they want. Amazon is the money, they didn't care one way or the other, could have been a monkey in a sombrero writing long as it makes them profit.

And yes, they have flatly called all critics "patently evil". They did not discriminate there. Much like the She-Hulk writer has declared that every critic is a misogynist, the Rings people have lumped all critics together with the racists, because it is so nicely simple and absolves them off all wrong-doing.
I am not sure where you saw them admitting to mistakes, all I have heard is false accusations of the critics and self-agrandisement (or paying poor Felicia Day to celebrate them as having created a "Master Work" *shudder*).
There was that one page of text that amazon probably forced them to release, which held some promises for the second season, but this falls flatly under "I believe it when I see it"

It also has to be considered that they didn't use Annatar because they couldn't use anything mentioned in the Silmarillion. They might have been able to get special permission from the estate for some things but it would be far easier to create a new character then work with a limited character. It has nothing to do with hubris and doing better than Tolkien. It has everything to do with the complication of rights and the estate being super protective of the work that was not published by J.R.R.

That is indeed not the reason they have given themselves. The podcast is quite clear, just go and listen to it, it is the offical podcast to the series on amazon music, hosted by Felicia Day, free too. No word of right issues. It was all "we didn't trust Tolkiens story to work".

[Kumorii]

Can't seem to find that podcast... Anyone have a link?

[Raisei]

Can't seem to find that podcast... Anyone have a link?

https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/11...-power-podcast

Mostly talking about the last one "Alloyed".

[Triceron]

https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/11...-power-podcast

Mostly talking about the last one "Alloyed".

Thank you for sharing this, definitely gonna check it out

[rhorle]

If the estate has the power to outright deny people to work on it then they literally pick and choose who they want. Amazon is the money, they didn't care one way or the other, could have been a monkey in a sombrero writing long as it makes them profit.

Amazon still staffed the project and decided on the show runners. We have articles describing the pitch the two made to Amazon to get the job. There is no reason to shift it on to the estate. They didn't call all critics patently evil. They only applied that to the ones attacking over diversity. This is another thing that is silly to misapply.


"Payne looks particularly distressed by the topic. “The spirit of Tolkien is about disparate peoples who don’t trust one another and look different from one another finding common ground in friendship and accomplishing big things,” he says. “That’s the spirit we’ve tried to inculcate into every single comma and period in the show. That this aspiration would be offensive to people and enrage them … it’s very hard for us to understand. What are they protecting? I don’t see how people who are saying these things think that they’re fighting for good. There’s a line in episode seven where Galadriel says every war is fought from without and within. Even if you’re fighting for something you think is good, if you do something worse in that fight, then you become evil. I don’t see how people who are saying these things think that they’re fighting for good. It’s patently evil.”" -https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/the-rings-of-power-showrunners-interview-season-2-1235233124/

That is indeed not the reason they have given themselves. The podcast is quite clear, just go and listen to it, it is the offical podcast to the series on amazon music, hosted by Felicia Day, free too. No word of right issues. It was all "we didn't trust Tolkiens story to work".

Which could still be a rights issue. If they couldn't use the specifics but create their own then they might not have trusted it to work without it being a servant of the Valar they idolize. People still fall for Nigerian Prince scams in the real world so maybe it would have still been believable. That seems to be what they were saying. That in the modern day we are much more aware of scams and "to good to be true" might not work the same.


"(Sauron mystery) "we wanted him to come into the narrative in an unexpected way. If you think about the obvious way - a tall mysterious beautiful demigod named Annatar shows up and says 'let me help you with all your problems by making some rings'... who's going to fall for that?" "There's this idea in Tolkien of chance meetings, upon which much hinges" "-https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=43239

[Raisei]

Amazon still staffed the project and decided on the show runners. We have articles describing the pitch the two made to Amazon to get the job. There is no reason to shift it on to the estate. They didn't call all critics patently evil. They only applied that to the ones attacking over diversity. This is another thing that is silly to misapply.

I do have a bias but it isn't hidden. I dislike people that are blaming others for their own failures. But isn't it telling that you immediatedly jump the bandwagon and accuse me of being biased, because I have a critical view of the show? Just as the showrunners cannot perceive anyone disliking their show for any reason other then being evil racists, you cannot perceive me disliking the show without an agenda behind it.

"Payne looks particularly distressed by the topic. “The spirit of Tolkien is about disparate peoples who don’t trust one another and look different from one another finding common ground in friendship and accomplishing big things,” he says. “That’s the spirit we’ve tried to inculcate into every single comma and period in the show. That this aspiration would be offensive to people and enrage them … it’s very hard for us to understand. What are they protecting? I don’t see how people who are saying these things think that they’re fighting for good. There’s a line in episode seven where Galadriel says every war is fought from without and within. Even if you’re fighting for something you think is good, if you do something worse in that fight, then you become evil. I don’t see how people who are saying these things think that they’re fighting for good. It’s patently evil.”" -https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/the-rings-of-power-showrunners-interview-season-2-1235233124/

This just reinforces me view. They consider themselves the tragic heroes in a fight for justice and equality in our world, with the show just the medium for their message. Obviously people who think this way are unable to seperate the message from the quality of the show. It is obvious that the quality of the show was never their main focus, they wanted to spread this message and to do that, they wrapped it in "the spirit of Tolkien".

And just to make this clear again, though I am sure you will still accuse me of it. No, I do not disagree with the message. I am all for equality and justice. But it doesn't excuse their terrible writing and using it as a shield against critique is pathetic.

Which could still be a rights issue. If they couldn't use the specifics but create their own then they might not have trusted it to work without it being a servant of the Valar they idolize. People still fall for Nigerian Prince scams in the real world so maybe it would have still been believable. That seems to be what they were saying. That in the modern day we are much more aware of scams and "to good to be true" might not work the same.

"(Sauron mystery) "we wanted him to come into the narrative in an unexpected way. If you think about the obvious way - a tall mysterious beautiful demigod named Annatar shows up and says 'let me help you with all your problems by making some rings'... who's going to fall for that?" "There's this idea in Tolkien of chance meetings, upon which much hinges" "-https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=43239[/QUOTE]

Their disbelief not withstanding, this is what happens cannonically. It is a fallacy that stems from their need to bend Tolkiens universe until it reflects our world. Because in our world accepting a gift from a mysterious stranger usually leads to bad things, does not mean the people of middle earth have the same experience to draw from. In fact it would be more logical to develop such a mindset AFTER Annatar.
But these writers are just not able to leave the confines of our world and allow Fantasy be Fantasy and that is why the show isn't working.

[rhorle]

And just to make this clear again, though I am sure you will still accuse me of it. No, I do not disagree with the message. I am all for equality and justice. But it doesn't excuse their terrible writing and using it as a shield against critique is pathetic.

They are not using it as a shield. Their comments are only in response to the hatred levied about certain topics and not against all critique of the show.

Their disbelief not withstanding, this is what happens cannonically. It is a fallacy that stems from their need to bend Tolkiens universe until it reflects our world. Because in our world accepting a gift from a mysterious stranger usually leads to bad things, does not mean the people of middle earth have the same experience to draw from. In fact it would be more logical to develop such a mindset AFTER Annatar. But these writers are just not able to leave the confines of our world and allow Fantasy be Fantasy and that is why the show isn't working.

Again, canon that they might not be able to use. As the estate has had them remove stuff that gets to close to things from Tolkien works they don't have the rights to. This isn't even the first example of this happening as it has been done with various video games as well. The estate is very protective of the work published after the death of JRR Tolkien.

It is also silly to have the notion that Fantasy isn't Fantasy unless it has old fashion concepts and no connections to the time period it was created in. It ignores how a lot of Tolkien's work is framed by his experiences with War and other things. It wasn't allegory but it was still present. So wouldn't Tolkien's own works no longer be "Fantasy" and not work for doing the same thing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gr...d_Middle-earth

[Recovery]

I think non-book readers is really the target audience of the show. People who may have watched the LOTR and Hobbit movies, and otherwise don't know anything about the Second Age.

To be honest, adaptations like this are best enjoyed without the frame of reference in mind. Like every time I think about how awful the M. Night Airbender movie was, I still remember that everyone I've talked to who enjoyed the movie were all people who never watched the original series. They didn't have a frame of reference to compare to, and they were able to enjoy the movie as a standalone thing.

Yes, this is exactly what I was originally trying to say. Movies / series' that are made out of existing IP's are almost never made explicitly for the die hard IP fan.. They wouldnt make any money if they did that.

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Maybe the story has been more than fine, but then the execution have gone poorly. And that is somewhat beside the point. It matters little what source material it has, it matters little how close it is to the source or the idea of Tolkien, its all about how good the show it as it stand on its own and how good it was supposed to be, when looking at the amount of energy and effort put into the product.

You might like it, thats great, but then question comes to why? I know many who like the show, but when i start asking questions why, its often just because its a high production fantasy show, not that the story or show is that particular good. It might aswell have been a harry potter tv-show for all they care, cause their standard is not that high. Whats important is that it is pretty, that it is something to talk about with their social circle and that it is something new to see.

Now, there is nothing bad in that opinion, but it won't create better TV. It allows the producers of the show to do the most barebone and people will still watch. I say that it is alright to have a high standard, especially when it comes to something made by a company like Amazon, something that might have a lasting impact and pressence than just when it is present.

Its also a question about potential. When there is potential, i think there is some responsibility to also try and reach that potential. Without that, we would never have gotten on some of our most impactful pieces of media and entertainment, and i think the world is poorer if that does not happen.

Exactly. These people are who the studios and producers make their money off of. The vocal majority (those like you, critcs, etc) are not the big money market. So as I originally said, the target audience is almost surely people like me who sit down on Sunday night to watch Rings of power and house of the dragon with my wife while we eat dinner. Entertainment that is decent enough to keep us coming back for 8-10 weeks while we eat dinner.

Now, could it be better? 100%. Should it be better as a result of the insanely large budget it had? Definitely. Will it still profit? Absolutely. Will they continue the series? Certainly.

[Biomega]

Yes, this is exactly what I was originally trying to say. Movies / series' that are made out of existing IP's are almost never made explicitly for the die hard IP fan.. They wouldnt make any money if they did that.

While that's true, historically they also were most successful if they appealed to BOTH fans and non-fans - the idea being that the fans with existing IP investment would like it and spread their positive impressions to non-fans, thereby increasing interest overall.

However, it seems that during the last few years that formula isn't really observed anymore. Maybe the internet has provided enough of a platform that they think they don't need fans to drive hype anymore, or something. I don't know. But this is far from the first project to just tell the fans to take it or leave it and instead just make generic genre stuff they hope will appease the broad, uniformed masses. And if the fans hate it, then who cares.

[Recovery]

While that's true, historically they also were most successful if they appealed to BOTH fans and non-fans - the idea being that the fans with existing IP investment would like it and spread their positive impressions to non-fans, thereby increasing interest overall.

However, it seems that during the last few years that formula isn't really observed anymore. Maybe the internet has provided enough of a platform that they think they don't need fans to drive hype anymore, or something. I don't know. But this is far from the first project to just tell the fans to take it or leave it and instead just make generic genre stuff they hope will appease the broad, uniformed masses. And if the fans hate it, then who cares.

Yup! At the end of the day, if all of the people complaining about lore inaccuracies, etc, has no previously knowledge of tolkien lore, the only thing they would have to complain about is the slow story story progression and stale acting. So again, overall, decent show. 6/10. Will watch season 2.

[InfiniteCharger]

This series and a lot of others like it are not made for anybody other than themselves and nobody else. All of their talking points are contradicted by the fact that they didn't "earn" their positions but got them through anything but merit. And because of that, they live in a bubble, where they believe their own marketing and promotion material as if that is reality. And as a result, for the most part, what they make often appeals to nobody. Also, they are contractually obligated to make multiple seasons of this series as part of the original rights agreement, which is predicated on the original rights only covering television series of up to 8 episodes. Basically this all boils down to Simon Tolkien following his own belief that studios aren't required to stick close to his grandfather's lore and he found a way to make some money off of that legacy.

[Triceron]

While that's true, historically they also were most successful if they appealed to BOTH fans and non-fans - the idea being that the fans with existing IP investment would like it and spread their positive impressions to non-fans, thereby increasing interest overall.

However, it seems that during the last few years that formula isn't really observed anymore. Maybe the internet has provided enough of a platform that they think they don't need fans to drive hype anymore, or something. I don't know. But this is far from the first project to just tell the fans to take it or leave it and instead just make generic genre stuff they hope will appease the broad, uniformed masses. And if the fans hate it, then who cares.

I don't think even historically film companies/directors gave any special attention to most of the work being adapted. Like thinking back on the 80's and 90's movies of the time, there's plenty of adaptations that had little to nothing to do with the source material. Even blockbusters like Tim Burton's Batman or critically acclaimed films like the Shining weren't working off source material, rather the director's vision of what they wanted the films to be.

I'm curious what you may have observed as a shift to or from more faithful adaptations.

[Shadowferal]

Bezos wanted "A Game of Thrones." A series that was mostly faithful to the books, the kast couple seasons notwithstanding.

No one believes now that he's received what he paid for.

[rhorle]

Basically this all boils down to Simon Tolkien following his own belief that studios aren't required to stick close to his grandfather's lore and he found a way to make some money off of that legacy.

Christopher Tolkien was in charge when the deal was made. If the agreement requires content regardless of quality it isn't on Simon as the deal was already in place. The deal also has it where Amazon can't stick close to JRR's lore if it didn't appear in the work published prior to his death.

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Even blockbusters like Tim Burton's Batman or critically acclaimed films like the Shining weren't working off source material, rather the director's vision of what they wanted the films to be.

It is funny you say that given that the 1989 Batman movie used comics as source material. The same with the Shining using the novel as a source. What you praise those two films for doing is the same thing that people criticize Rings of Power of doing. Adapting the source into their own vision. Yet because those films were loved it is acceptable. If something is disliked it becomes an issue that a film/show deviated. It is a strange double standard that gets applied depending on the bias of the one making the claim.

Mr. King, the author, even slammed the adaptation of his book for not getting the themes right. He even credits it as what caused him to pay more attention to how his books were adapted. It didn't stop many from enjoying the film though and it getting praise. Yet in the context of this thread we are led to believe that all of that is a bad thing. Yet if these same people liked the show they wouldn't find that to be an issue anymore. So it really isn't relevant except for a unnecessary justification.