Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[minteK917]

Right. It isn't poor writing by any definition you choose to use. What threat of the elves would you have preferred they use? We have them being of better skill then men with reference to their sailing ability while the Numenorians had to hone it over generations. We have their ability to perform tasks because they don't have to sleep unlike men. That their Queen is choosing Elves over Men. That sets up that resentment that has been building for thousands of years succinctly.

That sounds more like the numenorians in this show should just take out their queen and build a donald trump wall. NOT MAKE A FUCKING FLEET TO ATTACK HEAVEN AND TAKE IMMORTALITY THEN.

[rhorle]

Those are real things that exist in their world, the root of their downfall is not irrational.

They grew to resent the elves because they were denied immortality. The fact you are using CAPS on the internet shows that irrational behavior manifests in many different ways. Or would you say you are the epitome of rationality right now? Remember that rally was instigated by a person that is upset he and his friends got beat up by one guy. Do you think he would care about being rational if he can whip people into a frenzy?

[minteK917]

Jealousy and fear of death is irrational. They grew to resent the elves because of they were denied immortality. The fact you are using CAPS on the internet shows that irrational behavior manifests in many different ways. Or would you say you are the epitome of rationality right now? Remember that rally was instigated by a person that is upset he and his friends got beat up by one guy. Do you think he would care about being rational if he can whip people into a frenzy?

Do you even know what the word Irrational even means lmao. Their fear of death is not irrational, many beings in their own world are afforded the luxury to NEVER DIE. They are told they can take It for themselves. Its not irrational. If im sitting in front of you with a magic cake, I tell you its a cake that makes you immortal, but dont eat It because its mine. If you eat it you werent fucking irrational, it made perfect fucking logical sense youd want to eat my fucking cake to no longer die wtf are you on about. Even in our own fucking real world, the fear of dying is not irrational, even if everyone and everything we know exist dies eventually. Its not irrational to want to keep existing wtf are you on about, its even less irrational if we knew of ways to NOT DIE?

[Triceron]

Right. It isn't poor writing by any definition you choose to use.

It is, and both Tolkiens would be rolling in their graves if they saw this show. It's quite the bastardization, and the adaptation of Numenor did nothing to improve upon the source material.

Feel free to disagree. There's plenty of people here that would absolutely agree with me on this point.

[rhorle]

They are told they can take It for themselves. Its not irrational.

They only get told they can take it for themselves after decades of building resentment and complete corruption of their culture by Sauron. It took Sauron time to use build on that resentment. It isn't something he told the King and he jumped at it. It wasn't until the king was near death that he manipulated him enough to act. People act irrational because of their fear all the time.

If you want to bring the real world into this then look at all the propaganda through history. It uses some logical things to prey on fear and uses irrational things to keep stoking it. As once you start to believe it no longer matters if it is rational or not.

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It is, and both Tolkiens would be rolling in their graves if they saw this show. It's quite the bastardization, and the adaptation of Numenor did nothing to improve upon the source material.

You don't know how the Tolkien's would behave. It is also silly to use group think as a reason for why you are right. By invoking that you even display similarities to how the Numenoreans were depicted. That people start to act irrational for many reasons and it can be preyed upon by those who know the right things to say.

[bledgor]

I can settle this debate for both parties. Rhorle the troll is wrong, like usual, but will defend his point with every tool available until you get tired of yelling an obtuse wall, get banned, or he changes the point for the 1000x to distract you from your original discussion. Any conversation with him is moot because you can't logical talk with him, he refutes ANYTHING that goes against his point, no matter how base in fact, lore, and the real world it is.

[minteK917]

TIf you want to bring the real world into this then look at all the propaganda through history. It uses some logical things to prey on fear and uses irrational things to keep stoking it. As once you start to believe it no longer matters if it is rational or not.

There you go, you finally figured it out. THE SHOW DOESENT TELL YOU THAT PART. It only did random irrational bits. Thats the problem, thats why theres 4 pages on google of articles made in 2022 explaining why the numenoerian hate the elves. Because to an average viewer that doesent read shit, IT MADE NO SENSE IN THE SHOW. They only show the irrational part. YOU FIGURED IT OUT, YOU FINALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT EVERYONES SAYING. Congrats. Thats part of shit writing. If i need to google why main factions are at odds in your show, theres some lack)

[rhorle]

It only did random irrational bits.

Elves being better sailors with less effort is not irrational. Elves not needing to sleep is not irrational. Their queen becoming an elf-lover is on the border. Just because something shows up on google isn't proof of anything. There is a website that has been pushing out hate and lies about the show for over a year now. It makes no attempt to be credible. It can show up on google. You display how what the show did was not shit writing. As they used rational bits mixed with irrational bits. Just like your argument of google having hits means it has to be true, right?

[Triceron]

You don't know how the Tolkien's would behave.

They'd be rolling in their graves. I didn't think I had to say it twice.

[Varodoc]

I'm still hoping that Annatar appears in Season 2, since I like elves. Bonus points if they cast Lee Pace (Thranduil's actor) since he pretty much represents the quintessential beautiful and fair elf.

Canonically Annatar was wary of Galadriel because she was suspicious of him; with this Show canon ending with Galadriel discovering that Sauron walks amongst the mortals disguised as one of them, it would make even more sense for Annatar to avoid her. She's already exposed him in one of his mortal disguises and she's be extra wary. He knows she's dangerous, she's iconic, and she's the moment.

Ofc I'm sure that Slay Queen will still find a way to prevail (and I also believe that she can fix him); still, I do hope they bring in the Lord of Gifts for S2.

Sauron will still need a mortal form because there are two sets of rings left to forge and he still has to get captured by the Numenoreans, who he'll eventually convince to turn against the Valar.

[rhorle]

They'd be rolling in their graves. I didn't think I had to say it twice.

Repetition doesn't make something true. It's not like rolling in their graves means much when the Jackson films would have done the same, right?

[InfiniteCharger]

Did you look at that date? November 15th, 2017. Amazon announced it bought the rights on November 14th, 2017. While the official resignation date was August 29th it didn't become known to the general public until after the Amazon deal was announced. I didn't get any facts backwards.


Obviously, deals of this nature don't happen overnight and it's even possible that there were talks of a TV series ongoing while Christopher Tolkien was still serving as estate director. Yet the final decision was certainly made when Tolkien no longer had any say or control.

Your other article even states they don't know when things were finalized and that they are speculating that it happened after August 31st because of Christopher's views. These are not the smoking gun you think they are. It still doesn't change that Christopher was in charge when they approached companies to buy the rights. That he would have helped shape the deal even if he wasn't in charge when it was signed. I don't think you even know what context the discussion has and just saw what you thought was an easy way to take a pot shot at me.

The point was he resigned before the actual deal with Amazon was announced and the implication of these articles is that this reflects a change in direction for the Estate and that there were others who were being blocked from doing such deals because of his presence. Again, you just got shown to be wrong and I posted all of this in this thread before so you acting like you came up with some new facts is just you stubbornly denying reality.

[Triceron]

Repetition doesn't make something true. It's not like rolling in their graves means much when the Jackson films would have done the same, right?

If it doesn't mean much to you, why does it bother you so much when I repeat it?

Seems to me like it means more to you than you actually think.

[rhorle]

The point was he resigned before the actual deal with Amazon was announced and the implication of these articles is that this reflects a change in direction for the Estate and that there were others who were being blocked from doing such deals because of his presence. Again, you just got shown to be wrong and I posted all of this in this thread before so you acting like you came up with some new facts is just you stubbornly denying reality.

Right. Resigning before something is announced doesn't mean he resigned before it was signed. The estate was already changing direction before he resigned which is why they were shopping rights. Could Christopher have been forced out? Sure. We don't know that and you haven't shown anything to be wrong. All you've posted is the opinion of the writer of those articles.

[Triceron]

The point was he resigned before the actual deal with Amazon was announced and the implication of these articles is that this reflects a change in direction for the Estate and that there were others who were being blocked from doing such deals because of his presence. Again, you just got shown to be wrong and I posted all of this in this thread before so you acting like you came up with some new facts is just you stubbornly denying reality.

Not to mention that even after his death, there were some shenanigans going on like the news of Tom Shippey being fired from the project mere months after Christopher Tolkien's death, and the (lore) restrictions he mentioned in interviews back in 2019 seem to be inapplicable to Rings of Power today.

Theoretically, Amazon can answer these questions by inventing the answers, since Tolkien did not describe it. But it must not contradict anything which Tolkien did say. That’s what Amazon has to watch out for. It must be canonical, it is impossible to change the boundaries which Tolkien has created, it is necessary to remain “tolkienian”.

There's plenty that isn't canonical at all, which is the damning thing about his statements here before he was fired.

[rogoth]

They only get told they can take it for themselves after decades of building resentment and complete corruption of their culture by Sauron. It took Sauron time to use build on that resentment. It isn't something he told the King and he jumped at it. It wasn't until the king was near death that he manipulated him enough to act. People act irrational because of their fear all the time.

If you want to bring the real world into this then look at all the propaganda through history. It uses some logical things to prey on fear and uses irrational things to keep stoking it. As once you start to believe it no longer matters if it is rational or not.

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You don't know how the Tolkien's would behave. It is also silly to use group think as a reason for why you are right. By invoking that you even display similarities to how the Numenoreans were depicted. That people start to act irrational for many reasons and it can be preyed upon by those who know the right things to say.

all of which never happens in the show, so why is that numenoreans hate elves again?, because the show doesn't state why, nor does show any canonical reasoning behind it either, meaning that everything you have been arguing is both bad faith and patently wrong, but you will never admit to that as you have wasted hundreds of pages of bandwidth arguing in bad faith at every turn after being shown myriad times to be wrong in every possible way and yet you're still here trying to put forth your point as being correct when it couldn't be further from the truth.

[Triceron]

all of which never happens in the show, so why is that numenoreans hate elves again?

Because they're taking their jobs, it's so obvious right?

[rhorle]

all of which never happens in the show, so why is that numenoreans hate elves again?

Right. They haven't been told they can take it for themselves by Sauron yet. Astute observation. They have however existed for decades and resentment of elves has been shown. Outside of the show Amazon states "-but it has been centuries since the elves were last welcomed on the their shores." about the Numenoreans. At around 0:9:33 of episode 3 we have:

Galdariel: "Once Elves came freely to these shores. Our People were as kin. Sharing gifts, knowledge.
Halbrand: "What happened?"
Galadriel: "Numenor began to turn away our ships. In time, they broke off all contact."
Halbrand: "Why?"
Galadriel: " We may be about to find out"

Later after Galadriel arrogantly asks to be returned to her people the queen and Pharazon are talking:

Pharezon: "It would be wise to resolve this matter swiftly."
Mirel: "She is but one Elf."
Pharezon: "An avalanche can start with one stone. We dare not invite your father's cloud back overhead."

We later learn that the cloud is her father was friendly towards elves. We also have a scene where Mirel says the White Tree is a living reminder that the eyes and judgement of the Valar are always upon them. She also says that elves have been unwelcome on their shores since the reign of her grandfather's great grandfather and Elendil broke that precedent. She even asks him if he is an elf-friend because that is what his name means. She even hints that he committed treason for rescuing an elf.

So are you sure you watched the same show? Because the things that you claim never happened on the show clearly did. This was all setup prior to the rally in episode 4 as well. The only one trying to put forward a point that is furthest from the truth is yourself.

[Triceron]

Right. They haven't been told they can take it for themselves by Sauron yet. Astute observation. They have however existed for decades and resentment of elves has been shown. Outside of the show Amazon states "-but it has been centuries since the elves were last welcomed on the their shores." about the Numenoreans. At around 0:9:33 of episode 3 we have:

Galdariel: "Once Elves came freely to these shores. Our People were as kin. Sharing gifts, knowledge.
Halbrand: "What happened?"
Galadriel: "Numenor began to turn away our ships. In time, they broke off all contact."
Halbrand: "Why?"
Galadriel: " We may be about to find out"

Later after Galadriel arrogantly asks to be returned to her people the queen and Pharazon are talking:

Pharezon: "It would be wise to resolve this matter swiftly."
Mirel: "She is but one Elf."
Pharezon: "An avalanche can start with one stone. We dare not invite your father's cloud back overhead."

We later learn that the cloud is her father was friendly towards elves. We also have a scene where Mirel says the White Tree is a living reminder that the eyes and judgement of the Valar are always upon them. She also says that elves have been unwelcome on their shores since the reign of her grandfather's great grandfather and Elendil broke that precedent. She even asks him if he is an elf-friend because that is what his name means. She even hints that he committed treason for rescuing an elf.

So are you sure you watched the same show? Because the things that you claim never happened on the show clearly did. This was all setup prior to the rally in episode 4 as well. The only one trying to put forward a point that is furthest from the truth is yourself.

That's a lot of words for not being able to answer why the Elves are actually unwelcome to their shores.

It would've been easier to just say they're gonna take their jobs. You know, since they had no other choice than to write that hate rally.

[Xath]

Yup! At the end of the day, if all of the people complaining about lore inaccuracies, etc, has no previously knowledge of tolkien lore, the only thing they would have to complain about is the slow story story progression and stale acting. So again, overall, decent show. 6/10. Will watch season 2.

Honest question why would you waste 8 hours of your life watching a show you admit is 6/10 and then plan to waste another 8 hours? There are so many better things to be doing and much better shows to watch.

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But so are you. Because that doesn't stop rights from being the issue as well. It just means they diverged for more than one reason and talked about the creative rather then what they were told they couldn't use by the estate. That is the point. We don't know because the rights issue is complicated not often talked about. They have also responded to other critique then diversity complaints. Stop using one thing to mean everything just because it is something you really dislike.





World building is not required to answer every single question you may have about a subject in order for it to be good. Again if we apply your critique to Tolkien's own work we find that a lot of his world building happened outside of his published work. He even was constantly changing his world including a desire to re-write all of The Hobbit for its tone and story to better fit Lord of the Rings.



To you. Again you keep making things about one issue only. There were authors of Tolkien's time that created terrible worlds just as there are ones of that great non-terrible ones now. There are likable characters in Rings of Power. They might not relate to you but then that shouldn't be a problem, right? Because fiction is designed to be written for more then just one person. Just like Tolkien doesn't have characters that are relatable to everyone. Which using that now for Rings of Power contradicts your earlier Fantasy claims. As to be relatable they have to reflect parts of the "modern world" in the actions of the characters, right? Yet when they try to make the "scam" more relatable you tear it apart for being made relatable. Strange, right?

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Hate for the sake of hate is dumb as dirt. It isn't about making sense but stoking that hate for a cause. Are you really that surprised a politician would be able to manipulate such things?

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Rings of Power has never said they couldn't write better because X was in the role. The only ones using casting as a shield are the ones like you that keep making certain aspects of casting as the reason why bad writing exists. While ignoring that the writing would be bad regardless of casting. You and others really expose your silly claims by what aspects you just can't let go even when you'll admit they don't matter at all if you like the show/film.

Can you stop lying about what I say? I did not blame casting for bad writing I said casting is used as a shield to deflect criticisms of bad writing by claiming all criticism of a show/movie is racist or sexist or any other ist. I have said the writing is dogshit you are the one who keeps trying to twist words.

You consistently make tiny snips and then only reply to those snips ignoring the entire context which was about the initial marketing of thor vs rings.