Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Nask]

Okay so you agree that men in Middle Earth reproduce asexually by laying eggs?

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish with this retarded assertion, when in Silmarillion, childbirth is in fact mentioned. Been a while, but I think it's in the 12th chapter. Also, did you unironically say black people can't be "fair and elegant"?

[Jastall]

There's times when I wonder if studios actually try and stir up negative PR just for the sake of building a buzz that would otherwise fly under the radar.

Sonic movie definitely reminds me of this, and I still question if it was a manufactured controversy.

Not always, but I do agree that sometimes that's what happens. Perhaps not always the casting itself, but talking about it and having those quotes about how progressive they are and how they want to represent the modern world et all. No doubt some are genuine, but others know it's the sort of thing that gets a certain portion of the internet to enter a black rage and boost engagement on social media.

[Bladesyphon]

I missed the part where Galadriel and Elrond are fucking black now lmao. Are Middle Earth Elves truly the last bastion of white supremacists?

Sounds like you completely missed his point. With Chadwick Boseman no longer with us, they obviously need to recast a new Black Panther for the sequel. The point he's making is - instead of making the obvious choice (Shuri) into the new Black Panther, why not just have a white male with blue eyes and blonde-hair that just so happens to live in Wakanda take up the mantle instead?

It's like you guys said - what's the harm in having a black elf, clearly we're all just being "Triggered" by his skin color. So, by that same logic, what's the harm in having the next hero to don the Black Panther suit be an entirely new original character that's not part of the comics, and is a white man living in Wakanda. After all, if you don't like it, the original comics and first movie still exist, you can just read those!

[rogoth]

So lets say that they stick more or less to the lore (no real plot to stick to I believe) and it fits in fine with the movies would the show get a pass as well? Or are things likes making the dwarfs who never had a defined race black a step to far but removing some character and changing core one's isn't?

some of the changes the movies made were done because of both budget constraints, but also because it had to fit in the movie format, if it had been a TV series and was allowed the same level of care and attention then it's likely that those who were cut from the films might have had even full episodes dedicated to them, i mean be honest here, how many people would be willing to sit through a single film run time of 8-12 hours FOR EACH FILM if not longer if you include the scouring of the shire battle for ROTK, it's a matter of logistics, and actually the fact that some characters were omitted, while annoying for fans who wanted to see them shown in media, it was easier to explain away for the show runners and it was also understandable for fans at the time, plus you need to keep in mind, during the time the PJ trilogy landed, this tokenism movement and wokeness agenda wasn't even a thing, so it was never something people cared about or thought about in any capacity, meaning that when things were decided, that wasn't at the forefront of their thoughts, here's some exmaples of changes:

the character of Denethor in was made to reinforce the film portraying the whole plight of Gondor as hopeless, if they had stuck to the source material it would have shown Denethor as a stalwart guardian of his people, a kind and respected leader, not the egomaniacal self centred crap that was portrayed in the film.

another example is that prince imrahil, the lord and protector of the kingdom of Dol Amroth got 1 single line in the entire series of films, he's the blond haired guy who says to Denethor when Faramir is brought back inside the city 'they were overrun', when in reality the kingdom of Dol Amroth and the swan knights therein were the most respected and feared cavalry in the whole of middle earth but never once did any make it on to screen.

there's the obvious omission of tom bombadill from fellowship, but i think the fact they didn't explain anything of how magic works in middle earth during the films, it would have been too much to have tom bombadill in the films and just expect people to accept he exists.

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Why does it have to have been portrayed before? This series isn't portraying anything that's ever seen before. It's not even based on anything we've actually seen portrayed before. These characters are completely all new to the universe, and are ultimately non-canonical.

As a general rule set by the Tolkien estate, Amazon is not allowed to alter is the history of Middle Earth, otherwise they seem okay with all of these changes.

Movies and games set in the LOTR universe don't have to be canonical to the books, whether we're talking about the LOTR movie adaptations, the videogames, the tabletop games, or this new series. They're ultimately liscenced products that exist within their own canon.

i guess Elrond/Galadriel/Gil-galad/Celebrimbor don't count then?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

snip

So I don't disagree with any thing you said but you kinda side stepped the question completely.

[uuuhname]

Sounds like you completely missed his point. With Chadwick Boseman no longer with us, they obviously need to recast a new Black Panther for the sequel. The point he's making is - instead of making the obvious choice (Shuri) into the new Black Panther, why not just have a white male with blue eyes and blonde-hair that just so happens to live in Wakanda take up the mantle instead?

It's like you guys said - what's the harm in having a black elf, clearly we're all just being "Triggered" by his skin color. So, by that same logic, what's the harm in having the next hero to don the Black Panther suit be an entirely new original character that's not part of the comics, and is a white man living in Wakanda. After all, if you don't like it, the original comics and first movie still exist, you can just read those!

the obvious problem you're ignoring with this is no one is taking an existing character and changing their race. while the other is making a new character entirely who happens to be darker in skin tone. holy fucking shit, like, clearly one choice is being made in either a genuine or cynical way at representing different races in media and the other is being a petty child who thinks this is a zero sum game.

[Nurasu]

Sounds like you completely missed his point. With Chadwick Boseman no longer with us, they obviously need to recast a new Black Panther for the sequel. The point he's making is - instead of making the obvious choice (Shuri) into the new Black Panther, why not just have a white male with blue eyes and blonde-hair that just so happens to live in Wakanda take up the mantle instead?

It's like you guys said - what's the harm in having a black elf, clearly we're all just being "Triggered" by his skin color. So, by that same logic, what's the harm in having the next hero to don the Black Panther suit be an entirely new original character that's not part of the comics, and is a white man living in Wakanda. After all, if you don't like it, the original comics and first movie still exist, you can just read those!

I guess I would ask why you think their whiteness is relevant to who they are as a character, where all of Wakanda is framed as a Black society living in a largely White-Colonized world.

[Triceron]

Sounds like you completely missed his point. With Chadwick Boseman no longer with us, they obviously need to recast a new Black Panther for the sequel. The point he's making is - instead of making the obvious choice (Shuri) into the new Black Panther, why not just have a white male with blue eyes and blonde-hair that just so happens to live in Wakanda take up the mantle instead?

If Marvel wanted to tell a story about this, they absolutely can. And multiverse stuff is fully embraced, with each 'universe' having its own self contained canon to tell these variations of stories. What If is the prime example of where stuff like this could easily be told.

With Rings of Power, we're talking about the same thing. It's a story set in the Second Age of the Tolkien mythology, but it's non-canonical to the books. Just like Shadows of Mordor. Just like the LOTR Tabletop games. Just like Peter Jackson's own Lord of the Rings and Hobbit trilogies. These are all non-canonical adaptations of the universe that was defined in the books.

It's like you guys said - what's the harm in having a black elf, clearly we're all just being "Triggered" by his skin color. So, by that same logic, what's the harm in having the next hero to don the Black Panther suit be an entirely new original character that's not part of the comics, and is a white man living in Wakanda. After all, if you don't like it, the original comics and first movie still exist, you can just read those!

It isn't a big deal to have Black Panther be portrayed by an entirely new character that has not been in the comics, who is a white man. Hell, they had a half-white Jewish man take up the mantle of Black Panther in the comics.

You're making a big deal out of nothing.

[Bladesyphon]

the obvious problem you're ignoring with this is no one is taking an existing character and changing their race. while the other is making a new character entirely who happens to be darker in skin tone. holy fucking shit, like, clearly one choice is being made in either a genuine or cynical way at representing different races in media and the other is being a petty child who thinks this is a zero sum game.

So then what you're saying is you're perfectly okay with the idea of a white man living in Wakanda becoming the next Black Panther?

It isn't a big deal to have Black Panther be portrayed by an entirely new character that has not been in the comics, who is a white man.

You're making a big deal out of nothing.

There is no way you're honestly so naive that you legitimately believe that if Marvel were to make the next Black Panther a white man, there wouldn't be the backlash to end all backlashes from it. Hell, even as a white guy myself, *I* would be offended and disgusted by them recasting the Black Panther as some white guy who just so happens to live in Wakanda without any explanation what so ever.

[rogoth]

So lets say that they should be more faithful then the movies, I don't know enough about Tolkien's work to know but outside of visual aesthetic what exactly is putting this into Fanfiction?

Galadriel never fought in wars, she was never a 'warrior princess', Elrond was never a 'politician' or 'manipulating thinker', ignoring the whole 'racism' debate, all dwarves are born with beards, how is it that all of a sudden we have one in a position of power without one, all elves had long flowing hair, not a buzzcut fade.

they have made the timeline of events much closer together than the lore depicted them being, meaning that certain characters will meet when in the source material, the first character died centuries before the second character making it impossible for them to ever meet, the whole 'harfoot' thing, this race of beings didn't exist in the second age of middle earth, and certainly not during the Annatar lord of gifts period of time, so having them simply exist is self inserted fantasy.

i could go on but hopefully this paints enough of a picture for you.

[Nurasu]

So then what you're saying is you're perfectly okay with the idea of a white man living in Wakanda becoming the next Black Panther?

Didn't we already kind of go here with the Winter Soldier anyway?

[Syegfryed]

So lets say that they should be more faithful then the movies, I don't know enough about Tolkien's work to know but outside of visual aesthetic what exactly is putting this into Fanfiction?

from what i read and the authors saying, they are changing characters personalities(way too much), changing events, putting their own new stuff/adding new characters, making things that happen in a spawn of what, hundred of years to happen at the same time.

You take this, and put with the characterization being bad(not about skin color), how elves and dwarves don't look like elves and dwarves, despite the absurd budget, heavy CGI that make look like the characters are in a video-game., everything is too clean and figurine seems like cosplay, you know why this is suffering such blacklash.

At least the second part can be fixed and could be a problem in the trailer, but the first part seems like is set in stone.

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Didn't we already kind of go here with the Winter Soldier anyway?

he specifically became the "white wolf", i don't remember if there is a comics of him becoming black panther.

[uuuhname]

So then what you're saying is you're perfectly okay with the idea of a white man living in Wakanda becoming the next Black Panther?

no, because its obvious why you're doing it.

again, this is an absurd comparison to make. you're claiming that a new character, who has never existed in the LoTR cannon being dark skin is the exact same thing as making black panther into a white guy. it's fucking absurd and I feel bad for having to explain this to someone I assume is a grown ass adult.

[rogoth]

So I don't disagree with any thing you said but you kinda side stepped the question completely.

when they were marketing the films, they came out and said ahead of time that some stuff wouldn't make it into the film, they set expectations, they made sure that fans were happy enough with the final product and there was, for as much as could have been, transparent communication between what the films would be, and what they wouldn't be, they never tried to hide stuff because they knew it was shit, they didn't name call fans if they disagreed with their direction, there was actual discourse, so while as i said previously, some diehard book fans were pissed off, and some fans were upset at the omissions/changes, it was understood ahead of time and understood going into it, unlike with Amazon who have gone full woke, and have not communicated with anybody outside of name calling people who don't agree with their view point.

[Triceron]

i guess Elrond/Galadriel/Gil-galad/Celebrimbor don't count then?

The portrayals of these characters will be absolutely new, and canonical only to this series.

If they have Galadriel doing some badass shit that was never described in the books or shown in any movies, then that is portraying something that's never seen before.

The only thing that Amazon has to adhere to is not changing the overall history of the Tolkien mythology. Anything else told in between is really fair game.

The Elrond/Galadriel/Gil-galad/Celebrimbor you see here will be characters as you've never seen them portrayed before. No different than these characters appearing in a game like Shadows of Mordor and being portrayed differently from the books or the PJ movie counterparts.

[Xath]

Ok...

Without googling:
I believe 20% african americans
Around 60% Caucasian
Around 15% asian americans
The rest a mix of other ethnicities

Googling:
57% caucasian
18% hispanic (completely forgot them, shame on me I suppose)
12% African American
6% Asian american
and them the rest.

Not as far off as I thought to be honest. Although i did forget the hispanic population, which was my bad.

That's radically far off? You thought due to television and movies there were nearly twice as many black people as there were 3 times as many asians and vastly fewer hispanics. Not sure how you can claim casting opportunities don't exist for black americans when you think that their population in the US is twice as large as it is now if you want to talk about hispanic roles we can have a definite discussion there.

[Triceron]

There is no way you're honestly so naive that you legitimately believe that if Marvel were to make the next Black Panther a white man, there wouldn't be the backlash to end all backlashes from it. Hell, even as a white guy myself, *I* would be offended and disgusted by them recasting the Black Panther as some white guy who just so happens to live in Wakanda without any explanation what so ever.

I don't think Kevin Feige or the creative leads at Disney would ever do this for Black Panther, but let's not dance around the fact that we have a current Black Captain America that is canon to the MCU right now. What is the difference, really?

[Sarethion]

Eh, the teaser isn't "bad", but I don't think it's that exciting either - I guess the best word to describe it would be: "meh".

I'm reserving my judgement until we see a full trailer, though... as a sucker for fantasy shows, I'll probably give the first season a shot anyway.

[rogoth]

no, because its obvious why you're doing it.

again, this is an absurd comparison to make. you're claiming that a new character, who has never existed in the LoTR cannon being dark skin is the exact same thing as making black panther into a white guy. it's fucking absurd and I feel bad for having to explain this to someone I assume is a grown ass adult.

and yet you, a 'grown ass adult' fails to see that this is the EXACT comparison being made here, how is casting a white guy as head of an all black African tribe any different that casting a black woman as leader of a white clan of dwarves who have never had any black characters ever?, what's the fundamental difference here aside from both being absurd?

[Bladesyphon]

I don't think Kevin Feige or the creative leads at Disney would ever do this for Black Panther, but let's not dance around the fact that we have a current Black Captain America that is canon to the MCU right now. What is the difference, really?

...That there was a black Captain America in the comics before? Granted it wasn't Sam, but the idea of there being a black Captain America is not a new original idea that was created by the MCU.

Again, this is what we're all getting at - You wouldn't expect, nor want, a white man to don the cowl of the Black Panther because of how horribly abominable that would be to pretty much everything about the Black Panther and his backstory. In the same vein, then, why should it not be okay for us to be upset about them casting a black man with a modern haircut to play a Tolkien elf, and the first female dwarf we've seen on screen not to sport a beard, to say nothing about what they're doing to Elrond and Galadriel.

That's the problem we have with this - they're not respecting the lore, and they're ticking boxes just to make themselves look forward thinking. If they wanted to tell a story about a racial diverse sect of Middle Earth, then they had the entireity of the Esterlings, a criminally underused portion of Tolkien's lore, to work with, and I would have been all for it.

But what Amazon's doing with The Lord of the Rings IP is just as disrespectful to the source material, and Tolkien's work, as what they did with the Wheel of Time.