Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Syegfryed]

The show is okay, dialogue is fine..

Ah yes, dialogues full of no sequiturs are fine.

I still laugh my ass of with the "there is a tempest inside me" and Galadriel an dumbass to the queen.

Elves at Helm's Deep is not minor change, and with regards to Shadow of Mordor it's a double standard.

You are comparing some elves showing up to die, changing nothing in the story, cause the outcome was the same, to completely erasing Anathar and making mithril magic from the silmarilions mumbo jumbo.

And the games were always meant to be different and take liberties to do something original without shitting on the source.

[Clone]

if that's your take away from watching this steaming pile of dross then that tells me first off you are clueless when it comes to the lore of this world and why many of the bullshit changes made in this show that nobody asked for are so egregious and abhorrent, secondly, it also tells me that you're the perfect mindless idiot that this show is directed at, you are THE demographic for this terrible fanfiction and you are the prime example of the people targeted by this tick boxes infested rubbish.

- - - Updated - - -



keep in mind the marketing for shadow of mordor/war were perfectly clear from the outset that they were going to be taking 'creative liberties' with the source material and made people perfectly aware from the outset that it was going to be entirely the developers fabrication loosely based on middle earth and its places/people, this abhorrent mess of a tv show was marketed from the outset as a 'faithful adaptation of the great works of Tolkein', until christopher died and the showrunners/upper management did the uno reverse and created this steaming pile of bullshit with marketing shifting to then become 'based on the works of', there's a difference.

lol, fuck off. Don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone gives a shit about Tolkien lore. This show wasn't even on my radar until people like you raged over it.

[Triceron]

Elves at Helm's Deep is not minor change, and with regards to Shadow of Mordor it's a double standard.

It's not a double standard considering Shadow of Mordor was very blatantly developed with creative liberties in mind. The devs were very clear about that.

[Khaza-R]

lol, fuck off. Don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone gives a shit about Tolkien lore. This show wasn't even on my radar until people like you raged over it.

So you're basically just being a troll then? If you don't care for a particular aspect of the show then you shouldn't feel the need to be dismissive over people who take issue with it.

It's not a double standard considering Shadow of Mordor was very blatantly developed with creative liberties in mind. The devs were very clear about that.

Precisely. People didn't give a shit they turned Shelob into a sexy, spider lady because the game never said it was trying to be authentic. They basically just used Tolkien for the setting.

[Askyl]

For some reason it's only those who want to like the show that never sees stuff like this. I don't wonder why...because they refuse to read the source material!

Because its things that no one really cares about or is bothered by, and only found when people with malicious intent tries to find fault? Yeah thats what I meant.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not a double standard considering Shadow of Mordor was very blatantly developed with creative liberties in mind. The devs were very clear about that.

With this logic you all should be quite pleased with the level of accuracy RoP has since they have been clear that this adaptations will take liberties and try to go around the fact they dont have all rights to make it as true and good as possible. Just that every change will have the focus to keep the story Tolkien-esque and approved by Tolkien Estate.

[Triceron]

With this logic you all should be quite pleased with the level of accuracy RoP has since they have been clear that this adaptations will take liberties and try to go around the fact they dont have all rights to make it as true and good as possible. Just that every change will have the focus to keep the story Tolkien-esque and approved by Tolkien Estate.

That doesn't mean anything really, since they still did a shit job at telling a decent story when it comes down to it.

Doesn't matter how accurate or not accurate it is if it was poorly executed overall.

Shadows of Mordor was being compared to the Elves at Helms Deep. In both cases where liberties were taken, they made for an enjoyable, entertaining experience. I can't really say the same for RoP, so the 'level of accuracy' has nothing to do with anything really.

For example, they went with a Mithril saves the Elves storyline. What I didn't care for was the execution in the story, where they tried to pin so much secrecy around it and play cat-and-mouse around the whole thing and in the end it didn't even matter because they still forged the Elven rings with what little Mithril was given to Elrond. If we're talking about accuracy, the Elves never really needed Mithril nor did they place any particular importance over it outside of regarding it as a precious material. The Mithril-Elf Salvation reasoning is an excuse for Durin to keep digging and unleash the Balrog in future seasons, that's it. It doesn't actually make the plot better, considering the Dwarves were going to mine for Mithril anyways. We didn't need a 'We won't mine Mithril' "BUT DADDY I NEED TO SAVE MUH ELF FRIENDS" plot to get to the Balrog, but that's pretty much where ROP is going with it.

[Kumorii]

Owen is just too old to play Elendil. Yes, I know Elendil was very old in the books, being over 300 years old at the time he fought Sauron, but he’s supposed to be a great warrior, and Owen is gonna be in his 60s by the time that scene is actually filmed.

Maybe, I don't want to risk getting a worse actor because of his age though. Considering how great Numenoreans are supposed to be it doesn't feel jarring. Celebrimbors age is much more of an issue to me, he stuck out. Elendil didn't for me and I rather watch him act than gamble on a new actor.


---

Can't believe people are bringing up the games again. It's a vast difference in saying how faithful you are gonna be in interviews. When anything comes up they would "go back to the books". Everything would be Tolkienian. You are setting up hype and expectations for something you never intended to deliver.

The games never did such. Of course some will be mad that they change things as well, but not in the same magnitude because it was never advertised as such. And yet the game feels more like LotR than RoP.

[Syegfryed]

With this logic you all should be quite pleased with the level of accuracy RoP has since they have been clear that this adaptations will take liberties and try to go around the fact they dont have all rights to make it as true and good as possible. Just that every change will have the focus to keep the story Tolkien-esque and approved by Tolkien Estate.

That bit right there is where you are wrong. They didn't mare sure to be true neither good. Making mithril a magic metal from a silmarilion is not "tolkien" Tolkien never made that shit up, He never wrote about galadriel leading an army of numenorians to save "the southlands". And the result still was a shitshow. Plus, the current head of the tolkien estate is a clown that asked for Sauron to be Walter white and said the Jackson trilogy had too much from the books.

The bit about the rights its what bugs me all the time, they seem to cut stuff that apparently they can't use, but then they use something related later, like they could.

Like they didn't mention how the spider and Morgoth destroyed the trees, and don't say the elves went after Morgoth because the silmarilions, but they late mention the silmarilions anyway, so why the hell they changed before???

[Dhrizzle]

That bit right there is where you are wrong. They didn't mare sure to be true neither good. Making mithril a magic metal from a silmarilion is not "tolkien" Tolkien never made that shit up, He never wrote about galadriel leading an army of numenorians to save "the southlands". And the result still was a shitshow. Plus, the current head of the tolkien estate is a clown that asked for Sauron to be Walter white and said the Jackson trilogy had too much from the books.

The bit about the rights its what bugs me all the time, they seem to cut stuff that apparently they can't use, but then they use something related later, like they could.

Like they didn't mention how the spider and Morgoth destroyed the trees, and don't say the elves went after Morgoth because the silmarilions, but they late mention the silmarilions anyway, so why the hell they changed before???

The Silmarils are mentioned several times in the LotR books, the way Morgoth and Ungoliant destroy the trees are not. The licensing does seem pretty weird though as the series was made in consultation with the Estate so they can use some things with permission no already covered by the deal but what they can use seems throttled.

- - - Updated - - -

Without looking it up - I recall that they were very clear that they had all the rights they needed and that they were trying to be faithful to the books.

Neither thing ended up being true.

They have the rights to what was written in LotR, the relevant parts to this period are a few paragraphs that vaguely sketch the events in the appendices. They weren't given blanket permission to use whatever they want from the volumes Tolkien never finished like the Silmarillion.

[rhorle]

Without looking it up - I recall that they were very clear that they had all the rights they needed and that they were trying to be faithful to the books. Neither thing ended up being true.

How could they be Faithful to the books when they were telling a story not covered by the books? As early as Februrary 2022 it was made known that they weren't being faithful because of the time compression. That same article has them saying they are trying to do the novel that Tolkien never wrote. Which means they can't be faithful to a story that didn't exist from the original author.


https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...ies-first-look

[Syegfryed]

The Silmarils are mentioned several times in the LotR books, the way Morgoth and Ungoliant destroy the trees are not. The licensing does seem pretty weird though as the series was made in consultation with the Estate so they can use some things with permission no already covered by the deal but what they can use seems throttled.

Ok, even if you take ungoliat from the picture, the elves went after Morgoth because he stole the silmarilions, not because he destroyed the Tree, they could have mention that, but they chose to not do it, when they should be perfectly fine to do it, because silmarilions were mentioned many times like you said.

So, they did their own thing, not just because they didn't had the right, but because they want to.

Tolkien estate seems to be a circus to let all of this happen anyway.

[Triceron]

The Silmarils are mentioned several times in the LotR books, the way Morgoth and Ungoliant destroy the trees are not. The licensing does seem pretty weird though as the series was made in consultation with the Estate so they can use some things with permission no already covered by the deal but what they can use seems throttled.

The Estate is in different hands now. There's very little left of the strict gatekeeping that happened under Christopher Tolkien. What limitations Amazon had were probably directly from their deal with Christopher. Simon Tolkien seems to be absolutely fine with consulting and supporting what we see in RoP today.

[Syegfryed]

https://boundingintocomics.com/2023/...ion-of-mordor/

He explain things like he REALLY want to do his own thing and fuck the lore

[rhorle]

https://boundingintocomics.com/2023/...ion-of-mordor/

He explain things like he REALLY want to do his own thing and fuck the lore

That site is known to lie and has really hated on Rings of Power since even before the show was out. Of course they wanted to do their own thing because a show based on short snipets wouldn't be an actual show. I can't believe after all this time some of you are still under the impression that they wouldn't be filling in the blanks to create their own interpretation of Tolkien's work.

[Triceron]

As I've said several times, the role of the estate in this show is mystifying. They're like, "Hey, you can make up your own stuff that contradicts the lore, but you can't use the actual lore."

Seems like the estate is going for maximum cash these days.

Honestly, considering the amount Amazon paid for the liscencing, I don't blame them. Simon being a show consultant probably pays better than any of the novels he's written too.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

they are diving into a whole “morally gray” orcs story, which Tolkien might have loosely mused about in a letter but didn’t actually do cause it’s a bad idea

Given that Tolkien said the orcs were originally pure evil before he went back and changed it so they could in theory be good wouldn’t it more so it was one of the many ideas he didn’t have time to expand on before his death instead of it being an actual bad idea?

[Syegfryed]

Given that Tolkien said the orcs were originally pure evil before he went back and changed it so they could in theory be good wouldn’t it more so it was one of the many ideas he didn’t have time to expand on before his death instead of it being an actual bad idea?

Tolkien idea is that they could be redeemable, that could just means, they could be saved, in some way, like turning then back into what they once where(humans/beasts/elves), or similar,nNot that the orcs would be morally grey, which, could probably work as part of the grand plan of they eventually redeeming themselves or with help.

But that require actually work, effort and talented people, and probably a spin-off on its on cause its one hell of a work to pull off

- - - Updated - - -

As I've said several times, the role of the estate in this show is mystifying. They're like, "Hey, you can make up your own stuff that contradicts the lore, but you can't use the actual lore."

Seems like the estate is going for maximum cash these days.

apparently Simon Tolkien is the one to blame, why he wants to fuck up his grandfather legacy? dunno.

[rhorle]

Tolkien idea is that they could be redeemable, that could just means, they could be saved, in some way, like turning then back into what they once where(humans/beasts/elves), or similar,nNot that the orcs would be morally grey, which, could probably work as part of the grand plan of they eventually redeeming themselves or with help.

He never said they could be redeemed by being turned back to what they were. He just said after their creation they were part of God's world and thus could be good. One of his essays says they have a irremediable allegiance to evil and would keep that even if they rebelled against Sauron (since he isn't the source of their will). This looks to be one of the things he had small contradictions in his ever changing story even if the published one stayed the same.

Tolkien also said that every living was divided during the War of the Last Alliance except for the Elves. That does imply that Orcs fought against Sauron, right? So wouldn't those fighting against Sauron be morally grey if anything?

[bledgor]

Tolkien idea is that they could be redeemable, that could just means, they could be saved, in some way, like turning then back into what they once where(humans/beasts/elves), or similar,nNot that the orcs would be morally grey, which, could probably work as part of the grand plan of they eventually redeeming themselves or with help.

But that require actually work, effort and talented people, and probably a spin-off on its on cause its one hell of a work to pull off

- - - Updated - - -



apparently Simon Tolkien is the one to blame, why he wants to fuck up his grandfather legacy? dunno.

Like almost everything, money is why. Simon has no integrity, he just has a thirst for money.

[Syegfryed]

Like almost everything, money is why. Simon has no integrity, he just has a thirst for money.

But if he like money, they would have sold the silmarilion by now, maybe he is genuinely dumb or something, the interview of him saying Peter Jackson put too much from the books into the movie kills me every time.