Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

Because they've made comments about its performance prior to the finale? Why does it matter if it is pre or post when it is the same type of commentary you want?

Because it's not what I said. In fact, it has nothing to do with what I said at all.

I said they have been silent about its performance after the series finished, so I don't know why you're coming at me saying they said stuff prior to it. It has nothing to do with what I said. You understand this right?

You created a fictional argument and are actively arguing it. You even twisted my comments to say 'that still doesn't change that there is no silence about Rings of Power.'. Sure, I can agree with that completely because they weren't silent at all during the release of the series, especially at the first few weeks of release when their numbers were high. Let's not pretend that my comments were ever arguing against that.

Again why does a show have to brag after its last episode in order for it to be seen as good by the studio/producers?

Again, you'll have to ask someone else considering this is not relevant to anything I've said at all, lol. I'm honestly unsure where you're pulling this from.

[rogoth]

Most of the noise comes from YouTube drama fans who think "treated like shit" is an accurate way of describing an adaptation, probably not that many actual Tolkien fans.

you very clearly haven't read any of the reviews for this complete dumpster fire of a project, in places where amazon can't directly censor reviews the hundreds of thousands of die hard Tolkien fans who have given a review have been scathing, and i myself as a die hard fan of the entire works of Tolkien found this disaster waiting to happen, which was later proven to be such a farce it made some of the previously shit on woke fiascos look like works of pristine art by comparison, that's how badly this show has been handled, a total and utter irredeemable trainwreck, so bad did i find it i genuinely thought of adding to a local petition to have it made into a textbook as an example of abject failure in media and a prime example of what not to do when adapting great literary works for television and film.

[rhorle]

Again, you'll have to ask someone else considering this is not relevant to anything I've said at all, lol.

The silence that I'm referring to is contextually specific to the performance of the show and anything to dispel the rumors.

So talking about the performance of the show is not relevant? Why does a show only have to talk about performance post-finale in order for the show to be "successful"? Why do they need to address any and every rumor to be successful? We already have one case of post-finale talking about the show that you dismissed because it was recorded, instead of live, because of a positive covid-19 test. We have examples pre-finale performance. What magically changes about those statements post-finale? Are you claiming they lied?

[Triceron]

So talking about the performance of the show is not relevant? Why does a show only have to talk about performance post-finale in order for the show to be "successful"? Why do they need to address any and every rumor to be successful? We already have one case of post-finale talking about the show that you dismissed because it was recorded, instead of live, because of a positive covid-19 test. We have examples pre-finale performance. What magically changes about those statements post-finale? Are you claiming they lied?

You're implying all sorts of loaded questions, I'm not quite sure what angle you're pushing here. There's nothing to argue here. These have nothing to do with anything I've said.


My original comment talked about them being silent after the series finished, and potentially rendering the rumors that Execs are scrambling after the House of the Dragon's success to be true. I'm not sure how you've come around to say I'm claiming they're lying about their previous statements of the series success when these rumors didn't exist at the time of those announcements. Like, why are you being so dishonest here? I thought you said context was important, why are you ignoring it here?

[rhorle]

Considering you're implying all sorts of arguments here that I've not made at all, I'm not quite sure what angle you're pushing here.

So then what did you mean when you said the silence is deafening? You didn't just say they were silent you were remarking that their silence implies a negative about how they view the show or its performance. It wasn't a "pre-recorded" video. It was a live interview, that was recorded, because Mrs.Salke couldn't attend a conference and give her keynote speech because of a Covid-19 diagnoses.

I've asked you to explain and answer things about your own opinion. Why do you see that as an attack?

- - - Updated - - -

My original comment talked about them being silent after the series finished, and potentially rendering the rumors that Execs are scrambling after the House of the Dragon's success to be true. I'm not sure how you've come around to say I'm claiming they're lying about their previous statements of the series success when these rumors didn't exist at the time of those announcements. Like, why are you being so dishonest here? I thought you said context was important, why are you ignoring it here?

If they previously said they were happy with the show and its success then you implying they are now no longer happy and scrambling means they lied, right? How can they be both happy and unhappy about the same subject? Why do they have to brag about the show after its last episode to continue to be happy about its performance? Why is a rumor automatically true just because they haven't talked about the show?

[Triceron]

So then what did you mean when you said the silence is deafening?

It's an affirmation that they have not addressed the performance of the series after it finished, especially in light of the rumors that have popped up after the series finale. Like the ones that were already being talked about in SpaghettiMonk's post which I was regarding.

You know, context. Which you conveniently ignored despite calling out its importance.

It's been fascinating to see how different the fan reaction has been compared to reviewers. Reviewers are almost all positive - fans are negative, particularly actual Tolkien fans. The rotten tomatoes ratings are still 39% and 85%. So I mean, yeah, the rumors have been more reliable than the media. It's been shocking to see this.

If they previously said they were happy with the show and its success then you implying they are now no longer happy and scrambling means they lied, right?

Not if you consider that House of the Dragon was being released near the same time and was still gaining traction well after Amazon's original statement.

It wouldn't 'imply the original statement was a lie'. It would be a reaction to the competition.


And to piggy-back on what Rageonit said earlier, I can't fix stupidity. So yeah, we're circling around with nothing to discuss or argue here. Just you bringing up a bunch of baseless accusations that I somehow need an affirmation from Amazon in order to consider this show a success or some shit like that. Arguments for the sake of arguing. Anything else? Maybe you want to bring up how my use of 'silence is defeaning' fails to make literal sense? You haven't addressed all the Galadriel Hate statements that I never made, either.

[rhorle]

It's an affirmation that they have not addressed the performance of the series after it finished, especially in light of the rumors that have popped up after the series finale. Like the ones that were already being talked about in SpaghettiMonk's post which I was regarding.

The head of the studio addressed it a little bit in her Mipcom interview. Why would they need to repeat the affirmations from before the finale afterwards? Why would they suddenly no longer like how the show has performed? Why do they need to address rumors at all in order for the show to stay "successful"?

It wouldn't 'imply the original statement was a lie'. It would be a reaction to the competition.

Why would House of the Dragon suddenly cause all of their metrics prior to the finale to no longer be in the "success" category? You keep saying they lied about how they viewed the show as favorable pre-finale because they now don't view the show as favorable.

I'm curious if you remember defending the show as popular. Why suddenly would Amazon view the show as a failure?

Measuring engagement that has kept it in the top 10 shows of the season indicates that its a popular show no matter how you cut it.

[Triceron]

The head of the studio addressed it a little bit in her Mipcom interview. Why would they need to repeat the affirmations from before the finale afterwards? Why would they suddenly no longer like how the show has performed? Why do they need to address rumors at all in order for the show to stay "successful"?

They don't. Addressing rumors has nothing to do with staying successful. Again, why are you taking my comments out of context and conflating different statements together?

I'm curious if you remember defending the show as popular. Why suddenly would Amazon view the show as a failure?

I never said the show was a failure. Again, this is an argument you accused me of which I'm denying I ever made. That's why I'm saying your accusations are fucking dishonest.

You understand this, right?


The show can be considered successful and the execs can still be scrambling because the show may not have met their expectations against the competition. If all you're boiling things down to are failure and success, then you're being anal retentive here.

You don't sound like you even know what rumor I'm talking about. Perhaps you should look into correcting that before commenting about the House of the Dragon and Rings of Power metrics. You know, for contexts sake.

[Biomega]

Just think about that - Tolkien and Lord of the Rings, one of the most beloved series anywhere, and they couldn't even be bothered to find actual fans of the show to do the review!

I get your overall point and you probably didn't intend this to come across that way, but DAMN this is just such a misrepresentation of the problem.

It's NOT that they "couldn't be bothered" to find fans - it's that it seems abundantly clear that any "real" fans SIMPLY WOULD NOT ENDORSE THE SHOW. That's a far, far more damning turn of events. Of course they could have found fans, they're not idiots and know how to use YouTube and Google. They DID find fans, and they either were outright told to fuck themselves, or thought that there would be no way the marquee fans would endorse it or, at best, not endorse it the way they wanted.

Instead they turned to milk-toast "influencer" fans with a fantasy portfolio of whatever flavor that they could get to provide suitable fake enthusiasm as PR and advertising vehicles. Note because they "couldn't find" anyone else, but because everyone else WOULDN'T PROVIDE WHAT THEY WANTED.

Remember: they are not interested in reviews. They are interested in advertisement they can LABEL as "reviews". Their goal is not to get the most comprehensive, most in-depth, most balanced and unbiased assessment of their product. FUCK NO. Their goal is to have people with reach and consumer confidence and broad market appeal create positive buzz about their product. Never forget this.

[rhorle]

They don't. Addressing rumors has nothing to do with staying successful. Again, why are you taking my comments out of context and conflating different statements together?

So then the silence, and lack of addressing them, is not deafening. So the show is popular but Amazon is panicking about the performance of the show at the same time? If Amazon thinks the show is successful why would they be scrambling? They would have to view the show as not successful to be scrambling due to a lack of a success.

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It's NOT that they "couldn't be bothered" to find fans - it's that it seems abundantly clear that any "real" fans SIMPLY WOULD NOT ENDORSE THE SHOW.

Wouldn't real fans have hated the Jackson movies because they didn't keep the spirit of Tolkien? Lets not pretend that "real" fans has any meaning other then a gate keeping tool. There are no "real" fans. There are only fans. So like the show for what it is. Some do not. There isn't a separate class because of that.

[Triceron]

So then the silence, and lack of addressing them, is not deafening.

It is deafening to me, and you choosing to believe otherwise doesn't change that.

So the show is popular but Amazon is panicking about the performance of the show at the same time?

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? Honest question.

Do you think that because a battle was won, so has the war? I could (figuratively) say that they took the lead for the first quarter of the race, then House of Dragons ended up taking gold. And Rings of Power maybe took silver or bronze. So yes, they were successful. They succeeded on winning a medal. But it still didn't manage to meet what aimed for, and that has caused the coaches to go into a panic because big daddy Bezos expected a gold medal.

Hell, the rumors about the panic isn't even all that negative. None of the rumors I'm talking about implies that the show is a failure. Again, not sure why you're jumping to this unreasonable conclusion. Gonna repeat - You don't sound like you even know what rumor I'm talking about. Perhaps you should look into correcting that. You know, for contexts sake.

[Biomega]

But with the Peter Jackson movies, I made arrangements to go see them with friends. I watched them with family members, I talked them up at work, and generally having a fan like me like the movies helps them bring in the casual fans.

That used to be the standard go-to strategy for "genre" products (at least in theory): get the "real" fans onboard, and have them push the product to the casuals. Didn't quite work out, apparently; maybe it's the rise of general influencers and their culture, maybe it's platforms like YouTube, maybe it's the negative backlash from never being able to please nitpicky nerds... who knows. But they seem to have shifted towards a "fuck the fans, they'll never be happy anyway, just grab the random popcorn Andy he'll shill over his cash and not ask too many questions" mentality in more areas than just fantasy and science fiction.

Yup, I will keep hate watching it as long as it's on.

I guess this is where we differ. I just stop watching when I'm reasonably sure it sucks. I engage in the meta commentary, partly because it interests me, partly for professional reasons; but I rarely if ever "hate-watch" even things that are big in the public consciousness at the time (excepting things I'm directly working on, which is why I had to torture myself with things like Bright ).

[xChurch]

Crazy how long one person can keep a thread going...

[Shadowferal]

Amazon Bribing People To Watch Lord Of The Rings Series As It Continues To Underperform

It may sound like a bad joke, but Amazon Prime Video is reportedly offering free food to Brazilian viewers if they’ll watch their floundering Lord of the Rings series, The Rings of Power. According to a new video by YouTuber George The Giant Slayer, a visit to the Prime Video Brazil Instagram account reveals an offer for a coupon to iFood, a food delivery service that is Brazil’s version of DoorDash or UberEats. The catch: you have to watch the first episode of The Rings of Power to get it.

George the Giant Slayer shared screenshots from the Amazon Prime Video Brazil Instagram account, promising the iFood coupon will be emailed to Prime subscribers after they watch the first episode of The Rings of Power. While that sounds like great deal, it should be noted that the coupon offers viewers 30 rials, which converts to about $5 in American money. That’s not even enough for a fast food value meal in America, but maybe Brazilian restaurants offer better deals.

Bounding Into Comics detailed how it is just the latest attempt by Amazon to get someone – anyone – to watch the show, which started off with promising ratings after its September 1 premiere. However, according to various tracking services, viewership declined in subsequent weeks. It rebounded for the October 14 season finale, but the bad buzz surrounding the series has loomed over the show like the clouds over Mt. Doom in Mordor.

George the Giant Slayer, in typical YouTuber fashion, has his own hot take on why the series has flopped, as he blames the show’s “woke” mentality. Even for those who embrace that argument, it’s hard to pin the show’s struggles on that factor alone.

Although Lord of the Rings fans took issue with many of the aspects, themes, and characterizations in the show, it had some promising and pretty entertaining elements. Ismael Cruz Cordova’s portrayal of the elf Arondir, who leads the fight against the Orcs, was excellent, but the series as a whole seemed too disjointed, and failed to bring the many parallel storylines and multiple characters together by season’s end. Even the most die-hard Tolkien fans admitted they had trouble following the multitude of characters and deep references to the mythology, so even casual viewers were often lost as to what was going on.

By contrast, HBO’s Game of Thrones prequel series House of the Dragon faced a similar challenge in attracting viewers for a series no one really asked for. While Dragon often stumbled in its first season, with time jumps and character recastings, its focused storyline and entertaining episodes won skeptics over. As a result, House of the Dragon is pulling in far more viewers than The Rings of Power.

It seems the promotion is an effort to keep viewership engaged as the season ends and viewers’ attention is pulled elsewhere. Disney+ is trying a similar tactic with its Star Wars live-action series Andor, by offering the first two episodes on cable TV to attract viewers.

Bounding Into Comics also mentions a rumor that Amazon is considering totally rebooting The Rings of Power, attempting a total do-over in season two that may see an entirely different storyline or even characters. Given the hundreds of millions Amazon has committed here, that rumor is either complete nonsense or a desperation move to save the series, and sadly, both seem plausible at this point.

[Kumorii]

The show can be considered successful and the execs can still be scrambling because the show may not have met their expectations against the competition. If all you're boiling things down to are failure and success, then you're being anal retentive here.

You don't sound like you even know what rumor I'm talking about. Perhaps you should look into correcting that before commenting about the House of the Dragon and Rings of Power metrics. You know, for contexts sake.

Doesn't even have to be that.
It can be successful but they can also see the reactions and the reception to try and foresee the future and what they need to take the show next. It's quite common to look at the market and try and see what the future holds rather than focus on what happened now.

We recently had the Morbius incident where they thought the higher numbers in engagement meant they should do a re-release... only for it to flop again.
High numbers isn't everything when you ignore context of those numbers. It's why there are fields of expertise in number crunching because it's not "NUMBERS HIGH, NUMBERS GOOD".

Hell, Amazon even have conflated numbers with their prime. So there's an even higher expertise in research required since a lot of people who watch will watch "just because" there's nothing else and they already pay for it. It's the same with any streaming service really. There's lots of things people watch just because and it's a factor any researcher have to take into account to gauge the popularity and success of a show.

[rogoth]

That's me - I mean, I'm not sure it's unhealthy, but I'm obsessed with and furious at how terrible and cynical a production it is. Here's my backstory:

I read LOTR for the first time in middle school - it was my favorite book ever. My dad had a policy that he wouldn't let me reread books I had already read, and this was prior to the internet, so I got it from the library, read it, returned it, and that was it, except for two things -

1. I used to go to the library in high school during my study hall and read the copy they had there.
2. I got a gift certificate to buy a book, and my dad let me buy the Silmarillion because I hadn't read it yet. So I read that book obsessively for years, just open it up and read a section occasionally. I've probably read it 15 times.

As an adult I obviously bought the series, watched the Peter Jackson movies and loved them. I remember being mildly annoyed at the changes in The Two Towers, and I understand the Tolkien family's critique that they made some of the characters a bit too "heroic" compared to who they were in the books, but I generally loved the movies. I watched Return of the King at a midnight showing and went to work the next day totally exhausted.

From the first moments it was obvious that this was going to be bad - Amazon paid some influencers and called them "superfans" and had them do a review of the show, and it was fawning and sycophantic and also, painfully obvious that these people were not actually fans of Tolkien (one of them was later asked on her twitch stream what she thought of it and she said that she hadn't watched it yet because she was watching House of the Dragon). One of the other "Superfans" was a big Percy Jackson fan but his entire youtube channel didn't have a single mention of Tolkien, and his website where he reviewed fantasy books didn't mention it either. This was repeated worldwide, as there were complaints about the videos in other countries and languages.

Just think about that - Tolkien and Lord of the Rings, one of the most beloved series anywhere, and they couldn't even be bothered to find actual fans of the show to do the review!

This series comes out, and sure it looks nice, and it has a fairly generic fantasy plot, but from the first episode it's an absolute mockery of Tolkien's work. So yes, the actual fans are angry - a megabillionaire thought he could just write a big check to buy the big IP, then ignore that IP's fanbase completely in order write a 2022 fantasy plot (ELVES WILL TAKE OUR JOBS!!), and it would somehow still be successful. This is a fight against these kind of dumb manipulative things pulled by big corporations, where they are ruining something that is great.

And while we are the underdogs - Amazon gets a lot of lukewarm reviews from various reviewers, many of whom have some financial incentive to say that it's good (like The Ringer, which gives seemingly warm reviews just before Payne and McKay to show up as guests), and the show has an 85% positive ranking from critics - we are making progress. That 39% rotten rating on Rotten Tomatoes hasn't budged, thank god. They deleted a bunch of reviews from Amazon early on (including mine) to try to keep the score higher, but hopefully they know internally that their show sucks balls. Hopefully the next shoe to fall is the Emmys, where House of the Dragon cleans their clock.

At this point we have to win. We have to beat them, and make it clear that bullshit like this is not how you handle content that is beloved by fans.

except they did find 'fans' to review the show, they found the perfect set of 'progressive', 'brave', 'diverse', to push the woke agenda that this show was built upon, the very foundation of this story was allegory for modern world politics and economics, it's a bastardisation of epic proportions, but don't think for one second they didn't bother spending any effort on these kinds of things, if anything i would bet they spent THE MOST effort on making sure they had the 'right' mouthpieces in place to parrot 'the message', and would refer back to that marketing as a shield against whatever criticism they face like they did with that laughable and pathetic twitter bullshit where they paid some of the actors of the PJ films to wear a t-shirt that was all about 'inclusivity' or whatever bullshit narrative they tried to push.

these showrunners and the overall management in charge all signed off on this kind of sycophantic, pandering behaviour, and endorsed it as much as possible not only throughout the entire marketing campaign, but also throughout the entire 'plot' of the show, everything is crafted to sell you 'the message', and in so doing they have pissed on the grave of Tolkien.

[rhorle]

It is deafening to me, and you choosing to believe otherwise doesn't change that.

Right. We are discussing your comment. It still shows that the silence isn't deafening because they've addressed stuff a little bit after the show finale. They addressed stuff a lot during the course of the show. Why do they have to repeat similar things after the finale? Why do they need to address any rumor at all? Why does the lack of addressing a rumor make that rumor true?

[Triceron]

Right. We are discussing your comment. It still shows that the silence isn't deafening because they've addressed stuff a little bit after the show finale. They addressed stuff a lot during the course of the show. Why do they have to repeat similar things after the finale? Why do they need to address any rumor at all? Why does the lack of addressing a rumor make that rumor true?

And there are articles covering exactly your questions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/startef...emmys_a119/amp

"I heard from someone who has a connect at Amazon that – if you wanna know – that effectively, they're going to be retooling," he explained (via). "And [Payne and McKay] are more than likely…they're not gonna be publicly fired, but their role will be reduced."

"Potentially just remaining in the writers room," Chris Gore clarified, "but my understanding is they're looking for more experienced showrunners."

And

Allegedly, Amazon wants to avoid overwhelmingly negative buzz, associated with such a decision, which will sink any hopes of The Rings of Power winning at least some award categories (via).


Like I said, you keep talking about things you have clearly zero understanding of. You keep talking without knowing any of the context. You keep accusing and asking questions that would easily be answered if you bothered to look, and make excuses that you are clearly wrong about like saying Amazon doesn't report on performance after a series is fully released. Like, you're so full of shit because you're not actually interested in discussing the topic of the conversation. I gave you fair advice to look into the runors before you reply, and you ignored that both times. You just argue the fuck out of anything I say here for the sake of arguing, trying to prove anything I say to be wrong.

Dishonest as fuck.



Again, I have not said any of these rumors are true, only that the silence and lack of addressing any rumor makes it possible for it to be true, namely because these rumors already outline this reasoning. There are plenty media covering these rumors, multiple rumors floating around. The ones i listed above are two differently sourced rumors.

The fact that you disagree with my opinion that the silence is deafening does not give you precedent to 'call me out' on somehow being wrong about said opinion. If you have a different opinion I can live with that, but I won't stand for the blatant gaslighting you're attempting here. I call that out for the dishonesty that it is.

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Hell, Amazon even have conflated numbers with their prime. So there's an even higher expertise in research required since a lot of people who watch will watch "just because" there's nothing else and they already pay for it. It's the same with any streaming service really. There's lots of things people watch just because and it's a factor any researcher have to take into account to gauge the popularity and success of a show.

Yeah, there has been plenty of manipulation on Amazon's part. I wouldn't be surprised since they literally have the money to do this.

[rhorle]

And there are articles covering exactly your questions.

That only explains the rumor. Not why you think every rumor has to be answered. Or why a show is seen as bad by the studio when not answering those rumors. If lack of addressing a rumor only makes it possibly true then silence is not deafening. Every rumor is potentially true. So it not being refuted doesn't mean anything. Seeing as how you are saying Amazon manipulated numbers and stuff wouldn't you just say they are lying if they said that rumor isn't true?

The best line from your article: Of course, this rumor comes from an "anonymous insider source", and it is published by people who are openly vitriolic towards The Rings of Power

[Triceron]

That only explains the rumor. Not why you think every rumor has to be answered.

Why does it matter to you what I think about rumors being answered? Why do you need an explanation at all? Surely I don't owe you one, considering my personal opinion does not concern you in the slightest.

Why are you gatekeeping, Rhorle? Why are you being so dishonest against anything and everything I say? I didn't poop in your cheerios, you picked it up and put it there yourself.