Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

A show that is a success isn't making serious noise about moving showrunners to a lower tier role lols

"Serious" lol. There have been rumors of all sorts happening about the show even before the season started. Every rumor should be taken with a grain of salt. The show still has not been a failure.

[Syegfryed]

Every rumor on this show should be taken seriously seeing how the rumors before were proven to be right

[Biomega]

mostly it's professional reviewers being like, eh, this is boilerplate fantasy with high production values, I'll give it a B+.

I don't know exactly how it is for Fantasy, but as an academic specializing in Science Fiction, I know there's been a long-standing problem with reviewers that just don't really understand the genre - movie reviewers in particular. It can be very hard to get someone to go in-depth on aliens and spaceships when what they're really used to is French independent films or South-American auteurs or whatever. That's not to say that every genre film is a hidden gem (far from it) but there appears to be a good number of film critics that haven't quite got the toolkit OR mindset to evaluate certain genres. Though to be fair there are also those who very much do.

I can imagine it could be a similar situation for Fantasy, with people just reviewing as they would review any regular ol' movie/show and having only superficial genre knowledge or experience. That could absolutely reflect in their reviews in the ways described: looks impressive, has something about elves and orcs and whatnot which I guess is what fantasy does or something, music sounds fine, actors seem to not be complete idiots, B+ I guess. Especially problematic for a complex franchise like Tolkien, where there's lots of mythological interconnections that are not only relevant, but ARE the franchise - the entire thing thrives precisely off of the fact that's it's a larger mythology, and that's a big problem for single works within it. It's hard for any reviewer not in the know to respect that fact properly, unless they're a fan themselves - and then we get into murky territory between critic and fan which has its own problems.

And that's not even going into the whole swamp of the review industry, of course, where it's always easy to suspect people are pulling their punches so as not to sabotage their own careers. Whether or not that's actually the case.

[Triceron]

It's been fascinating to see how different the fan reaction has been compared to reviewers. Reviewers are almost all positive - fans are negative, particularly actual Tolkien fans. The rotten tomatoes ratings are still 39% and 85%. So I mean, yeah, the rumors have been more reliable than the media. It's been shocking to see this. There are a few people who share the overwhelmingly negative reaction that fans have, but mostly it's professional reviewers being like, eh, this is boilerplate fantasy with high production values, I'll give it a B+.

So yeah, we're left with rumors in the absence of a functioning critical press.

Not to mention Amazon has been completely silent after the series finished. Considering how much they were touting the success of the show at launch, the silence now is deafening.

I think the rumors of the execs shitting their pants at the success of House of the Dragon could be reasonable true.

[kasuke06]

Not to mention Amazon has been completely silent after the series finished. Considering how much they were touting the success of the show at launch, the silence now is deafening.

I think the rumors of the execs shitting their pants at the success of House of the Dragon could be reasonable true.

"Oh shit, if you make something good instead of just expensive people like it?"

[Biomega]

In their review of the final episode of Rings of Power (which is now a podcast, instead of written), you get the lead podcaster saying, "I liked it" in a voice that suddenly gets higher, and it just to me seems like they aren't really being very tough on the series... then for the last 30 minutes of the episode, the actual showrunners come on and are treated with kid gloves. It's all very strange.

I mean, it's easy to see why this would play out that way, right?

No company in their right mind is going to send its showrunners to a podcast to be slaughtered. Those appearances are VERY tightly controlled in most cases, and wherever there is even a sliver of doubt that this might not go too well, they just don't let them appear. And of course it's the same on the other side, where no podcast run with the aim of making some kind of money is going to blast a guest in ways that kill any chance of ever getting any similar guests in the future. It is, at its core, a conflict of interest: they're not interested primarily in providing the best review they can; they're interested primarily in having a job as a reviewer. They'd probably LIKE to have both happen, and maybe they even can, most of the time; but when it comes down to a choice between review and career, who could fault them for choosing career, really.

Advisors to the king, effectively - the king needs advisors who give him good advice, but when good advice means pissing off the king and getting executed as a result, no advisor will give that advice no matter how good it is in the abstract. Because there's things they value more than giving good advice. The result, unfortunately, tends to be a spiral into sycophancy and echo-chamber insulation.

[rhorle]

And, uh - it's not.

It is a hit though. Just not a hit for all of Tolkiens fanbase. It is #3 in the US on prime currently.

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Not to mention Amazon has been completely silent after the series finished. Considering how much they were touting the success of the show at launch, the silence now is deafening.

Even HBO is not saying much about House of the Dragon. It really doesn't mean much except for those looking to make a mountain out of a molehill.

[Joszef Kiprich]

I was watching NFL last Thursday. Kinda telling they mention all kind of series during the game, like The Boys, but not their most expensive one.

[Triceron]

Even HBO is not saying much about House of the Dragon. It really doesn't mean much except for those looking to make a mountain out of a molehill.

There's plenty of buzz around HoD still, and HBO execs recently talked about more GOT Spinoffs in the works (outside of Season 2) in light of HOD's success.

We haven't really heard anything regarding Amazon's season 2 plans for RoP, with the most news we got talking about a 2024 release and some actors coming out saying they don't know of they will be returning at all.

[rhorle]

We haven't really heard anything regarding Amazon's season 2 plans for RoP, with the most news we got talking about a 2024 release and some actors coming out saying they don't know of they will be returning at all.

We know as much about the 2024 release of HotD and their plans as we do for Rings of Power. Not much. The only real difference between the shows is that HBO released a press release post-finale where as Amazon has not. It doesn't mean anything about the state of production or the feelings on Amazon's part. They just don't talk about their shows afterwards that much.

[Triceron]

We know as much about the 2024 release of HotD and their plans as we do for Rings of Power. Not much. The only real difference between the shows is that HBO released a press release post-finale where as Amazon has not. It doesn't mean anything about the state of production or the feelings on Amazon's part. They just don't talk about their shows afterwards that much.

Sure they do. They made post finale announcements for other shows like the Boys and other projects. It's quite expected. They even took time to talk about Wheel of Time post finale, and I thought that was a mediocre series, worse than RoP.

That's why I said their silence here is deafening. It's actually not what was expected.

[rhorle]

Sure they do. They made post finale announcements for other shows like the Boys and other projects. It's quite expected. They even took time to talk about Wheel of Time post finale, and I thought that was a mediocre series, worse than RoP.

Amazon has done podcasts and interviews with the end of the season for Rings of Power. There isn't a silence that is any less for their other shows. The talk for their other series was primarily second-hand from news, influencers, etc.

[Triceron]

Amazon has done podcasts and interviews with the end of the season for Rings of Power. There isn't a silence that is any less for their other shows. The talk for their other series was primarily second-hand from news, influencers, etc.

Assuming you are talking about their official Rings of Power podcast which you probably haven't listened to, that podcast was bout the run of the series, not talking about current status of its viewership and what they have in store for the near future.

[rhorle]

Assuming you are talking about their official Rings of Power podcast which you probably haven't listened to, that podcast was bout the run of the series, not talking about current status of its viewership and what they have in store for the near future.

They have done other appearances. The official podcast even has a post-finale (day after it aired) interview at NY Comic Con. The CEO of Amazon studios talked about Rings of Power at Mipcom. Even House of the Dragon hasn't said what they have in store for the future. All they have said is they won't return until 2024 and a few general plans. You are holding Amazon to a standard that practically no one follows. Amazon hasn't even talked about future seasons of their other shows right after a season ended.

https://variety.com/2022/biz/news/lo...gm-1235408282/

[Stormwolf64]

It's been fascinating to see how different the fan reaction has been compared to reviewers. Reviewers are almost all positive - fans are negative, particularly actual Tolkien fans. The rotten tomatoes ratings are still 39% and 85%. So I mean, yeah, the rumors have been more reliable than the media. It's been shocking to see this. There are a few people who share the overwhelmingly negative reaction that fans have, but mostly it's professional reviewers being like, eh, this is boilerplate fantasy with high production values, I'll give it a B+.

So yeah, we're left with rumors in the absence of a functioning critical press.

As if you can trust reviewers. In the norwegian media the review of house of dragon for example did not get rated based on how good actors it had, or how good the plot was. Nope. All focus were on female presence, empowerment and how they focused on taking down patriarchy. If this kind of imbecilic thought process dominates paid reviewers from big media companies then they're all trash and deserve moving homes from their house to a cardboard box on the streets.

[rogoth]

You're right, but why even waste your time? This thread has entered the usual phase popular threads in this sub-forum enter; the same handful of miserable cunts whining incessantly and anyone that dare be positive is being paid, are a shill, or a troll, or whatever. Anything positive is seen that way. There is immediate distrust. While anything negative is met with serious acceptance, because how could this piece of media be seen any other way? Though, tbf, this thread started off that way long before there was even a single episode.

Personally, I'll just wait until S2 starts and see which of them immediately decides its dogshit in the months before it airs, even if they change anything for the better. That's all this shitshow of a sub-forum ever is; the dregs of media consumption. People that doesn't actually watch things (unless they get called out on it enough and then do lol). People that just read summaries (Xath). People that are blatant hypocrites that will accuse you of arguing for the sake of it, while doing exactly that themselves (Triceron). People that make YouTube videos 6 months before an episode airs to tell you how evil cannot create anything good with a butchered Tolkien quote (Val). These are not serious people and certainly don't deserve your time. Let them rage like the impotent beings they are. If they don't do it here, they're probably just doing it in YouTube comments anyway.

Its a shame I won't read replies to this post, though.

and yet every available metric shows it to be a failure of epic proportions, so bad was its' failure it's got all upper management at Amazon desperately scraping around to get the fires put out and run as much damage control as is possible, with the showrunners all but begging people to watch the show in recent interviews they did for the same publication calling out the 'creatively bankrupt first season', but i mean you don't believe in hard data, you don't believe when people tell you something months in advance which turns out to be true after the fact, because the only metric you believe in is your feelings, and as you have demonstrated countless times in this thread as well as myriad other threads over time, if something hurts your feelings it's the biggest travesty known to mankind, but by all means, keep telling everyone how much of a masterpiece this commercial failure has been, i'm sure your little echo chamber will enjoy that, all 5 of you.

[Syegfryed]

People are either full on copium thinking this show was a hit or a success or eating amazon bs of excuses, and i don't know which is worse.

Show was supposed to be the new stranger things or the amazon game of thrones, but it failed to build a fanbase, people only talk about to make fun of it or to delusionary defend it, or just defend out of spite to be a contrarian, in social media the show is not near house of the dragon, it did not bring public engagement

The money they put into it do not reflect the show they present, it was not supposed to be an "ok" show either, and no even this it was.

[rhorle]

Things are heating up... listen, it's not terrible if you don't know the source material. It's fine, boilerplate TV fantasy, with all the flaws of TV writing. But like, you don't spend 250 million to buy this IP and get boilerplate fantasy.

You've and others have already shown that source material isn't the issue. As the Jackson films deviated and where even disliked by the Tolkien Estate for not capturing the spirit of the work properly. Yet those films are praised by you and others as being a good thing. It just shows that deviations, "spirit", and other terms to describe Canon sources are ultimately meaningless in discussions. If a product is liked those things no longer matter. If a product isn't liked then those things matter.

The show isn't exceptional by any means but it isn't generic "boilerplate" either. It still draws a lot from Tolkien's world.

[Syegfryed]

I love the false equivalence of "the source isn't a problem cause peter jackson movie changes stuff too" like, ma boy you are comparing a lake with the fucking ocean, Jackson changes are not nearly close to the bs they did in this show

Things are heating up... listen, it's not terrible if you don't know the source material. It's fine, boilerplate TV fantasy, with all the flaws of TV writing. But like, you don't spend 250 million to buy this IP and get boilerplate fantasy. And, like with Wheel of Time, I don't believe that it's a successful strategy to create something that's just not appealing to the most dedicated fans of that IP because you changed too much. Yes, sure, you need to appeal to wider audience than Silmarillion fans, but I think you need Silmarillion fans to be excited about it and help spread it by word of mouth.

Even if this was a random fantasy world this show would still be mediocre though, that is the second biggest problem with it after the destruction of tolkien work, and that is why it flopped so hard.

[rhorle]

I love the false equivalence of "the source isn't a problem cause peter jackson movie changes stuff too" like, ma boy you are comparing a lake with the fucking ocean, Jackson changes are not nearly close to the bs they did in this show

That is my point that you seem to have missed. Changes that would normal be picked apart are ignored because you like the movies. Even when the Tolkien's do not like it. Shouldn't we be going by their opinion for what fits the spirit of Tolkien? Since they are the closest to the original author as we will ever get. Yet their disdain is also ignored.

The show has not flopped. It still has high viewership. It stopped the decline in viewers for the finale. The barometer for a flop is not your personal taste. It is strange how you, and others, can't actually accept that the show wasn't a flop. You have to keep denying reality for some strange reason. Why is it that any success can't be allowed when you dislike the show?