Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Zenfoldor]

I did finally finish the show, and it wasn't actually THAT bad, it wasn't great, but it made decent filler between top end shows. I like the actress who played Galadriel. The writing was pretty bad. Oddly, some people didn't like the the hobbit like creatures, but I thought they were some of the best parts of the series. This isn't a show that I would get really into the lore about or anything, and that is unfortunate considering the IP. It isn't too much worse than The Witcher on Netflix(don't get me wrong Cavill is awesome, but without him that show isn't special) and very watchable. I'd give it maybe a 7/10 going by imdb scale, maybe a 6.9, assuming the recently released The Sandman or Peripheral being about an 8/10 in my book. Breaking Bad would be a 9/10, and I'd only rank a few other series higher, The Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, Star Trek TNG, ect.

This is slightly off topic, but honestly, with several pages of discussion on Walter White, I don't feel I'm stepping too far out of bounds here.

If you like Walter White as a character and morally questionable anti-hero or even just like Breaking Bad, I would highly recommend watching Mr. Inbetween.

[NineSpine]

This is the correct take.

The first murder could be considered self-defense, the guy tries to kill him at the RV in the desert, and then even when he survives Walter's chemical attack, Walter is considering letting him go until the guy takes a shard of plate and tries to kill him again.

I suppose you could argue anyone who decides to treat medical debt with large-scale meth production is morally bad from the get, but I don't consider drug dealing as morally bankrupt as what Walter White becomes. The show is called "Breaking Bad," not "Broke Bad."

FWIW, though, way too many viewers consider WW an antihero or even a hero, well after this (I believe it's third, not fifth) episode where he turns down the job offer. Some believe it even to the end of the show, which is ludicrous. He's a sociopath, and not morally grey at all, by the latest at the end of season 1.

I think you are giving him way too much credit for kidnapping a guy and killing him, when he could have called the police at any point in that process.

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I'll give you credit for the blatant gaslighting. Nice try.

What is this? Madlibs? It isn't "gaslighting" to point that that Walter White is a cold blooded murderer from day one. It's just a fact.

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Then don't. We wouldn't have anything to discuss, anyway.

There certainly cannot be any discussion with anyone as unnecessarily difficult and weirdly defensive as you are being.

Walter White is a straight up murderer from day one. It's a fucking fact.

[Triceron]

What is this? Madlibs? It isn't "gaslighting" to point that that Walter White is a cold blooded murderer from day one. It's just a fact.

It's exactly that, lol. It's a twisting of facts that you're trying to convince everyone of being true.

Is he a murderer? Yes he is. Is he cold blooded? Sure, I'll even give you that. Is he that from day one? Not in the fucking slightest.


Follow the last page or so of conversation. You call him a sociopath. I disagree, I don't think he's a sociopath at all. I would lean more towards him being a Narcissist. And I think Koriani does a pretty good job explaining the certain nuances and differences between the two. Walter White is a complex character. He isn't simply a cold-hearted murderer from the start. That would be more appropriate description for characters like Dexter. And I don't think a character like Dexter is comparable to someone like Walter White.

I'd say even Gus is more indicative of someone who may be sociopathic (perhaps even psychopathic), and in retrospect, I think the show even does well to contrast the differences between these characters. Both Gus and Walter are cold blooded killers, and both hold up squeaky clean public images. Their reasons for doing so are completely different though, and it carries through how they act and manipulate the people around them.

[rhorle]

Walter White is a straight up murderer from day one. It's a fucking fact.

I'm not sure how anyone is arguing against the first episode showing him to murder someone. I bet they are taking your day one literally since the first episode takes place over three weeks.

[NineSpine]

It's exactly that, lol. It's a twisting of facts that you're trying to convince everyone of being true.

Is he a murderer? Yes he is. Is he cold blooded? Sure, I'll even give you that. Is he that from day one? Not in the fucking slightest.


Follow the last page or so of conversation. You call him a sociopath. I disagree, I don't think he's a sociopath at all. I would lean more towards him being a Narcissist. And I think Koriani does a pretty good job explaining the certain nuances and differences between the two. Walter White is a complex character. He isn't simply a cold-hearted murderer from the start. That would be more appropriate description for characters like Dexter. And I don't think a character like Dexter is comparable to someone like Walter White.

I'd say even Gus is more indicative of someone who may be sociopathic (perhaps even psychopathic), and in retrospect, I think the show even does well to contrast the differences between these characters. Both Gus and Walter are cold blooded killers, and both hold up squeaky clean public images. Their reasons for doing so are completely different though, and it carries through how they act and manipulate the people around them.

Whether he is a narcissist or a sociopath, he is not morally grey, and that was the point I was responding to.

[Triceron]

Whether he is a narcissist or a sociopath, he is not morally grey, and that was the point I was responding to.

Yet you did call him a sociopath, very specifically. That was the point I was responding to.

[NineSpine]

Yet you did call him a sociopath, very specifically. That was the point I was responding to.

And I would still argue that he is a sociopath from the beginning and you are confusing a sociopath and a psychopath. Gus is a psychopath.

The point is that it is neither here nor there.

[Koriani]

Unfortunately while I watched "Better Call Saul" I never watched Breaking Bad - so I can't comment on the diagnosis part. Or the Sociopath vs. Psychopath thing as it pertains to Walter White. =D

(And dont' start on the YOU NEED TO WATCH... My husband has been drumming it for years and I refuse to go back and watch BB. =D)

[Fabinas]

Unfortunately while I watched "Better Call Saul" I never watched Breaking Bad - so I can't comment on the diagnosis part. Or the Sociopath vs. Psychopath thing as it pertains to Walter White. =D

(And dont' start on the YOU NEED TO WATCH... My husband has been drumming it for years and I refuse to go back and watch BB. =D)

Sorry. YOU DO NEED to watch it. Your husband is right and this ain't mansplaining. BB is the perfect anti-hero journey to villainy.

[Tentim]

One of my earliest comments in this thread is about how people who don’t know the canon will think it’s fine - no argument here.

The issue is, if you do know the canon, it’s a disaster.

I really wish they would let shows and movies stand on their own merits then piggy back off of ips.

It would solve a lot of issues with media atm.

[craigw]

i just re-watched the hobbit trilogy. just fantastic. ill go out and say and i know opinions vary but the lord of the rings double trilogy is better than the first two star wars trilogies.

[Triceron]

I really wish they would let shows and movies stand on their own merits then piggy back off of ips.

It would solve a lot of issues with media atm.

The problem is the show itself doesn't really stand very well on its own.

It's built on the expectation you've watched the PJ movies.

[Dhrizzle]

One of my earliest comments in this thread is about how people who don’t know the canon will think it’s fine - no argument here.

The issue is, if you do know the canon, it’s a disaster.

Out of interest what do you consider "canon" in Tolkien's work?

[Dhrizzle]

Silmarillion.

So a book Tolkienn never considered ready for publishing, that his son wasn't entirely satisfied with due to the editorial choices he had to make and which, even if it was completed to the author's satisfaction, doesn't give an accurate account of the history of Arda?

[Ivanstone]

Unfortunately while I watched "Better Call Saul" I never watched Breaking Bad - so I can't comment on the diagnosis part. Or the Sociopath vs. Psychopath thing as it pertains to Walter White. =D

(And dont' start on the YOU NEED TO WATCH... My husband has been drumming it for years and I refuse to go back and watch BB. =D)

You should just watch BB because it’s very good. The whole sociopathblahblahblah thing is not really relevant.

My friends were on me for years to watch the show. So I watched it in complete secrecy while they berated me. After I caught up I started trolling them on plot points that they would bring up in conversation with each other.

[Triceron]

I find most people's notion of LotR canon to be odd, personally. He was constantly revising the lore, even on the precipice of changing some fairly large things about the published works. Wouldn't his most recent notes, and whatever he was changing, trump anything before it (the stuff people typically use as "canon")be the most updated canon? Though, I suppose people generally just go based on what was officially published while he was alive, rather than posthumous notes. Which is still odd to me, but I get it.

To be fair, I think this can be said about most fiction that has continued for over decades. Star Wars, Marvel, Harry Potter, even Lovecraft all has shaky canon that keeps changing over the years. We practically have to treat every individual project like a multiverse.

[Dhrizzle]

I find most people's notion of LotR canon to be odd, personally. He was constantly revising the lore, even on the precipice of changing some fairly large things about the published works. Wouldn't his most recent notes, and whatever he was changing, trump anything before it (the stuff people typically use as "canon")be the most updated canon? Though, I suppose people generally just go based on what was officially published while he was alive, rather than posthumous notes. Which is still odd to me, but I get it.

To be fair, I think this can be said about most fiction that has continued for over decades. Star Wars, Marvel, Harry Potter, even Lovecraft all has shaky canon that keeps changing over the years. We practically have to treat every individual project like a multiverse.

It goes a little further with Tolkien. His works weren't just stories, they were the stories, myths and legends of fictional peoples and he allowed for misinformation and unreliable narrators. A reason for the lighter tone of the Hobbit compared to LotR is the fact it was Bilbo's story he used to tell to the young Hobbits so the more brutal parts would be toned down. Also in LotR you may remember talk of Bilbo initially lying about how he got the Ring and Gandalf having to bully the truth out of him. This is a reference to early editions of the Hobbit which had a very different encounter between Bilbo and Gollum when the Ring was just a ring. This was retconned in later publications after Tolkien made it part of his grander and more serious Legendarium.

The Silmarillion is the bundle of translated papers Bilbo gives to Frodo along with the Red Book. When Tolkien decided he preferred the idea of a round-world cosmology and orcs being created from Men rather than Elves he made it so the original texts were Sylvan and Mannish legends written by people who didn't know the actual truth.

There's also a late version of Galadriel's story in which she meets Celeborn (then called Teleporno) in Aman and they sail to Middle-earth together in the wake of the Noldor rebellion. Despite it being written quite late it's hard to consider it "canon" as Tolkien said it was written for "philosophical rather than historical reasons."

[Triceron]

Despite it being written quite late it's hard to consider it "canon" as Tolkien said it was written for "philosophical rather than historical reasons."

It's still way more canon than Shadows of Mordor, the Lord of the Rings Tabletop game, or Rings of Power. Even if it's just notes, it's been well accepted as part of the canon by many people. It's not universally accepted canon, but it's far from 'hard to consider'.

Just like there is plenty of non-Lucas Star Wars material that people would consider canon, even if not completely official or having been rendered non-canon. Stuff like Han shot first is non-canon that is still recognized as canon. Even Solo: A Star Wars Story intends to follow Han Shot First as canon, by the director's own admission.

I personally don't see canon as definitive. I'm more particular to the Wikipedia explanation of the term.
In fiction, canon is the material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story by its fan base

It's not just the official version by way of the author, but by what is accepted as official by the fanbase. I think that's a very nuanced, yet important distinction to make. And of course, one that builds infinite arguments amongst the fanbase on what is and isn't 'official'. The term is flexible enough to recognize that Han Shot First can be considered official canon, from a certain point of view.

[Dhrizzle]

It's still way more canon than Shadows of Mordor, the Lord of the Rings Tabletop game, or Rings of Power. Even if it's just notes, it's been well accepted as part of the canon by many people. It's not universally accepted canon, but it's far from 'hard to consider'.

Just like there is plenty of non-Lucas Star Wars material that people would consider canon, even if not completely official or having been rendered non-canon. Stuff like Han shot first is non-canon that is still recognized as canon. Even Solo: A Star Wars Story intends to follow Han Shot First as canon, by the director's own admission.

It's hard to consider it canon because almost nothing else in his writings agree with Teleporno/Celeborn being Calaquendi and Tolkien himself didn't bother trying to fit it into his story. If you accept that as canon you might as well say Frodo set out from the Shire with a single Hobbit called Marmaduke, Sauron is Lord of Cats and Galadriel is a gnome.

[Triceron]

It's hard to consider it canon because almost nothing else in his writings agree with Teleporno/Celeborn being Calaquendi and Tolkien himself didn't bother trying to fit it into his story.

Just because you don't accept it as canon doesn't mean it's not either. I mean, like I said, the term is flexible and has many different interpretations. There isn't one single canon when we're talking about something as complex and nuanced as Tolkien's universe, which he himself has changed numerous times over the course of decades.

There's plenty of inconsistencies between Hobbit and LOTR which you touched on yourself, and much of it gets retconned.

If you accept that as canon you might as well say Frodo set out from the Shire with a single Hobbit called Marmaduke, Sauron is Lord of Cats and Galadriel is a gnome.

Fans have a right to consider what material from official sources they would consider canon. Your example here is purely fanfiction.

Like I said above, we do have post-Tolkien, official Lord of the Rings authorized material like Shadows of Mordor, LOTR Tabletop and Rings of Power. These are material that are not widely accepted as canon, if at all, by the fanbase. So even if we're talking about something ridiculous like Shelob being a sexy lady, or the individual identities of all nine Nazgul, what is and isn't considered canon is generally based on what the fanbase accepts. Because the term 'canon' doesn't really exist officially. There is no official authority dictating what is canon and what is not; the entire term is centered around how the fanbase categorizes all Tolkien related material and which material accepted as part of the same continuity.

That is why I used the multiverse example. For example, PJ's movies are clearly within their own universe. The Hobbit movies are an official part of that continuity. Rings of Power aims itself to fit itself into that same continuity. Whether Rings of Power is canon to the PJ movies would be up to the fans to decide. Some people do consider it part of the same continuity, some do not.