Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

Unless they retcon their own show, which is much a possibility seeing how they will change the showrunners, no it wasn't

Why would it be a retcon? Do you even know what that word means? They never stated that Sauron/Halbrand did not manipulate them. So it wouldn't be retroactively changing canon in order to be a thing. It just happened off-screen. The scene does have him using "magic" which could have been the point of manipulation.

It makes no sense because numenorians are powerful and mighty and their nation was so greater they invaded god's land, and you think the fear of "losing their jerbs" because ONE elf show up in their shore? this is bad storytelling, bad writing.

And yet they still grew to dislike the elves. Their two factions divided along "liking elves" and "not liking elves". It wasn't one elf showing up. It was a human, that arrived with the elf, trying to get a guild badge with out having earned it. A human that had special status because he was a friend of the elf. A human that then beat up the guy who gave the speech. You don't see why he would be angry and worried about his job being taken if the elf-friend human can just waltz in and disrupt the "natural order" of society

[Dhrizzle]

Do you? cause it seems you know but you pretend you don't,

I asked what do you think an allegory is, not if you knew what an allegory is.

YOr are you unironicaly saying this was just an "inspiration of real world events"? wink wink

It feels like I'm missing half of the conversation here. Why not try explaining what allegory is being told here and we'll see if I agree.

[Syegfryed]

I asked what do you think an allegory is, not if you knew what an allegory is.



It feels like I'm missing half of the conversation here. Why not try explaining what allegory is being told here and we'll see if I agree.

You know what it is, you don't need me to lecture it about it.

If you are trying to raise smartass point about "you don't know what it is, thats why im asking you to explain what it is" then you are losing your time cause im not going to bite it.

[Dhrizzle]

You know what it is, you don't need me to lecture it about it.

If you are trying to raise smartass point about "you don't know what it is, thats why im asking you to explain what it is" then you are losing your time cause im not going to bite it.

Honestly that's just sad.

[Triceron]

Honestly that's just sad.

So is the implication that Sauron planned it all simply based on it being possible

Same twisted logic could apply to saying Galadriel planned Mount Doom to happen because it's possible and no one knows for sure if she didn't. It would be outright ignoring the story to imply these baseless conspiracy theories.

Not sure why you guys are even trying to defend this point since it clearly wasn't in the story at all, nor does it make sense in any context of Rings of Power's plot.

[Kumorii]

So is the implication that Sauron planned it all simply based on it being possible

Same twisted logic could apply to saying Galadriel planned Mount Doom to happen because it's possible and no one knows for sure if she didn't. It would be outright ignoring the story to imply these baseless conspiracy theories.

Not sure why you guys are even trying to defend this point since it clearly wasn't in the story at all, nor does it make sense in any context of Rings of Power's plot.

It's not about defending, it's about making sure the other guy is wrong no matter what.

[Dhrizzle]

So is the implication that Sauron planned it all simply based on it being possible

Same twisted logic could apply to saying Galadriel planned Mount Doom to happen because it's possible and no one knows for sure if she didn't. It would be outright ignoring the story to imply these baseless conspiracy theories.

Not sure why you guys are even trying to defend this point since it clearly wasn't in the story at all, nor does it make sense in any context of Rings of Power's plot.

I haven't mulled over Rhorle's suggestion, though Sauron in Tolkien's work is known for appearing in a fair guise to manipulate events during the Second Age, so I'm not really aiming to defend it much. I was just wondering what @Syegfryed thought he was talking about with his references to allegory, though it's clear now he has no more clue than I do.

Although let's reexamine how silly your example is. Sauron is known as a shape-shifter and manipulator so Rhorle's idea isn't out of character for him. Galadriel on the other hand rarely explodes volcanoes. In fact I don't think does it in any of the publishers works.

[Triceron]

Although let's reexamine how silly your example is. Sauron is known as a shape-shifter and manipulator so Rhorle's idea isn't out of character for him. Galadriel on the other hand rarely explodes volcanoes. In fact I don't think does it in any of the publishers works.

Put it into context of the show, as if he were a shapeshifter

Why would he get himself put in jail in the first place when it serves him no purpose? As a agaoeshifter he could manipulate himself into position in the crafters guild no problem, avoid the interaction with the guildsmen completely and not resort to assaulting them.

That's what would make sense if he were actively shapeshifting at will. Instead, the story is depicting him in a specific form without implying he can shapeshift right now at all. That is how the plot and story is presented, and even falls in line with Tolkien's own depiction of Annatar taking on a specific form and not merely shapeshifting at will at any given time.

Again, explain in the context of the show if you're going to humor the explanation, not correlations drawn from material outside of the story. Halbrand is not Annatar. He is a completely newly invented form of Sauron that we have mot seen before, characterized in a way that is not intended by Tolkien, merely i spired by his works. And the show has done very little to bridge in his true motivations onto the subtext of the plot, even if you take his actions into account retrospectively

Give the show a watch again. Does Halbrand manipulating the Numenoreans by beating them up and getting imprisoned actually make sense, even if he was a shapeshifting manipulator? In my opinion it doesn't in the context of the show, and Halbrand/Sauron was not entirely confident in even going back to Mordor or starting a war at the time he was in Numenor with Galadriel. The Numenoreans acted on their own volition since the show even explains they have a 'hatred' of Elves yet conveniently still brought them to Numenor.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Give the show a watch again. Does Halbrand manipulating the Numenoreans by beating them up and getting imprisoned actually make sense, even if he was a shapeshifting manipulator? In my opinion it doesn't in the context of the show, and Halbrand/Sauron was not entirely confident in even going back to Mordor or starting a war at the time he was in Numenor with Galadriel. The Numenoreans acted on their own volition since the show even explains they have a 'hatred' of Elves yet conveniently still brought them to Numenor.

Not sure where I fall on this actually being manipulation or not but wouldn’t his actions line up fine if it was to enrage them?

First he steals a badge so he could work, then beats up multiple smiths humiliating them, then gets out of jail with no punishment and they let him smith likely against the other guild members wishes.

It doesn’t really line up with him wanting to be a good boy but you could argue that the foundations are there, though they wouldn’t really apply to elfs at all.

[rhorle]

It's not about defending, it's about making sure the other guy is wrong no matter what.

Isn't it funny how you, and others, get so offended when the side that dislikes stuff is made to look wrong?

[Triceron]

Not sure where I fall on this actually being manipulation or not but wouldn’t his actions line up fine if it was to enrage them?

First he steals a badge so he could work, then beats up multiple smiths humiliating them, then gets out of jail with no punishment and they let him smith likely against the other guild members wishes.

It doesn’t really line up with him wanting to be a good boy but you could argue that the foundations are there, though they wouldn’t really apply to elfs at all.

The thing is his release from prison is unrelated to said 'manipulation'. Is there anything implying he was also manipulating his release? If anything, Galadriel was a complete wild card in Numenor, and I'd go as far as saying she should have been imprisoned multiple times but was not because of plot armor. She threatens/insults the queen, is caught trying to steal a ship, and then is caught infiltrating the king's private chambers. Somehow Halbrand knows she would still be able yo get him out Scott free?

Possible, yet very convenient if so. I don't exactly buy that explanation for what we have.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The thing is his release from prison is unrelated to said 'manipulation'. Is there anything implying he was also manipulating his release? If anything, Galadriel was a complete wild card in Numenor, and I'd go as far as saying she should have been imprisoned multiple times but was not because of plot armor. She threatens/insults the queen, is caught trying to steal a ship, and then is caught infiltrating the king's private chambers. Somehow Halbrand knows she would still be able yo get him out Scott free?

Possible, yet very convenient if so. I don't exactly buy that explanation for what we have.

Well ya Galadriel throws a retch into it being deliberate because unless he was planning ten steps ahead and predicting what she’d do and how they’d react it doesn’t really fit.

I guess you could say he’d do the same thing if she wasn’t there and just get out some other way but that seems like a stretch and really the whole thing seems kinda pointless unlike in the actual book where he’s manipulating the king from a cowed position.

[rhorle]

Well ya Galadriel throws a retch into it being deliberate because unless he was planning ten steps ahead and predicting what she’d do and how they’d react it doesn’t really fit.

It could be that he wasn't sure if she could convince them to send an army. So he wanted to either manipulate the Kings Men or force them to decide what to do with the elf quicker because of the commoners "revolt". He obviously had his own plans and he deliberately picked the fight. I find the notion that he wanted to make knives for no purpose to be a silly notion. Given we now know he is Sauron it seems plausible that he was manipulating things somehow for some reason.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It could be that he wasn't sure if she could convince them to send an army. So he wanted to either manipulate the Kings Men or force them to decide what to do with the elf quicker because of the commoners "revolt". He obviously had his own plans and he deliberately picked the fight. I find the notion that he wanted to make knives for no purpose to be a silly notion. Given we now know he is Sauron it seems plausible that he was manipulating things somehow for some reason.

I don’t know if think if he was going for that he’d Wilma but higher then some smiths like with magic he should have no problem tricking the sailors that something is amiss and they are shown to have a lot more cultural power then some Nobody’s.

[Triceron]

Well ya Galadriel throws a retch into it being deliberate because unless he was planning ten steps ahead and predicting what she’d do and how they’d react it doesn’t really fit.

I guess you could say he’d do the same thing if she wasn’t there and just get out some other way but that seems like a stretch and really the whole thing seems kinda pointless unlike in the actual book where he’s manipulating the king from a cowed position.

Which is my point here

The Rings of Power story is trying to tell a sympathetic story for Halbrand. Theories were floating around since ep 2 about Halbrand being potentially Sauron. If not, he could have been a potential Witch King of Angmar. Either way, it was already speculated that he isn't merely who he says he is.

So by the time they're all in Numenor, it's simple enough to follow the plot and imagine what he could be planning. And it's outbursts like his fight with the Numenoreans that shows the audience that he didn't want to fight, he actively tried to avoid it. If this was meant to be manipulation in retrospect, the scene should have played out differently, to at the very least hint that he was planning this, that he could be intentionally luring them. He wasn't though, he thought he gave em the slip.

That's why I don't buy the explanation that he was manipulating them into hating Elves. That seemed like a complete contrivance that they would even end up blaming the Elves for his bullshit. It was quite counterintuitive, and doesn't imply some 4D chess being played here.

[rhorle]

I don’t know if think if he was going for that he’d Wilma but higher then some smiths like with magic he should have no problem tricking the sailors that something is amiss and they are shown to have a lot more cultural power then some Nobody’s.

They certainly could have done it differently but they way they did it solves a few things. Wouldn't Sauron want to stop the Queen, and all of Numenor, from allying with the elves? He still was infatuated with Galadriel but might have wanted to accomplish his other goals. It could also be the show laying the seeds for his future return. The compressed time line and 8 episode constraints might not allow for his capture and return to play out the same. We know from Tolkien that even though his army fled Sauron was "fine" with being captured because met his goals so the same "spirit of the work" can happen in different ways.

Since the show brought him to Numenor why not have him manipulate a little. It solved a few things. It introduce Ar-pharazon as a political power, the kings men, the dislike of elves, hints at Saurons power (the magical effects in the fight). Maybe it is just incompetence by the show writers but I find that a harder pill to swallow.

[Syegfryed]

Honestly that's just sad.

Could not say better about people defending those things, but here we are

[Xath]

It could be that he wasn't sure if she could convince them to send an army. So he wanted to either manipulate the Kings Men or force them to decide what to do with the elf quicker because of the commoners "revolt". He obviously had his own plans and he deliberately picked the fight. I find the notion that he wanted to make knives for no purpose to be a silly notion. Given we now know he is Sauron it seems plausible that he was manipulating things somehow for some reason.

Or it could be that it's terrible writing by bad writers

[Skulltaker]

Which is my point here

The Rings of Power story is trying to tell a sympathetic story for Halbrand. Theories were floating around since ep 2 about Halbrand being potentially Sauron. If not, he could have been a potential Witch King of Angmar. Either way, it was already speculated that he isn't merely who he says he is.

So by the time they're all in Numenor, it's simple enough to follow the plot and imagine what he could be planning. And it's outbursts like his fight with the Numenoreans that shows the audience that he didn't want to fight, he actively tried to avoid it. If this was meant to be manipulation in retrospect, the scene should have played out differently, to at the very least hint that he was planning this, that he could be intentionally luring them. He wasn't though, he thought he gave em the slip.

That's why I don't buy the explanation that he was manipulating them into hating Elves. That seemed like a complete contrivance that they would even end up blaming the Elves for his bullshit. It was quite counterintuitive, and doesn't imply some 4D chess being played here.

At best you can argue that he pushed what was already struggling for balance over the edge, and even that's a stretch. There are better ways to get into influential positions than cheating your way into them. And given the state of the rest of the story, that's just a level of finesse that I don't see the writers have. A far simpler explanaition is probably that the initial meetings determined 'big Sauron reveal at the end', and then they constructed the story to that point backwards. It shows. It's a common issue with shows these days. You can immediately tell that they had the ending in mind ahead of planning the journey. Which, in itself isn't an issue, if you have the skills to properly do that. If not, you end up with a non-sensical story that has glaring issues left right and center.

[Celement]

Given how awful this shit was I hope the studio in question just has all the characters russian hat dance for twelve hours during the next 3 (4?) Seasons amazon prepaid for just to show how little of a shit they give.