Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm more surprised that you're oblivious to Rhorle more than anything. I mean this shouldn't be the first time this come up, even if you aren't here all the time I expected you to at least be aware of the situation.

every read like three conversations with him, one on drowning elfs, one on I think gate keeping because he skipped some of a LoTR novel, and this recent one, and of course skimming around people, eyit I’ve then had one back and forth I think on red dragon healing.

Beyond him becoming long winded and a lot of repeating which tends to make me stop reading 10 or so post in nothing really stands out that a lot of pother posters (myself included) do regularly.

If I take your claims at face value said long windednes/repeats could be deliberate dishonesties and then of course there could be dismissing info he asked like the boys stuff.

It was surprising you even decided to chime in here and now, when his back and forth shitposting has been quite obvious for months. I agree that some stranger coming here and seeing might not understand the context of our bad faith argument, I just did not expect that stranger to be you.

*shrugh* I can’t say I’ve taken enough interest in your posting or his to make a mental picture that would make me think you or him were trolling in any given back and forth.

At best from reading alot more of your post then his id say I think your bullheaded and when there’s a possibility of two outcomes you’ll go for one being absolute, but even that isn’t inherently dishonest.

[Triceron]

If I take your claims at face value said long windednes/repeats could be deliberate dishonesties and then of course there could be dismissing info he asked like the boys stuff.

I think that's fair to say.

Just not quite sure what made you feel like you were aware enough of the situation to chime in at that point. Like, what was the conversation we were having about exactly? A statement that I made that he didn't agree with that he was aiming at proving to be wrong using whatever arguments and terms he was setting. That's ultimately what it came down to, passive-aggressive trolling done civilly to avoid 'vacation time'.

It's not like the topic of our conversation was even worth discussing. I just humored his questions till he started changing things I said to fit his own argument.

At best from reading alot more of your post then his id say I think your bullheaded and when there’s a possibility of two outcomes you’ll go for one being absolute, but even that isn’t inherently dishonest.

Fair enough. I don't think it'll change much, but at least I'm more aware of how I people regard me here. Thank you for the insight.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It's not like the topic of our conversation was even worth discussing. I just humored his questions till he started changing things I said to fit his own argument..

I’d disagree Amazons response to ROP being against the grain compared to there other shows is rather worth discussing, the boys getting a lot more promos does paint quite the picture which is why some one would want to know if they actually were getting it or not.

But we’ll it turns out it was two snow trolls fighting on the mountain tops blocking the path through instead.

[Triceron]

I’d disagree Amazons response to ROP being against the grain compared to there other shows is rather worth discussing, the boys getting a lot more promos does paint quite the picture which is why some one would want to know if they actually were getting it or not.

If that had actually been the topic of our conversation in good faith, I'd agree with you.

Having it be requested and immediately dismissed on grounds that it's 'incomparable to Rings of Power' isn't quite the worthy discussion you're looking for here. It was just a waste of time, like I said it would be.

[Koriani]

You can just not open the thread at all? Like, I'm not sure how that is anyone's problem here. The show's over. People are still talking shit. If I'm not the one doing it it'd be other people. Not sure why you need to open the thread at all.

Um, no - not cool.

This thread is about THIS effin Show. SOME of us, absolutely, click on the 'new post' link really wanting to READ ABOUT THE SHOW. Not another page of you ARGUING in "bad faith" with someone you already know and acknowledge it is pointless to argue with. (That's the bad faith on your part, bit.) That isn't even ABOUT THE SHOW but about lack of knowledge in basic stats.

There are no rules on this forum that say once a show is over everyone is free to turn it into a free-for-all of any topic they want. Um, no. "Anyone's problem here -" Its EVERYONE's problem here. Because of all the asshats in this forum who want to turn any and every thread into their own personal circle-jerk of obsessive arguing in circles. And YOU are feeding it and becoming one of the asshats! I don't want to consider you one of the asshats, man.

YOU can stop arguing - just like I did - with the person you continually acknowledge is trolling and 'arguing in bad faith' - but you're doing the same damn thing at this point.

At least when it was pages of show bitching it was related to the show. I clicked and read most of those. But you telling people to just ignore the thread because YOU want to stay OFFTOPIC just to fight with Rhorle in your own personal "who can bitch at the other more" contest is bullshit.

I was with you until that man - but since you seem to want to show yourself the better person to Rhorle, you really need to just STOP posting back. You know, like I did. In fact, you even encouraged me to not bother. But you keep going!

It's not like the topic of our conversation was even worth discussing.

So don't take the pointless-topic-bait! You're only entertaining the two of you. Please, stop. Take it elsewhere. Or you know, listen to your own advice and give it up. You're just arguing in circles.

But saying you're allowed to hijack the thread because the "show is over" is just wrong. No one but the two of you wants to see another page of this argument about stats.

[rhorle]

Having it be requested and immediately dismissed on grounds that it's 'incomparable to Rings of Power' isn't quite the worthy discussion you're looking for here.

It wasn't dismissed though. The information was incorporated into the discussion. I stated that Amazon released similar remarks about Rings of Power and pointed out the difference between a show that has its entire season released on 1 day and a show that has its season released over 7-weeks. Any comments will be after the show release for the former. You can try to re-write history in your weird battle to convince someone else how terrible I am but it won't actually change what was stated.

So similar to what they have done for Rings of Power. Season 1 of The Boys was released all at once so any comments about anything would happen post finale. We have got the same level of comments about Rings of Power.

...

Context is important. So while they did make a response after the shows finale episode was released it was impossible not to. The same statements they made about The Boys season 1 have been made about Rings of Power. A 1 day season versus a 7 week season. How does this make the Rings of Power "silence" deafening? They've already talked about the same stuff.

[Triceron]

So don't take the pointless-topic-bait! You're only entertaining the two of you. Please, stop. Take it elsewhere. Or you know, listen to your own advice and give it up. You're just arguing in circles.

But saying you're allowed to hijack the thread because the "show is over" is just wrong. No one but the two of you wants to see another page of this argument about stats.

Fair enough. I'll own up to this, it really is a result of my own hubris.

Done and done! Back to the depths I go

[rogoth]

Or just enjoy the books and dissociate yourself from the stuff you don’t like? There’s no ‘we have to win’. They don’t give a shit about you, the intellectual property is a commercial asset. Whining about it in an echo chamber is only adversely affecting you. I love the books too, but I’m losing sleep over any of this. Same for Star Wars or the next Indy film or the Dc/Marvel stuff. It’s all just commercial properties. Why let it hinder you.

actually there very much is, because while you obviously don't care about mega corporations coming along and bastardising well known and well loved franchises and products in an attempt to buy their way into history books, all the while pushing their own agenda and in so doing they destroy said franchises and products through purposeful and hateful division or through degrading to the point of making the franchise or product a poisoned chalice making it not worth supporting anymore, if that's something you want to see proliferate then by all means, stick your head in the sand and ignore everything that's been going on with woke hollywood for the past decade, but don't you dare have the audacity to complain when something you love is bought up and ruined because of greed and hubris, because your apathy leaves you zero room for complaint.

[jackofwind]

I read a lot of the hate about the show but you know what, once I got into it I just found myself enjoying it.

I feel like they're going to mess around with the Annatar reveal because they seem to be compressing the timeline a bit, but I don't think it's going to make me shit my pants.

I have really loved the Dwarf stuff so far, touching on the difference in the experience of time between dwarves and elves (though they are both long-lived species), and on the importance that personal grudges and perceived offences play in dwarven culture.

[Triceron]

actually there very much is, because while you obviously don't care about mega corporations coming along and bastardising well known and well loved franchises and products in an attempt to buy their way into history books, all the while pushing their own agenda and in so doing they destroy said franchises and products through purposeful and hateful division or through degrading to the point of making the franchise or product a poisoned chalice making it not worth supporting anymore, if that's something you want to see proliferate then by all means, stick your head in the sand and ignore everything that's been going on with woke hollywood for the past decade, but don't you dare have the audacity to complain when something you love is bought up and ruined because of greed and hubris, because your apathy leaves you zero room for complaint.

To be fair here, the mega corporations are blamed for failures and praised for successes with no real consistency from the fans.

I like to use Star Wars as an example. Fans dislike certain choices like High Republic or Gina Corano firing or Sequel Trilogy and blame Kathleen Kennedy/Disney for these shows. And when good ones appear like Mandalorian or now Andor, the fans praise a major win against the corporation - even though it would also be the same corporation/execs providing these shows. Everything else shifting the blame or praise is usually misattributed without considering these decisions all fall under the same umbrella, and are in some way and form managed by the same people at the end. It's the same people at the top greenlighting the shows you love and the shows you love to hate.

I think whatever comes out for S2 will be quite blurred, considering the extended amount of time being put into it and the lack of transparency we have into what they're doing behind the scenes. Like, if S2 happens to be really good, what would be attribute it to? They listened to the fans? But what if S2 was locked down a year prior and just happened to be good before any rewrites? We wouldn't really know, because anything could happen within the 2 years, and we have no idea what's happening behind the scenes. We can't exactly 'win' when most of the key things like scripts and screenplays are being locked down years in advanced. Those 'battles' are fought years before we see any results and comment on them. There isn't a fluid feedback loop to the show creators like traditional TV series, since these productions are 'too big to pivot' to audience feedback.

[Valkyrst]

To be fair here, the mega corporations are blamed for failures and praised for successes with no real consistency from the fans.

I like to use Star Wars as an example. Fans dislike certain choices like High Republic or Gina Corano firing or Sequel Trilogy and blame Kathleen Kennedy/Disney for these shows. And when good ones appear like Mandalorian or now Andor, the fans praise a major win against the corporation - even though it would also be the same corporation/execs providing these shows. Everything else shifting the blame or praise is usually misattributed without considering these decisions all fall under the same umbrella, and are in some way and form managed by the same people at the end. It's the same people at the top greenlighting the shows you love and the shows you love to hate.

I think whatever comes out for S2 will be quite blurred, considering the extended amount of time being put into it and the lack of transparency we have into what they're doing behind the scenes. Like, if S2 happens to be really good, what would be attribute it to? They listened to the fans? But what if S2 was locked down a year prior and just happened to be good before any rewrites? We wouldn't really know, because anything could happen within the 2 years, and we have no idea what's happening behind the scenes. We can't exactly 'win' when most of the key things like scripts and screenplays are being locked down years in advanced. Those 'battles' are fought years before we see any results and comment on them. There isn't a fluid feedback loop to the show creators like traditional TV series, since these productions are 'too big to pivot' to audience feedback.

That, and the reasons for not liking it vary from 'but you're bastardising the lore' to 'mrnnnngh woke Hollywood'.

In terms of the latter...I enjoyed Shadow of Mordor & Shadow of War. Bastardised the lore, but so fun.

[Triceron]

That, and the reasons for not liking it vary from 'but you're bastardising the lore' to 'mrnnnngh woke Hollywood'.

In terms of the latter...I enjoyed Shadow of Mordor & Shadow of War. Bastardised the lore, but so fun.

Which, also to be fair, aren't issues to dismiss either.

There can be a modern LOTR show without the bastardization and wokeness that we've gotten in the recent big movies. Rings of Power just happens not to be that, and the fans are right to be vocal as well since everyone is expressing their passion for the series, in their own way. Not all of it happens to be in the form of mouth frothing toxicity even if it happens to be lumped in the same category of complaint.

To continue the Star Wars example, we have Andor, which has been a nice change of pace from the bastardization or wokeness (to various extents) that we had in the sequel trilogy and some of the more recent shows like Book of Boba Fett or Obi-Wan. It's not like everything in modern Star Wars has to be all about retconning villains into anti-heroes, subverted expectations and gender diversity. For the most part, the fans voicing the criticism are pretty much saying the same here regarding the LOTR material, in wanting something that feels more true to 'the spirit of Tolkien'.

Of course, I don't think we should let it get in the way of enjoying things that aren't necessarily as canon, like Shadows of Mordor/War. I think in Rings of Power's case, it just wasn't as good as some people may have expected it to be. It wasn't particularly bad, just poorly planned and executed IMO.

[Valkyrst]

Which, also to be fair, aren't issues to dismiss either.

There can be a modern LOTR show without the bastardization and wokeness that we've gotten in the recent big movies. Rings of Power just happens not to be that, and the fans are right to be vocal as well since everyone is expressing their passion for the series, in their own way. Not all of it happens to be in the form of mouth frothing toxicity even if it happens to be lumped in the same category of complaint.

To continue the Star Wars example, we have Andor, which has been a nice change of pace from the bastardization or wokeness (to various extents) that we had in the sequel trilogy and some of the more recent shows like Book of Boba Fett or Obi-Wan. It's not like everything in modern Star Wars has to be all about light sabers and aliens and gender equality.

True. Re: the wokeness issue, it's more of an issue when the writing is just flat out lazy. I've not seen ROP yet, but in the Star Wars sequel trilogy, it's more that the characters are so poorly constructed which drives the problems.

If an actual effort is put in to write GOOD stories and characters, then it's fine.

Enola Holmes as a set of films is very woke, but it's so god damn fun and well done! It's the quality as opposed to the 'agenda'.

[SpaghettiMonk]

To be fair here, the mega corporations are blamed for failures and praised for successes with no real consistency from the fans.

I like to use Star Wars as an example. Fans dislike certain choices like High Republic or Gina Corano firing or Sequel Trilogy and blame Kathleen Kennedy/Disney for these shows. And when good ones appear like Mandalorian or now Andor, the fans praise a major win against the corporation - even though it would also be the same corporation/execs providing these shows. Everything else shifting the blame or praise is usually misattributed without considering these decisions all fall under the same umbrella, and are in some way and form managed by the same people at the end. It's the same people at the top greenlighting the shows you love and the shows you love to hate.

I think whatever comes out for S2 will be quite blurred, considering the extended amount of time being put into it and the lack of transparency we have into what they're doing behind the scenes. Like, if S2 happens to be really good, what would be attribute it to? They listened to the fans? But what if S2 was locked down a year prior and just happened to be good before any rewrites? We wouldn't really know, because anything could happen within the 2 years, and we have no idea what's happening behind the scenes. We can't exactly 'win' when most of the key things like scripts and screenplays are being locked down years in advanced. Those 'battles' are fought years before we see any results and comment on them. There isn't a fluid feedback loop to the show creators like traditional TV series, since these productions are 'too big to pivot' to audience feedback.

Part of the reason I have so much vitriol towards Amazon is that specifically that company seems to have a major, major issue with respecting the ip they purchased. Wheel of Time and Rings of Power have a lot of similarities in how they destroyed the lore. And the actions of the studio - the “superfans” debacle, and then working hard to lump all the detractors of the series into a category with racists, sexists, and even fascists, have been really irksome.

[Triceron]

Part of the reason I have so much vitriol towards Amazon is that specifically that company seems to have a major, major issue with respecting the ip they purchased. Wheel of Time and Rings of Power have a lot of similarities in how they destroyed the lore. And the actions of the studio - the “superfans” debacle, and then working hard to lump all the detractors of the series into a category with racists, sexists, and even fascists, have been really irksome.

I agree completely. But I mean, I don't know what part of that is to blame either, because there's plenty of other shows that they bang out that are pretty damn solid. Reacher, Jack Ryan, the Boys as just a few examples.

At some level, Amazon's Prime Video division is capable of making shows that aren't 'bastardizations' of existing properties. Maybe this problem is specific to their creators tackling genre films, I don't really know. But it's still questionable, since at one point they had one of the House of the Dragon's showrunners/co-creators working on their cancelled Conan project, so I do think they're capable of hiring competent talent.

I'm honestly unsure how this much money going into RoP ended up with what we got. Same with Wheel of Time. That being said, I'd probably say the same about some of the more questionable Star Wars or Marvel shows too.

[rhorle]

Part of the reason I have so much vitriol towards Amazon is that specifically that company seems to have a major, major issue with respecting the ip they purchased. Wheel of Time and Rings of Power have a lot of similarities in how they destroyed the lore. And the actions of the studio - the “superfans” debacle, and then working hard to lump all the detractors of the series into a category with racists, sexists, and even fascists, have been really irksome.

They didn't lump all detractors into that category. I don't understand why you and others have to keep claiming to be victims when it didn't actually occur. It doesn't invalidate your other criticisms. "Respecting the ip" is also meaningless. As the Tolkien Estate thought the Jackson films didn't respect the IP but it isn't dismissed because of that. Hiding behind things that only matter when you personally dislike something shows how shallow they are as issues.

[rogoth]

That, and the reasons for not liking it vary from 'but you're bastardising the lore' to 'mrnnnngh woke Hollywood'.

In terms of the latter...I enjoyed Shadow of Mordor & Shadow of War. Bastardised the lore, but so fun.

either you're being obtuse and dense to get a rise, or you're being purposefully ignorant because you genuinely don't care either way, which is a pretty bad way to look at things in my opinion but you're free to do that i suppose, as to your comment, and to try and be as concise as possible:

several months ago as soon as the main marketing rhetoric began to spin up for this show, it was noted that it would just be a woke fiasco filled with nothing but diversity hires to check the boxes to pander to the minorities, with a script/storyline that was purely fan fiction and with little to no substance shown in any of the early release videos or stills that would change that perception, fast forward to release and everything that was said in the months leading up to release has been proven true, not only that but the scale and scope of the butchering is beyond even what the most die hard critics feared it would end up being, it managed to exceed expectations with how bad it turned out to be.

the major difference between this shitshow of a project and the ones you mention or even some of the other media released for this franchise in the past 20 years, is that these clowns running the circus promised on multiple occasions in multiple interviews over multiple years prior to the ramp up to release that this show was going to be heavily reliant on the lore and the canon that existed and that everything we see would be based in the lore, fast forward to current day and not only is that a flagrant lie, it couldn't be any further from the truth if they tried, the only things representative to the lore are character names and place names, not a single piece of the 8 episode story is grounded in canon, making the entire first season of the show pure fan fiction in every aspect, to bring it back around to the other media, those who made it, made it perfectly clear what type of content it would be, and NOBODY went into it expecting a great story fleshed out from the lore, they went into it knowing full well it would be a load of made up bullshit with potentially decent gameplay mechanics that synergised with the story being told to culminate in a 'good game', which they turned out to be, but they made it clear from the outset that the games' basis was going to be completely made up nonesense loosely tied to the middle earth locale and the peoples therein.

as the season went on, the storyline became so transparent with self insertions from the clowns running the circus, along with real world allegories which do not exist in the established lore of the age being portrayed it's actually comical how badly they fucked this up, i could give a dozen specific examples of this but it's already been well covered in this thread ad nauseum and if you don't care about it then i don't see what repeating myself would do, overall this entire thing has proven beyond doubt that if a corporation regardless of how big or small they are piss off an established fanbase badly enough, it can and will ruin them, and that is precisely what is happening here, the generations old fanbase of Tolkien is fighting back against the sheer fucking hubris of Amazon and the clowns in charge, not only irreparably damaging the Amazon brand, but also showcasing that corporate greed will be tolerated only so far, and that there are some things you do not touch.

[SpaghettiMonk]

I agree completely. But I mean, I don't know what part of that is to blame either, because there's plenty of other shows that they bang out that are pretty damn solid. Reacher, Jack Ryan, the Boys as just a few examples.

At some level, Amazon's Prime Video division is capable of making shows that aren't 'bastardizations' of existing properties. Maybe this problem is specific to their creators tackling genre films, I don't really know. But it's still questionable, since at one point they had one of the House of the Dragon's showrunners/co-creators working on their cancelled Conan project, so I do think they're capable of hiring competent talent.

I'm honestly unsure how this much money going into RoP ended up with what we got. Same with Wheel of Time. That being said, I'd probably say the same about some of the more questionable Star Wars or Marvel shows too.

The only one of those Amazon shows where I’m vaguely familiar with the book story is Jack Ryan, and that’s just a different genre.

I think consistency in world building is just way more important in fantasy, where so much of the focus in on building a detailed, coherent world that is different than our own, than in comic books like Marvel or shows like Jack Ryan. The only one close is Star Wars, and let’s face it, Star Wars’ lore is painfully thin and a lot of show like the Mandalorian are essentially working with a blank canvas.

[Biomega]

True. Re: the wokeness issue, it's more of an issue when the writing is just flat out lazy. I've not seen ROP yet, but in the Star Wars sequel trilogy, it's more that the characters are so poorly constructed which drives the problems.

If an actual effort is put in to write GOOD stories and characters, then it's fine.

Enola Holmes as a set of films is very woke, but it's so god damn fun and well done! It's the quality as opposed to the 'agenda'.

Definitely true. ROP or the SW sequels have massive issues that have fuck all to do with diverse casting or social-issue topics - they're neither to blame for those problems, nor do they excuse them.

The whole premise of positioning "woke" (a term that should just go and die already anyway) as somehow opposed to or mutually exclusive with good writing is nonsense to begin with. And those errors are committed on all sides of the debate, be it people going "woke is ruining good writing" OR people going "you only hate the writing because it's woke" (or anything in between that presupposes that kind of oppositional binary).

It's not easy to write something well. But it's not impossible, either. There's tons of highly talented writers out there - so the problem isn't "we can't find the right people". It's entirely the fact that the money people want PRODUCTS, not works of art (not unless they're also products, of course), and products have a tendency to be hawked with reckless disregard for substance. That's how we got into this mess: all of a sudden the virtue-signaling value of "woke writing" became a silver bullet that allows hack writers to produce product you can tout on the basis of its inclusivity, without any need to actually, you know, make it good. Partly that's on us, the consumers: a lot of the time that WORKS, and people are happy to buy into the hoodwink. But a lot of it is also simply a push from above to streamline things across demographical agendas much more so than social ones; corporations don't REALLY care about minorities, they merely care that their customers care. And the tacit agreement is that we play along because "fake it 'till you make it" does kind of work in terms of establishing societal norms.

The crux lies in what I said initially: quality and "woke" are not mutually exclusive, and in fact have very little to do with each other. And we need to take a stand and make sure people aren't pulling one over on us as consumers by (implicitly or explicitly) pretending like they are. That's not only better for us because it increases the quality of the products we consume, it's also better for society because it makes social issues into more than mere virtue-signalling selling points.

[SpaghettiMonk]

True. Re: the wokeness issue, it's more of an issue when the writing is just flat out lazy. I've not seen ROP yet, but in the Star Wars sequel trilogy, it's more that the characters are so poorly constructed which drives the problems.

If an actual effort is put in to write GOOD stories and characters, then it's fine.

Enola Holmes as a set of films is very woke, but it's so god damn fun and well done! It's the quality as opposed to the 'agenda'.

There’s also an issue where they try to insert things that just don’t fit in the story. RoP is clearly trying to do a “morally grey” Orcs storyline, and, uh, nope, that’s not something Tolkien ever came close to exploring. Sure, a big theme in his works was morally grey men like Boromir, and the rop series should definitely have a storyline like that which results in creation of the Nazgûl, but not the orcs.

It doesn’t fit because every single time you see the orcs in Tolkien, they are just evil, regardless of whether Sauron is in control.