1. #821
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    21,125
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurasu View Post
    He described their various beard colors, but never their skin color, no.
    Damn thats so incredibly damning for so so many of the people upset about skin colour and trying to hide because lore accuracy.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  2. #822
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    tell me where i said, please make it as big and bold as you possibly can where i said in any version of the legendarium that he is shown to be that, i said he is stereotypically DEPICTED AS being the old white haired and bearded man that is most often used as a DEPICTION of the Judaeo-Christian image of 'God', i'm fully fucking aware that his presence is never seen in any form by any creature in the Tolkein universe, i'm also fully aware of what elves in middle earth are like, i'm aware of the fact that such are their deep emotional connections that they can quite literally die of heartbreak, they can feel pain when they see something also in pain, the whole fucking point of the black speech was to cause elves physical and emotional pain whenever they heard it as a bastardisation of their language by Sauron, would you care to add anything further or have i made my point?
    Wait, so when you said that elves
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    were fashioned and moulded in the image of their creator, the one and only god of the Tolklein universe, Eru Illuvatar, who was always depicted as the stereotypical elderly white man with flowing white hair and beard,
    you said that knowing full well that it was never in Tolkien's works and was something you basically made up? And we're supposed to trust anything you say on the matter when you just happily (well ANGRILY) admitted you're more than willing to just make stuff up?

    Now if you do know this stuff about elves being magical and being affected by their environments, why are you still going on about "genes" and "biology?" It's genetically and biologically impossible for a creature to become mightier just by visiting a place with some trees and falling in love with an angel, and yet we have Thingol so maybe "genetic and biological impossibilities" aren't quite the amazing trump card you think they are.

  3. #823
    I'm the most offended by the beardless Dwarf woman. HOW DARE THEY PUT A BEARD ON HER NOW!

  4. #824
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    21,125
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's probably the same magic that allows Jesus to be depicted as a white man.
    and that Santa can’t be black.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #825
    Warchief rogoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    in the land of killer unicrons
    Posts
    2,114
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurasu View Post
    It's interesting then that he uses the word swarthy to describe some of Beor's descendants (again, they ranged from fair to swarthy) and the Easterlings, who I think we can agree are based on Africans. I'm not saying all of House Beor was black, or that he was black, I'm saying Tolkien created black characters out of his lineage and they went on to settle Numenor with their relatives.

    I'm also not even saying I'm explicitly correct in my interpretation, only that the door is left open for creative license here. It's not as set in stone as you make it seem with your first comment here.
    the 'easterlings' and peoples of Rhun are meant to reflect those living in turkey/arabia, literally nothing whatsoever to do with reflecting anything from Africa aside from maybe modern day morocco/Algeria etc.


  6. #826
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    and that Santa can’t be black.
    We all know he's Asian

  7. #827
    Herald of the Titans
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    ID
    Posts
    2,554
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    the 'easterlings' and peoples of Rhun are meant to reflect those living in turkey/arabia, literally nothing whatsoever to do with reflecting anything from Africa aside from maybe modern day morocco/Algeria etc.
    I guess I can see that; I always pictured them as more Northern African or maybe even Indian.

  8. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by wombinator04 View Post
    I'm the most offended by the beardless Dwarf woman. HOW DARE THEY PUT A BEARD ON HER NOW!
    Hmm, looking at a higher res image, it does look like she's got mutton chops.

    https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lo...20220210174335

  9. #829
    Warchief rogoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    in the land of killer unicrons
    Posts
    2,114
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Wait, so when you said that elves

    you said that knowing full well that it was never in Tolkien's works and was something you basically made up? And we're supposed to trust anything you say on the matter when you just happily (well ANGRILY) admitted you're more than willing to just make stuff up?

    Now if you do know this stuff about elves being magical and being affected by their environments, why are you still going on about "genes" and "biology?" It's genetically and biologically impossible for a creature to become mightier just by visiting a place with some trees and falling in love with an angel, and yet we have Thingol so maybe "genetic and biological impossibilities" aren't quite the amazing trump card you think they are.
    do me a favour, take a second to read what i wrote in response to the topic of genetics, i said clearly and without reservation that i'm applying 'real world' genetics laws to these token characters that shouldn't exist, furthermore, i also said that i'm happy to use ANY AND ALL real world systems and logic to emphasise my point after the executive producer of this shitfest stated as part of the article on vanity fair, that the show should 'reflect what the world looks like', meaning that the original author who wrote these stories to ESCAPE from the real world and the 'Americanisation' of his home, the destruction of natural beauty replaced by grotesque buildings and machinery that in his eye had no place and didn't belong, have gone full circle and want to reflect the real world instead?, please explain to me how you justify that bullshit? because i really wanna know what level of mental gymnastics i must perform to comprehend such idiocy, as for your 'because magic duh' arguement, the one true god of this universe created beings who are known to be shape shifters, by extension that means he himself is also a shapeshifter, meaning that his image of himself could be what the elves look like while his actual appearance could have been the stereotypical judeao-christian image of god, and to dwarves his true image is that of Durin I, or to some other race his visage is that of something they also revere, see where i'm going with this?, please stop trying to take some imaginary high ground and looking down holier than thou, try again when you have a legitimate arguement until then, stop wasting mine and everyone else's time and energy.


  10. #830
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Damn thats so incredibly damning for so so many of the people upset about skin colour and trying to hide because lore accuracy.
    There are also two dwarven clans that originated in the east. Interpret that how you will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

  11. #831
    Warchief rogoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    in the land of killer unicrons
    Posts
    2,114
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    We all know he's Asian
    akshully i think you'll find he's a mid transition latino woman /s


  12. #832
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    do me a favour, take a second to read what i wrote in response to the topic of genetics, i said clearly and without reservation that i'm applying 'real world' genetics laws to these token characters that shouldn't exist, furthermore, i also said that i'm happy to use ANY AND ALL real world systems and logic to emphasise my point after the executive producer of this shitfest stated as part of the article on vanity fair, that the show should 'reflect what the world looks like', meaning that the original author who wrote these stories to ESCAPE from the real world and the 'Americanisation' of his home, the destruction of natural beauty replaced by grotesque buildings and machinery that in his eye had no place and didn't belong, have gone full circle and want to reflect the real world instead?, please explain to me how you justify that bullshit? because i really wanna know what level of mental gymnastics i must perform to comprehend such idiocy, as for your 'because magic duh' arguement, the one true god of this universe created beings who are known to be shape shifters, by extension that means he himself is also a shapeshifter, meaning that his image of himself could be what the elves look like while his actual appearance could have been the stereotypical judeao-christian image of god, and to dwarves his true image is that of Durin I, or to some other race his visage is that of something they also revere, see where i'm going with this?, please stop trying to take some imaginary high ground and looking down holier than thou, try again when you have a legitimate arguement until then, stop wasting mine and everyone else's time and energy.
    So someone said they wanted the cast of a TV show they were making to reflect how people look in society and you took that as license to apply completely irrelevant bollocks to Tolkien's work as well as inventing a load of shit about Eru Illuvatar, and we're supposed to take you even remotely seriously?

  13. #833
    Herald of the Titans
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    ID
    Posts
    2,554
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    akshully i think you'll find he's a mid transition latino woman /s
    Could be an entertaining movie. I certainly wouldn't spurn it for the casting alone. Obviously there should be a higher degree of care with LoTR than Santa at this point, but I think they've mostly stayed within Tolkien's lines for the casting so far.

  14. #834
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    the one true god of this universe created beings who are known to be shape shifters, by extension that means he himself is also a shapeshifter, meaning that his image of himself could be what the elves look like while his actual appearance could have been the stereotypical judeao-christian image of god, and to dwarves his true image is that of Durin I, or to some other race his visage is that of something they also revere, see where i'm going with this?
    To be fair, Eru has never had a physical description, and all art depictions of him are simply interpretations. Adaptations.

    And if we're talking about him as a shape-shifting or formless entity who creates beings 'in his form', then we have a basis for a canonical explanation for why Black Elves could exist. He's literally formless, and simply created the Elves as he wills it.

    Is the creation of Black skinned Elves canon to what we know in Simlarillion and LOTR? No, it is not. But neither is this whole explanation of what Eru actually looks like, or his roots in judeao-christian depictions of god. These aren't canonical to the actual Lord of the Rings universe, therefore can not be used to rule out why Black Elves shouldn't exist in a particular telling of stories during that period of time, in that particular place in Middle-Earth, to that race of Elves.

    Either way, it's debating non-canon Rings of Power using non-canon reasons for why they shouldn't exist.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-02-15 at 08:43 PM.

  15. #835
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurasu View Post
    It's interesting then that he uses the word swarthy to describe some of Beor's descendants (again, they ranged from fair to swarthy) and the Easterlings, who I think we can agree are based on Africans. I'm not saying all of House Beor was black, or that he was black, I'm saying Tolkien created black characters out of his lineage and they went on to settle Numenor with their relatives.

    I'm also not even saying I'm explicitly correct in my interpretation, only that the door is left open for creative license here. It's not as set in stone as you make it seem with your first comment here.
    Swarthy is simply a dark complexion, not different physical appearance; this means that a descendant of the Numenoreans wouldn't look like a black person from the US; they'd only have darker skin complexion and dark hair, boarder face perhaps too. The Haradrim are one of the few groups whom the actor would match. If this actor is a descendant of the Numenoreans and if we assume that his dark skin is seemingly the only trait that he inherited from his ancient lineage, then the future representation of Numenoreans would mean they would most likely look like fair-skinned Africans with blonde hair. They could've at least picked a very tall black actor in that case.

    I appreciate your creative explanation. Part of being a fan is creating reasoning to make it fit together and that is the message I'm getting from you. I find myself in the same position when it comes to works of fiction that I'm into. I simply find the chances that a person with real life African physical appearance finds himself in the environment the show's creators are putting the one from the trailer into is practically next to impossible.

    This is why I brought up the Haradrim. It would please lore purists and it would please those seeking representation of real life races in popular fiction. For some reason it's getting more and more popular to put the fictionally improbable into works of fiction; I believe these discussions drive the marketing and is the real reason behind these choices.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2022-02-15 at 09:02 PM.

  16. #836
    Herald of the Titans
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    ID
    Posts
    2,554
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    For some reason it's getting more and more popular to put the fictionally improbable into works of fiction; I believe these discussions drive the marketing and is the real reason behind these choices.
    It certainly could be the reason, but I also think there's something to be said for being able to see yourself in the media you're consuming. Developing more intricate stories for the Haradrim probably would have been the better way to do that; in the absence of that though, I think there's room to introduce a few interesting, diverse characters in the existing framework of what they're already doing. We'll see how the writing goes from there, though; that's the key element.

  17. #837
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    This is why I brought up the Haradrim. It would please lore purists and it would please those seeking representation of real life races in popular fiction. For some reason it's getting more and more popular to put the fictionally improbable into works of fiction; I believe these discussions drive the marketing and is the real reason behind these choices.
    For now, but I sure there are others like myself that will stop watching (I doubt I watch this) as they bastardize lore just to insert some message from the producers instead of staying true to the author/book. The worst part is they had a window with the Haradrim to get the same end result without messing around lore (though battle warrior Galadrial is still a faceplam, along with short haired elves and the lack of Celebron).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurasu View Post
    It certainly could be the reason, but I also think there's something to be said for being able to see yourself in the media you're consuming. Developing more intricate stories for the Haradrim probably would have been the better way to do that; in the absence of that though, I think there's room to introduce a few interesting, diverse characters in the existing framework of what they're already doing. We'll see how the writing goes from there, though; that's the key element.
    Then do it logically, forcefully shoe horning in shit like they have presented just turns me off, instead of doing a more lore based development of the Haradrim. To me this tells me the producers care more about THEIR message than the product/lore they are adapting, which I as a consumer want to see a faithful adaptation, as it is what I enjoyed, not whatever bullshit message Hollywood is trying to peddle to me this week.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-02-15 at 09:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  18. #838
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurasu View Post
    It certainly could be the reason, but I also think there's something to be said for being able to see yourself in the media you're consuming. Developing more intricate stories for the Haradrim probably would have been the better way to do that; in the absence of that though, I think there's room to introduce a few interesting, diverse characters in the existing framework of what they're already doing. We'll see how the writing goes from there, though; that's the key element.
    Despite being non-canon, I think that Middle Earth: Shadow of War handled this with more care and attention. Baranor and his story were great.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    For now, but I sure there are others like myself that will stop watching (I doubt I watch this) as they bastardize lore just to insert some message from the producers instead of staying true to the author/book. The worst part is they had a window with the Haradrim to get the same end result without messing around lore (though battle warrior Galadrial is still a faceplam, along with short haired elves and the lack of Celebron).



    Then do it logically, forcefully shoe horning in shit like they have presented just turns me off, instead of doing a more lore based development of the Haradrim. To me this tells me the producers care more about THEIR message than the product/lore they are adapting, which I as a consumer want to see a faithful adaptation, as it is what I enjoyed, not whatever bullshit message Hollywood is trying to peddle to me this week.
    I absolutely agree with your take. I'm in favour of faithful adaptations of the original sources just like you. Real life messages and representation should have no place in works of fiction because that simply defies the definition behind the work's nature. I think the same of historic dramas and works of entertainment based on historically accurate characters, events and well-known historic facts. I wouldn't want a white emperor of Mali or a black Napoleon either.

  19. #839
    Herald of the Titans Sluvs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    The void
    Posts
    2,763
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Despite being non-canon, I think that Middle Earth: Shadow of War handled this with more care and attention. Baranor and his story were great.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I absolutely agree with your take. I'm in favour of faithful adaptations of the original sources just like you. Real life messages and representation should have no place in works of fiction because that simply defies the definition behind the work's nature. I think the same of historic dramas and works of entertainment based on historically accurate characters, events and well-known historic facts. I wouldn't want a white emperor of Mali or a black Napoleon either.
    Wait. You think shadow of war, with shellob and sauron kissing, with celebrimbor forging the one ring, with a new ring of power being forged, With celebrimbor controlling orcs, with Isildur being a Nazgul, had more respect to the source material? Wtf.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  20. #840
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    I absolutely agree with your take. I'm in favour of faithful adaptations of the original sources just like you. Real life messages and representation should have no place in works of fiction because that simply defies the definition behind the work's nature. I think the same of historic dramas and works of entertainment based on historically accurate characters, events and well-known historic facts. I wouldn't want a white emperor of Mali or a black Napoleon either.
    It is one of the reason I get annoyed when people try to change the orcs to not have them be purely evil, there are enough stories out their with grey, with LOTR it is nice to get some simple black and white, not everything needs nuance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •