1. #8161
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    19,826
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Don’t need to pretend.
    and in the end, my words were true, as they don't say if its 100m watching from start to finish. just 100m views, questionable at best

  2. #8162
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,770
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Is there a lot of speculation? Sure. But with some simply napkin math and using your brain, you can get a rough picture. It's also fun to speculate.
    We don't know plus we don't know is "a rough picture". There is no napkin math that can be done to come to any conclusion about how much money the show made for Amazon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    and in the end, my words were true, as they don't say if its 100m watching from start to finish. just 100m views, questionable at best
    Has any show ever stated views were start to finish?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  3. #8163
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There is no amount of reasoning that can say the show lost money. Because you don't have access to that kind of information. You even said a week or two ago that 100 million views can't be used to say anything about the show because we don't have any supporting information. Yet here you are drawing a conclusion that perfectly fits your bias. Strange, right?

    Why isn't it reasonable that 100 million accounts viewed the show? Do you know that Amazons metric didn't exclude account sharing already? This is an example of your bias forming the narrative you want when no such data exists. It is strange how you say I'm using wishful thinking when that is exactly what you are doing yourself. Wishful thinking that is negative.

    New subscriptions is not the only way to make money for amazon. It is quite strange that your "reasoning" excludes existing customers as well from Amazon's calculations. In fact it shows how you are setting up the parameters for failure from the get go. Because new customers will almost always be dwarfed by existing customers. The other amusing thing is you have nothing what so ever to back up your claims other then "I said so".

    Amazon didn't tell us how many new subs Man in the High Castle received. It was leaked. Did you not actually read and comprehend the article I linked? That right there calls into question your ability to reason on this subject and shows that you are just out to confirm your own bias on the opinion of the show and nothing else. They haven't done it for Rings of Power because they rarely do. Amazon is secretive about most of their numbers. Even total subscribers has rarely been stated and that likely only recently happened because of Mr. Bezos retiring.
    So, nothing on your part, again, but your feelings and more 'you don't know that', with nothing to back up your claims and trying to devalue rational reasoning with your emotions. But I am the biased one. Sure.

    Also, sure. New subs aren't the only way to make money. But here's the thing. If you don't grow the revenue you make, in this case, drawing in new customers, but you increase your spendings by a billion dollars, what happens to your profit?
    Last edited by Skulltaker; 2022-12-06 at 04:45 PM.

  4. #8164
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    24,989
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    and in the end, my words were true, as they don't say if its 100m watching from start to finish. just 100m views, questionable at best
    So as I said “ Some posters have literally said that any number put out that doesn’t show the show as a failure is a lie”.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #8165
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    We don't know plus we don't know is "a rough picture". There is no napkin math that can be done to come to any conclusion about how much money the show made for Amazon.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Has any show ever stated views were start to finish?
    No, it isn't. You're - again- trying to equate not being able to know with not being able to make a reasonable assumption. The math has been done. Just scroll up.

    Oh, wait, so, if views doesn't mean 'from start to finish', what you're saying is that even LESS people than 100 million watched the show?

  6. #8166
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,770
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    So, nothing on your part, again, but your feelings and more 'you don't know that', with nothing to back up your claims and trying to devalue rational reasoning with your emotions. But I am the biased one. Sure.
    Of course you are the biased one. You are pretend like you have actual data rather then just your feelings. I'm not biased either way on the show's performance. It could have lost money. It could have earned money. From Amazon's statements it appears the show was a success. 100 million views, and it broke all previous records for new sign ups and views.

    You are lashing out and pretending that you have access to some kind of secret data that has allowed you to do "napkin math" to determine the show has lost money.

    Here is an example of you not having a bias. Which has clearly changed despite still having 0 information to draw conclusions and nothing to back up your claims other then "I a say so".

    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Just because 100 million watched it doesn't mean 100 million enjoyed it. So far it has been recieved with mixed reviews. Amazon Prime has over 200 million subscribers, so out of their own audience, 50% were interested. This gives us 0 information on how many people the show actually attracted enough to bother subbing to prime.

    Also, more people like the show than don't like it is a rather big assumption on your part. You have nothing backing your claims, other than your opinion, dude.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    No, it isn't. You're - again- trying to equate not being able to know with not being able to make a reasonable assumption. The math has been done. Just scroll up.
    How can you do math when you don't know the information? That isn't reasonable in the slightest. You are making up values to fit the narrative you want. How many new subscriptions did the show get Prime? How many current subscribers watched it? How many cancelled? How many of those new subscribers were just Video and not Prime? How many made other purchases during that time period? All things that you don't know which means you didn't do any math and haven't made any reasonable conclusions. Lmao.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #8167
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    19,826
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    So as I said “ Some posters have literally said that any number put out that doesn’t show the show as a failure is a lie”.
    Nitpicking and ignoring context.

    Which is funny since I've being accused of nittpicking the show

  8. #8168
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    24,989
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Nitpicking and ignoring context.

    Which is funny since I've being accused of nittpicking the show
    Not doing either you just don’t want to own your own words.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  9. #8169
    Show was pretty sweet.

    Was fun watching, acting like Batman "Where's Sauron???" Hehehhe.

  10. #8170
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Of course you are the biased one. You are pretend like you have actual data rather then just your feelings. I'm not biased either way on the show's performance. It could have lost money. It could have earned money. From Amazon's statements it appears the show was a success. 100 million views, and it broke all previous records for new sign ups and views.

    You are lashing out and pretending that you have access to some kind of secret data that has allowed you to do "napkin math" to determine the show has lost money.

    Here is an example of you not having a bias. Which has clearly changed despite still having 0 information to draw conclusions and nothing to back up your claims other then "I a say so".



    - - - Updated - - -



    How can you do math when you don't know the information? That isn't reasonable in the slightest. You are making up values to fit the narrative you want.
    Again, I know it's difficult for you to understand that concept, but assumptions aren't based on feelings.

    I'm not pretending to know anything, that's (another) blatant lie on your part. I'm also not lashing out, buddy. You're the one who is increasingly agitated because you desperatly try to hold on to the fantasy of 'All assumptions are equally valid'.

    The point I made 2 weeks ago and the point I'm making today are the exact same thing. We don't know what 100 million views means, but we can speculate.

    And saying 'we don't know the information' is another blatant lie by you. You've even repeated some of the infos we have. You're just unwilling or unable to get to any conlcusions. None of the values I used are made up. They are assumptions. That's not the same thing.

    Again. Point out what I've said is unreasonable to you, and why.

    Or keep flailing.

  11. #8171
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,770
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Again, I know it's difficult for you to understand that concept, but assumptions aren't based on feelings.
    You don't have the information to make these assumptions on anything but feelings. If the point you made today and two weeks ago are the same then why is it that today you said we have enough information to say the show lost money but two weeks ago you said we don't have enough information? You are now lying while saying I'm the one increasingly agitated. It is pure projection on your part lol.

    We don't know the information to say if they show made money or lost money. 100 million viewers is not in indication of money made. Breaking all previous prime records for viewers and new sign ups (tracked by first show watched after sign up) is not an indication of how much money the show made. Your assumptions are you've argued that the show lost money. You have no way of knowing that based on the information given.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #8172
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You don't have the information to make these assumptions on anything but feelings. If the point you made today and two weeks ago are the same then why is it that today you said we have enough information to say the show lost money but two weeks ago you said we don't have enough information? You are now lying while saying I'm the one increasingly agitated. It is pure projection on your part lol.

    We don't know the information to say if they show made money or lost money. 100 million viewers is not in indication of money made. Breaking all previous prime records for viewers and new sign ups (tracked by first show watched after sign up) is not an indication of how much money the show made. Your assumptions are you've argued that the show lost money. You have no way of knowing that based on the information given.
    Dude, I never said that two weeks ago. You even bothered to search for and quote what I said. Literally nothing I said back then goes near the question of success. So please stop putting words into my mouth, it's just another pathetic attempt at gaslighting on your part.

    There are more than enough indicators to make an assumption whether or not the show was financially succesfull. Or rather, there are many MANY indicators that it wasn't, and not one that it was.

    Do you think that the show drew in enough new subscribers to warrant the 500 million to 1 billion Dollar cost? Or rather, turn a profit? And what makes you think so?

    Did the show get huge social media engagement to indicate it spread throughout potential customers? No. It fell short of the engagement House of the Dragon got. Did it get really good critiques? Nope. Mediocre ones. Yes, 6.9 average is mediocre.

    The show lost money. Lots of it.

  13. #8173
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,770
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Dude, I never said that two weeks ago. You even bothered to search for and quote what I said. Literally nothing I said back then goes near the question of success. So please stop putting words into my mouth, it's just another pathetic attempt at gaslighting on your part.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    This gives us 0 information on how many people the show actually attracted enough to bother subbing to prime.
    So having no information on how many were attracted by the show has nothing to do with success? Two weeks ago you said we didn't have enough information. The only thing that has changed for information is Amazon stated that they broke previous records for viewers and sign ups on the Prime Video platform. So there are no indicators for the show being a financial success or not. All we have are assumptions. You are using your feelings, and bias, to assume it wasn't successful.

    New subscribers isn't the only way Amazon uses to judge a show for success. I'm beginning to regret posting that link since you keep misconstruing it. Regardless how do you know that it didn't draw in enough new subscribers for Amazon to call it a success on that regard? What are the many indicators that show us how many new accounts they got?

    House of the Dragon is not Rings of Power. Why is it an automatic failure just because it didn't have the same level of social media engagement? With how much all the haters keep discussing the show here it is an indicator it is doing something right. Because you all can't let it go and have to keep trying to tear it down. All you have for the show losing lots of money is "I say so".
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #8174
    https://fortune.com/2018/03/16/amazo...ime-originals/

    This is How Amazon Evaluates the Success of Amazon Prime Originals


    Amazon measures “cost per first stream,” which divides the total cost of producing and marketing an original show by the number of people who stream it after signing up for Prime


    Just wanted to throw this out there since there's so much questioning on how Amazon judges success.

  15. #8175
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    snip
    That is how it works, new shows keep subs and get more subs plain and simple, they have also not spent 1 billion on the show, the first 2 seasons are estimated to cost that, all the money generated in amazon prime is attributed to the most popular show amazon has at the time and RoP beats all other shows by a massive margin.

    Its 100 million viewers, which means seperate ppl watching it not views.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Like people said, 100m saw from 200 total subs, it means half the péople watch it, even if its for free, that is a bad sign


    Prove it, prove how they did that when they spend more thn billion on it

    - - - Updated - - -



    It i because they have said numbers, they are able to manipulate info in a way it looks like its favorable.
    You do realise alot of ppl dont use amazon prime to watch stuff right, if you think 100 million viewers is a bad sign you are just proving to everyone you lack integrity because you dont like something but more ppl actually do like it, most shows never even reach that number, in no world is that many views bad.

    They have not spent 1 billion on the show have they, is season 2 completed no so they have spent about half a billion so far, they make multiple billions every single month from amazon prime so they have made thier money back and more.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  16. #8176
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    19,826
    This guy is probably in another dimension or something

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    https://fortune.com/2018/03/16/amazo...ime-originals/

    This is How Amazon Evaluates the Success of Amazon Prime Originals


    Amazon measures “cost per first stream,” which divides the total cost of producing and marketing an original show by the number of people who stream it after signing up for Prime


    Just wanted to throw this out there since there's so much questioning on how Amazon judges success.
    the article is locked on paywall, or its just here?

  17. #8177
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    That is how it works, new shows keep subs and get more subs plain and simple
    That's INCREDIBLY, even fallaciously, reductive, though.

    No one is saying the show DIDN'T generate ANY subs. Which is the only claim this kind of statement would refute. You're trying to argue against a version of the claim that no one is putting forward - textbook definition of strawman.

    The entire crux lies in HOW MANY subs it generated. You can't just handwave away THE most important, most central part of the issue at hand.

  18. #8178
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's INCREDIBLY, even fallaciously, reductive, though.

    No one is saying the show DIDN'T generate ANY subs. Which is the only claim this kind of statement would refute. You're trying to argue against a version of the claim that no one is putting forward - textbook definition of strawman.

    The entire crux lies in HOW MANY subs it generated. You can't just handwave away THE most important, most central part of the issue at hand.
    Number of subs gained at the time of a new show is completely irrelevant, if you are only going to sub 1 month to watch a show then those are the subs that matter the least, the most important subs are the ones who will remain subbed because the platform has enough content to keep them around, you are ignoring the most important aspect of the platform.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  19. #8179
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,770
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Number of subs gained at the time of a new show is completely irrelevant, if you are only going to sub 1 month to watch a show then those are the subs that matter the least, the most important subs are the ones who will remain subbed because the platform has enough content to keep them around, you are ignoring the most important aspect of the platform.
    Both are important to Amazon. The problem is only the calculations Amazon uses for new subs is known so they are all trying to tear the show down through those. Existing subscriptions are important as well because that keeps people buying on the platform. In 2016 Mr. Bezos said a golden globe win sells shoes. Prime Video is still seen as a "loss leader" type of product. It draws people in or keeps them subscribed to move more product. With the MGM acquisition and recent shows they most likely want to move away from only the loss leader type of thing.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #8180
    Brewmaster
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    B'ham, AL
    Posts
    1,373
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    https://fortune.com/2018/03/16/amazo...ime-originals/

    This is How Amazon Evaluates the Success of Amazon Prime Originals


    Amazon measures “cost per first stream,” which divides the total cost of producing and marketing an original show by the number of people who stream it after signing up for Prime

    Just wanted to throw this out there since there's so much questioning on how Amazon judges success.
    Doh! Yeah behind a paywall man - couldn't get anything of the article behind the first three sentences.

    However, in other, slightly related, news. "Everyone else" just posted THIS about Netflix's success with the new show, "WEDNESDAY" -

    https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/net...ar-1235447465/
    (irony - this page is COVERED IN RoP Ads, ROFL)

    https://screenrant.com/wednesday-sho...ours-streamed/

    Twelve days after its debut, The Hollywood Reporter reports that the Jenna Ortega-led Wednesday has beaten its own record, as for the week of November 28 - December 4, the series had 411.29 million hours viewed. This is the first time any English-language series has reached and passed 400 million hours viewed in a week. With 752.52 million cumulative hours streamed, Wednesday is ranked No. 3 in Netflix's all-time chart for English-language series, right behind Dahmer – Monster: The Jeffrey Dahmer Story at No. 2 and Stranger Things season 4 at No. 1. It's highly likely that Wednesday will surpass the former soon and take the No. 2 spot.
    Knowing this show didn't cost 500, or even 200, hell probably not even 100 million to make - does that make this more, or less, of a success for Netflix than RoP with its "known announced numbers" for Amazon. =D

    Yeah, none of us can actually answer the above question with the given data! But watching you guys try to prove otherwise to each other is ....something.

    So 750 MILLION HOURS, total for the show, in under TWO WEEKs.

    Quoting this from the earlier post re: Amazon's statement--
    The first season of The Rings of Power has been an unprecedented success, viewed by more than 100 million people worldwide, with more than 24 billion minutes streamed.
    Remains to be seen if Wednesday viewed hours will end up equaling Amazon's stated numbers for RoP - but it certainly seems on track to pass 1 billion hours viewed in its first month, anyway. Whether anyone checks in six months to try and figure that out, outside of each company's pencil pushers, who knows. =D

    Also, though I feel I shouldn't need to point this out, I will - each of these "record breaking" statements is among the company's OWN NUMBERS. Amazon's "record breaking" series, and Netflix's "record breaking" series aren't breaking each other's records. Netflix's statement of "Third biggest english language streamed show" is in reference to its OWN Market history and NOT comparing that to Amazon, Apple+, Disney+ etc. records. So both "record breakers" can be true, within their own companies.

    You can all make assumptions from the above about their subscription rates, new subs due to shows, whatever, its all pure speculation because none of us has enough of this information to make ANY factual statements. Other than "Both of these networks see these shows as successes."

    (Note: I did not give my opinion on whether *I* think RoP was a success or not for Amazon and I won't get drawn into that debate because none of us can answer that. We aren't Amazon accountants.)
    Koriani - Guardians of Forever - BM Huntard on TB; Kharmic - Worgen Druid - TB
    Koriani - none - Dragon of Secret World
    Karmic - Moirae - SWTOR
    inactive: Frith-Rae - Horizons/Istaria; Koriani in multiple old MMOs. I been around a long time.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •