1. #7461
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And if the people were that easily manipulated by the lie, one where it'a obvious the Elf didn't even do anything to instigate the matter, then everyone looks dumb for playing into complete nonsense. There'a no actual logical link to Elves taking anyone's job, it's not even remotely believable. That is the whole point.
    Hate doesn't have to be believable in order to be exploited. It doesn't have to be logical. Andor is using the same principle just for the side of "good". Andor spoilers: It is stated the Rebellion wants the Empire to over react to exploit people's hatred of that over reaction. All so they can get more people supporting their cause even though the rebels caused the crackdown in the first place

    The concept and the writing isn't bad on Rings of Power in this regard. It is the acceptance of it that seems to be because one show is liked while the other is not.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #7462
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The concept and the writing isn't bad on Rings of Power in this regard. It is the acceptance of it that seems to be because one show is liked while the other is not.
    It's one of the most criticized points for being avsolutely contrived and nonsensical.

    I don't agree with you in thinking the anti-elf sentiments of Numenoreans (or even Southlanders for that matter) was well written.

    The difference with Andor is that the show makes it clear what the Empire stands for and shows its ruthless oppressive tyrannical state and how it affects people's lives and brings about fear. We have none of this related to the viewer in how Elves do the same to Numenoreans. These people have lived entire generations without ever having even seen an Elf, so their hatred is coming from naivete and ignorance rather than a lived-through experience like we have in Andor. The Numenorean's hate is not tangible, and is what makes it unbelievable.

    It's like they rushed through am important step to set up what they wanted to pay off. And they could have easily done so with Galadriel saying something at her first meeting with Miriel that could be interpreted or implied that Elves are better than men, and that Elves could do a better job. Then they could show that message being circulated through the town, culminating to this rally. But nope, the setup comes from Halbrand whupping ass and getting caught and the Numenoreans having nothing to cry about except blame it on the Elves. And everyone around them ate it up.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-27 at 03:59 PM.

  3. #7463
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    These people have lived entire generations without ever having even seen an Elf, so their hatred is coming from naivete and ignorance rather than a lived-through experience like we have in Andor.
    The spoiler tag in my last post indicates that this isn't the case with Andor. The empire has been a little oppressive but Andor is an entirely new level. It however has years of other films, shows, books, comics, etc to build that up. And of course you have a favorable opinion of the show so it has to be different just because.

    Rings of power doesn't have to imply that elves are better than men. They actually are. Halbrand came with the elf so he is seen as something "they" brought. With the reveal of who Halbrand really is it could have also been him influencing events as well. Of course everyone ate it up. That is what hate does. Have you never heard of propaganda before? It doesn't need to be true. It doesn't need to be logical. It just needs to exploit whatever a group thinks on a topic to lead them to a direction.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  4. #7464
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The spoiler tag in my last post indicates that this isn't the case with Andor. The empire has been a little oppressive but Andor is an entirely new level. It however has years of other films, shows, books, comics, etc to build that up. And of course you have a favorable opinion of the show so it has to be different just because.
    Nope.

    It explains itself pretty darn well by showing the rampant oppression of the Empire. The series builds its entire world view based on that premise, which is why it works. This is something that you see more of as the episodes go on, not something they showed at the very start. We tangibly see what the Empire does, how their agents treat people, how the civilians treat the empire's agents. It's not just Andor saying 'I hate the Empire, let's start a rebellion' and the audience taking his word for it. We're seeing his journey through the oppression of the Empire, and that's what makes this work. You don't even have to know anything about Star Wars to understand the politics going on here.

    Now let's compare this to RoP. Galadriel says she's hated by everyone there. Okay, how? We rarely get shown any interaction between her and the civilians. She just says it so we are supposed to believe it.

    Okay, well let's imagine she is being harassed by civilians off screen. Is it undeserved harassment? Well, actually not quite, because let's not forget that she traded some harsh words with their Queen-regent. So all the hate she may have been getting by the people of Numenor? It could be quite justified since she instigated it.

    Having an anti-Elf rally be about Elves taking their jobs? That's completely out of left field, and an example of poor writing. There's no connection between why Numenoreans actually hate the Elves and any example of any Elf actually taking their jobs.

    Rings of power doesn't have to imply that elves are better than men. They actually are. Halbrand came with the elf so he is seen as something "they" brought.
    Which again, is poor writing. It has nothing to do with Galadriel, which makes it a terrible contrived hate rally.

    With the reveal of who Halbrand really is it could have also been him influencing events as well.
    You may as well have Halbrand be the reason why the sea monster was in the sea, why the Harfoot dude broke his leg, and why Theo gave the hilt to Adar. It was all his manipulation because reasons :/

    It could have been Halbrand, right?

    *insert It was Agatha All Along video with Halbrand's face badly photoshopped in place*
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-27 at 04:29 PM.

  5. #7465
    Lmao lets not compare Andor writing to this shit. Andor is actually fucking good.

  6. #7466
    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    Lmao lets not compare Andor writing to this shit. Andor is actually fucking good.
    You're right, that's my bad for even bringing it up. I didn't expect anyone to consider Rings of Power's writing to be equal to Andor's and think 'people just like that show and not this one'.

  7. #7467
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Which again, is poor writing. It has nothing to do with Galadriel, which makes it a terrible contrived hate rally.
    Which is what hate rallies are. Terribly contrived. It really is strange that you've never heard of propaganda before. The show set up dislike of elves prior to the rally. So I'm not sure why you think there was no connection at all or that things were off-screen only. You even dismiss their dislike of elves simply as harsh words to the queen. Gee maybe that arrogance is one of the reasons they have grown to hate the elves?

    The rally isn't out of left field. An arrogant elf shows up with a companion. The first in a long while. The elf starts making demands and her companion wants to not earn his status. Why wouldn't they draw a connection when he is only their because of her? What if they bring more friendly humans to replace the "non-faithful"? It doesn't matter if Galadriel instigated anything. Because irrational hate doesn't care about facts. Hence why a skilled statesman can exploit that like we saw. Then you have potential manipulation from Sauron thrown into the mix.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  8. #7468
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which is what hate rallies are. Terribly contrived. It really is strange that you've never heard of propaganda before. The show set up dislike of elves prior to the rally. So I'm not sure why you think there was no connection at all or that things were off-screen only. You even dismiss their dislike of elves simply as harsh words to the queen. Gee maybe that arrogance is one of the reasons they have grown to hate the elves?

    The rally isn't out of left field. An arrogant elf shows up with a companion. The first in a long while. The elf starts making demands and her companion wants to not earn his status. Why wouldn't they draw a connection when he is only their because of her? What if they bring more friendly humans to replace the "non-faithful"? It doesn't matter if Galadriel instigated anything. Because irrational hate doesn't care about facts. Hence why a skilled statesman can exploit that like we saw. Then you have potential manipulation from Sauron thrown into the mix.
    Thank you for explaining my point.

    Andor didn't need to have hate rallies at all to show a hatred of the empire. There are other ways to show fear and hatred and oppression and rebellion without something as obtuse as a contrived hate rally. You agree that it's terribly contrived, you agree that it's irrational hate. This makes the Numenoreans look dumb for being so irrational and by having that same irrationality be so easily manipulated. Make sense?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-27 at 06:08 PM.

  9. #7469
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    He did not. His "official" retirement was August 31st 2017 and announced a few days after the Rings of Power deal was announced. He was however still in charge when the deal was signed. It was even the estate while Christopher would have been in charge that approached Amazon, and others, to make a pitch for the rights.

    "Christopher Tolkien (the Professor’s son) was in charge of the Estate at the time the deal was made in 2017. He passed away three years later in 2020 after production on the show had already begun, and the directorship was passed on to his son, Simon Tolkien."-- https://www.theonering.net/torwp/202...in-the-fandom/
    Dude you just love relishing in being wrong. I already posted the facts previously in this thread. The Deal with Amazon was announced in November 2017. Christopher resigned in August. So that was not a few days after the deal was announced. You got your facts backwards.

    And since you posted an excerpt from the one ring, here is a better one:

    The settlement between Warner Bros. and the Tolkien Estate settled an $80 million lawsuit July 3. Part of the statement the studio released at the time was unusually upbeat for an entity that just paid out big money:

    “The parties are pleased that they have amicably resolved this matter and look forward to working together in the future.”

    The future mentioned in that statement is this week and beyond, and it was obviously in the works then. According to a U.K. government website, Christopher resigned on Aug. 31. One would expect formal resignations of this nature take time to manage legally, so it also was in the works for some time I suspect. What I wouldn’t give to have been in the room for that passing of the torch.

    So in quick fashion, after the seismic change, the estate has sold the television rights for book “The Lord of the Rings.” Warners paid the court dispute so there would be a relationship moving forward and Amazon’s Jeff Bezos rewarded both entities handsomely.

    Another important thing to note here, and another piece of the puzzle, is that the television rights to “The Hobbit” and “Lord of the Rings” were NOT sold when J.R.R. Tolkien sold the movie rights in 1969. Those rights were for motion pictures.

    ....

    This explains why the estate was so involved in the Amazon deal; they were selling something. It also explains why Middle-earth Enterprises was absent from the latest news. (Correction: This originally said Tolkien Enterprises, a name previously used that is not correct. The story has been updated.)

    But the bigger ramifications of all this are far greater than a multi-season Amazon series. The new leadership of the estate seem much more willing to deal Tolkien properties than Christopher was and this confirms my well placed sources.
    https://www.theonering.net/torwp/201...olkien-estate/

    UK Government Website stating that Christopher resigned in August 2017:
    https://find-and-update.company-info...42430/officers[

    We went over this already and you still stubbornly keep sticking to being wrong.

    Another articled reiterating the same thing:
    Christopher has always had a bit of a iron grip on his father's stories and the only thing he sold was the movie rights back in 1969. Shortly after Tolkien stepped down as director however, the new person in charge of the estate sold the TV rights, which ended up producing the deal between Warner Bros. and Amazon. Obviously, deals of this nature don't happen overnight and it's even possible that there were talks of a TV series ongoing while Christopher Tolkien was still serving as estate director. Yet the final decision was certainly made when Tolkien no longer had any say or control. The timing is undoubtedly notable and at the very least it suggests that the new estate director is much more willing to make deals and sell the rights to Lord of the Rings than Christopher Tolkien.
    https://screenrant.com/lord-rings-ch...director-exit/

    Both these articles are from November when the Amazon deal was announced.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-10-27 at 06:33 PM.

  10. #7470
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Andor didn't need to have hate rallies at all to show a hatred of the empire. There are other ways to show fear and hatred and oppression and rebellion without something as obtuse as a contrived hate rally. You agree that it's terribly contrived, you agree that it's irrational hate. This makes the Numenoreans look dumb for being so irrational and by having that same irrationality be so easily manipulated. Make sense?
    Almost as if having dozens of different stories to show that for you makes a huge difference, right? I didn't agree that the writing was contrived. I specifically called hate rallies contrived. Hate rallies are irrational hate. The Numenoreans look dumb because they are being dumb. They are giving into to fears and irrationality to hate a group. Just how it works in real life.

    That scene isn't bad writing. It just mirrors how things work in real life and how that stuff gets exploited for propaganda. The guy leading the rally was using the appearance of an elf to stoke the elf-hatred that exists on Numenor. Saying their ships will replace theirs. Their workers, who don't have to sleep, will replace theirs. That the queen is an elf-lover just like her father. Pharazon even calls them a gaggle of mewling children and how silly they are for fearing one elf. He turns their anger into pride to stop the irrational stuff. It sets Pharazon up as a leader and Political faction different from the Faithful (Elendil). Mirel is caught up in the middle of the two and picks the elves and the Faithful. It creates the roots for the later story of Pharazon becoming King and usurping the throne by showing that division exists in Numenor.

    It is reductive to make it all about "they took our jobs" and the south park meme when it was just about simple hate and ignorance being exploited by Tamar. The guy that got his butt kicked by Halbrand.
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  11. #7471
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Almost as if having dozens of different stories to show that for you makes a huge difference, right? I didn't agree that the writing was contrived. I specifically called hate rallies contrived. Hate rallies are irrational hate. The Numenoreans look dumb because they are being dumb. They are giving into to fears and irrationality to hate a group. Just how it works in real life.
    And you realize that writers are in full control of how the Numenoreans are being depicted, yes? And that I'm saying I don't agree with the depiction that Numenoreans should be irrational on the particular matter of Elves taking their jobs, yes?

    That is writing. The fact they are being dumb is purely a controlled by the writing. The fact they are depicted as giving into fears and irrationality over losing their jobs to Elves is deliberated through writing.

    Watsonian vs Doylist. I'm not talking about the hate rally as it exists in universe, I'm talking about it having no real purpose from a writing standpoint.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-27 at 07:03 PM.

  12. #7472
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Did you look at that date? November 15th, 2017. Amazon announced it bought the rights on November 14th, 2017. While the official resignation date was August 29th it didn't become known to the general public until after the Amazon deal was announced. I didn't get any facts backwards.


    Obviously, deals of this nature don't happen overnight and it's even possible that there were talks of a TV series ongoing while Christopher Tolkien was still serving as estate director. Yet the final decision was certainly made when Tolkien no longer had any say or control.


    Your other article even states they don't know when things were finalized and that they are speculating that it happened after August 31st because of Christopher's views. These are not the smoking gun you think they are. It still doesn't change that Christopher was in charge when they approached companies to buy the rights. That he would have helped shape the deal even if he wasn't in charge when it was signed. I don't think you even know what context the discussion has and just saw what you thought was an easy way to take a pot shot at me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That is writing. The fact they are being dumb is purely a controlled by the writing. The fact they are depicted as giving into fears and irrationality over losing their jobs to Elves is deliberated through writing.
    Being dumb is the point. Lmao. Of course they could have written them differently but they chose to show case how hatred can lead to dumb arguments and how a skilled statesman can turn that around. It wasn't about losing their jobs. It was about the Elves coming back to Numenor. Exerting control and influence hence why they called the Queen-Reagent and King elf lovers.

    Why shouldn't the writers have included it in the show? How else are they supposed to show case how the factions of Numenor? A hate rally sets it up perfectly without having to devote an entire episode to politics. That one scene captures the division of factions, the hatred even if irrational, and allows the future seasons a building block to go off of. I seem to remember you wanting things to be more connected and set up before just popping in. They have done that for future seasons.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  13. #7473
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Being dumb is the point. Lmao. Of course they could have written them differently but they chose to show case how hatred can lead to dumb arguments and how a skilled statesman can turn that around.
    Which is the point I've been making. Again, you aren't actually disagreeing with my point. You're reinforcing it while trying to argue it as though I don't know the conditions of why they wanted to write it the way they did. I know why, and I am pointing out that it is poor writing because there are better ways to do it, and I've made plenty of examples to other shows which do it far better without making a group of people act irrationally and dumb in universe

    Why shouldn't the writers have included it in the show?
    Because we're still meant to relate to the Numenoreans, and portraying their culture as being prone to irrationality undermines their cultural reputation. It should be quite simple to understand.

    There are ways to make the rally justifiable and not irrational. Giving a motivation that is incited by something Galadriel actually said would suffice. If 'Hate rallies are irrational', then don't make it a hate rally. If written any other way, it could have simply been a rally without the obvious hate speech, and hitting on an actual threat that Galadriel might be posing to their culture and society with what she's actually said. It would play in to her lack of diplomacy fueling the fires of an already xenophobic society, rather than them literally making a stretch to imply the human they harassed and got their asses kicked by is a result of an Elf plot to take all their jobs.

    Like Andor showing the rebels inciting things the Empire already is doing to fuel the fires of rebellion. You don't need a hate rally for this when Galadriel was already antagonistic towards the Numenoreans. The hate rally was a poor writing choice.

    If your answer to this is 'people like that show and not this one' then you could consider this is one of the reasons why.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-27 at 07:16 PM.

  14. #7474
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Which is the point I've been making. Again, you aren't actually disagreeing with my point. You're reinforcing it while trying to argue it as though I don't know the conditions of why they wanted to write it the way they did. I know why, and I am pointing out that it is poor writing because there are better ways to do it, and I've made plenty of examples to other shows which do it far better without making a group of people act irrationally and dumb in universe
    You can't make irrational hatred appear smart because it is by its own properties a dumb thing. It isn't bad writing to showcase something for exactly what it is. A different approach isn't the same as bad writing. You not liking the approach they took doesn't mean it is bad writing. They couldn't have done the same as Andor because there is no Empire in Tolkien to blame. There was no small oppression to use the same hatred for their own means. There were not supporting shows, films, books, comics, to draw upon for "what the empire does".

    Hatred based on ethnicity isn't rational and nothing can make it rational. That is the whole point of Pharazon turning it around. It wasn't based on fact. Wasn't based on rational thinking. He took their irrational thoughts and applied it to their own history and national pride. That is the whole point of propaganda. If you watch the scene again it actually has nothing to do with Halbrand. The only link is the guy that got his butt kicked is the one stoke anger. It was simply about superior elves returning to Numenor.
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  15. #7475
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You can't make irrational hatred appear smart
    And my argument is that they shouldn't have made their hatred irrational. They should have made it smart and justifiable.

    Why is this concept so hard for you to understand? You already acknowledge 'if it were written another way', and that is exactly what I'm talking about.

    Hatred based on ethnicity isn't rational and nothing can make it rational.
    And it doesn't need to be hatred based on ethnicity. It can be rational fear of a tangible threat that is associated with a particular race, and the threat doesn't have to be predicated on blind, irrational hate. It's only irrational if any hatred has no reason to exist other than for the sake of prejudice, like we see in Rings of Power right now. And Elves are a distinct race, not an ethnicity.

    This is exactly why Orcs and Goblins are generally portrayed as villainous creatures in the fiction. Their disdain isn't irrational at all, it is tangible because Orcs and Goblins are a real threat. Same can be said of the Spiders of Mirkwood, or Wargs. It's a completely understandable concept. You don't need a hate rally to show how much the Southlanders fear and hate the Orcs.

    You not liking the approach they took doesn't mean it is bad writing.
    I'm talking about my opinion of the writing in a Doylist point of view, while you're arguing in-universe Watsonian.
    You understand the meanings of these definitions, yes?

    I am not criticizing the in-universe writing at all here, which is what you're trying to defend. THere's literally nothing for you to argue here if you're saying the scenes were well written with purpose, because I am not criticizing how those scenes were written. If you thought it made sense is merely you disagreeing (an opinion you have not expressed here, mind you), you can merely express that opinion and I will express my disagreement with yours. At no point is anything here actually factual to what you want to prove or disprove.

    If you watch the scene again it actually has nothing to do with Halbrand. The only link is the guy that got his butt kicked is the one stoke anger. It was simply about superior elves returning to Numenor.
    It has everything to do with Halbrand, because if he stayed on good terms with him he may not have started the rally at all. The whole incident is spurred on because Halbrand was an asshole. The rally is a direct result of his actions, from trying to steal the guild pin to beating them up. It would then make more sense if they were actually mad at Halbrand rather than the Elf.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-27 at 08:05 PM.

  16. #7476
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And my argument is that they shouldn't have made their hatred irrational. They should have made it smart and justifiable.
    They can't. Hatred like that isn't about being smart of justifiable. I'm not failing to understand anything you are saying. I just don't agree with you. Don't confuse the two when you've been behaving so civilly. Just put me back on ignore before you do that.

    There is no tangible threat the elves would pose to Numenor. There wasn't one in the Tolkien Canon. It was about resenment and irrationality that was eventually used by Sauron for his own goals. It would have succeded as well if the God didn't turn the world round and destroy the Numenoreans and their home island. Of course you don't need a hate rally to show why Orcs are to be feared and hated. Because they are an actual threat. The Elves are not but that doesn't stop the insecurities of men making them one. Things that are not born from logic but irrationality.

    I'm not defending in-universe writing because nothing is written in-universe. Don't try to apply high-level concepts this late in the argument because you can't make your point otherwise. If there is nothing for me to argue here then why do you keep responding and arguing with me? You also said the scenes were poor writing. What is the vast difference between poor and bad?

    You aren't even using Watsonian and Doylist correctly. As nothing changes about the writing based on point of view a character or point of view of the writer.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-10-27 at 08:12 PM.
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  17. #7477
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They can't. Hatred like that isn't about being smart of justifiable.
    Sure it is. Would you consider the Fellowship to be irrationally racist because they hate and kill Goblins and Orcs?

    We're talking about a fictional universe where Good and Evil are concepts that can manifest into real things. There are plenty of ways to depict hatred as a rational motivation for good or evil that makes sense. Galadriel's own hatred of Sauron and his servants is rational, wouldn't you agree? This hatred extends to all of his servants, all the Orcs, all the men who serve him.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-27 at 08:23 PM.

  18. #7478
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Sure it is. Would you consider the Fellowship to be irrationally racist because they hate and kill Goblins and Orcs?
    Again. Those are real threats. The Elves are not a real threat to Numenor. Even Tolkien has the Numenoreans irrational in this regard. I'm not sure why you are choosing this hill to die on when even Tolkien Canon doesn't back you up. Just settle on you not liking the depiction instead of trying to label it poor writing or anything else you can think of.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-10-27 at 08:30 PM.
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  19. #7479
    Its easy to settle, they didnt use the actual more logical reason why Numenoreans hate the elves, people have to google it because the show runner are dumb shit, which is why if you google it, its a bunch of resent article having to literally explain why THEY HATE ELVES, this aint fucking dark souls, its a tv show. Not having immortality and not being allowed to live in Valindor is a much bigger fucking deal then anything. It what they actually cared about, so much so that its also the reason for their downfall. You dont need to bring other random shit into this. Their growing hatered for the elves after Elros died made sense and making it about any other thing then their fear of death literally makes their downfall pointless. Im sure there will be an Armada made because Sauron promise attacking the undying lands means they get their job back too. WHO CARES ABOUT BEING IMMORTAL.

    News flash it has to be about their fear of death, they literally are gona make a fleet to attack heaven and a god is gona fucking nuke their country and their fleet into the bottom of the sea. Its gona be pretty hard to reason why these people are gona make a fucking fleet to destroy sacred stuff just because elves are kinda meanies and they dont like them. Being mad at godlike beings that you were created as a lesser being is a more fucking rational thing to be upset about, And once they are told they could simply take their place in fucking heaven and immortality by force, Sounds like pretty human thing to relate to.

    Imagine on earth right now we discover heaven exist but only the people from Sweden can go. Everyones told we can take heaven by force from Sweden. Sweden is fucking toast and its not irrational.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2022-10-27 at 08:38 PM.

  20. #7480
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Again. Those are real threats. The Elves are not a real threat to Numenor. Even Tolkien has the Numenoreans irrational in this regard. I'm not sure why you are choosing this hill to die on when even Tolkien Canon doesn't back you up. Just settle on you not liking the depiction instead of trying to label it poor writing or anything else you can think of.
    Because my arguments aren't against what Tolkien wrote, and isn't about how the show depicted the Hate Rally scene. It's about their choice to make it a hate rally about Elves taking their jobs. It's about making a big deal out of something that isn't a real threat at all. It's about giving Pharazon a moment that is predicated on nonsense.

    And there's no hill to die on, I've been saying the same thing over and over again to someone who seems to be too ignorant or stupid to understand my very basic point, lol. It's not my problem if you keep arguing things out of context. My problem is not how or why they executed their plot, my problem is the plot they chose made the Numenoreans look dumb.

    And as minteK917 said above, their jealousy of the Elves is quite understandable when immortality and Valinor (basically Heaven) are manifested reality, not just intangible concepts. And that could simply be exactly as presented - jealousy and envy, rather than irrational hate. It's the difference between say Boromir being misguided by his intentions to use the One Ring and being envious that it was given to Frodo to bear, and Boromir merely hating Frodo because he's a filthy halfling who 'took his job'.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-27 at 08:36 PM.

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