Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Nurasu]

Yes maybe they should of gone with the angle that a race that lives in mountains and mines and rarely sees the sun...........should be black.

It's weird how Central Americans aren't as dark as Africans isn't it? Because the sun doesn't shine on them (at the same equatorial level even) quite as brightly, I suppose. You don't even understand real world genetics and are going to argue about them in a fantasy world whose author is already a little dubious on the details of that functionality.

[Veggie50]

Or if they feel the need to do a reboot, reboot The Dresden Files, the first go around was rough to say the least(though with current reboots/adaptations I have no faith it will be good). Honestly surprised we haven't gotten a battletech/mechwarriors show of some kind, live action or animated either. The Saga of the Noble Dead series by Barb and J.C. Hendee is another that could be fun, not many named characters either to worry about.



Strong disagree, you can be Charismatic as fuck no matter how you look, check out James Spader in the blacklist, one of the most charismatic performances I have seen and he isn't exactly someone people consider attractive. Not to mention these are supposed to be dwarves, with their own ideals of beauty, I think it is 100% fine and could easily work on screen.

It’s not about attractiveness though, it’s about being taken seriously. James Spader is a good example here. Do you believe he would be able to deliver the same charismatic performance wearing a dress? It’s something that distracts from the actual acting.

[BeepBoo]

I just find it odd that you go out of your way to question whether a fandom even exists when you admit that you never heard of Game of Thrones while admitting not having a deep knowledge of the popularity of fantasy outside of the 'ultra popular'. Well, you do acknowledge that fandoms exists beyond the ultra-popular right? So no need to question it.

Obviously any and every book has at least some amount of fandom... But if you expect to hear public outcry about something like the social injustice of mis-casting something for every one of those fandoms... you're gonna be disappointed. My point is: something actually has to be popular enough for enough people to even KNOW a slight has been committed and thus get outraged by it.

[bledgor]

It’s not about attractiveness though, it’s about being taken seriously. James Spader is a good example here. Do you believe he would be able to deliver the same charismatic performance wearing a dress? It’s something that distracts from the actual acting.

Honestly, yes, but to be fair he is probably one of the most charismatic people I have ever watched. This is also ignoring the fact I think a skilled actress could pull of a bearded lady look just fine, especially if it is a quality that viewers would/should be expecting. Why are you so sure it wouldn't work, sounds like a you problem.

[rogoth]

Tolkien actually never mentioned Dwarven skin color, so they theoretically could all be black. Maybe they should have gone with that angle. The fact of the matter is that they could be rainbow hued, mixed, mottled, or whatever else according to the source material. And I highly doubt they will have just this one black dwarf; there will be background dwarves that are black.

Just to expound on this further, if you would be so kind, please state, in explicit detail, how Men of the same lineage have different skin tones? Numenoreans were described as being both fair and swarthy, same with the descendants of Beor - that should be physically impossible right? If anything, Jackson whitewashed the original trilogy so badly that it stands out more now.

let me just see if i understand your point here, you're saying that people who live in a very temperate climate, who were born of white progenitors shouldn't be white?, does that about sum it up?, and then to extrapolate from that are you saying that those who exist in other climates where it's more likely that they developed a natural tolerance to that climate over generations as seen in the peoples of the far south/south east of middle earth shouldn't be black? are you telling me that every time you see a 'white' person in the street what you see through your eyes is a 'black' person, and then when you see a 'black' person in the street your eyes distinguish them as 'white' in colour?, is that what your getting at here, because that's what you're insinuating.

as to your other asinine comment, are you asking me to ignore evolution and to state that no matter how much time passes a 20th generation child should look and act exactly the same as their progenitors? what kind of dumbass arguement is that? very obviously the initial bloodline and the first few generations would share almost identical features and traits, after a time depending on environment those features and traits would slowly change to adapt to their environments, if you want a comprehensive explanation i recommend reading the works of charles darwin, because i'm genuinely unsure what you're trying to get at here other than making an asinine arguement that makes no sense and has no context.

[Triceron]

never once has anybody said that dwarves couldn't be born with slightly darker coloured skin, but to be a natural black colour as represented in this promotional material is a biological impossibility period, end of story, regardless of whether the setting is a fantasy world or not, (of which the rules of this world are VERY CLEARLY DEFINED by the original author in his myriad works of the source material describing in great detail how EVERY RACE of his world looked, acted and behaved), you don't just magically have a pure black child pop up from a pure white bloodline

Consider that evolution shouldn't even be a thing in the LOTR universe. Humans are creations of Illuvatar, just like the Elves. They are magically created into being. So your argument is basically we can have magic create X, but not Y, because of a bloodline that is also rooted in being magically created.

I get the common reasoning you're trying to apply here, but your argument is quite nonsensical when we're talking about a fictional fantasy world with magical creations. That Tolkien defined the world without descriptions of Black Elves is one thing, to argue that they shouldn't exist because 'it doesn't magically happen' is another altogether. You can't really make that claim in a universe that is literally created by magic. Even the author did not put in rules to say 'No, that can't happen'. It was just never documented to have happened.

Just like there was never a documented case of a Dwarf falling in love with an Elf, but could still exist in the universe. It just wouldn't be canonical to the original stories.

[rogoth]

It's weird how Central Americans aren't as dark as Africans isn't it? Because the sun doesn't shine on them (at the same equatorial level even) quite as brightly, I suppose. You don't even understand real world genetics and are going to argue about them in a fantasy world whose author is already a little dubious on the details of that functionality.

yet again with your disingenuous and moronic comments that have no basis in fact, nor do you even acknowledge nuance and other things that have an effect on such things, furthermore, there are PLENTY of people in middle/southern America who are darker skinned than those across the ocean in Africa, stop being such an asshat and trying to cherry pick something to make it seem like you're right and the person you quoted is wrong.

[Nurasu]

let me just see if i understand your point here, you're saying that people who live in a very temperate climate, who were born of white progenitors shouldn't be white?, does that about sum it up?, and then to extrapolate from that are you saying that those who exist in other climates where it's more likely that they developed a natural tolerance to that climate over generations as seen in the peoples of the far south/south east of middle earth shouldn't be black?

I'm saying that's what Tolkien decided for his own universe. A random smattering of black people.

are you telling me that every time you see a 'white' person in the street what you see through your eyes is a 'black' person, and then when you see a 'black' person in the street your eyes distinguish them as 'white' in colour?, is that what your getting at here, because that's what you're insinuating.

no idea what this drivel even means.

as to your other asinine comment, are you asking me to ignore evolution and to state that no matter how much time passes a 20th generation child should look and act exactly the same as their progenitors? what kind of dumbass arguement is that? very obviously the initial bloodline and the first few generations would share almost identical features and traits, after a time depending on environment those features and traits would slowly change to adapt to their environments, if you want a comprehensive explanation i recommend reading the works of charles darwin, because i'm genuinely unsure what you're trying to get at here other than making an asinine arguement that makes no sense and has no context.

Sounds like we're in perfect agreement here though - Tolkien left the door wide open for black Dwarves and Elves, but especially Dwarves.

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yet again with your disingenuous and moronic comments that have no basis in fact, nor do you even acknowledge nuance and other things that have an effect on such things, furthermore, there are PLENTY of people in middle/southern America who are darker skinned than those across the ocean in Africa, stop being such an asshat and trying to cherry pick something to make it seem like you're right and the person you quoted is wrong.

According to him, if they receive the same amount of sun they should be the same color, no? Sunlight is the only factor in determining one's genetic make up. /s

[Magnagarde]

I laughed at the trailer when I saw a Haradrim where they shouldn't be. Even Middle Earth: Shadow of War gives a reasonable and logical explanation as to why a Haradrim is present in Gondor's army of Minas Ithil. Loved playing as Baranor in the game's DLC too. The game isn't canon and it doesn't pretend to be, but even a game tried to come off senseful within the non-canon microcosm that it takes place in.

Yet another virtue-signalling show that will be mired in its unfriendliness to the original source and completely unnecessarily so; all they had to do is follow source material and/or expand upon it in a "lore friendly" manner. If the show is non-canon, then they can just go ahead and do whatever they want in my book, I see no worth in paying to watch it in that case.

[rogoth]

Consider that evolution shouldn't even be a thing in the LOTR universe. Humans are creations of Illuvatar, just like the Elves. They are magically created into being. So your argument is basically we can have magic create X, but not Y, because of a bloodline that is also rooted in being magically created.

I get the common reasoning you're trying to apply here, but your argument is quite nonsensical when we're talking about a fictional fantasy world with magical creations. That Tolkien defined the world without descriptions of Black Elves is one thing, to argue that they shouldn't exist because 'it doesn't magically happen' is another altogether. You can't really make that claim in a universe that is literally created by magic. Even the author did not put in rules to say 'No, that can't happen'. It was just never documented to have happened.

Just like there was never a documented case of a Dwarf falling in love with an Elf, but could still exist in the universe. It just wouldn't be canonical to the original stories.

all the races are 'magically created' into being be Eru, yes, but past that they would each evolve slightly based on their surroundings over time, that's also something that's a biological fact, unless it was stated outright as something that couldn't occur, the bio-organism that is a 'human being' is constantly changing and adapting to their surroundings, so small are the changes that they are imperceivably done, until enough time has passed and the magnitude of the change has taken hold and it is finally visible to the naked eye.

as an aside i think some of what i'm saying is being 'lost in translation', i'm applying real world genetics to this situation, i'm stating categorically that these instances of tokenism can't happen based on the lore we know of how and where these races came from, it doesn't work and no amount of magic is gonna change that fact, i'm also using real world logic in my arguement here because these show runners as quoted by their executive producer want the show to 'reflect what the world (modern day earth) really looks like', which makes these token characters even less possible than the impossible they already are.

and yeah, sure, 'forbidden romances' could have existed, but not during the time period this story is meant to be portrayed within the middle earth timeline, and certainly not between any of the elf/dwarf races as they were staunch enemies at this point in their history, humanity being the only middle ground possibility here.

[Magnagarde]

lawl
At the end of the day, staying true to the source material is all that matters. Personally, i'd find it rather insulting that the only way a show/company adds people of color to a show is by turning already created white characters into black ones.

Absolutely.

[Nurasu]

I laughed at the trailer when I saw a Haradrim where they shouldn't be. Even Middle Earth: Shadow of War gives a reasonable and logical explanation as to why a Haradrim is present in Gondor's army of Minas Ithil. Loved playing as Baranor in the game's DLC too. The game isn't canon and it doesn't pretend to be, but even a game tried to come off senseful within the non-canon microcosm that it takes place in.

Yet another virtue-signalling show that will be mired in its unfriendliness to the original source and completely unnecessarily so; all they had to do is follow source material and/or expand upon it in a "lore friendly" manner. If the show is non-canon, then they can just go ahead and do whatever they want in my book, I see no worth in paying to watch it in that case.

I don't think you know the source material very well then. Numenorians were both fair and dark. The people of Gondor would have been the same. Then yes, there are other nations that were predominantly black.

[Magnagarde]

I don't think you know the source material very well then. Numenorians were both fair and dark. The people of Gondor would have been the same. Then yes, there are other nations that were predominantly black.

Nmenoreans were tall, had golden hair and blue eyes. Some had dark hair, but were a minority.

[Dhrizzle]

if they had made a totally new dwarf faction with this new, for some inexplicable reason beardless, female dwarf as their leader who had been living apart from the rest of dwarven society for a length of time and had developed their own customs and traditions etc, then while a bit disingenuous to the source material it would have been a bit more palatable to understand why there's suddenly a black female dwarf with no beard in middle earth seeing as that goes against every single thing Tolkein wrote when describing (in great detail) how every single race of peoples who inhabit middle earth look and act.

as for the elf, there's simply no defending that abomination, first off elves were always the tallest race of humanoid creatures of middle earth, (outside of some notable exceptions such as Elendil the tall etc), and were fashioned and moulded in the image of their creator, the one and only god of the Tolklein universe, Eru Illuvatar, who was always depicted as the stereotypical elderly white man with flowing white hair and beard, ALL eleven progenitors are white, inter species breeding is rare among elves, with only a handful of known examples, meaning that even if you afford some EXTREME artistic license for such a couple existing, it's never mentioned anywhere that elves ever went anywhere near Harad/Umbar regions or the far south of the lands past these parts where mankind existed in a more tribal and 'barbaric' fashion, meaning that there was no way for 'black' genes to enter the pool, making it biologically impossible for a black elf to spring up out of nowhere, and no amount of bullshit storytelling is gonna change that fact.

this entire plotline they are trying to peddle is tokenism at its finest, not only do you have the 'strong independent black female' box checked, you have the 'strong independent single white mother' box checked, you have the 'token black male character in a leading role' box checked, you also have the 'strong independent single white woman in a position of authority over the patriarchy' box checked, lets not forget the token 'little person multi racial representation' box checked too for good measure, outside of the token Asian character they pretty covered every single 'woke checkbox' that shows up on 'woke bingo', if i have missed any please feel free to add more but off hand i can't think of any.

That's an awful lot of words just to say you're mad about dark-skinned people playing certain parts and also don't know much about the Legendarium.

Most egregious example is probably your description of Illuvatar as an old, bearded white man when to the best of my ability he has never taken physical form. This is especially funny as your false idea about his appearance undermines your point that the elves were made in his image as elves are not old, bearded men.

That and your assumption that elves have "genes" when their race is made mostly of magic and receive traits based on where they live, hence elves that visited or dwelt in Valinor are mightier than the moriquendi. In fact the one inheritable trait we know of - whether the half-elven would follow the fate of men or elves - was a matter of choice for the individuals concerned.

[Nurasu]

Nmenoreans were tall, had golden hair and blue eyes. Some had dark hair, but were a minority.

Numenor was settled by Houses Hador and Beor, predominantly, and Beor's descendants were described as ranging from "fair" to "swarthy". Beorians would have been a minority.

[rogoth]

I'm saying that's what Tolkien decided for his own universe. A random smattering of black people.
no idea what this drivel even means.


Sounds like we're in perfect agreement here though - Tolkien left the door wide open for black Dwarves and Elves, but especially Dwarves.

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According to him, if they receive the same amount of sun they should be the same color, no? Sunlight is the only factor in determining one's genetic make up. /s

ok, lets pretend for a second and accept that 'black dwarves' exist, how do they exist, what's the biology of such a thing, when all science and medicine states that the reason their are black people in the world to begin with is due to the levels of melanin within the skin which developed over millennia giving it the darker pigmentation, shielding from the harmful radiation of the sun which traditionally black races were exposed to more of during this evolutionary period, how does that translate into the dwarves of middle earth who, without exception, live inside mountains and rock formations where no sunlight ever reaches and they rarely venture out of these strongholds unless to trade for food and other goods they cannot make/mine within their holds, how then do you explain the primary trait of a race of people who live out in the scorching heat of the sun being applied to cave dwelling people who never see the sun and as such would never have needed to develop this particular trait to begin with?

i really want to understand how you are expecting people to believe that such a thing is possible when it goes against EVERY known logical process, it goes against everything 'we' know in regards to biology, and regardless of being a fantasy setting you need to have something to relate it to for it to be believable, and i honestly can't think of a single example to make it believable without using the lazy and wrong 'because magic' explanation.

as for the final comment, i read the quote you responded to and your response, and made my own response based on that, if the person you quoted actually said what you have written as a sarcastic retort, then they are in fact wrong, but if that's not what they said then stop making such asinine comments.

[Magnagarde]

Numenor was settled by Houses Hador and Beor, predominantly, and Beor's descendants were described as ranging from "fair" to "swarthy". Beorians would have been a minority.

The actor in the trailer is nowhere near what a Numenorean or even a far-out descendant would look like. I would imagine he could play a Haradrim though. He could have some Numenorean genes, but those would've had to be deluted to such a point that it's pointless to associate the character with the Numenoreans to begin with.

[Nurasu]

ok, lets pretend for a second and accept that 'black dwarves' exist, how do they exist, what's the biology of such a thing, when all science and medicine states that the reason their are black people in the world to begin with is due to the levels of melanin within the skin which developed over millennia giving it the darker pigmentation, shielding from the harmful radiation of the sun which traditionally black races were exposed to more of during this evolutionary period, how does that translate into the dwarves of middle earth who, without exception, live inside mountains and rock formations where no sunlight ever reaches and they rarely venture out of these strongholds unless to trade for food and other goods they cannot make/mine within their holds, how then do you explain the primary trait of a race of people who live out in the scorching heat of the sun being applied to cave dwelling people who never see the sun and as such would never have needed to develop this particular trait to begin with?

i really want to understand how you are expecting people to believe that such a thing is possible when it goes against EVERY known logical process, it goes against everything 'we' know in regards to biology, and regardless of being a fantasy setting you need to have something to relate it to for it to be believable, and i honestly can't think of a single example to make it believable without using the lazy and wrong 'because magic' explanation.

as for the final comment, i read the quote you responded to and your response, and made my own response based on that, if the person you quoted actually said what you have written as a sarcastic retort, then they are in fact wrong, but if that's not what they said then stop making such asinine comments.

Why don't you ask Tolkien these fine questions, since those are the rules he used for Men. Once again, he never mentioned Dwarven skin color or any rules regarding that; I'm extrapolating his relatively non-existent genetic rules for Men to Dwarves, yes, but I feel that's fair without further definition from him (oops, he's dead).

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The actor in the trailer is nowhere near what a Numenorean or even a far-out descendant would look like. I would imagine he could play a Haradrim though. He could have some Numenorean genes, but those would've had to be deluted to such a point that it's pointless to associate the character with the Numenoreans to begin with.

I only mention Numenorians to illustrate the fact there are dark skinned Men outside the Haradrim.

[Magnagarde]

I only mention Numenorians to illustrate the fact there are dark skinned Men outside the Haradrim.

The Numenoreans aren't a good example for the illustration you're trying to make is what I'm getting at here. They're quite possibly the worst example you could've made.

[Nurasu]

The Numenoreans aren't a good example for the illustration you're trying to make. They're quite possibly the worst example you could've made.

How so? They were a predominately white society with a minority black population according to Tolkien's own work.