Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Xath]

Well yeah they paid for 4-5 seasons upfront like wheel of time. They are also taking 2 years to try and salvage it.

Much like star trek discovery though I think its fucked. The fondation is just to low quality.

I don't think activists or anything ruined it I just think they hide behind powerful woman and black actors like any poorly written media does these days.

The truth is the writing just sucked... I don't really even know if the actors are good or not given the script. I think amazon just got addicted to buying sight unseen with their success with the boys and invincible.

This is the issue. They use casting as a shield for crappy writing as soon as someone starts trumpeting about how great it is that they are modernizing a series it tells me they aren't confident in the writing. Compare casting Idris Elba as Heimdall which is a radical departure from the comics but wasn't trumpeted about to the first content on rings being the "super fans" talking about representation.

[rhorle]

This is the issue. They use casting as a shield for crappy writing as soon as someone starts trumpeting about how great it is that they are modernizing a series it tells me they aren't confident in the writing..

They have never used any casting as a shield for bad writing. There were complaints about diversity with Thor back in 2010. This seems to be yet again an example of something only being an issue when you hate the show/film that makes use of it.

[Xath]

They have never used any casting as a shield for bad writing. There were complaints about diversity with Thor back in 2010. This seems to be yet again an example of something only being an issue when you hate the show/film that makes use of it.

They very often do. Also I was specifically talking about the difference in marketing. Of course there were complaints about a norse god being played by a black dude shockingly enough the norse were kind of white. The difference is Idris being cast wasn't the focal point of initial marketing unlike in rings and rafe of time.

[Raisei]

They are not using it as a shield. Their comments are only in response to the hatred levied about certain topics and not against all critique of the show.

And yet I haven't seen them reponding to any critique but this one, let alone accepting it.

Again, canon that they might not be able to use. As the estate has had them remove stuff that gets to close to things from Tolkien works they don't have the rights to. This isn't even the first example of this happening as it has been done with various video games as well. The estate is very protective of the work published after the death of JRR Tolkien.

Again, you are grasping at straw. We have their own words for why they did it. You are just trying to make up excuses where there are none.

It is also silly to have the notion that Fantasy isn't Fantasy unless it has old fashion concepts and no connections to the time period it was created in. It ignores how a lot of Tolkien's work is framed by his experiences with War and other things. It wasn't allegory but it was still present. So wouldn't Tolkien's own works no longer be "Fantasy" and not work for doing the same thing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gr...d_Middle-earth

The point I was trying to make is that Middle-Earth isn't OUR world. It is a fantasy world with people that have completely different experiences then we do.

For example, in most fantasy games and works you have some type of gigantic spiders bigger then humans (in Tolkien too). If people from our world, absolutely not used to something like this, would even see such a creature close up they would likely die from sheer shock, while a fantasy adventurer considers them not much different then any other big animal, simply because something like that is much more common.

You cannot just assume that the mindset of the modern person is applicable to the fantasy realm you talk about, you need to understand that this other world has it's own rules and own minds, grown from their own experiences.

Again an example: Why are the Harfoots living like Nomads? And what is generating their constant fear, that is so strong that they literally leave family members behind if they can't keep up? Has there been a huge tribe of Harfoots living in one place in the past and then they were attacked and decimated until only these few are left? Something that made them think that settling anywhere for longer then a few days puts them in mortal danger? Or is there someone actively hunting them for some precious resource only they have and that is why they cannot even hold long enough to safe the lives of their own?
The show answers none of these questions. We have no idea what drives them to be as they are, what experiences shaped their way of life, hence why they come across as horrible terrible people that let their own people die for no reason whatsoever.

That is the problem here. The World-Building fails abyssmaly because it either isn't done at all or the writers just apply the mindset of a modern person that has very different experiences from a Tolkien character. A fantasy writer needs to be able to "dream" in a sense, to "live" in the world they create to portray how the characters feel and think. Escapism isn't just for the reader of the book, it is absolutely required for the writer too.

Tolkien for example lived in a terrible time. WWI, the rise of Naziism then WWII, yet his books are full of hope and beauty and beating the evil monsters not with blood and sword but with friendship and mercy (Sam and Frodo and Gollum) because he clearly could escape his cruel reality with his writing.

Martin is living in a relatively safe and secure time (the modern time), yet he is able to create a terrible world where even children can get brutally murdered if they are in the way of someones goals, so he too is able to seperate himself and his experiences from the world he is writing of.

This is something that the Rings writers are wholly unable to do. They reflect the world of today both in looks as well as in mindset because they cannot break out of it and that is why they fail to create characters that are in any way relateable or even likeable.

[Triceron]

Again, you are grasping at straw. We have their own words for why they did it. You are just trying to make up excuses where there are none.

You'll come to see he does this a lot. He's all bad faith, just a word of warning.

Again an example: Why are the Harfoots living like Nomads? And what is generating their constant fear, that is so strong that they literally leave family members behind if they can't keep up? Has there been a huge tribe of Harfoots living in one place in the past and then they were attacked and decimated until only these few are left? Something that made them think that settling anywhere for longer then a few days puts them in mortal danger? Or is there someone actively hunting them for some precious resource only they have and that is why they cannot even hold long enough to safe the lives of their own?
The show answers none of these questions. We have no idea what drives them to be as they are, what experiences shaped their way of life, hence why they come across as horrible terrible people that let their own people die for no reason whatsoever.

I share the same sentiments for the most part. Everything about this series is so incredibly contrived that it's hard to really see these people as being real. It's like their entire existence is owed to moving the plot along, and the sad thing is they don't really have a plot at all. It's all over the place, and I think your point about them lacking a tangible history hits the nail on the head. It's hard to care about a race that doesn't make sense. It's almost like it would have been better if they just stuck to one concept instead of trying to give them depth and nuance through those contradictions.

That is the problem here. The World-Building fails abyssmaly because it either isn't done at all or the writers just apply the mindset of a modern person that has very different experiences from a Tolkien character. A fantasy writer needs to be able to "dream" in a sense, to "live" in the world they create to portray how the characters feel and think. Escapism isn't just for the reader of the book, it is absolutely required for the writer too.

This.

What Rings of Power has shown is that it completely does not understand what Tolkien set out to create. All the world building in RoP feels unearned and contrived. It's really sad too, because having the LOTR liscence and access to the Peter Jackson film aesthetics and designs really opens up to a lot of cool potential.

I'll give them that the visuals were pretty grand, but all the writing is so bad that the world doesn't even really matter when the people living in it are so one-dimensional. It's like as cool as Numenor is, all I think of is an island of xenophobic idiots who think Elves will take their jobs when the Elf who came to the island literally did nothing to instigate that threat. Like, why would they even care about Elves taking their jobs when the one who was actually trying to take their jobs was Human? This just makes Numenoreans look dumb as dirt.

And it's such a contrast to shows like House of the Dragon or Andor, which have incredible world building. These shows do so much with very little dialogue, and it doesn't insult your intelligence.

[rhorle]

Again, you are grasping at straw. We have their own words for why they did it. You are just trying to make up excuses where there are none.

But so are you. Because that doesn't stop rights from being the issue as well. It just means they diverged for more than one reason and talked about the creative rather then what they were told they couldn't use by the estate. That is the point. We don't know because the rights issue is complicated not often talked about. They have also responded to other critique then diversity complaints. Stop using one thing to mean everything just because it is something you really dislike.

That is the problem here. The World-Building fails abyssmaly because it either isn't done at all or the writers just apply the mindset of a modern person that has very different experiences from a Tolkien character. A fantasy writer needs to be able to "dream" in a sense, to "live" in the world they create to portray how the characters feel and think. Escapism isn't just for the reader of the book, it is absolutely required for the writer too.

World building is not required to answer every single question you may have about a subject in order for it to be good. Again if we apply your critique to Tolkien's own work we find that a lot of his world building happened outside of his published work. He even was constantly changing his world including a desire to re-write all of The Hobbit for its tone and story to better fit Lord of the Rings.

This is something that the Rings writers are wholly unable to do. They reflect the world of today both in looks as well as in mindset because they cannot break out of it and that is why they fail to create characters that are in any way relateable or even likeable.

To you. Again you keep making things about one issue only. There were authors of Tolkien's time that created terrible worlds just as there are ones of that great non-terrible ones now. There are likable characters in Rings of Power. They might not relate to you but then that shouldn't be a problem, right? Because fiction is designed to be written for more then just one person. Just like Tolkien doesn't have characters that are relatable to everyone. Which using that now for Rings of Power contradicts your earlier Fantasy claims. As to be relatable they have to reflect parts of the "modern world" in the actions of the characters, right? Yet when they try to make the "scam" more relatable you tear it apart for being made relatable. Strange, right?

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This just makes Numenoreans look dumb as dirt.

Hate for the sake of hate is dumb as dirt. It isn't about making sense but stoking that hate for a cause. Are you really that surprised a politician would be able to manipulate such things?

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They very often do.

Rings of Power has never said they couldn't write better because X was in the role. The only ones using casting as a shield are the ones like you that keep making certain aspects of casting as the reason why bad writing exists. While ignoring that the writing would be bad regardless of casting. You and others really expose your silly claims by what aspects you just can't let go even when you'll admit they don't matter at all if you like the show/film.

[InfiniteCharger]

Christopher Tolkien was in charge when the deal was made. If the agreement requires content regardless of quality it isn't on Simon as the deal was already in place. The deal also has it where Amazon can't stick close to JRR's lore if it didn't appear in the work published prior to his death.

He retired from the board of the Estate before the deal was made and Simon was outspoken about his feelings long before that and had publicly admitted to having differences in opinion with his father Christopher.

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I don't think even historically film companies/directors gave any special attention to most of the work being adapted. Like thinking back on the 80's and 90's movies of the time, there's plenty of adaptations that had little to nothing to do with the source material. Even blockbusters like Tim Burton's Batman or critically acclaimed films like the Shining weren't working off source material, rather the director's vision of what they wanted the films to be.

I'm curious what you may have observed as a shift to or from more faithful adaptations.

Hollywood never respects the source material which is why Peter Jackson is lauded for his efforts. However, the key here is not simply whether or not they stick true to the source material or not, it is also in the skill and talent of those producing the final product. Stanley Kubrick as the director of the Shining is one of the most influential and accomplished directors of all time and the result is something that is a masterpiece in its own right whether or not it accurately reflects Steven King's vision. The Rings of Power is no such thing by any stretch of the imagination and at this point in time the core issue in Hollywood is a lack of talent on the level of a Stanley Kubrick and generally a decline in the art of filmaking overall that is the biggest problem.

I would argue that even though Steven King hated Stanley Kubrick's adaptation, almost nobody noticed because the film was such a success.......

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/why-ste...k-the-shining/

[rhorle]

He retired from the board of the Estate before the deal was made and Simon was outspoken about his feelings long before that and had publicly admitted to having differences in opinion with his father Christopher.

He did not. His "official" retirement was August 31st 2017 and announced a few days after the Rings of Power deal was announced. He was however still in charge when the deal was signed. It was even the estate while Christopher would have been in charge that approached Amazon, and others, to make a pitch for the rights.

"Christopher Tolkien (the Professor’s son) was in charge of the Estate at the time the deal was made in 2017. He passed away three years later in 2020 after production on the show had already begun, and the directorship was passed on to his son, Simon Tolkien."-- https://www.theonering.net/torwp/202...in-the-fandom/

Hollywood never respects the source material which is why Peter Jackson is lauded for his efforts.

And yet he is accused by the estate of not respecting the source material. It is always so strange how people will ignore or downplay things like that when they themselves like the final product. But when they don't like the final product exaggerate "not respecting" it as if it is the most important thing. It just shows how little those things really matter.

[Triceron]

I would argue that even though Steven King hated Stanley Kubrick's adaptation, almost nobody noticed because the film was such a success.......

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/why-ste...k-the-shining/

Both Tolkiens would be rolling in their graves if they saw Rings of Power

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Hate for the sake of hate is dumb as dirt. It isn't about making sense but stoking that hate for a cause. Are you really that surprised a politician would be able to manipulate such things?

It was the guild dude who got beat up who stirred the pot in the first place, not the politician.

And if the people were that easily manipulated by the lie, one where it'a obvious the Elf didn't even do anything to instigate the matter, then everyone looks dumb for playing into complete nonsense. There's nothing for the audience to connect why Numenoreans would believe Elves are taking anyone's job.

It's shit writing. Look how HoD or Andor does political manipulation without insulting the intelligence of the audience. This single scene has been compared to South Park so many times for good reason.

[rhorle]

And if the people were that easily manipulated by the lie, one where it'a obvious the Elf didn't even do anything to instigate the matter, then everyone looks dumb for playing into complete nonsense. There'a no actual logical link to Elves taking anyone's job, it's not even remotely believable. That is the whole point.

Hate doesn't have to be believable in order to be exploited. It doesn't have to be logical. Andor is using the same principle just for the side of "good". Andor spoilers: It is stated the Rebellion wants the Empire to over react to exploit people's hatred of that over reaction. All so they can get more people supporting their cause even though the rebels caused the crackdown in the first place

The concept and the writing isn't bad on Rings of Power in this regard. It is the acceptance of it that seems to be because one show is liked while the other is not.

[Triceron]

The concept and the writing isn't bad on Rings of Power in this regard. It is the acceptance of it that seems to be because one show is liked while the other is not.

It's one of the most criticized points for being avsolutely contrived and nonsensical.

I don't agree with you in thinking the anti-elf sentiments of Numenoreans (or even Southlanders for that matter) was well written.

The difference with Andor is that the show makes it clear what the Empire stands for and shows its ruthless oppressive tyrannical state and how it affects people's lives and brings about fear. We have none of this related to the viewer in how Elves do the same to Numenoreans. These people have lived entire generations without ever having even seen an Elf, so their hatred is coming from naivete and ignorance rather than a lived-through experience like we have in Andor. The Numenorean's hate is not tangible, and is what makes it unbelievable.

It's like they rushed through am important step to set up what they wanted to pay off. And they could have easily done so with Galadriel saying something at her first meeting with Miriel that could be interpreted or implied that Elves are better than men, and that Elves could do a better job. Then they could show that message being circulated through the town, culminating to this rally. But nope, the setup comes from Halbrand whupping ass and getting caught and the Numenoreans having nothing to cry about except blame it on the Elves. And everyone around them ate it up.

[rhorle]

These people have lived entire generations without ever having even seen an Elf, so their hatred is coming from naivete and ignorance rather than a lived-through experience like we have in Andor.

The spoiler tag in my last post indicates that this isn't the case with Andor. The empire has been a little oppressive but Andor is an entirely new level. It however has years of other films, shows, books, comics, etc to build that up. And of course you have a favorable opinion of the show so it has to be different just because.

Rings of power doesn't have to imply that elves are better than men. They actually are. Halbrand came with the elf so he is seen as something "they" brought. With the reveal of who Halbrand really is it could have also been him influencing events as well. Of course everyone ate it up. That is what hate does. Have you never heard of propaganda before? It doesn't need to be true. It doesn't need to be logical. It just needs to exploit whatever a group thinks on a topic to lead them to a direction.

[Triceron]

The spoiler tag in my last post indicates that this isn't the case with Andor. The empire has been a little oppressive but Andor is an entirely new level. It however has years of other films, shows, books, comics, etc to build that up. And of course you have a favorable opinion of the show so it has to be different just because.

Nope.

It explains itself pretty darn well by showing the rampant oppression of the Empire. The series builds its entire world view based on that premise, which is why it works. This is something that you see more of as the episodes go on, not something they showed at the very start. We tangibly see what the Empire does, how their agents treat people, how the civilians treat the empire's agents. It's not just Andor saying 'I hate the Empire, let's start a rebellion' and the audience taking his word for it. We're seeing his journey through the oppression of the Empire, and that's what makes this work. You don't even have to know anything about Star Wars to understand the politics going on here.

Now let's compare this to RoP. Galadriel says she's hated by everyone there. Okay, how? We rarely get shown any interaction between her and the civilians. She just says it so we are supposed to believe it.

Okay, well let's imagine she is being harassed by civilians off screen. Is it undeserved harassment? Well, actually not quite, because let's not forget that she traded some harsh words with their Queen-regent. So all the hate she may have been getting by the people of Numenor? It could be quite justified since she instigated it.

Having an anti-Elf rally be about Elves taking their jobs? That's completely out of left field, and an example of poor writing. There's no connection between why Numenoreans actually hate the Elves and any example of any Elf actually taking their jobs.

Rings of power doesn't have to imply that elves are better than men. They actually are. Halbrand came with the elf so he is seen as something "they" brought.

Which again, is poor writing. It has nothing to do with Galadriel, which makes it a terrible contrived hate rally.

With the reveal of who Halbrand really is it could have also been him influencing events as well.

You may as well have Halbrand be the reason why the sea monster was in the sea, why the Harfoot dude broke his leg, and why Theo gave the hilt to Adar. It was all his manipulation because reasons :/

It could have been Halbrand, right?

*insert It was Agatha All Along video with Halbrand's face badly photoshopped in place*

[minteK917]

Lmao lets not compare Andor writing to this shit. Andor is actually fucking good.

[Triceron]

Lmao lets not compare Andor writing to this shit. Andor is actually fucking good.

You're right, that's my bad for even bringing it up. I didn't expect anyone to consider Rings of Power's writing to be equal to Andor's and think 'people just like that show and not this one'.

[rhorle]

Which again, is poor writing. It has nothing to do with Galadriel, which makes it a terrible contrived hate rally.

Which is what hate rallies are. Terribly contrived. It really is strange that you've never heard of propaganda before. The show set up dislike of elves prior to the rally. So I'm not sure why you think there was no connection at all or that things were off-screen only. You even dismiss their dislike of elves simply as harsh words to the queen. Gee maybe that arrogance is one of the reasons they have grown to hate the elves?

The rally isn't out of left field. An arrogant elf shows up with a companion. The first in a long while. The elf starts making demands and her companion wants to not earn his status. Why wouldn't they draw a connection when he is only their because of her? What if they bring more friendly humans to replace the "non-faithful"? It doesn't matter if Galadriel instigated anything. Because irrational hate doesn't care about facts. Hence why a skilled statesman can exploit that like we saw. Then you have potential manipulation from Sauron thrown into the mix.

[Triceron]

Which is what hate rallies are. Terribly contrived. It really is strange that you've never heard of propaganda before. The show set up dislike of elves prior to the rally. So I'm not sure why you think there was no connection at all or that things were off-screen only. You even dismiss their dislike of elves simply as harsh words to the queen. Gee maybe that arrogance is one of the reasons they have grown to hate the elves?

The rally isn't out of left field. An arrogant elf shows up with a companion. The first in a long while. The elf starts making demands and her companion wants to not earn his status. Why wouldn't they draw a connection when he is only their because of her? What if they bring more friendly humans to replace the "non-faithful"? It doesn't matter if Galadriel instigated anything. Because irrational hate doesn't care about facts. Hence why a skilled statesman can exploit that like we saw. Then you have potential manipulation from Sauron thrown into the mix.

Thank you for explaining my point.

Andor didn't need to have hate rallies at all to show a hatred of the empire. There are other ways to show fear and hatred and oppression and rebellion without something as obtuse as a contrived hate rally. You agree that it's terribly contrived, you agree that it's irrational hate. This makes the Numenoreans look dumb for being so irrational and by having that same irrationality be so easily manipulated. Make sense?

[InfiniteCharger]

He did not. His "official" retirement was August 31st 2017 and announced a few days after the Rings of Power deal was announced. He was however still in charge when the deal was signed. It was even the estate while Christopher would have been in charge that approached Amazon, and others, to make a pitch for the rights.

"Christopher Tolkien (the Professor’s son) was in charge of the Estate at the time the deal was made in 2017. He passed away three years later in 2020 after production on the show had already begun, and the directorship was passed on to his son, Simon Tolkien."-- https://www.theonering.net/torwp/202...in-the-fandom/

Dude you just love relishing in being wrong. I already posted the facts previously in this thread. The Deal with Amazon was announced in November 2017. Christopher resigned in August. So that was not a few days after the deal was announced. You got your facts backwards.

And since you posted an excerpt from the one ring, here is a better one:

The settlement between Warner Bros. and the Tolkien Estate settled an $80 million lawsuit July 3. Part of the statement the studio released at the time was unusually upbeat for an entity that just paid out big money:

“The parties are pleased that they have amicably resolved this matter and look forward to working together in the future.”

The future mentioned in that statement is this week and beyond, and it was obviously in the works then. According to a U.K. government website, Christopher resigned on Aug. 31. One would expect formal resignations of this nature take time to manage legally, so it also was in the works for some time I suspect. What I wouldn’t give to have been in the room for that passing of the torch.

So in quick fashion, after the seismic change, the estate has sold the television rights for book “The Lord of the Rings.” Warners paid the court dispute so there would be a relationship moving forward and Amazon’s Jeff Bezos rewarded both entities handsomely.

Another important thing to note here, and another piece of the puzzle, is that the television rights to “The Hobbit” and “Lord of the Rings” were NOT sold when J.R.R. Tolkien sold the movie rights in 1969. Those rights were for motion pictures.

....

This explains why the estate was so involved in the Amazon deal; they were selling something. It also explains why Middle-earth Enterprises was absent from the latest news. (Correction: This originally said Tolkien Enterprises, a name previously used that is not correct. The story has been updated.)

But the bigger ramifications of all this are far greater than a multi-season Amazon series. The new leadership of the estate seem much more willing to deal Tolkien properties than Christopher was and this confirms my well placed sources.

https://www.theonering.net/torwp/201...olkien-estate/

UK Government Website stating that Christopher resigned in August 2017:
https://find-and-update.company-info...42430/officers[

We went over this already and you still stubbornly keep sticking to being wrong.

Another articled reiterating the same thing:

Christopher has always had a bit of a iron grip on his father's stories and the only thing he sold was the movie rights back in 1969. Shortly after Tolkien stepped down as director however, the new person in charge of the estate sold the TV rights, which ended up producing the deal between Warner Bros. and Amazon. Obviously, deals of this nature don't happen overnight and it's even possible that there were talks of a TV series ongoing while Christopher Tolkien was still serving as estate director. Yet the final decision was certainly made when Tolkien no longer had any say or control. The timing is undoubtedly notable and at the very least it suggests that the new estate director is much more willing to make deals and sell the rights to Lord of the Rings than Christopher Tolkien.

https://screenrant.com/lord-rings-ch...director-exit/

Both these articles are from November when the Amazon deal was announced.

[rhorle]

Andor didn't need to have hate rallies at all to show a hatred of the empire. There are other ways to show fear and hatred and oppression and rebellion without something as obtuse as a contrived hate rally. You agree that it's terribly contrived, you agree that it's irrational hate. This makes the Numenoreans look dumb for being so irrational and by having that same irrationality be so easily manipulated. Make sense?

Almost as if having dozens of different stories to show that for you makes a huge difference, right? I didn't agree that the writing was contrived. I specifically called hate rallies contrived. Hate rallies are irrational hate. The Numenoreans look dumb because they are being dumb. They are giving into to fears and irrationality to hate a group. Just how it works in real life.

That scene isn't bad writing. It just mirrors how things work in real life and how that stuff gets exploited for propaganda. The guy leading the rally was using the appearance of an elf to stoke the elf-hatred that exists on Numenor. Saying their ships will replace theirs. Their workers, who don't have to sleep, will replace theirs. That the queen is an elf-lover just like her father. Pharazon even calls them a gaggle of mewling children and how silly they are for fearing one elf. He turns their anger into pride to stop the irrational stuff. It sets Pharazon up as a leader and Political faction different from the Faithful (Elendil). Mirel is caught up in the middle of the two and picks the elves and the Faithful. It creates the roots for the later story of Pharazon becoming King and usurping the throne by showing that division exists in Numenor.

It is reductive to make it all about "they took our jobs" and the south park meme when it was just about simple hate and ignorance being exploited by Tamar. The guy that got his butt kicked by Halbrand.

[Triceron]

Almost as if having dozens of different stories to show that for you makes a huge difference, right? I didn't agree that the writing was contrived. I specifically called hate rallies contrived. Hate rallies are irrational hate. The Numenoreans look dumb because they are being dumb. They are giving into to fears and irrationality to hate a group. Just how it works in real life.

And you realize that writers are in full control of how the Numenoreans are being depicted, yes? And that I'm saying I don't agree with the depiction that Numenoreans should be irrational on the particular matter of Elves taking their jobs, yes?

That is writing. The fact they are being dumb is purely a controlled by the writing. The fact they are depicted as giving into fears and irrationality over losing their jobs to Elves is deliberated through writing.

Watsonian vs Doylist. I'm not talking about the hate rally as it exists in universe, I'm talking about it having no real purpose from a writing standpoint.