1. #8561
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post

    I would say he had a twisted sense of morality, one where he justified every action he did as being noble and purposeful.
    This is the definition of a sociopath.

  2. #8562
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    This is the definition of a sociopath.
    No, it is not.

    A Sociopath has no morals, as in a complete lacking of it. That is not the same as someone who is morally corrupt, who tries to justify their bad actions. As in, they have morals, but they're manipulated and twisted to fit a selfish purpose.

  3. #8563
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    No, it is not.

    A Sociopath has no morals, as in a complete lacking of it. That is not the same as someone who is morally corrupt, who tries to justify their bad actions. As in, they have morals, but they're manipulated and twisted to fit a selfish purpose.
    This, but about what I expect from a mod here. On topic I find it sad Hollywood seems so fixated on having "grey" villains with some attempt to justify their actions instead of people who just turn out to be evil.
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  4. #8564
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    No, it is not.

    A Sociopath has no morals, as in a complete lacking of it. That is not the same as someone who is morally corrupt, who tries to justify their bad actions. As in, they have morals, but they're manipulated and twisted to fit a selfish purpose.
    Sociopaths lack empathy, they don't lack "morality." They make up their own morality to justify their behavior.

    To be diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder, you need only 3 of the following 7 criteria (Bold is my emphasis):

    1. Failure to conform to social norms concerning lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
    2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
    3. Impulsivity or failure to plan
    4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
    5. Having no regard for the safety of self or others
    6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
    7. Lack of remorse, or inability to feel guilt, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

    Other symptoms someone with antisocial personality disorder may exhibit are:

    Acting charming, kind, or lying to resolve personal goals or means
    Exuding a sense of superiority or arrogance
    Partaking in impulsivity and being prone to taking risks or engaging in dangerous behavior with little regard for how it may affect others
    A lack of empathy or compassionate feelings towards others or a situation
    Hostile, aggressive behavior, or violence
    Being dishonest or lying to people
    A shaky moral code or difficulty following societal norms
    Being irresponsible
    An inability to maintain healthy relationships
    A lack of regard for rules
    A potential history of criminal behavior

    Walter White didn't delay in killing Jane. He just thought out the decision, and then decided to let her die. He wasn't hesitating because of empathy - if he had any empathy, he would have helped her. But because she was a hindrance to his emotional manipulation of Jesse, he consciously made the decision to let her OD. Every relationship is about serving his own image. Vince Gilligan had to go out of his way in the last season to practically have Bryan Cranston look into the camera and say "I did this for myself, not for my family."

  5. #8565
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    The thing on Walter White is: what if he didn’t get cancer, and just lived a normal life, which he seemed willing to do at first?
    Most people who have a set routine in life continue to live through the routine out of sheer comfort. Whether they recognize or acknowledge there is a need for change, it's usually very difficult to address or change just on the basis of recognition or acknowledgement. It takes a lot of willpower to commit to a drastic change, to be taken out of a 'comfort zone'. Could be anything like breaking out of an addiction, or changing a habit, or even just committing to an exersize routine.

    Reaching a low point in life makes it easier to break out of the comfort zone and make radical changes. There's nothing left to lose.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Walter White didn't delay in killing Jane. He just thought out the decision, and then decided to let her die. He wasn't hesitating because of empathy - if he had any empathy, he would have helped her. But because she was a hindrance to his emotional manipulation of Jesse, he consciously made the decision to let her OD. Every relationship is about serving his own image. Vince Gilligan had to go out of his way in the last season to practically have Bryan Cranston look into the camera and say "I did this for myself, not for my family."


    He hesitated. "No no no" does not suggest he immediately let her die. Let's not change the facts of what happened in the show.

    You can explain how a sociopath is defined by not having empathy. You can't tell me that Walter White has no empathy if his first instinctive reaction to Jane was to help her. He isn't lacking empathy. He is quick to subdue his emotions and moral compass. He isn't lacking a regard for rules, he is actively justifying his choice to disregard them. At this point in the show, he is morally reprehensible, but clearly not sociopathic.

    A sociopath may be defined by having shaky moral code, but you can't just apply this terminology to anyone who has a shaky moral code. A sociopath is a very specific term for someone who literally does not feel guilt or remorse for their actions. Walter White FEELS guilt and remorse. Just because he actively ignores his feelings and acts against his better judgement does not mean he does not have feelings.

    This is even indicative of the ending where he genuinely tries to connect back to his family. That's generally not how a sociopath would act if their family no longer served any purpose to them.

    -edit-

    Looking into this more deeply online, it looks like people attribute WW as being a narcissist, which can often be confused with sociopathy. Both have shaky moral codes, both are willing to do manipulate people for self interests (Narcissist to feed their egos, Sociopaths for the pleasure of it). But the differences become clearer if we recognize that a Narcissist also tries and maintains a good public image and is concerned about what other people think of them, while a sociopath generally does not care about those things at all.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-01-19 at 05:39 PM.

  6. #8566
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    This, but about what I expect from a mod here. On topic I find it sad Hollywood seems so fixated on having "grey" villains with some attempt to justify their actions instead of people who just turn out to be evil.
    It is entertainment. The main characters are supposed to be someone viewers can relate to. Very few people want to watch someone purely evil. Just look at how populer the Netflix Dahmer show was and how they romanticized him a little.

    As for a sociopath they don't always lack morals. Their "moral compass" is just off or skewed. It is filtered through their own perspective and unique to them. They key for a sociopath is that they have a weak conscience but it won't stop their behavior. They may feel guilt or remorse but won't be swayed by it. But don't let this stop you from senselessly blaming a mod.
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  7. #8567
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post

    Walter White didn't delay in killing Jane. He just thought out the decision, and then decided to let her die. He wasn't hesitating because of empathy - if he had any empathy, he would have helped her. But because she was a hindrance to his emotional manipulation of Jesse, he consciously made the decision to let her OD. Every relationship is about serving his own image. Vince Gilligan had to go out of his way in the last season to practically have Bryan Cranston look into the camera and say "I did this for myself, not for my family."
    Not only the video proved you wrong (on both your claims about WW and your aversion of re-experiencing media), you go ahead and point to a WW on his "final form" as an argument to prove something on 2nd season, where humanity and empathy still existed in his character.

    Bleh, you probably have me blocked, but who cares? People will read and judge for themselves about WW, anyway.
    /spit@Blizzard

  8. #8568
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Looking into this more deeply online, it looks like people attribute WW as being a narcissist, which can often be confused with sociopathy. Both have shaky moral codes, both are willing to do manipulate people for self interests (Narcissist to feed their egos, Sociopaths for the pleasure of it). But the differences become clearer if we recognize that a Narcissist also tries and maintains a good public image and is concerned about what other people think of them, while a sociopath generally does not care about those things at all.
    Hmm, a malignant narcissist probably does fit better than sociopath. I dislike the label narcissist though, purely because people think it's "less bad" when they can probably be just as destructive as sociopaths.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    Bleh, you probably have me blocked, but who cares? People will read and judge for themselves about WW, anyway.
    I'm a moderator, I don't have anyone on my block list.

  9. #8569
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Sociopaths lack empathy, they don't lack "morality." They make up their own morality to justify their behavior.

    To be diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder, you need only 3 of the following 7 criteria (Bold is my emphasis):

    1. Failure to conform to social norms concerning lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
    2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
    3. Impulsivity or failure to plan
    4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
    5. Having no regard for the safety of self or others
    6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
    7. Lack of remorse, or inability to feel guilt, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

    Other symptoms someone with antisocial personality disorder may exhibit are:

    Acting charming, kind, or lying to resolve personal goals or means
    Exuding a sense of superiority or arrogance
    Partaking in impulsivity and being prone to taking risks or engaging in dangerous behavior with little regard for how it may affect others
    A lack of empathy or compassionate feelings towards others or a situation
    Hostile, aggressive behavior, or violence
    Being dishonest or lying to people
    A shaky moral code or difficulty following societal norms
    Being irresponsible
    An inability to maintain healthy relationships
    A lack of regard for rules
    A potential history of criminal behavior
    I'm only saying this because its my profession -

    Antisocial Personality Disorder is NOT all equivalent to Psychopath or Sociopath. Neither is Narcissism. Or any single disorder - equivalent to the term Psychopath and Sociopath and how they are 'used' in today's parlance.

    The issue we have (in the general field) is that Psychopath and Sociopath actually aren't defined as diagnoseable disorders. Hell, there's still arguments between professionals in the field all over about how we ARE defining those terms and what 'exactly' is Sociopath vs. Psychopath. And while AntisocialPD IS (obviously) a specifically defined Disorder (like NarcissisticPD), NONE of these terms are interchangeable or equivalent. They DO have "Symptoms" in common (all of the above have a lack of empathy for example), obviously, but they are not equal or 'the same' in other ways.

    You can have sociopaths who are not Antisocial (but they probably would all qualify for Narcissistic Personality Disorder). These are your 'functioning' sociopaths, who can be very successful.
    You can have Antisocial PD and they are NOT psychopaths or sociopaths. Just idiot criminals in prison, violating the rights of, and blaming, others.
    You can have NarcissisticPD and NOT be a sociopath or psychopath.

    As someone with a professional mastery of Psychology and an amateur study interest in Serial Killers/Psychopaths - this is more the way I conceptualize this:

    Psychopath (or Sociopath - again these terms are so muddied even as they aren't meant to be interchangeable - there IS a difference) you're basically seeing MULTIPLE personality disorders present. Any one of the *single* personality disorders does /not/ make a psychopath.

    A Psychopath - well that's Narcissism, Borderline (or Histrionic, depending), AND Antisocial PD - all in one. These people are so beyond "normal" dysfunctional, they aren't qualifying for just one personality disorder. But checking the criteria boxes of 3. The Unholy Trifecta - if you will. =D

    But you can't "diagnose" Psychopathy or Sociopathy (at least not yet). They aren't terms used *that way* in the actual professional field. They're still more vague, or more 'overarching concepts' the field is still working on nailing down. Just like "insanity" is a legal term, not a psychological one, and not used so much in the psych-professional field. We absolutely "Determine mental competency", but that more also revolves and concerns itself with the "Why" - whether that's someone with a psychosis, or a brief dissociative episode, or low IQ, or developmental delay, or intoxicated, etc. "Insanity" doesn't come into it and isn't a term that applies, psychologically speaking.

    And if you want more details or explanations on this I'm happy to dive into it - I just didn't want to go into a differential diagnosis lecture in the LOTR thread =D. But the academic in me couldn't just let this sit there without clarification and explanation.

    Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Hmm, a malignant narcissist probably does fit better than sociopath. I dislike the label narcissist though, purely because people think it's "less bad" when they can probably be just as destructive as sociopaths.
    I will agree with you there. People really underestimate the destructive toxic power of a Narcissist.
    But Narcissist is not an interchangeable term with Sociopath.

    But people, in general, don't really understand "get" how a Personality Disorder is (literally) a whole other level of mental health disorder than every other disorder that isn't a Personality Disorder. (As there are only 9 PDs and over 100 other disorders). We're talking about the skewing and dysfunction of someone's /entire/ personality, how they see /all of reality/, their entire world view. And how they believe everyone else sees it, too.

    And I'd also like to clarify - Narcissists do NOT CARE WHAT PEOPLE THINK in a way that means they change their behavior. "They care what people think" only in that they want some sort of "public face" that tricks people into doing what they want and serving their ego. The moment the narcissist knows they can't pull off that 'public face' to someone doesn't mean they change their behavior, they just villianize/trash that individual in whatever way they desire, and move on always secure in their own superiority. I've seen many people misunderstand the 'care what people think' part of this and think that means the Disordered person curbs their behavior, and that is NOT in any way, correct. (true personality disordered) Narcissists do /not/ change - it violates their entire reality. There's no reason to change when everyone else is just wrong.
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  10. #8570
    I did finally finish the show, and it wasn't actually THAT bad, it wasn't great, but it made decent filler between top end shows. I like the actress who played Galadriel. The writing was pretty bad. Oddly, some people didn't like the the hobbit like creatures, but I thought they were some of the best parts of the series. This isn't a show that I would get really into the lore about or anything, and that is unfortunate considering the IP. It isn't too much worse than The Witcher on Netflix(don't get me wrong Cavill is awesome, but without him that show isn't special) and very watchable. I'd give it maybe a 7/10 going by imdb scale, maybe a 6.9, assuming the recently released The Sandman or Peripheral being about an 8/10 in my book. Breaking Bad would be a 9/10, and I'd only rank a few other series higher, The Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, Star Trek TNG, ect.

    This is slightly off topic, but honestly, with several pages of discussion on Walter White, I don't feel I'm stepping too far out of bounds here.

    If you like Walter White as a character and morally questionable anti-hero or even just like Breaking Bad, I would highly recommend watching Mr. Inbetween.
    Last edited by Zenfoldor; 2023-01-19 at 09:22 PM.

  11. #8571
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    This is the correct take.

    The first murder could be considered self-defense, the guy tries to kill him at the RV in the desert, and then even when he survives Walter's chemical attack, Walter is considering letting him go until the guy takes a shard of plate and tries to kill him again.

    I suppose you could argue anyone who decides to treat medical debt with large-scale meth production is morally bad from the get, but I don't consider drug dealing as morally bankrupt as what Walter White becomes. The show is called "Breaking Bad," not "Broke Bad."

    FWIW, though, way too many viewers consider WW an antihero or even a hero, well after this (I believe it's third, not fifth) episode where he turns down the job offer. Some believe it even to the end of the show, which is ludicrous. He's a sociopath, and not morally grey at all, by the latest at the end of season 1.
    I think you are giving him way too much credit for kidnapping a guy and killing him, when he could have called the police at any point in that process.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'll give you credit for the blatant gaslighting. Nice try.
    What is this? Madlibs? It isn't "gaslighting" to point that that Walter White is a cold blooded murderer from day one. It's just a fact.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    Then don't. We wouldn't have anything to discuss, anyway.
    There certainly cannot be any discussion with anyone as unnecessarily difficult and weirdly defensive as you are being.

    Walter White is a straight up murderer from day one. It's a fucking fact.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  12. #8572
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    What is this? Madlibs? It isn't "gaslighting" to point that that Walter White is a cold blooded murderer from day one. It's just a fact.
    It's exactly that, lol. It's a twisting of facts that you're trying to convince everyone of being true.

    Is he a murderer? Yes he is. Is he cold blooded? Sure, I'll even give you that. Is he that from day one? Not in the fucking slightest.


    Follow the last page or so of conversation. You call him a sociopath. I disagree, I don't think he's a sociopath at all. I would lean more towards him being a Narcissist. And I think Koriani does a pretty good job explaining the certain nuances and differences between the two. Walter White is a complex character. He isn't simply a cold-hearted murderer from the start. That would be more appropriate description for characters like Dexter. And I don't think a character like Dexter is comparable to someone like Walter White.

    I'd say even Gus is more indicative of someone who may be sociopathic (perhaps even psychopathic), and in retrospect, I think the show even does well to contrast the differences between these characters. Both Gus and Walter are cold blooded killers, and both hold up squeaky clean public images. Their reasons for doing so are completely different though, and it carries through how they act and manipulate the people around them.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-01-19 at 11:42 PM.

  13. #8573
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Walter White is a straight up murderer from day one. It's a fucking fact.
    I'm not sure how anyone is arguing against the first episode showing him to murder someone. I bet they are taking your day one literally since the first episode takes place over three weeks.
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  14. #8574
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's exactly that, lol. It's a twisting of facts that you're trying to convince everyone of being true.

    Is he a murderer? Yes he is. Is he cold blooded? Sure, I'll even give you that. Is he that from day one? Not in the fucking slightest.


    Follow the last page or so of conversation. You call him a sociopath. I disagree, I don't think he's a sociopath at all. I would lean more towards him being a Narcissist. And I think Koriani does a pretty good job explaining the certain nuances and differences between the two. Walter White is a complex character. He isn't simply a cold-hearted murderer from the start. That would be more appropriate description for characters like Dexter. And I don't think a character like Dexter is comparable to someone like Walter White.

    I'd say even Gus is more indicative of someone who may be sociopathic (perhaps even psychopathic), and in retrospect, I think the show even does well to contrast the differences between these characters. Both Gus and Walter are cold blooded killers, and both hold up squeaky clean public images. Their reasons for doing so are completely different though, and it carries through how they act and manipulate the people around them.
    Whether he is a narcissist or a sociopath, he is not morally grey, and that was the point I was responding to.
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  15. #8575
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Whether he is a narcissist or a sociopath, he is not morally grey, and that was the point I was responding to.
    Yet you did call him a sociopath, very specifically. That was the point I was responding to.

  16. #8576
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yet you did call him a sociopath, very specifically. That was the point I was responding to.
    And I would still argue that he is a sociopath from the beginning and you are confusing a sociopath and a psychopath. Gus is a psychopath.

    The point is that it is neither here nor there.
    Last edited by NineSpine; 2023-01-20 at 03:33 PM.
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  17. #8577
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    Unfortunately while I watched "Better Call Saul" I never watched Breaking Bad - so I can't comment on the diagnosis part. Or the Sociopath vs. Psychopath thing as it pertains to Walter White. =D

    (And dont' start on the YOU NEED TO WATCH... My husband has been drumming it for years and I refuse to go back and watch BB. =D)
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  18. #8578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    Unfortunately while I watched "Better Call Saul" I never watched Breaking Bad - so I can't comment on the diagnosis part. Or the Sociopath vs. Psychopath thing as it pertains to Walter White. =D

    (And dont' start on the YOU NEED TO WATCH... My husband has been drumming it for years and I refuse to go back and watch BB. =D)
    Sorry. YOU DO NEED to watch it. Your husband is right and this ain't mansplaining. BB is the perfect anti-hero journey to villainy.
    /spit@Blizzard

  19. #8579
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    One of my earliest comments in this thread is about how people who don’t know the canon will think it’s fine - no argument here.

    The issue is, if you do know the canon, it’s a disaster.
    I really wish they would let shows and movies stand on their own merits then piggy back off of ips.

    It would solve a lot of issues with media atm.

  20. #8580
    i just re-watched the hobbit trilogy. just fantastic. ill go out and say and i know opinions vary but the lord of the rings double trilogy is better than the first two star wars trilogies.

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