Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

That doesn't mean that Lord of the Rings is an allegory for WW1.

The "They took our jobs" scene in Rings of Power wasn't written by Tolkien though.

[rhorle]

It was something they totally made up for the show, does not make sense in the universe and it was not the reason why the numenorians "disliked" the elves, they consciously changed what tolkien meant to put an alegory.

The divide between The Faithful and The Kings Men indicates a general animosity against the Elves. That can easily translate into what we saw. If you include the knowledge of potentially manipulation by Sauron it fits perfectly well. The Elves don't need to sleep and have physical strengths over men, even those gifted like the Numenoreans. Competition for crafting and sailing fits.

[Syegfryed]

The divide between The Faithful and The Kings Men indicates a general animosity against the Elves. That can easily translate into what we saw. If you include the knowledge of potentially manipulation by Sauron it fits perfectly well. The Elves don't need to sleep and have physical strengths over men, even those gifted like the Numenoreans. Competition for crafting and sailing fits.

What manipulation by sauron, he didn't do shit, they cut that out from the show, lmao

No, it doesn't fit, is nonsense headcanon and an allegory. Numenoreans are as stronger or more than elves, they were so powerful they invaded god's land, they would give two shits about "elves stealing our jerbs"

[rhorle]

What manipulation by sauron, he didn't do shit, they cut that out from the show, lmao[/I]

The guy giving the speech is the same one that got his butt kicked by who we later learned was Sauron. There was even shadowy special effects during the fight sequence. Are you saying Sauron is not powerful enough to manipulate a person?

Numenorians still had to sleep. Tolkien said elves have the greatest talent for making and discovery due to their connection to their soul. Numenoreans were gifted things to make them equal to elves in some regards but they were still weaker in some others. Just as in general Men could be stronger in some aspects. People care about silly things all the time. The "commoners" of Numenor still had to work and feed their families, right? You don't think they would be upset if elves started to take things over after such a long absence? Even more so if they were aligned with the "Kings Men" that already have been denigrating anything elvish?

[Triceron]

So Rhorle isn't following the story at all with that explanation because the story actually tried to paint Halbrand as a sympathetic underdog trying to start a new life at that point in Numenor, with no ambitions like he ended up having by the end. He even reinforces this in his explanation to Galadriel that he'd pretty much given up before he met her, and this story plays out pretty straight as him being forced to act against his own intent to start fresh when he attacks the Numenoreans.

So to now say he manipulated the Numenoreans as though it was his intent and plan all along is actually against the story being told, because we know that wasn't what he intended to do at all. If he could manipulate them easily he wouldn't have had to fight them at all nor would he have gotten jailed for it.

[Rennadrel]

The "They took our jobs" scene in Rings of Power wasn't written by Tolkien though.

I literally thought that was an attempt at trying to spoof on South Park

[Dhrizzle]

Sure there is a difference, but the scene he mention is a straight up alegory, not inspiration.

It was something they totally made up for the show, does not make sense in the universe and it was not the reason why the numenorians "disliked" the elves, they consciously changed what tolkien meant to put an alegory.

Erm, what do you think allegory is?

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The "They took our jobs" scene in Rings of Power wasn't written by Tolkien though.

So? His explanation can apply to other writers too...

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So Rhorle isn't following the story at all with that explanation because the story actually tried to paint Halbrand as a sympathetic underdog trying to start a new life at that point in Numenor, with no ambitions like he ended up having by the end. He even reinforces this in his explanation to Galadriel that he'd pretty much given up before he met her, and this story plays out pretty straight as him being forced to act against his own intent to start fresh when he attacks the Numenoreans.

So to now say he manipulated the Numenoreans as though it was his intent and plan all along is actually against the story being told, because we know that wasn't what he intended to do at all. If he could manipulate them easily he wouldn't have had to fight them at all nor would he have gotten jailed for it.

It isn't totally out of character for Sauron to get his ass kicked by Numenoreans, end up a prisoner and use that position to manipulate events.

[Triceron]

So? His explanation can apply to other writers too...

And it can be. But it's not relevant here, since he wasn't speaking out on behalf of the RoP writers.

It isn't totally out of character for Sauron to get his ass kicked by Numenoreans, end up a prisoner and use that position to manipulate events.

You're right, it isn't totally out of character if that's what happened.

It's not what happened though if you actually follow the story. Just like you could say it's not out of his character to manipulate every event that lead to creating Mt. Doom's eruption. That's not what happened either, and he didn't have any direct influence over those events at all as far as the story was told. He even intentionally tried to stop Adar for the sake of vengeance. There's no suggestion at all that he would have known the key to turn the Southlands into Mordor was in motion, nor was the story intended to show that he manipulated events to allow Waldreg to carry out Adar's plans.

The show does nothing to link his actions leading directly to causing the Numenorean revolt. I mean, can you even show any evidence from the show to even suggest this? There's nothing but pure speculation there, since they never show or imply he had any influence outside of the Numenor prison when he was there.

[Syegfryed]

The guy giving the speech is the same one that got his butt kicked by who we later learned was Sauron. There was even shadowy special effects during the fight sequence. Are you saying Sauron is not powerful enough to manipulate a person?

Are you for real? you are not even attemping to make an argument at this point right? he didn't manipulate shit, lmao.

Numenorians still had to sleep. Tolkien said elves have the greatest talent for making and discovery due to their connection to their soul. Numenoreans were gifted things to make them equal to elves in some regards but they were still weaker in some others. Just as in general Men could be stronger in some aspects. People care about silly things all the time. The "commoners" of Numenor still had to work and feed their families, right? You don't think they would be upset if elves started to take things over after such a long absence? Even more so if they were aligned with the "Kings Men" that already have been denigrating anything elvish?

Do you also realize they were complaining about Hallbrand taking their jobs? people from the mainland? not just elves?

The fact you are trying to defend this allegory bullshit nonsense is baffling, numenor was the peak civilization at that moment, they would not be upset or scared about "elves taking their jobs" its competely obnoxiously nonsense, because why the fuck would elves get away from their own territories to work for humans?

Its bad enough the showrunners put that into play, but to defend this, holy jesus

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Erm, what do you think allegory is?

Do you? cause it seems you know but you pretend you don't,

YOr are you unironicaly saying this was just an "inspiration of real world events"? wink wink

[rhorle]

Are you for real? you are not even attemping to make an argument at this point right? he didn't manipulate shit, lmao.

You don't know that. It is a possibility.

Do you also realize they were complaining about Hallbrand taking their jobs? people from the mainland? not just elves?

Who came with the elf. Elf-friendly humans trying to do things they haven't earned. People complain about this stuff all the time in the real world that it is a little strange you think it is foreign to Tolkien's world. Have his humans been shown to be vastly different from real life behavior? There are a lot of things that Tolkien didn't cover because it was too mundane.

The "peak" on the show is the Kings Men on the cusp of total domination of politics and life. You know the faction that dislikes the elves and anything to do with them. It fits that the people of the island would dislike elves and things associated with them. The elves wouldn't be working for humans lmao. The elves would take over the jobs and do it themselves or have their "servants" work for them. It is strange for one so critical of "they took our jobs" to not actually understand anything behind it.

[Syegfryed]

You don't know that. It is a possibility.

Unless they retcon their own show, which is much a possibility seeing how they will change the showrunners, no it wasn't

Who came with the elf. Elf-friendly humans trying to do things they haven't earned. People complain about this stuff all the time in the real world that it is a little strange you think it is foreign to Tolkien's world. Have his humans been shown to be vastly different from real life behavior? There are a lot of things that Tolkien didn't cover because it was too mundane.

Yeah, in real world, thats why is n allegory to real world events, and not rly in tolkien world.

It makes no sense because numenorians are powerful and mighty and their nation was so greater they invaded god's land, and you think the fear of "losing their jerbs" because ONE elf show up in their shore? this is bad storytelling, bad writing.

[rhorle]

Unless they retcon their own show, which is much a possibility seeing how they will change the showrunners, no it wasn't

Why would it be a retcon? Do you even know what that word means? They never stated that Sauron/Halbrand did not manipulate them. So it wouldn't be retroactively changing canon in order to be a thing. It just happened off-screen. The scene does have him using "magic" which could have been the point of manipulation.

It makes no sense because numenorians are powerful and mighty and their nation was so greater they invaded god's land, and you think the fear of "losing their jerbs" because ONE elf show up in their shore? this is bad storytelling, bad writing.

And yet they still grew to dislike the elves. Their two factions divided along "liking elves" and "not liking elves". It wasn't one elf showing up. It was a human, that arrived with the elf, trying to get a guild badge with out having earned it. A human that had special status because he was a friend of the elf. A human that then beat up the guy who gave the speech. You don't see why he would be angry and worried about his job being taken if the elf-friend human can just waltz in and disrupt the "natural order" of society

[Dhrizzle]

Do you? cause it seems you know but you pretend you don't,

I asked what do you think an allegory is, not if you knew what an allegory is.

YOr are you unironicaly saying this was just an "inspiration of real world events"? wink wink

It feels like I'm missing half of the conversation here. Why not try explaining what allegory is being told here and we'll see if I agree.

[Syegfryed]

I asked what do you think an allegory is, not if you knew what an allegory is.



It feels like I'm missing half of the conversation here. Why not try explaining what allegory is being told here and we'll see if I agree.

You know what it is, you don't need me to lecture it about it.

If you are trying to raise smartass point about "you don't know what it is, thats why im asking you to explain what it is" then you are losing your time cause im not going to bite it.

[Dhrizzle]

You know what it is, you don't need me to lecture it about it.

If you are trying to raise smartass point about "you don't know what it is, thats why im asking you to explain what it is" then you are losing your time cause im not going to bite it.

Honestly that's just sad.

[Triceron]

Honestly that's just sad.

So is the implication that Sauron planned it all simply based on it being possible

Same twisted logic could apply to saying Galadriel planned Mount Doom to happen because it's possible and no one knows for sure if she didn't. It would be outright ignoring the story to imply these baseless conspiracy theories.

Not sure why you guys are even trying to defend this point since it clearly wasn't in the story at all, nor does it make sense in any context of Rings of Power's plot.

[Kumorii]

So is the implication that Sauron planned it all simply based on it being possible

Same twisted logic could apply to saying Galadriel planned Mount Doom to happen because it's possible and no one knows for sure if she didn't. It would be outright ignoring the story to imply these baseless conspiracy theories.

Not sure why you guys are even trying to defend this point since it clearly wasn't in the story at all, nor does it make sense in any context of Rings of Power's plot.

It's not about defending, it's about making sure the other guy is wrong no matter what.

[Dhrizzle]

So is the implication that Sauron planned it all simply based on it being possible

Same twisted logic could apply to saying Galadriel planned Mount Doom to happen because it's possible and no one knows for sure if she didn't. It would be outright ignoring the story to imply these baseless conspiracy theories.

Not sure why you guys are even trying to defend this point since it clearly wasn't in the story at all, nor does it make sense in any context of Rings of Power's plot.

I haven't mulled over Rhorle's suggestion, though Sauron in Tolkien's work is known for appearing in a fair guise to manipulate events during the Second Age, so I'm not really aiming to defend it much. I was just wondering what @Syegfryed thought he was talking about with his references to allegory, though it's clear now he has no more clue than I do.

Although let's reexamine how silly your example is. Sauron is known as a shape-shifter and manipulator so Rhorle's idea isn't out of character for him. Galadriel on the other hand rarely explodes volcanoes. In fact I don't think does it in any of the publishers works.

[Triceron]

Although let's reexamine how silly your example is. Sauron is known as a shape-shifter and manipulator so Rhorle's idea isn't out of character for him. Galadriel on the other hand rarely explodes volcanoes. In fact I don't think does it in any of the publishers works.

Put it into context of the show, as if he were a shapeshifter

Why would he get himself put in jail in the first place when it serves him no purpose? As a agaoeshifter he could manipulate himself into position in the crafters guild no problem, avoid the interaction with the guildsmen completely and not resort to assaulting them.

That's what would make sense if he were actively shapeshifting at will. Instead, the story is depicting him in a specific form without implying he can shapeshift right now at all. That is how the plot and story is presented, and even falls in line with Tolkien's own depiction of Annatar taking on a specific form and not merely shapeshifting at will at any given time.

Again, explain in the context of the show if you're going to humor the explanation, not correlations drawn from material outside of the story. Halbrand is not Annatar. He is a completely newly invented form of Sauron that we have mot seen before, characterized in a way that is not intended by Tolkien, merely i spired by his works. And the show has done very little to bridge in his true motivations onto the subtext of the plot, even if you take his actions into account retrospectively

Give the show a watch again. Does Halbrand manipulating the Numenoreans by beating them up and getting imprisoned actually make sense, even if he was a shapeshifting manipulator? In my opinion it doesn't in the context of the show, and Halbrand/Sauron was not entirely confident in even going back to Mordor or starting a war at the time he was in Numenor with Galadriel. The Numenoreans acted on their own volition since the show even explains they have a 'hatred' of Elves yet conveniently still brought them to Numenor.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Give the show a watch again. Does Halbrand manipulating the Numenoreans by beating them up and getting imprisoned actually make sense, even if he was a shapeshifting manipulator? In my opinion it doesn't in the context of the show, and Halbrand/Sauron was not entirely confident in even going back to Mordor or starting a war at the time he was in Numenor with Galadriel. The Numenoreans acted on their own volition since the show even explains they have a 'hatred' of Elves yet conveniently still brought them to Numenor.

Not sure where I fall on this actually being manipulation or not but wouldn’t his actions line up fine if it was to enrage them?

First he steals a badge so he could work, then beats up multiple smiths humiliating them, then gets out of jail with no punishment and they let him smith likely against the other guild members wishes.

It doesn’t really line up with him wanting to be a good boy but you could argue that the foundations are there, though they wouldn’t really apply to elfs at all.