Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[kenn9530]

Bit this isn't about Elves being perfect or not. This isn't about whether they are experienced at fighting trolls or not.

This is about how the show portrayed Elves who are part of the formal Elven military sent out to eradicate the remnants of evil in the world being shown unable to land a single blow on an enemy.

The troll fight in the LOTR Mines scene was not completely one sided. Everyone got hits off on the troll, it just didn't go down easy. So the situation is completely the opposite of incompetence. The Fellowship was being challenged yet were not being shown as incompetent. They got hits off, they got knocked around, it was a full fight.

The Troll scene in Rings of Power was a one sided fight. It was a massacre. The Elves were shown doing nothing to the Troll, until Galadriel steps in and practically one shots the thing. Legolas never one-shots the Troll, the fellowship gets hits in it just doesn't go down easy, that's the difference.

The problem is the show not depicting the Elves having contributed anything in the fight, and making a point that this is how the show presents the Elven army. What should have happened is an extended fight scene where we see the Elves getting hits in but having little effect in taking it down, until Galadriel steps in and finds it's weakness and rallys her troops to take it down together. That would be a display of good command. That would show off her skill as a leader. Instead, the entire scene was presented to show off Galadriel's fighting skill being way higher than that of her troops, and showed her troops doing nothing to the troll. That makes them look inexperienced, that makes the look worthless. Whether they are or not is not the point of the criticism, it is in how the show decided to present this scene in the show.

Did you not notice the elves are struggling by the time they get to the frozen fortress, they are exhausted, also in a frozen climate that would also effect them and trolls are not an easy foe, do you expect them to be at 100% effectiveness at all times just because they are elves, they are sent out to scout for the last remnants of sauron not fight it all themselves, the elves just got knocked down noone was injured or killed, legolas was shown to one shot an elephant with a few arrows that couldnt possibly reach its brain even at point blank range, not everything is supposed to make sense.

[Syegfryed]

You have no idea if he is alive or not at this point

Yes, you do, is pat of their story, elves respawn when they die, they know about it

Obviouly you and the showrunners don't know about it.

elves dont freely travel back and forth to middle earth,

Yeah, they do actually, only later they don't.

she has also been away from elves for whats maybe hundreds of years, you have way too many holes in your weak argument.

you read books and dont know the basics.

[kenn9530]

Yes, you do, is pat of their story, elves respawn when they die, they know about it

Obviouly you and the showrunners don't know about it.



Yeah, they do actually, only later they don't.

No its extremely rare for any elve to be reincarnated, and even if he was currently alive in valinor she would still not have knowledge of it, there is only 2 confirmed cases of reincarnation in lore, so again you are just talking BS, and no they dont have free travel to and from valinor because it was dangerous and many die from attempting it, its a reward for exeptional service so basically retirement to leave middle earth and never return.

You have proven tima and time again you dont even know the basics of the lore.

[Syegfryed]

No its extremely rare for any elve to be reincarnated,[and even if he was currently alive in valinor she would still not have knowledge of it, there is only 2 confirmed cases of reincarnation in lore, so again you are just talking BS

Unlike Men whose fëar (spirits) left Arda when their bodies died, Elves' fëar were bound to Arda until its ending. If an Elf's hröa (body) died, its fëa would be summoned to the Halls of Mandos, where the Valar could re-embody the Elf in a hröa that was identical to the Elf's previous hröa.

All elves do, the ones you mention are the ones who returned to middle earth

, and no they dont have free travel to and from valinor because it was dangerous and many die from attempting it, its a reward for exeptional service so basically retirement to leave middle earth and never return.

Just because it was dangerous doesn't mean they didn't have free travel. the "retirement" was after the place was taken away from the world after numeron attempt of invading.

You have proven tima and time again you dont even know the basics of the lore.

[MCMLXXXII]

Could re-embody, not should re-embody. As said, there are only two known reincarnations.

[Triceron]

Did you not notice the elves are struggling by the time they get to the frozen fortress, they are exhausted, also in a frozen climate that would also effect them and trolls are not an easy foe, do you expect them to be at 100% effectiveness at all times just because they are elves, they are sent out to scout for the last remnants of sauron not fight it all themselves, the elves just got knocked down noone was injured or killed, legolas was shown to one shot an elephant with a few arrows that couldnt possibly reach its brain even at point blank range, not everything is supposed to make sense.

They were shown getting into a fighting stance, ready to face an opponent yes? That means they are ready to fight. They could have opted to run, they did not. They could have retreated, they did not. They set themselves to engage the enemy, which signals to the viewer that they intend to fight.

And they didn't land a single blow in said fight. Not for lack of trying, but because the show decided not to show it at all for whatever reasons. And if just makes them look pathetic.

As I said, all you need is a single scene of the Elves landing a hit or two and I wouldn't have to point this shit out. It'a the fact that they were never shown landing a blow that is making them look worthless. It is a byproduct of the writers leaving out a crucial establishing moment for the Elves when they intended to showcase Galadriel's skills.

There is no excuse here. It'a an oversight, that is exactly what it is.

If 'they were exhausted' is your explanation, then one thing that would make sense to do is run the fuck the other way and not engage the enemy. And by the end after Galadriel beat the troll down, everyone got up, unscathed and unharmed. Where exactly was there any sign of exhaustion in that fight? They weren't caught while exhausted, they stood around like cannon fodder. And they got back up after that fight pretty damn fast. If your explanation is exhaustion, then they didn't show its impact on the fight at all.

You can't pinpoint at all why they were so pathetic in the fight. First you say it's inexperience. Then you say exhaustion. Well if these things were true, then engaging instead of retreating would be stupidity.

[rhorle]

They did the same thing with Elrond - they chose the guy we knew, then paid no attention to his backstory. Remember when they told Elrond he can't attend a meeting because "Elf Lords only"? Dude is only the heir of Thingol, king of the sindar. on his mother's side, and the descendent of Turgon, high king of the Noldor, through his father's side. Oh, and he's also descended from a Maiar - Melian.

It is possible they were leaving Elrond out of it on purpose and used some silly technicality to keep him out. He could have been more a "prince" then a lord in their eyes. It also sets up gaining a more prominent role later in the show by becoming vice-reagent and leader of Rivendell. This makes it so he doesn't have to lie to Galadriel about knowing what their plans were. Or so he wouldn't try to influence them on her behalf like it is implied he has done in the past.

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Yes, you do, is pat of their story, elves respawn when they die, they know about it

Sure elves can "respawn" but there is no given time frame for when that can happen. There is no guarantee that Finrod has already been reincarnated. He could still be in the Halls of Mandos.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elve..._reincarnation

[kenn9530]

It's not confirmed that she knew, but it seems likely that she would have found out. Finrod was reincarnated before the end of the first age, and an entire host of Elves came to Middle Earth from Valinor at the end of the first age. Then, during the second age, elves frequently visited Numenor.

But she will almost definitely find out soon, because Glorfindel, the other reincarnated elf, is about to arrive in middle earth. The rest of what you said, "it was dangerous and many die attempting it, its a reward for exceptional service" is just false nonsense you made up. It's perilous for men, because they aren't allowed to go - there's nothing about it being perilous for elves. And as I've stated earlier, there's simply nothing in the legendarium anywhere that has second age elves going to Valinor as a "reward for exceptional service".

Currently she doesnt know and we dont even know if he is resurrected yet, sauron still did kidnap and kill finrod so all she does currently know is he is dead by the hands of sauron anything else you are just making up because your argument doesnt make sense.

They dont just send any elves whenever they want back to valinor otherwise most elves would probably want to go back, after the sinking of numenor even if you sailed there noone could enter valinor, even the elves dont just go to valinor because they feel like it, so no there is no free travel to valinor, the only ones that do get to go are ones that have performed expectional service, as like frodo and such for thier service, and soldiers completing a long mission, there is no cases when elves just travel because they want to.

[Syegfryed]

Sure elves can "respawn" but there is no given time frame for when that can happen. There is no guarantee that Finrod has already been reincarnated. He could still be in the Halls of Mandos.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elve..._reincarnation

Even if he was not at the time, big IF, still is fucking pointless, his death was pointless, she know he will come back eventually, her revenge i dumb and pointless.

[kenn9530]

All elves do, the ones you mention are the ones who returned to middle earth




Just because it was dangerous doesn't mean they didn't have free travel. the "retirement" was after the place was taken away from the world after numeron attempt of invading.

Not all elves get resurrected, there is a choice and any bad elves might not get the option, plus the elves wouldnt ever return to middle earth, plus re inbodiment is not quick unless the valar want them to be. There is only 2 known cases of reincarnation in the lore of it actually happening.

If there was free travel to and from valinor then galadriel could of just got another boat back instead of swimming some of the way back to middle earth, the trip back to valinor is usually one way, especially after the fall of numenor elves dont have permission to return to middle earth.

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snip

The reaction they have falls inplace with having no experience in fighting a troll, you are trying to make it something its not, there is normal elves and then there is elves like galadriel, the fight just shows there is a clear difference between certain elves.

[Syegfryed]

Not all elves get resurrected, there is a choice and any bad elves might not get the option

you rly flipped back to only two do, to not all, hum? No one chose not to, and there is no bad elves anyway, and they all end up reincarnated eventually, even if they delay.

plus the elves wouldnt ever return to middle earth, plus re inbodiment is not quick unless the valar want them to be. There is only 2 known cases of reincarnation in the lore of it actually happening.

It doesn't matter, his death was not something she would be hellbent on revenge because is pointless, he come back anyway.

And some elves do return to middle earth, we have two examples of it.

If there was free travel to and from valinor then galadriel could of just got another boat back instead of swimming some of the way back to middle earth,

YES, SHE COULD

thts why she jumping to it ws fucking stupid

the trip back to valinor is usually one way, especially after the fall of numenor elves dont have permission to return to middle earth.

And surprise to you, numenor didn't fall yet, so, again, wrong.

[Triceron]

The reaction they have falls inplace with having no experience in fighting a troll, you are trying to make it something its not, there is normal elves and then there is elves like galadriel, the fight just shows there is a clear difference between certain elves.

Yeah. It shows they're completely incompetent and worthless. Just because you don't like the way the show presented it doesn't make it wrong.

If they are inexperienced and facing off the troll instead of tactically retreating, what would you call that? It's incompetence. It's stupidity. It's a misrepresentation of a race that is implied to be highly experienced because of their long lifespans.

There shouldn't be inexperienced Elves at all here, that is the problem with that explanation. It makes the entire military decision to send out inexperienced Elves reflect badly on the entire Elven chain of command. This one scene is a result of a massive failure to acknowledge the elephant in the room that Galadriel would have never realistically been a 'commander of the Elven armies' considering the glaring negligence she has in leading 'inexperienced' troops and realistically, would have gotten them killed much earlier than this single troll scene.

If we consider that it took them a long and hard journey to get to this point, they must have faced stuff worse than a mere snow troll, because Galadriel didn't even break a sweat dealing with it. And if her troops couldn't do anything in that fight, then whatever the reason of faults lie squarely with Galadriel. The show just happened to make this the straw that breaks the camel'a back, while the reality is if she were always treating her troops like this there's no reason why we should believe she legitimately achieved the rank of commander in the first place. Being a skilled fighter does not equal leading troops, that is a big misunderstanding of military chain of command that the writers don't seem to understand.

[Biomega]

Yeah. It shows they're completely incompetent and worthless. Just because you don't like the way the show presented it doesn't make it wrong.

If they are inexperienced and facing off the troll instead of tactically retreating, what would you call that? It's incompetence. It's stupidity. It's a misrepresentation of a race that is implied to be highly experienced because of their long lifespans.

There shouldn't be inexperienced Elves at all here, that is the problem with that explanation.

Are we back to this again? Didn't we talk about this months ago already?

You have no reference point for their combat strength or experience. You have no idea if they're "incompetent or worthless". All you get is their performance IN THIS SITUATION, not a general one. And that situation was established by the narrative and previous shots as one at the end of a grueling trek in inhumane conditions. We've seen them stumble and fall. We've heard them say the cold is so strong it sucks away even the heat of fire. They are at the end of their rope, ready to mutiny against a commander they followed this far.

This performance is shown in extremis. You are seeing them at their worst, and complaining they're not doing well. THAT'S THE POINT. They've had it. They're done. What you're doing is looking at Navy SEALs who've been shipwrecked for a month, dehydrated and exhausted - and then they try to fight and you go "lmao so this is what Navy SEALS are like? What an absolute joke of a unit, how incompetent and worthless the SEALs are!".

The fact that Galadriel herself is different says nothing about THEIR performance, only about HERS - she's the elf of all elves, the literal actual greatest elven woman to ever live (according to the lore). And in addition to that she's fueled by vengeance and driven by anger, to the point where she alone can go on where others falter - something LITERALLY established in a previous shot where she helps one of her troops up.

The entire scene exists precisely to establish her exceptional status: she goes on when others can't, she's stronger than others, she's more driven to succeed than others. The entire function of the troll fight is to set her up as a hero that towers above; to take that as a measuring stick and reverse it to say everyone else is pathetic is not only contrary to elementary storytelling tropes of this kind, it's also seriously misunderstanding how that kind of reasoning operates. Next to an extreme outlier, even the above-average seem mundane. That doesn't mean they are. It just means you need to look to more than just an outlier.

This one scene is a result of a massive failure to acknowledge the elephant in the room that Galadriel would have never realistically been a 'commander of the Elven armies' considering the glaring negligence she has in leading 'inexperienced' troops and realistically, would have gotten them killed much earlier than this single troll scene.

You hinge everything on the verdict of "inexperienced", for which you have no proof. See above, again - your entire measuring stick is a massively skewed performance slice in extremis. You have no baseline. If anything, what the narrative set up DISPROVES your "inexperience" claim, because they've been at this for quite a while. That much is established beforehand. All you're pinning your assertion on is a troop of exhausted, half-frozen, ready-to-give-up fighters who on top of that also got ambushed. You cannot seriously think that is in any way representative of anything remotely resembling a proper assessment of combat strength or combat experience.

If we consider that it took them a long and hard journey to get to this point, they must have faced stuff worse than a mere snow troll, because Galadriel didn't even break a sweat dealing with it.

Galadriel is also THE greatest elven woman in all of Tolkien. If your standard is that the troops don't measure up to the actual literal hero, that is an impossibly high bar by any metric of epic storytelling. The hero towers above others precisely by virtue of being the hero, and is the hero precisely because they tower above others. That's how it works. If you expect something else, you're either in the wrong genre, or you're being ridiculously contrarian.

[Triceron]

You hinge everything on the verdict of "inexperienced", for which you have no proof.

Follow the convo dude .

He says the reason they lost against the trill is because they are inexperienced, and I am throwing that back at him through showing how bogus that explanation would be. This was never MY explanation. It was my RESPONSE to his explanation.

And no, the Navy Seal comparison isn't apt at all, because the Elves aren'r shipwrecked and we're not shown them being highly trained Navy Seals at all. It would be more like rankless troops from a country you never heard of before, where you don't know whether to assume they are highly trained or not. There is nothing establishing their rank or skill level. Nothing.

The only thing the show establishes their skill in is being messed up by a troll and never getting a single shot in. There is no excuse to make implying they are Navy seal level of elite soldier at all. Only Galadriel exhibits any kind of actual skill, with her second in command dude helping her getting some airtime. Everyone else is not shown with any level of competency at all other than climbing cliffs.

In order for anyone to acknowledge them being skilled, the show has to establish this standard first. And what you're arguing has never been established. You're only assuming they are akin to Navy Seals based on your pre-existing expectations of what Elves are. The show itself does NOTHING to establish this for itself, and the first time we see Elves fight in this series is by being completely worthless. That is how the show establishes them.

Cuz as much as we can mock Stormtroopers for being incompetent or missing their shots, A New Hope didn't establish them as being bumbling or incompetent at all. The first scene we have with them establishes them as a legitimate force to be reckoned with, and they are mowing down rebels and clearing the path for Vader. That is how it needs to be set. Anything after that, it doesn't matter how bad Stormtroopers are, you can't fault them for being completely incompetent, because the opening establishes them as being capable and that overall theme of being a legitimate threat gets carried through the rest of the series.

Just because Vader is way way more powerful than Stormtroopers doesn't mean we needed a scene that contrasts his fighting skill in taking out rebels while the stormtroopers are shown missing and getting themselves killed until Vader arrives. See the difference here? You can establish Galadriel being skilled snd being a good commander without downplaying the skill of the other Elves. Even the Fellowship Cave Troll fight has everyone showing their skills even if Legolas is clearly one of the more skillful combatants here. The skill gap doesn't have to come at the cost of making others look bad.

The opposite happened in Rings of Power, and your idea that they are highly skilled is heavily influenced by the LOTR movies, not this show. Watch the first episode again without preconceptions, as if you never even heard of an Elf. You will see how loosely threaded it actually is.

[kenn9530]

you rly flipped back to only two do, to not all, hum? No one chose not to, and there is no bad elves anyway, and they all end up reincarnated eventually, even if they delay.



It doesn't matter, his death was not something she would be hellbent on revenge because is pointless, he come back anyway.

And some elves do return to middle earth, we have two examples of it.



YES, SHE COULD

thts why she jumping to it ws fucking stupid


And surprise to you, numenor didn't fall yet, so, again, wrong.

We only know of 2 elves that have been reincarnated, the lore doesnt say any other elves had been reincarnated so you have nothing backing you up, no bad elves then what are the orcs, there is plenty of elves that could be denied reincarnation.

They cant the lore does not back you up at all, travel is not just jumping on a ship and you get there, there is no cases of just freely traveling to valinor. For one the distance makes it not suitable for just normal travel and past the first age you needed permission to get there, its a 7000 mile journey so it takes at min several months, numenor is probably days or weeks away from valinor.

[Triceron]

Galadriel is also THE greatest elven woman in all of Tolkien. If your standard is that the troops don't measure up to the actual literal hero, that is an impossibly high bar by any metric of epic storytelling. The hero towers above others precisely by virtue of being the hero, and is the hero precisely because they tower above others. That's how it works. If you expect something else, you're either in the wrong genre, or you're being ridiculously contrarian.

The show does a TERRIBLE way of conveying this information in any believable way. It'a completely contrived and not believable at all, because the 'greatest elven woman' ends up being more lucky than skillful when you consider most of her journey in Rings of Power is a matter of happenstance than a result of her talent.

How did she find the information on Sauron's map? Care to explain how the story came to her revelation? Care to enlightenment me how her greatness lead to her finding this information? You can't, because she lucked her way into it completely. If Elendil were anyone other than a Faithful, she would've been fucked.

[kenn9530]

Yeah. It shows they're completely incompetent and worthless. Just because you don't like the way the show presented it doesn't make it wrong.

If they are inexperienced and facing off the troll instead of tactically retreating, what would you call that? It's incompetence. It's stupidity. It's a misrepresentation of a race that is implied to be highly experienced because of their long lifespans.

There shouldn't be inexperienced Elves at all here, that is the problem with that explanation. It makes the entire military decision to send out inexperienced Elves reflect badly on the entire Elven chain of command. This one scene is a result of a massive failure to acknowledge the elephant in the room that Galadriel would have never realistically been a 'commander of the Elven armies' considering the glaring negligence she has in leading 'inexperienced' troops and realistically, would have gotten them killed much earlier than this single troll scene.

If we consider that it took them a long and hard journey to get to this point, they must have faced stuff worse than a mere snow troll, because Galadriel didn't even break a sweat dealing with it. And if her troops couldn't do anything in that fight, then whatever the reason of faults lie squarely with Galadriel. The show just happened to make this the straw that breaks the camel'a back, while the reality is if she were always treating her troops like this there's no reason why we should believe she legitimately achieved the rank of commander in the first place. Being a skilled fighter does not equal leading troops, that is a big misunderstanding of military chain of command that the writers don't seem to understand.

Elves can make mistakes they are not perfect, you have put them on a high pedestal when most elves are clearly not that much better than the race of men, the fight with the troll was to show of galadriels combat skills, the other elves didnt even get a chance to do anything so your whole argument about it is pointless.

The way the story is told is they have not found anything until the moment they found the ice castle, so its very likely they have not encountered any trolls, orcs or anything as most are trying to make mordor, middle earth is huge and most of saurons army was destroyed in the war, you are just grasping at straws because you simply dont like something.

[loras]

So eh, was it as bad as was feared?
As good as was hoped?

Kinda seems to have died a silent death here, implyong the former in terms of reception at least.

[Triceron]

Elves can make mistakes they are not perfect, you have put them on a high pedestal when most elves are clearly not that much better than the race of men, the fight with the troll was to show of galadriels combat skills, the other elves didnt even get a chance to do anything so your whole argument about it is pointless.

The way the story is told is they have not found anything until the moment they found the ice castle, so its very likely they have not encountered any trolls, orcs or anything as most are trying to make mordor, middle earth is huge and most of saurons army was destroyed in the war, you are just grasping at straws because you simply dont like something.

I didn't say they can't make mistakes or that they don't. They absolutely do. But there are still fundamental rules to story telling that should be followed in order to give the audience a cohesive understanding of everything that the story is intending to tell.

If this is a case of Elves being pushed to their limit and losing a fight because of exhaustion, the story needs to establish what skill level they would or could be at if they weren't exhausted to give a contrast and understanding of their position. And that contrast can't be from Galadriel, since we're already establishing she is no normal Elf, she's already far superior in physical prowess as shown by her climbing and ability to withstand fatigue in harsh elements. She is on a different level, and that's fine.

The problem comes from there being no standard to understand what level of skill any other Elf has other than veing able to climb. They did nothing else of note. Are they good scouts? Well Galadriel ended up being the one who found the tower and secret entrance into it. Are they experienced and aware of their surroundings? Well, Galadriel seemed to be the only one showing any of that, even going out of her way to explain that evil was causing the torches to lose their heat. Like, the show did nothing to establish the Elves contributing anything in the entire scene. And that is their ONLY moment to shine considering the show sets them off to Valinor and that is the last we ever see of them. There is never any moment to see them doing anything constructive. By all means, they held Galadriel back and the show did nothing to establish why she even needs them. There is no explanation here.

Our understanding of the skill and capabilities of the Elves doesn't come from Rings of Power. It comes from the Lord of the Rings movies. Everything cool about Elves is completely absent in the first episode of RoP, which means the story did a poor job of conveying what an Elf is and what they are capable of to anyone who hasn't watched LOTR before. That's poor storytelling.

[Syegfryed]

We only know of 2 elves that have been reincarnated, the lore doesnt say any other elves had been reincarnated so you have nothing backing you up, no bad elves then what are the orcs, there is plenty of elves that could be denied reincarnation.

You literally have lore saying what happens to then

the two you mention are the ones who return to middle earth, you want to claim i don't know the lore but you know shit.

They cant the lore does not back you up at all

It literally happened more than once.

travel is not just jumping on a ship and you get there, there is no cases of just freely traveling to valinor.

Yes there is, only after the fall of numenor that they stop doing it so freely.

For one the distance makes it not suitable for just normal travel

If Galadriel can swim to the other continent the ships can do it m8

and past the first age you needed permission to get there

That is something made up from the show, only other races need permission, some elves could not do it - a temporary ban - because the doom of the noldor, or some shenanigan like that, but GUESS WHAT, that does not happen in the show, the noldor does not slaughter the Telari to get their ships and travel to middle earth

its a 7000 mile journey so it takes at min several months

And she just jump to swim 7000 miles for several months

Is she retarded or just suicidal, you tell me. No, in fact, you don't need to, every time you try to explain you make things worse

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So eh, was it as bad as was feared?
As good as was hoped?

Kinda seems to have died a silent death here, implyong the former in terms of reception at least.

It was much, much worse, in every aspect you can imagine