Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[AcidicSyn]

I agree that there is a level of internal world consistency at play, and that certain races should definitely be of a certain look and appearance relative to where they live. Tolkien himself admits this in external sources, that 'Middle-Earth' is supposed to represent northwestern europe, while other humans of various skin colors and looks populate lands to the east and south.

But honestly speaking, when it comes to expanding fictional worlds beyond what the author intended, there are always exceptions to the rules, and the exceptions often drive entire storylines. Cuz sure, Elves and Dwarves could be at war with each other during the Second Age, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be exceptions to the rules. After all, deep-rooted conflicts haven't ever stopped romances from happening in stories. We're just talking about an untold West Side Story with Elves and Dwarves.

Exception to this is, the group of dwarves referred to as Durins Folk (The Longbeards), who, based in Moria (Gundabad originally), had friendly relations with the elves, and did not war with them. (The freakin password to their door is in elvish.....)

In fact, during the second age the Dwarves of Moria were closer than ever with the elves....

The war between dwarves and elves was when the nogrod dwarves stole the silmaril, first age. There should be no mention of war between elves and dwarves in this series if its supposed to be second age.

[Nurasu]

They didn't have a "minority black population"; there is no such thing as "minority black population" within the Numenorean society. Beor wasn't black in what is the physiological appearance of a black man in our real world, his sons weren't black and his people weren't black. You're confusing a group within a people from a fantasy setting and minority descriptions from real life. Just because their house were a minority(in terms of numbers) that lived in a specific part of Numenor, that doesn't mean they all of a sudden looked like the black people from Africa or the US.

They were Numenoreans, with some having a darker skin and some having darker hair. Other than that, they looked exactly like fair-skinned Numenoreans. A black actor wouldn't fit the shoes of Beor, his descendants or anyone else down the line of his people.

It's interesting then that he uses the word swarthy to describe some of Beor's descendants (again, they ranged from fair to swarthy) and the Easterlings, who I think we can agree are based on Africans. I'm not saying all of House Beor was black, or that he was black, I'm saying Tolkien created black characters out of his lineage and they went on to settle Numenor with their relatives.

I'm also not even saying I'm explicitly correct in my interpretation, only that the door is left open for creative license here. It's not as set in stone as you make it seem with your first comment here.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

He described their various beard colors, but never their skin color, no.

Damn thats so incredibly damning for so so many of the people upset about skin colour and trying to hide because lore accuracy.

[Dhrizzle]

tell me where i said, please make it as big and bold as you possibly can where i said in any version of the legendarium that he is shown to be that, i said he is stereotypically DEPICTED AS being the old white haired and bearded man that is most often used as a DEPICTION of the Judaeo-Christian image of 'God', i'm fully fucking aware that his presence is never seen in any form by any creature in the Tolkein universe, i'm also fully aware of what elves in middle earth are like, i'm aware of the fact that such are their deep emotional connections that they can quite literally die of heartbreak, they can feel pain when they see something also in pain, the whole fucking point of the black speech was to cause elves physical and emotional pain whenever they heard it as a bastardisation of their language by Sauron, would you care to add anything further or have i made my point?

Wait, so when you said that elves

were fashioned and moulded in the image of their creator, the one and only god of the Tolklein universe, Eru Illuvatar, who was always depicted as the stereotypical elderly white man with flowing white hair and beard,

you said that knowing full well that it was never in Tolkien's works and was something you basically made up? And we're supposed to trust anything you say on the matter when you just happily (well ANGRILY) admitted you're more than willing to just make stuff up?

Now if you do know this stuff about elves being magical and being affected by their environments, why are you still going on about "genes" and "biology?" It's genetically and biologically impossible for a creature to become mightier just by visiting a place with some trees and falling in love with an angel, and yet we have Thingol so maybe "genetic and biological impossibilities" aren't quite the amazing trump card you think they are.

[wombinator04]

I'm the most offended by the beardless Dwarf woman. HOW DARE THEY PUT A BEARD ON HER NOW!

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It's probably the same magic that allows Jesus to be depicted as a white man.

and that Santa can’t be black.

[rogoth]

It's interesting then that he uses the word swarthy to describe some of Beor's descendants (again, they ranged from fair to swarthy) and the Easterlings, who I think we can agree are based on Africans. I'm not saying all of House Beor was black, or that he was black, I'm saying Tolkien created black characters out of his lineage and they went on to settle Numenor with their relatives.

I'm also not even saying I'm explicitly correct in my interpretation, only that the door is left open for creative license here. It's not as set in stone as you make it seem with your first comment here.

the 'easterlings' and peoples of Rhun are meant to reflect those living in turkey/arabia, literally nothing whatsoever to do with reflecting anything from Africa aside from maybe modern day morocco/Algeria etc.

[Triceron]

and that Santa can’t be black.

We all know he's Asian

[Nurasu]

the 'easterlings' and peoples of Rhun are meant to reflect those living in turkey/arabia, literally nothing whatsoever to do with reflecting anything from Africa aside from maybe modern day morocco/Algeria etc.

I guess I can see that; I always pictured them as more Northern African or maybe even Indian.

[Triceron]

I'm the most offended by the beardless Dwarf woman. HOW DARE THEY PUT A BEARD ON HER NOW!

Hmm, looking at a higher res image, it does look like she's got mutton chops.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lo...20220210174335

[rogoth]

Wait, so when you said that elves

you said that knowing full well that it was never in Tolkien's works and was something you basically made up? And we're supposed to trust anything you say on the matter when you just happily (well ANGRILY) admitted you're more than willing to just make stuff up?

Now if you do know this stuff about elves being magical and being affected by their environments, why are you still going on about "genes" and "biology?" It's genetically and biologically impossible for a creature to become mightier just by visiting a place with some trees and falling in love with an angel, and yet we have Thingol so maybe "genetic and biological impossibilities" aren't quite the amazing trump card you think they are.

do me a favour, take a second to read what i wrote in response to the topic of genetics, i said clearly and without reservation that i'm applying 'real world' genetics laws to these token characters that shouldn't exist, furthermore, i also said that i'm happy to use ANY AND ALL real world systems and logic to emphasise my point after the executive producer of this shitfest stated as part of the article on vanity fair, that the show should 'reflect what the world looks like', meaning that the original author who wrote these stories to ESCAPE from the real world and the 'Americanisation' of his home, the destruction of natural beauty replaced by grotesque buildings and machinery that in his eye had no place and didn't belong, have gone full circle and want to reflect the real world instead?, please explain to me how you justify that bullshit? because i really wanna know what level of mental gymnastics i must perform to comprehend such idiocy, as for your 'because magic duh' arguement, the one true god of this universe created beings who are known to be shape shifters, by extension that means he himself is also a shapeshifter, meaning that his image of himself could be what the elves look like while his actual appearance could have been the stereotypical judeao-christian image of god, and to dwarves his true image is that of Durin I, or to some other race his visage is that of something they also revere, see where i'm going with this?, please stop trying to take some imaginary high ground and looking down holier than thou, try again when you have a legitimate arguement until then, stop wasting mine and everyone else's time and energy.

[AcidicSyn]

Damn thats so incredibly damning for so so many of the people upset about skin colour and trying to hide because lore accuracy.

There are also two dwarven clans that originated in the east. Interpret that how you will.

[rogoth]

We all know he's Asian

akshully i think you'll find he's a mid transition latino woman /s

[Dhrizzle]

do me a favour, take a second to read what i wrote in response to the topic of genetics, i said clearly and without reservation that i'm applying 'real world' genetics laws to these token characters that shouldn't exist, furthermore, i also said that i'm happy to use ANY AND ALL real world systems and logic to emphasise my point after the executive producer of this shitfest stated as part of the article on vanity fair, that the show should 'reflect what the world looks like', meaning that the original author who wrote these stories to ESCAPE from the real world and the 'Americanisation' of his home, the destruction of natural beauty replaced by grotesque buildings and machinery that in his eye had no place and didn't belong, have gone full circle and want to reflect the real world instead?, please explain to me how you justify that bullshit? because i really wanna know what level of mental gymnastics i must perform to comprehend such idiocy, as for your 'because magic duh' arguement, the one true god of this universe created beings who are known to be shape shifters, by extension that means he himself is also a shapeshifter, meaning that his image of himself could be what the elves look like while his actual appearance could have been the stereotypical judeao-christian image of god, and to dwarves his true image is that of Durin I, or to some other race his visage is that of something they also revere, see where i'm going with this?, please stop trying to take some imaginary high ground and looking down holier than thou, try again when you have a legitimate arguement until then, stop wasting mine and everyone else's time and energy.

So someone said they wanted the cast of a TV show they were making to reflect how people look in society and you took that as license to apply completely irrelevant bollocks to Tolkien's work as well as inventing a load of shit about Eru Illuvatar, and we're supposed to take you even remotely seriously?

[Nurasu]

akshully i think you'll find he's a mid transition latino woman /s

Could be an entertaining movie. I certainly wouldn't spurn it for the casting alone. Obviously there should be a higher degree of care with LoTR than Santa at this point, but I think they've mostly stayed within Tolkien's lines for the casting so far.

[Triceron]

the one true god of this universe created beings who are known to be shape shifters, by extension that means he himself is also a shapeshifter, meaning that his image of himself could be what the elves look like while his actual appearance could have been the stereotypical judeao-christian image of god, and to dwarves his true image is that of Durin I, or to some other race his visage is that of something they also revere, see where i'm going with this?

To be fair, Eru has never had a physical description, and all art depictions of him are simply interpretations. Adaptations.

And if we're talking about him as a shape-shifting or formless entity who creates beings 'in his form', then we have a basis for a canonical explanation for why Black Elves could exist. He's literally formless, and simply created the Elves as he wills it.

Is the creation of Black skinned Elves canon to what we know in Simlarillion and LOTR? No, it is not. But neither is this whole explanation of what Eru actually looks like, or his roots in judeao-christian depictions of god. These aren't canonical to the actual Lord of the Rings universe, therefore can not be used to rule out why Black Elves shouldn't exist in a particular telling of stories during that period of time, in that particular place in Middle-Earth, to that race of Elves.

Either way, it's debating non-canon Rings of Power using non-canon reasons for why they shouldn't exist.

[Magnagarde]

It's interesting then that he uses the word swarthy to describe some of Beor's descendants (again, they ranged from fair to swarthy) and the Easterlings, who I think we can agree are based on Africans. I'm not saying all of House Beor was black, or that he was black, I'm saying Tolkien created black characters out of his lineage and they went on to settle Numenor with their relatives.

I'm also not even saying I'm explicitly correct in my interpretation, only that the door is left open for creative license here. It's not as set in stone as you make it seem with your first comment here.

Swarthy is simply a dark complexion, not different physical appearance; this means that a descendant of the Numenoreans wouldn't look like a black person from the US; they'd only have darker skin complexion and dark hair, boarder face perhaps too. The Haradrim are one of the few groups whom the actor would match. If this actor is a descendant of the Numenoreans and if we assume that his dark skin is seemingly the only trait that he inherited from his ancient lineage, then the future representation of Numenoreans would mean they would most likely look like fair-skinned Africans with blonde hair. They could've at least picked a very tall black actor in that case.

I appreciate your creative explanation. Part of being a fan is creating reasoning to make it fit together and that is the message I'm getting from you. I find myself in the same position when it comes to works of fiction that I'm into. I simply find the chances that a person with real life African physical appearance finds himself in the environment the show's creators are putting the one from the trailer into is practically next to impossible.

This is why I brought up the Haradrim. It would please lore purists and it would please those seeking representation of real life races in popular fiction. For some reason it's getting more and more popular to put the fictionally improbable into works of fiction; I believe these discussions drive the marketing and is the real reason behind these choices.

[Nurasu]

For some reason it's getting more and more popular to put the fictionally improbable into works of fiction; I believe these discussions drive the marketing and is the real reason behind these choices.

It certainly could be the reason, but I also think there's something to be said for being able to see yourself in the media you're consuming. Developing more intricate stories for the Haradrim probably would have been the better way to do that; in the absence of that though, I think there's room to introduce a few interesting, diverse characters in the existing framework of what they're already doing. We'll see how the writing goes from there, though; that's the key element.

[bledgor]

This is why I brought up the Haradrim. It would please lore purists and it would please those seeking representation of real life races in popular fiction. For some reason it's getting more and more popular to put the fictionally improbable into works of fiction; I believe these discussions drive the marketing and is the real reason behind these choices.

For now, but I sure there are others like myself that will stop watching (I doubt I watch this) as they bastardize lore just to insert some message from the producers instead of staying true to the author/book. The worst part is they had a window with the Haradrim to get the same end result without messing around lore (though battle warrior Galadrial is still a faceplam, along with short haired elves and the lack of Celebron).

It certainly could be the reason, but I also think there's something to be said for being able to see yourself in the media you're consuming. Developing more intricate stories for the Haradrim probably would have been the better way to do that; in the absence of that though, I think there's room to introduce a few interesting, diverse characters in the existing framework of what they're already doing. We'll see how the writing goes from there, though; that's the key element.

Then do it logically, forcefully shoe horning in shit like they have presented just turns me off, instead of doing a more lore based development of the Haradrim. To me this tells me the producers care more about THEIR message than the product/lore they are adapting, which I as a consumer want to see a faithful adaptation, as it is what I enjoyed, not whatever bullshit message Hollywood is trying to peddle to me this week.

[Magnagarde]

It certainly could be the reason, but I also think there's something to be said for being able to see yourself in the media you're consuming. Developing more intricate stories for the Haradrim probably would have been the better way to do that; in the absence of that though, I think there's room to introduce a few interesting, diverse characters in the existing framework of what they're already doing. We'll see how the writing goes from there, though; that's the key element.

Despite being non-canon, I think that Middle Earth: Shadow of War handled this with more care and attention. Baranor and his story were great.

- - - Updated - - -

For now, but I sure there are others like myself that will stop watching (I doubt I watch this) as they bastardize lore just to insert some message from the producers instead of staying true to the author/book. The worst part is they had a window with the Haradrim to get the same end result without messing around lore (though battle warrior Galadrial is still a faceplam, along with short haired elves and the lack of Celebron).



Then do it logically, forcefully shoe horning in shit like they have presented just turns me off, instead of doing a more lore based development of the Haradrim. To me this tells me the producers care more about THEIR message than the product/lore they are adapting, which I as a consumer want to see a faithful adaptation, as it is what I enjoyed, not whatever bullshit message Hollywood is trying to peddle to me this week.

I absolutely agree with your take. I'm in favour of faithful adaptations of the original sources just like you. Real life messages and representation should have no place in works of fiction because that simply defies the definition behind the work's nature. I think the same of historic dramas and works of entertainment based on historically accurate characters, events and well-known historic facts. I wouldn't want a white emperor of Mali or a black Napoleon either.