1. #8601
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It absolutely does though. Whilst there is a huge amount of debate over everything else The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings are canon by all applicable definitions.
    We're not debating whether the Hobbit or LOTR are canon though.

    My reply is specifically in context of external materials being regarded as canon. "Canon" is not mutually exclusive to a singular authoritative source.

    Nope, they are officially recognised by the original author (who left notes in the knowledge he wouldn't live to complete the work,) new author, publisher and author's estate as being the canonical continuation of the Wheel of Time. This is different to Tolkien's Legendarium where the general consensus is "this is what he wrote but here are four other versions and we're not entirely sure if he meant to keep it that way or intended to replace it with something else that he liked more but would have required everything else being rewritten and dear God it's all scribbled on mixed up bits of paper and scattered around the country."
    It's actually quite the same deal, because you can't say 'they are officially recognized by the original author' when they came out after he died. You can say he gave his go on it happening, but not in a way that implies he officially recognizes the finished product when it literally isn't possible since he's dead.

    The Wheel of Time books are canon because the fans have accepted it to be canon. It is absolutely possible for the fans to NOT recognize the last books as canon as well. The difference is most fans widely regard them to be canon, to the point where it's rarely debated. The books follow the same singular continuity that the original author intended. Whereas Silmarillion, as you explained, has plenty of inconsistencies and contradictions, which leaves it open to debate. If we're merely making a technical point of 'is it from the author's body of work', then neither the Brandon Sanderson or Christopher Tolkien books would be (technically) considered canon.

    And what you are debating is pretty much already covered by your own recognition that it could all be canonical, just not necessarily all true. Canon is really a loose definition. Even in Wikipedia, certain Tolkien scholars consider all published writings to be canon, while others merely consider the entire body of work of a singular author to be canon. The term is quite loose, even when it comes to the experts who would define them.

    As for whether Silmarillion is considered canon? Well, many do consider it canon. You argue that it is not. And everyone is right.

    What's canon comes from an authorative source though, that's its whole thing. If the controller of an IP authoritatively says "this is the canon" then that is the canon.
    But that's my point. 'Canon' isn't merely what the authoritative source regards as being official. It's grown beyond that description considering the entire premise of authoritative continuity has been widely debated. The term has shifted to include and recognize what a fanbase considers. And that includes experts and scholars on Tolkien's work having different concepts of what is and is not 'authoritative'. We get into this exact grey area because the Silmarillion is both written and not written by Tolkien. It is his works, and it is also not his works.

    And besides that, who would be the current authoritative source who would define this? Does the Tolkien estate consider it non-canon? Debateable at best, right?

    The word you're looking for is "liked." Many people say that Greedo shooting first isn't liked, but that doesn't make it non-canon.
    That's where we get into grey area.

    Lawrence Kasdan could be considered a post-Lucas authoritative source on Star Wars canon. He considers Han Shot First to be canon, and wrote scenes in Solo to corroborate that timeline of events. Is it canon or isn't it? It's still widely debated, because it isn't so simple to define a singular authoritative source. That's pretty much what we have here with Tolkien and the Silmarillion.

    The idea of 'ghost writers' continuing Middle Earth would be very little different to how Disney continues Star Wars without Lucas. Should we consider the sequel trilogy and Mandalorian series are non-canon because they are outside of Lucas' body of work? Much of the Lovecraft mythos was expanded in this very way, and the term 'canon' is really only as relevant as the individual wishes to regard the Mythos. The regard of Lovecraft Mythos canon is well beyond the author.

    In the case of Tolkien's work, the regard for LOTR and Hobbit to be definitively canonical while any other works is considered debateable is, as I will clearly point out, how the fans choose to regard the canon. The fans openly defer to the experts on the subject; the scholars who have decided to exclusively regard only Tolkien's body of work (which may include his post-humous published works), while openly excluding any fiction created within his universe by other creators. This how this particular fanbase chooses to regard Middle Earth canon. Very exclusively. This choice would be in high contrast to other properties, such as Star Wars, where fans have come to accept a much more flexible, collaborative process to its world building.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-01-25 at 10:52 PM.

  2. #8602
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    What is this new defense of this shit show? Simarillion isn't cannon? The lengths people go to defend this garbage show is fucking hilarious and sad.
    I think the show was just 'okay' personally I think the two extreme sides are once again blowing this out of proportion (sorry if you are on one of them). Its either the best thing ever or the worst thing ever and once again here's me in the middle just like 'its was okay, I guess'. Its Last Jedi all over again, which is fittingly comparable. That movie had some stuff I liked but also some stuff I disliked and to me was an average fine and okay movie. Not great just okay. I don;t think it was awful. Usually when two extremes come to blows on movies or shows like this I always balance the middle (except Captain Marvel I actually liked that movie, fite me lol)

    I tried to rewatch Rings of Power for a second time, and it was harder than the first time. The story is by far the weakest part, not all of it, but most of the characters are just dull. Including Galadriel who is so dislikeable and spiteful. But there are some nice things, I enjoy the set design, I enjoy the sweeping shots, and some actors are not all bad. I love Elrond and Durin and Disa that I wish the show was just about them lol.

    And I will die on a hill to defend the shows score, I have the soundtrack its amazing, I would say the soundtrack was way too good for the show lol.

    Despite it not being a good Tolkien inspired show, and maybe even the worst thing adapted from Tolkien (will need to rewatch that Rankin/Bass Hobbit movie to confirm), I still cannot in good conscience say the show is BAD. I gave it a 5/10 on imdb and I feel its a fitting rating.
    Last edited by Orby; 2023-01-25 at 10:30 PM.
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  3. #8603
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    A reason for the lighter tone of the Hobbit compared to LotR is the fact it was Bilbo's story he used to tell to the young Hobbits so the more brutal parts would be toned down.
    That may be the "cover story" but Tolkien wrote it that way because he didn't think fantasy told to adults would be successful. In the 60's he wanted to re-write The Hobbit to make it more of an "adult tale" but it was abandoned after at least 3 chapters.

    The two published books should certainly be treated as higher canon then his unpublished work. However even then he didn't see them as finished but something to change as he saw fit.
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  4. #8604
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I think the show was just 'okay' personally I think the two extreme sides are once again blowing this out of proportion (sorry if you are on one of them). Its either the best thing ever or the worst thing ever and once again here's me in the middle just like 'its was okay, I guess'. Its Last Jedi all over again, which is fittingly comparable. That movie had some stuff I liked but also some stuff I disliked and to me was an average fine and okay movie. Not great just okay. I don;t think it was awful. Usually when two extremes come to blows on movies or shows like this I always balance the middle (except Captain Marvel I actually liked that movie, fite me lol)

    I tried to rewatch Rings of Power for a second time, and it was harder than the first time. The story is by far the weakest part, not all of it, but most of the characters are just dull. Including Galadriel who is so dislikeable and spiteful. But there are some nice things, I enjoy the set design, I enjoy the sweeping shots, and some actors are not all bad. I love Elrond and Durin and Disa that I wish the show was just about them lol.

    And I will die on a hill to defend the shows score, I have the soundtrack its amazing, I would say the soundtrack was way too good for the show lol.
    lets just put it that if you take away the LoTR from it/rename places and characters it wasn't a good show for me. The dialogue is bad, the story is bad, the acting is mediocre, the costumes range from good to worst cosplay level (gods I hate the Numenorean armor). The music was great sure, and the visuals good (but nothing to blow me away considering the 600 million budget for this season), but the show had so many failings. Add in the fact that it had h a $600 million budget and it is not a good show, especially when you consider it was supposed to be an adaptation for a beloved authors work causing it to only get worse for me.
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  5. #8605
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    I can make slanted statements too - “you mean the book that the author’s son intended to be the closest to canon that he could?” Regardless - Tolkien never had elves dying due to lack of mithril juice, or Gil- Galad sending people to Valinor as a “reward.” You’re playing whataboutism - disingenuously.
    So are you. Do you really think there was an endless supply of boats heading to Valinor? Couldn't "go to the front of the line" be given as a boon? Out of all the things to get upset at with Rings of Power I'm always baffled when things like "they got a reward" as something that is impossible. The canon, both published and unpublished don't cover mundane things. It is logical that it could happen and never stated that it could never happen.
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  6. #8606
    Loving the “what does canon mean” discussion. I’ll give my definition, prts see if I can get that into webster, or ever more prestigious; the urban dictionary!

    Canon:
    Expression used by those overly fixated on a fictional work. Canon describes everything the person believes to be true about a fictional work, while discarding conflicting views as non-canon. While this term is used to gatekeep the opinion of “the fandom”, no evidence has been found that any person using the term had been elected speaker of the fandom, nor to have conducted any representative polling.

    That about sums it up, me thinks.

  7. #8607
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    lets just put it that if you take away the LoTR from it/rename places and characters it wasn't a good show for me. The dialogue is bad, the story is bad, the acting is mediocre, the costumes range from good to worst cosplay level (gods I hate the Numenorean armor). The music was great sure, and the visuals good (but nothing to blow me away considering the 600 million budget for this season), but the show had so many failings. Add in the fact that it had h a $600 million budget and it is not a good show, especially when you consider it was supposed to be an adaptation for a beloved authors work causing it to only get worse for me.
    If you are taking away the reason they paid so much money then of course it won't fit its budget when including the amount they paid for just the rights. It was $250 million for the rights and $450 million for s1 production. Also an adaptation of an author's work is a subjective thing. Remember son of the author didn't like the last adaptation even though many fans did.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    Expression used by those overly fixated on a fictional work. Canon describes everything the person believes to be true about a fictional work, while discarding conflicting views as non-canon. While this term is used to gatekeep the opinion of “the fandom”, no evidence has been found that any person using the term had been elected speaker of the fandom, nor to have conducted any representative polling.
    That is still just as silly of a definition as some of the others. Canon is simply the official facts of a story. It isn't something a fan decides but what the author, or the owners of the IP, decide. Just like when Disney bought Star Wars they started their own canon even for the EU that was "official but not movie level" of canon.
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  8. #8608
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    Loving the “what does canon mean” discussion. I’ll give my definition, prts see if I can get that into webster, or ever more prestigious; the urban dictionary!

    Canon:
    Expression used by those overly fixated on a fictional work. Canon describes everything the person believes to be true about a fictional work, while discarding conflicting views as non-canon. While this term is used to gatekeep the opinion of “the fandom”, no evidence has been found that any person using the term had been elected speaker of the fandom, nor to have conducted any representative polling.

    That about sums it up, me thinks.
    Its really not that deep of a discussion in the first place.

    The Tolkien Estate considers the books he wrote and that were published during his life as hard canon. And what they mean is that they want the reader to see them as completed works because that's ultimately what stories that Tolkien felt confident telling and releasing to the world.

    Not that his other stories aren't important, but they are ultimately incomplete and shouldn't detract from his previously published work.

  9. #8609
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    We see this exact thing happen to the Star Wars universe. The expanded universe was considered canon. Many different authors, many different creators, all lending their creativity to build on the same universe. Plenty of contradictions, plenty of retcons, etc. But it was all generally accepted by fans as being within the same continuity, and not merely branching out into different retellings or alternate universes. Canon isn't just 'the things that George Lucas wrote'.
    The EU being canon was highly in debate for the whole of its life time some fans said it was others said it wasn’t, Lucas said there were two canons one with the movies ones with the EU which fans then turned into 3 canons saying some of the EU is canon to Lucas’s first but other parts aren’t, then there was further splits of what was canon to Which parts of the EU like did star killer found the rebels or not is Kotor canon to clone wars because of a cut scene, and then the Disney canon and then making every thing legends and fans trying to say X and Y is canon based on Easter eggs.

    Starwars is like the ultimate example of why the fan base deciding what’s canon makes the term meaningless and why we should go off of what Lucas/Disney say is canon.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  10. #8610
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Starwars is like the ultimate example of why the fan base deciding what’s canon makes the term meaningless and why we should go off of what Lucas/Disney say is canon.
    Okay, sure.

    So what does the Tolkien estate say about Silmarillion?

  11. #8611
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Okay, sure.

    So what does the Tolkien estate say about Silmarillion?
    It's complicated.

  12. #8612
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Okay, sure.

    So what does the Tolkien estate say about Silmarillion?
    I couldn't care less about what the Tolkien estate says I wasn't questioning the actual canon I was questioning your definition of canon being decided by the fanbase.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #8613
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    lets just put it that if you take away the LoTR from it/rename places and characters it wasn't a good show for me. The dialogue is bad, the story is bad, the acting is mediocre, the costumes range from good to worst cosplay level (gods I hate the Numenorean armor). The music was great sure, and the visuals good (but nothing to blow me away considering the 600 million budget for this season), but the show had so many failings. Add in the fact that it had h a $600 million budget and it is not a good show, especially when you consider it was supposed to be an adaptation for a beloved authors work causing it to only get worse for me.
    You are not the one to decide if its a good show or not, your personal feelings have no impact on if a show is considered good or not, the simple facts prove the show is good, most ppl who watched the show liked it and that is proven if you look at all the data, you were never going to get an adaptation that tolkien purests would be happy with, the simple reality is the show has been proven that its good and more ppl like it than not.

    Its almost impossible to make a true adaptation from a book to a tv series, even tolkien knew it wasnt possible.
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  14. #8614
    Disney is a corporation that pretends to own "Star Wars". Virtually everyone who was involved in creating Star Wars is no longer involved in Star Wars. Just because a corporation owns a trademark called "Star Wars" does not make them Star Wars. The "sequel trilogy", the Mandalorian, Andor, whatever, is not Star Wars. It is a completely different movie. It's corporate fanfiction. The only thing it has in common is the name slapped on the box. It's pretension. You wouldn't buy tickets to a "Metallica" concert that starred people who weren't Metallica, would you? There are two original members of Metallica: Lars Ulrich and James Hetfield. They have always been in the band. If they are not present, then you do not have Metallica. Star Wars was made by George Lucas. If you do not have George Lucas, you do not have Star Wars, only a product by a corporation that happens to own the name "Star Wars". Tolkien has been dead for a long, long time. The Peter Jackson "Lord of the Rings" movies were fun action flicks, but they're not Lord of the Rings. Final Fantasy XI was the last FF game with the involvement of the OG creators of Sakaguchi, Uematsu, and Koichi Ishii. Everything after is other games with the FF brand name slapped on it, but is not truly Final Fantasy. Suikoden without Junko Kawano is not Suikoden. RWBY without Monty Oum is not RWBY. Berserk without Kentaro Miura is not Berserk.

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  15. #8615
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Okay, sure.

    So what does the Tolkien estate say about Silmarillion?
    I think its undeniable that its canon. It is however, incomplete. Tolkien is the ultimate and only source of canon in his literary universe. Or at least that's how his estate treats it.

    I think they want readers to interact with the Silmarillion as more of a reference of how Tolkien envisioned the world in the LotR and the Hobbit rather than a literal bible. But that said, no matter how fragmented it is, it was penned by him and you can't really dismiss its usefulness as a tool in trying to match the themes in his work.

  16. #8616
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I couldn't care less about what the Tolkien estate says I wasn't questioning the actual canon I was questioning your definition of canon being decided by the fanbase.
    But that's my point here.

    They aren't exactly defining it. If we're talking about Silmarillion's canonicity, then we're talking about what the fanbase is widely regarding it as. Not what the fanbase decides, what the fanbase is regarding. I am not talking about a collective decision, I want to be clear here. I'm talking about how the fanbase generally regards as being canonical. I think an argument can be made that Silmarillion is widely considered to be canon; not because it was a collective decision but because many people consider it to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It's complicated.
    Which is exactly what makes it debateable. It's complicated, not as simple as merely dismissing it based on slippery slope.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-01-25 at 11:50 PM.

  17. #8617
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Disney is a corporation that pretends to own "Star Wars".
    Talk about copium of the highest levels. The creator of Star Wars sold it to Disney. If they don't own it then neither did George Lucas because he intentionally passed the work to a successor. Just because it was sold to a corporation doesn't really change anything. Star Wars is a great example because people were hating on George Lucas for the prequel trilogoy so they didn't even care about authorship. Just as you don't really care about corporate skinsuits.

    You are merely looking for a way to dismiss something you don't like for any reason.
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  18. #8618
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Which is exactly what makes it debateable. It's complicated, not as simple as merely dismissing it based on slippery slope.
    Yes but it's debatable because the author and Estate say it's complicated. Deciding how canon a part of the Silmarillion is means figuring out what Tolkien intended for each piece and how it fits together. Even Christopher Tolkien was unsure about whether the works he compiled could be conisdered "canon" and spent a great deal of his life bringing together the rest of his father's work to give greater insights into it. However if he had simply pulled it together and said "this is canon" then it would be canon unless, maybe, you could find a note from JRR saying "this isn't canon."

    The main point though is canonicity derives from an authority who can ring fence stuff and say "this is canon." Tolkien's stuff is debatable for a lot of reasons, but in cases like Star Wars and Wheel of Time people have definitively said what's canon and what isn't, and how random internet people feel about it can't change that.

  19. #8619
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    All this talk about canon is to somehow validate the garbage changes in the show, as one can use as excuse to make such nonsense like magic mithrill.

  20. #8620
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    All this talk about canon is to somehow validate the garbage changes in the show, as one can use as excuse to make such nonsense like magic mithrill.
    No one's talking about Rings of Power being canon. Let's keep it that way.

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