Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[minteK917]

Lmao lets not compare Andor writing to this shit. Andor is actually fucking good.

[Triceron]

Lmao lets not compare Andor writing to this shit. Andor is actually fucking good.

You're right, that's my bad for even bringing it up. I didn't expect anyone to consider Rings of Power's writing to be equal to Andor's and think 'people just like that show and not this one'.

[rhorle]

Which again, is poor writing. It has nothing to do with Galadriel, which makes it a terrible contrived hate rally.

Which is what hate rallies are. Terribly contrived. It really is strange that you've never heard of propaganda before. The show set up dislike of elves prior to the rally. So I'm not sure why you think there was no connection at all or that things were off-screen only. You even dismiss their dislike of elves simply as harsh words to the queen. Gee maybe that arrogance is one of the reasons they have grown to hate the elves?

The rally isn't out of left field. An arrogant elf shows up with a companion. The first in a long while. The elf starts making demands and her companion wants to not earn his status. Why wouldn't they draw a connection when he is only their because of her? What if they bring more friendly humans to replace the "non-faithful"? It doesn't matter if Galadriel instigated anything. Because irrational hate doesn't care about facts. Hence why a skilled statesman can exploit that like we saw. Then you have potential manipulation from Sauron thrown into the mix.

[Triceron]

Which is what hate rallies are. Terribly contrived. It really is strange that you've never heard of propaganda before. The show set up dislike of elves prior to the rally. So I'm not sure why you think there was no connection at all or that things were off-screen only. You even dismiss their dislike of elves simply as harsh words to the queen. Gee maybe that arrogance is one of the reasons they have grown to hate the elves?

The rally isn't out of left field. An arrogant elf shows up with a companion. The first in a long while. The elf starts making demands and her companion wants to not earn his status. Why wouldn't they draw a connection when he is only their because of her? What if they bring more friendly humans to replace the "non-faithful"? It doesn't matter if Galadriel instigated anything. Because irrational hate doesn't care about facts. Hence why a skilled statesman can exploit that like we saw. Then you have potential manipulation from Sauron thrown into the mix.

Thank you for explaining my point.

Andor didn't need to have hate rallies at all to show a hatred of the empire. There are other ways to show fear and hatred and oppression and rebellion without something as obtuse as a contrived hate rally. You agree that it's terribly contrived, you agree that it's irrational hate. This makes the Numenoreans look dumb for being so irrational and by having that same irrationality be so easily manipulated. Make sense?

[InfiniteCharger]

He did not. His "official" retirement was August 31st 2017 and announced a few days after the Rings of Power deal was announced. He was however still in charge when the deal was signed. It was even the estate while Christopher would have been in charge that approached Amazon, and others, to make a pitch for the rights.

"Christopher Tolkien (the Professor’s son) was in charge of the Estate at the time the deal was made in 2017. He passed away three years later in 2020 after production on the show had already begun, and the directorship was passed on to his son, Simon Tolkien."-- https://www.theonering.net/torwp/202...in-the-fandom/

Dude you just love relishing in being wrong. I already posted the facts previously in this thread. The Deal with Amazon was announced in November 2017. Christopher resigned in August. So that was not a few days after the deal was announced. You got your facts backwards.

And since you posted an excerpt from the one ring, here is a better one:

The settlement between Warner Bros. and the Tolkien Estate settled an $80 million lawsuit July 3. Part of the statement the studio released at the time was unusually upbeat for an entity that just paid out big money:

“The parties are pleased that they have amicably resolved this matter and look forward to working together in the future.”

The future mentioned in that statement is this week and beyond, and it was obviously in the works then. According to a U.K. government website, Christopher resigned on Aug. 31. One would expect formal resignations of this nature take time to manage legally, so it also was in the works for some time I suspect. What I wouldn’t give to have been in the room for that passing of the torch.

So in quick fashion, after the seismic change, the estate has sold the television rights for book “The Lord of the Rings.” Warners paid the court dispute so there would be a relationship moving forward and Amazon’s Jeff Bezos rewarded both entities handsomely.

Another important thing to note here, and another piece of the puzzle, is that the television rights to “The Hobbit” and “Lord of the Rings” were NOT sold when J.R.R. Tolkien sold the movie rights in 1969. Those rights were for motion pictures.

....

This explains why the estate was so involved in the Amazon deal; they were selling something. It also explains why Middle-earth Enterprises was absent from the latest news. (Correction: This originally said Tolkien Enterprises, a name previously used that is not correct. The story has been updated.)

But the bigger ramifications of all this are far greater than a multi-season Amazon series. The new leadership of the estate seem much more willing to deal Tolkien properties than Christopher was and this confirms my well placed sources.

https://www.theonering.net/torwp/201...olkien-estate/

UK Government Website stating that Christopher resigned in August 2017:
https://find-and-update.company-info...42430/officers[

We went over this already and you still stubbornly keep sticking to being wrong.

Another articled reiterating the same thing:

Christopher has always had a bit of a iron grip on his father's stories and the only thing he sold was the movie rights back in 1969. Shortly after Tolkien stepped down as director however, the new person in charge of the estate sold the TV rights, which ended up producing the deal between Warner Bros. and Amazon. Obviously, deals of this nature don't happen overnight and it's even possible that there were talks of a TV series ongoing while Christopher Tolkien was still serving as estate director. Yet the final decision was certainly made when Tolkien no longer had any say or control. The timing is undoubtedly notable and at the very least it suggests that the new estate director is much more willing to make deals and sell the rights to Lord of the Rings than Christopher Tolkien.

https://screenrant.com/lord-rings-ch...director-exit/

Both these articles are from November when the Amazon deal was announced.

[rhorle]

Andor didn't need to have hate rallies at all to show a hatred of the empire. There are other ways to show fear and hatred and oppression and rebellion without something as obtuse as a contrived hate rally. You agree that it's terribly contrived, you agree that it's irrational hate. This makes the Numenoreans look dumb for being so irrational and by having that same irrationality be so easily manipulated. Make sense?

Almost as if having dozens of different stories to show that for you makes a huge difference, right? I didn't agree that the writing was contrived. I specifically called hate rallies contrived. Hate rallies are irrational hate. The Numenoreans look dumb because they are being dumb. They are giving into to fears and irrationality to hate a group. Just how it works in real life.

That scene isn't bad writing. It just mirrors how things work in real life and how that stuff gets exploited for propaganda. The guy leading the rally was using the appearance of an elf to stoke the elf-hatred that exists on Numenor. Saying their ships will replace theirs. Their workers, who don't have to sleep, will replace theirs. That the queen is an elf-lover just like her father. Pharazon even calls them a gaggle of mewling children and how silly they are for fearing one elf. He turns their anger into pride to stop the irrational stuff. It sets Pharazon up as a leader and Political faction different from the Faithful (Elendil). Mirel is caught up in the middle of the two and picks the elves and the Faithful. It creates the roots for the later story of Pharazon becoming King and usurping the throne by showing that division exists in Numenor.

It is reductive to make it all about "they took our jobs" and the south park meme when it was just about simple hate and ignorance being exploited by Tamar. The guy that got his butt kicked by Halbrand.

[Triceron]

Almost as if having dozens of different stories to show that for you makes a huge difference, right? I didn't agree that the writing was contrived. I specifically called hate rallies contrived. Hate rallies are irrational hate. The Numenoreans look dumb because they are being dumb. They are giving into to fears and irrationality to hate a group. Just how it works in real life.

And you realize that writers are in full control of how the Numenoreans are being depicted, yes? And that I'm saying I don't agree with the depiction that Numenoreans should be irrational on the particular matter of Elves taking their jobs, yes?

That is writing. The fact they are being dumb is purely a controlled by the writing. The fact they are depicted as giving into fears and irrationality over losing their jobs to Elves is deliberated through writing.

Watsonian vs Doylist. I'm not talking about the hate rally as it exists in universe, I'm talking about it having no real purpose from a writing standpoint.

[rhorle]

https://www.theonering.net/torwp/201...olkien-estate/

Did you look at that date? November 15th, 2017. Amazon announced it bought the rights on November 14th, 2017. While the official resignation date was August 29th it didn't become known to the general public until after the Amazon deal was announced. I didn't get any facts backwards.


Obviously, deals of this nature don't happen overnight and it's even possible that there were talks of a TV series ongoing while Christopher Tolkien was still serving as estate director. Yet the final decision was certainly made when Tolkien no longer had any say or control.

Your other article even states they don't know when things were finalized and that they are speculating that it happened after August 31st because of Christopher's views. These are not the smoking gun you think they are. It still doesn't change that Christopher was in charge when they approached companies to buy the rights. That he would have helped shape the deal even if he wasn't in charge when it was signed. I don't think you even know what context the discussion has and just saw what you thought was an easy way to take a pot shot at me.

- - - Updated - - -

That is writing. The fact they are being dumb is purely a controlled by the writing. The fact they are depicted as giving into fears and irrationality over losing their jobs to Elves is deliberated through writing.

Being dumb is the point. Lmao. Of course they could have written them differently but they chose to show case how hatred can lead to dumb arguments and how a skilled statesman can turn that around. It wasn't about losing their jobs. It was about the Elves coming back to Numenor. Exerting control and influence hence why they called the Queen-Reagent and King elf lovers.

Why shouldn't the writers have included it in the show? How else are they supposed to show case how the factions of Numenor? A hate rally sets it up perfectly without having to devote an entire episode to politics. That one scene captures the division of factions, the hatred even if irrational, and allows the future seasons a building block to go off of. I seem to remember you wanting things to be more connected and set up before just popping in. They have done that for future seasons.

[Triceron]

Being dumb is the point. Lmao. Of course they could have written them differently but they chose to show case how hatred can lead to dumb arguments and how a skilled statesman can turn that around.

Which is the point I've been making. Again, you aren't actually disagreeing with my point. You're reinforcing it while trying to argue it as though I don't know the conditions of why they wanted to write it the way they did. I know why, and I am pointing out that it is poor writing because there are better ways to do it, and I've made plenty of examples to other shows which do it far better without making a group of people act irrationally and dumb in universe

Why shouldn't the writers have included it in the show?

Because we're still meant to relate to the Numenoreans, and portraying their culture as being prone to irrationality undermines their cultural reputation. It should be quite simple to understand.

There are ways to make the rally justifiable and not irrational. Giving a motivation that is incited by something Galadriel actually said would suffice. If 'Hate rallies are irrational', then don't make it a hate rally. If written any other way, it could have simply been a rally without the obvious hate speech, and hitting on an actual threat that Galadriel might be posing to their culture and society with what she's actually said. It would play in to her lack of diplomacy fueling the fires of an already xenophobic society, rather than them literally making a stretch to imply the human they harassed and got their asses kicked by is a result of an Elf plot to take all their jobs.

Like Andor showing the rebels inciting things the Empire already is doing to fuel the fires of rebellion. You don't need a hate rally for this when Galadriel was already antagonistic towards the Numenoreans. The hate rally was a poor writing choice.

If your answer to this is 'people like that show and not this one' then you could consider this is one of the reasons why.

[rhorle]

Which is the point I've been making. Again, you aren't actually disagreeing with my point. You're reinforcing it while trying to argue it as though I don't know the conditions of why they wanted to write it the way they did. I know why, and I am pointing out that it is poor writing because there are better ways to do it, and I've made plenty of examples to other shows which do it far better without making a group of people act irrationally and dumb in universe

You can't make irrational hatred appear smart because it is by its own properties a dumb thing. It isn't bad writing to showcase something for exactly what it is. A different approach isn't the same as bad writing. You not liking the approach they took doesn't mean it is bad writing. They couldn't have done the same as Andor because there is no Empire in Tolkien to blame. There was no small oppression to use the same hatred for their own means. There were not supporting shows, films, books, comics, to draw upon for "what the empire does".

Hatred based on ethnicity isn't rational and nothing can make it rational. That is the whole point of Pharazon turning it around. It wasn't based on fact. Wasn't based on rational thinking. He took their irrational thoughts and applied it to their own history and national pride. That is the whole point of propaganda. If you watch the scene again it actually has nothing to do with Halbrand. The only link is the guy that got his butt kicked is the one stoke anger. It was simply about superior elves returning to Numenor.

[Triceron]

You can't make irrational hatred appear smart

And my argument is that they shouldn't have made their hatred irrational. They should have made it smart and justifiable.

Why is this concept so hard for you to understand? You already acknowledge 'if it were written another way', and that is exactly what I'm talking about.

Hatred based on ethnicity isn't rational and nothing can make it rational.

And it doesn't need to be hatred based on ethnicity. It can be rational fear of a tangible threat that is associated with a particular race, and the threat doesn't have to be predicated on blind, irrational hate. It's only irrational if any hatred has no reason to exist other than for the sake of prejudice, like we see in Rings of Power right now. And Elves are a distinct race, not an ethnicity.

This is exactly why Orcs and Goblins are generally portrayed as villainous creatures in the fiction. Their disdain isn't irrational at all, it is tangible because Orcs and Goblins are a real threat. Same can be said of the Spiders of Mirkwood, or Wargs. It's a completely understandable concept. You don't need a hate rally to show how much the Southlanders fear and hate the Orcs.

You not liking the approach they took doesn't mean it is bad writing.

I'm talking about my opinion of the writing in a Doylist point of view, while you're arguing in-universe Watsonian.
You understand the meanings of these definitions, yes?

I am not criticizing the in-universe writing at all here, which is what you're trying to defend. THere's literally nothing for you to argue here if you're saying the scenes were well written with purpose, because I am not criticizing how those scenes were written. If you thought it made sense is merely you disagreeing (an opinion you have not expressed here, mind you), you can merely express that opinion and I will express my disagreement with yours. At no point is anything here actually factual to what you want to prove or disprove.

If you watch the scene again it actually has nothing to do with Halbrand. The only link is the guy that got his butt kicked is the one stoke anger. It was simply about superior elves returning to Numenor.

It has everything to do with Halbrand, because if he stayed on good terms with him he may not have started the rally at all. The whole incident is spurred on because Halbrand was an asshole. The rally is a direct result of his actions, from trying to steal the guild pin to beating them up. It would then make more sense if they were actually mad at Halbrand rather than the Elf.

[rhorle]

And my argument is that they shouldn't have made their hatred irrational. They should have made it smart and justifiable.

They can't. Hatred like that isn't about being smart of justifiable. I'm not failing to understand anything you are saying. I just don't agree with you. Don't confuse the two when you've been behaving so civilly. Just put me back on ignore before you do that.

There is no tangible threat the elves would pose to Numenor. There wasn't one in the Tolkien Canon. It was about resenment and irrationality that was eventually used by Sauron for his own goals. It would have succeded as well if the God didn't turn the world round and destroy the Numenoreans and their home island. Of course you don't need a hate rally to show why Orcs are to be feared and hated. Because they are an actual threat. The Elves are not but that doesn't stop the insecurities of men making them one. Things that are not born from logic but irrationality.

I'm not defending in-universe writing because nothing is written in-universe. Don't try to apply high-level concepts this late in the argument because you can't make your point otherwise. If there is nothing for me to argue here then why do you keep responding and arguing with me? You also said the scenes were poor writing. What is the vast difference between poor and bad?

You aren't even using Watsonian and Doylist correctly. As nothing changes about the writing based on point of view a character or point of view of the writer.

[Triceron]

They can't. Hatred like that isn't about being smart of justifiable.

Sure it is. Would you consider the Fellowship to be irrationally racist because they hate and kill Goblins and Orcs?

We're talking about a fictional universe where Good and Evil are concepts that can manifest into real things. There are plenty of ways to depict hatred as a rational motivation for good or evil that makes sense. Galadriel's own hatred of Sauron and his servants is rational, wouldn't you agree? This hatred extends to all of his servants, all the Orcs, all the men who serve him.

[rhorle]

Sure it is. Would you consider the Fellowship to be irrationally racist because they hate and kill Goblins and Orcs?

Again. Those are real threats. The Elves are not a real threat to Numenor. Even Tolkien has the Numenoreans irrational in this regard. I'm not sure why you are choosing this hill to die on when even Tolkien Canon doesn't back you up. Just settle on you not liking the depiction instead of trying to label it poor writing or anything else you can think of.

[minteK917]

Its easy to settle, they didnt use the actual more logical reason why Numenoreans hate the elves, people have to google it because the show runner are dumb shit, which is why if you google it, its a bunch of resent article having to literally explain why THEY HATE ELVES, this aint fucking dark souls, its a tv show. Not having immortality and not being allowed to live in Valindor is a much bigger fucking deal then anything. It what they actually cared about, so much so that its also the reason for their downfall. You dont need to bring other random shit into this. Their growing hatered for the elves after Elros died made sense and making it about any other thing then their fear of death literally makes their downfall pointless. Im sure there will be an Armada made because Sauron promise attacking the undying lands means they get their job back too. WHO CARES ABOUT BEING IMMORTAL.

News flash it has to be about their fear of death, they literally are gona make a fleet to attack heaven and a god is gona fucking nuke their country and their fleet into the bottom of the sea. Its gona be pretty hard to reason why these people are gona make a fucking fleet to destroy sacred stuff just because elves are kinda meanies and they dont like them. Being mad at godlike beings that you were created as a lesser being is a more fucking rational thing to be upset about, And once they are told they could simply take their place in fucking heaven and immortality by force, Sounds like pretty human thing to relate to.

Imagine on earth right now we discover heaven exist but only the people from Sweden can go. Everyones told we can take heaven by force from Sweden. Sweden is fucking toast and its not irrational.

[Triceron]

Again. Those are real threats. The Elves are not a real threat to Numenor. Even Tolkien has the Numenoreans irrational in this regard. I'm not sure why you are choosing this hill to die on when even Tolkien Canon doesn't back you up. Just settle on you not liking the depiction instead of trying to label it poor writing or anything else you can think of.

Because my arguments aren't against what Tolkien wrote, and isn't about how the show depicted the Hate Rally scene. It's about their choice to make it a hate rally about Elves taking their jobs. It's about making a big deal out of something that isn't a real threat at all. It's about giving Pharazon a moment that is predicated on nonsense.

And there's no hill to die on, I've been saying the same thing over and over again to someone who seems to be too ignorant or stupid to understand my very basic point, lol. It's not my problem if you keep arguing things out of context. My problem is not how or why they executed their plot, my problem is the plot they chose made the Numenoreans look dumb.

And as minteK917 said above, their jealousy of the Elves is quite understandable when immortality and Valinor (basically Heaven) are manifested reality, not just intangible concepts. And that could simply be exactly as presented - jealousy and envy, rather than irrational hate. It's the difference between say Boromir being misguided by his intentions to use the One Ring and being envious that it was given to Frodo to bear, and Boromir merely hating Frodo because he's a filthy halfling who 'took his job'.

[rhorle]

Because my arguments aren't against what Tolkien wrote, and isn't about how the show depicted the Hate Rally scene. It's about their choice to make it a hate rally about Elves taking their jobs. It's about making a big deal out of something that isn't a real threat at all. It's about giving Pharazon a moment that is predicated on nonsense.

So it isn't about the writing but it is poor writing at the same time? It making a big deal out of something that isn't a threat is what makes the scene real. With out it there is no gusto of a statesman working the crowd. There is no division of for and against factions. Your arguments are against what Tolkien wrote because the Elves posied no threat to Numenor. It was their growing resentment and jealous over only the elves being able to be Immortal even though they were capable of going to the undying lands.

Jealousy and Envy breed irrational hatred. Again have you no knowledge of propaganda and its use in the real world? If you are going to call me ignorant and stupid simply because I don't grovel to your point of view then but me back on ignore. There is not reason for you to turn irrational and forgo civility.

[Triceron]

So it isn't about the writing but it is poor writing at the same time? .

The definition of 'poor writing' is not only applicable to how a scene was written. It can also apply to the decisions to choose that scene in the first place, and this is how I'm applying its use.

Again have you no knowledge of propaganda and its use in the real world?

Rings of Power isn't set in the real world. I don't have to call you anything, you already display plenty of ignorance like with this very statement. Your argument is that 'they can't' write anything other than an irrational hatred for Elves, and then made parallels to how propaganda works in real life. The Ring of Power writers weren't pigeonholed into only one course of action in depicting the Numenoreans, especially when they already changed Tolkien's canonical reasons for why they hate Elves.

If you are going to call me ignorant and stupid simply because I don't grovel to your point of view then but me back on ignore.

I call you out on taking my statements out of context and being intentionally obtuse in doing so. If you aren't denying it then am I really to blame here? We both know that's exactly what you're doing, you're just not admitting to it is all. I'm not even the one instigating these discussions, you are. If you don't want me responding do you at all, maybe you should stop engaging in my replies to other people? You poked the hornets nest dude, no reason to bitch to me about being stung.

[minteK917]

So it isn't about the writing but it is poor writing at the same time? It making a big deal out of something that isn't a threat is what makes the scene real. With out it there is no gusto of a statesman working the crowd. There is no division of for and against factions. Your arguments are against what Tolkien wrote because the Elves posied no threat to Numenor. It was their growing resentment and jealous over only the elves being able to be Immortal even though they were capable of going to the undying lands.

Jealousy and Envy breed irrational hatred. Again have you no knowledge of propaganda and its use in the real world? If you are going to call me ignorant and stupid simply because I don't grovel to your point of view then but me back on ignore. There is not reason for you to turn irrational and forgo civility.

That would be fine if the SHOW actually displayed why the hatered is even there. It is not, again unless you read books or lores, you wouldnt even know yourself. Thats the fucking problem. Google why does numenour hates elves. Seems to be a fucking popular topic. Because the show doesent actually tells the viewers. The king doesent need to hate elves for any other reason, HES GONA MAKE A FUCKING FLEET TO TAKE IMMORTALITY BY FORCE TO AVOID HIS OWN DEATH AND HIS COUNTRY WILL BE DESTROYED. They can have pointless rallies about hating elves because they left the toilet seats up, BUT SHOW THE FUCKING ROOT OF THE HATERED FIRST. Its not a conspiracy theory the numenors are going on about, THEY ARE MORTAL AND THEY CANNOT BE IN VALINDOR. Those are real things that exist in their world, the root of their downfall is not irrational.

[Triceron]

That would be fine if the SHOW actually displayed why the hatered is even there. It is not, again unless you read books or lores, you wouldnt even know yourself. Thats the fucking problem. Google why does numenour hates elves. Seems to be a fucking popular topic. Because the show doesent actually tells the viewers. The king doesent need to hate elves for any other reason, HES GONA MAKE A FUCKING FLEET TO TAKE IMMORTALITY BY FORCE TO AVOID HIS OWN DEATH AND HIS COUNTRY WILL BE DESTROYED. They can have pointless rallies about hating elves because they left the toilet seats up, BUT SHOW THE FUCKING ROOT OF THE HATERED FIRST.

By the way the show is headed, the Numenoreans might really end up fighting with the Elves over their jobs.