1. #8761
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The Boys is number 11 when RoP was 15.
    True. I stand corrected.

    Nielsen Top Streaming Originals in 2022


    However, The Boys achieved that with 24 episodes, while RoP had just 8. Dunno how important is that for the industry, but to my simple mind, The Boys managed only 1,2 million extra minutes viewed with triple the episodes, making it less successful (in my honest and definitely not professional opinion) than RoP. If @Fencers can chip in in my amateur interpretation of the table data, i would appreciate it.

    Again, for anyone who wishes to reply here.

    I am not defending the show. I hated it. And i consider it a failed TV show, because, despite the well known and historic IP, the money thrown to get the rights and spent on the production, it had a bad and amateurish story and scenario, mediocre and bad acting (in general) and the deviations from the basic Middle History facts, as given by Tolkien, were nonsensical.

    Thing is, i do understand there's a discrepancy between what the TV/Movie industry regards as "success", compared to what audiences believes it is. Most of the times, a TV product has enough quality, so the corporate tv metrics and the audience perception/acceptance coincide (see Wednesday on the above table: Same episodes, almost double minutes viewed, compared to RoP).

    In case of RoP, those do not. The general feeling is that the show flopped hard. The objective industry metrics, though, are enough to consider it as a "success".

    This is not a point of discussion. Whenever Amazon claims S1 of RoP was successful, they have a proof. We cannot dispute that, with any argument. We can only compare it with other shows on the above table. Not that this will stop Amazon considering it a success. We can only ascertain our opinion of the show with such comparisons.

    Even the hatewatching, the dismissive articles, the critic reviews with low scores, all are considered "engagement" which added to the corporate interpretation of the show's "success". Even our desire of an informed opinion on the show and any subsequent publication of this opinion or consumption of other opinionated content, that is being measured by objective industry standards has helped RoP to achieve industry "success".

    We are partly responsible for this success, along with anyone else who hated it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    I would be incredibly surprised if that ever happened. Music videos are around that length, and even then the ones that try to be "cinematic" end up being longer than the run-time of the song itself.
    That will happen probably after many years, when the next generations are accustomed to such short, instant gratification content. Kids these days consume short Tik-Tok videos like candies.

    If this keeps up, in X (dunno how many are x) years, this will probably happen.
    /spit@Blizzard

  2. #8762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    I seriously don't know how those people can fail upwards, they fail and get another or even a better job to do, is nuts.
    They can fail upwards because ESG and DEI policies give them ample opportunities to do so. Unfortunately the investors and shareholders for a lot of these companies that have been struggling with their shows and films recently have started to come knocking asking why they aren't getting enough of a return. I'd love to know how much money Prime Studios sinks into their exclusive productions and what their viewership numbers are like in contrast to those show budgets, because if I had to guess, it's been a losing venture for them.

  3. #8763
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    I think you are combining my post with other posts here
    Maybe! I don't know who is who honestly. Every single person on this forum, Reddit, or Twitter, et cetera is essentially a robot to me. I apologize if I mistook your commentary for another person.

    My total argument is that them cracking the top 15 is less impressive because of how many subscribers basically get the series for free.
    As I said, that is personal to you. You are not personally impressed. As a property, it is impressive Amazon got the Boys and Rings of Power charted where others couldn't get anything at all. Even with major properties such as Star Wars or Marvel.

    The industry considers it impressive. Nobody cares how Amazon did it. They just care the minutes are there.

    I didn't make up any metrics or a hypothetical scenario. You're confusing me with someone else.
    Again, I apologize for the mistake on my part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Thats a dumb take, because those objectively good things require, time, talent and effort, if you don't have those you can't do good things, even if you want to.

    You know you have to hire good actors, but you don't, because any reasons, this will drag your work down, this is the same for the script, the direction and all, otherwise all movies would be good and therw would not be bad movies..
    Do you know how actors are hired for roles? How production is contracted?

    If there was a way to make objectively good anything in the entertainment business, they would do it 100% of the time. Focus testing wouldn't exist. CinemaScore would be out of business.

    No such thing exists my dude.

    You want to compare a movie from 20 years ago to shit that happens recently?
    I was comparing the properties. As a property, Lord of the Rings is not as valuable as the other brands mentioned. Even if it were, equally as popular, it is still remarkable they charted where others did not.

    Numbers of what?
    The unadjusted domestic box office is the only industry standard for film success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    I would be incredibly surprised if that ever happened. Music videos are around that length, and even then the ones that try to be "cinematic" end up being longer than the run-time of the song itself.
    It will eventually. We might see hour-long shows broken into 2-3 minute videos that can be posted or inserted on various platforms as an intermediary. At some point, that practice will just be producing 30 mins of content edited into 1-minute chapters.

    The algorithms and metrics indicate this is a more palatable method of content delivery to an increasing number of people.

    What content owners want to do is have these videos everywhere.

    Once, years ago when I was still new, I got into heat with my boss and someone at Fox (before the buyout) because I didn't account for the views on an embedded video on the Yahoo News front page in a dossier portfolio for Fox. Which was like an extra half a million views for a trailer Fox wanted the engagement numbers reported. The video was 20 seconds of a full trailer that was only about 2-3 minutes.

    It was pretty embarrassing for me but also enlightening as to what they care about at the end of the day. They are asking for it and will get it at some point.

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    However, The Boys achieved that with 24 episodes, while RoP had just 8. Dunno how important is that for the industry, but to my simple mind, The Boys managed only 1,2 million extra minutes viewed with triple the episodes, making it less successful (in my honest and definitely not professional opinion) than RoP. If @Fencers can chip in in my amateur interpretation of the table data, i would appreciate it.
    They only care about minutes and/or the engagement points for a property.

    If a video plays in the background of a webpage for 100,000 people loading that page, and plays for 3 seconds Amazon would say "Huzzah! 4.3k minutes of content delivery!"

    If even half those people click on the video; someone is going to get a new turtle shell tabletop or gold toilet at the end of the year. Amazon has 20 second clips from the Boys that do like 500k+ clicks and views. The only ROP clip I saw was like 80k views in one day. Amazon very likely released more than one clip for RoP over the course of the series. It all adds up.

    As I said before if all the minutes came in the first episodes of RoP they would not care. It's just minutes.

    It works the opposite way too. One of the reasons Stranger Things, Friends, The Office, Kardashians, Shahs of Sunset, The Bachelor, Masked Singer, and so on are such massive shows is that there are a million episodes.

    Before streaming, TV shows worked like this too. Series used to have their cast party at 100 or 120 episodes (depending) because that was the minimum needed to reach syndication eligibility. Everything after was just gravy and talent increases.

    Quality is not a factor at all. Well, unless you're a premium brand. That is to say, a brand is about delivering premium content as part of the business model; HBO, for example.

  4. #8764
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I'd say its already a thing, tbh. TikTok, YouTube Shorts, even Netflix has a "Quick Laughs" tab in the app with short clips from their shows now. Twitter is also sort of a hotbed of shorter clips from longer content. We could even go back to Vine 7/8 years ago. Anything that is quick, and easy for people to share with friends for consumption, younger folks are all over it.
    I know it's a thing already. It just hasn't been the mainstream media format yet. But the younger audience is being trained for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    This is nonsense. You're saying that the subscription model is irrelevant when discussing engagement. Again - if this were true, then every single company would just put out content for free.
    I am not saying anything. You are.

    Stop making a fool of yourself.
    /spit@Blizzard

  5. #8765
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    Which is fascinatingly myopic - the whole question is whether Amazon can eventually turn Prime into a profit center. It's certainly losing money right now in order to build up business. A big spend on LOTR that you give away for free was always guaranteed to bring in a bunch of eyeballs, so on that level, them producing decent but not great numbers is a "meh" result.

    When you say "nobody cares how amazon did it" - I guarantee you that the people on the financial side do, because they're all pointing out that Amazon did it by losing money. It's much easier to get high engagement numbers if you are willing to lose money. The game is basically rigged in Amazon's favor as long as they are committed to losing money on streaming.
    See, that's what i mean. Maybe they are meant to lose money. Maybe because tax, or re-investing profits of Prime membership to something else to keep the ball rolling or because of a long term investing scheme to become a tv industry standard. I dunno. I am making things up, just to show that YOU ARE TOO.

    They only know. So, stop pretending your simple logic understands all better than them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    Ah - out of arguments so you're reduced to the ad hominems, I see.
    I am not the one who said "that the subscription model is irrelevant when discussing engagement." You did.

    And you're making a fool of yourself, because you think you know better. Where as, i don't. I accept that the industry views things in a different way than the audience.

    But keep on thinking you know better. You're just a poster here denying what is TRUTH for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    They only care about minutes and/or the engagement points for a property.

    If a video plays in the background of a webpage for 100,000 people loading that page, and plays for 3 seconds Amazon would say "Huzzah! 4.3k minutes of content delivery!"

    If even half those people click on the video; someone is going to get a new turtle shell tabletop or gold toilet at the end of the year. Amazon has 20 second clips from the Boys that do like 500k+ clicks and views. The only ROP clip I saw was like 80k views in one day. Amazon very likely released more than one clip for RoP over the course of the series. It all adds up.

    As I said before if all the minutes came in the first episodes of RoP they would not care. It's just minutes.

    It works the opposite way too. One of the reasons Stranger Things, Friends, The Office, Kardashians, Shahs of Sunset, The Bachelor, Masked Singer, and so on are such massive shows is that there are a million episodes.

    Before streaming, TV shows worked like this too. Series used to have their cast party at 100 or 120 episodes (depending) because that was the minimum needed to reach syndication eligibility. Everything after was just gravy and talent increases.

    Quality is not a factor at all. Well, unless you're a premium brand. That is to say, a brand is about delivering premium content as part of the business model; HBO, for example.
    Thanks for clearing this up for me. I appreciate your feedback here.
    /spit@Blizzard

  6. #8766
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    So because they said it, it must be true? Like, say, this? Your argument is hilarious.

    It's the last post, because you're definitely a bad faith poster, full of strawmans, goalpost moving and distorting other people's words, who can't accept they may lose an argument in the internet.

    It's THEIR truth. THEY ACCEPT IT. It doesn't matter to them what I, you or anybody else says, claims, argues, believes. They measure success by minutes viewed.

    The end.
    /spit@Blizzard

  7. #8767
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I think the reality check is that Amazon is considering changing the showrunners...assuming they haven't already, or at least dilute their idiocy. The show just isn't the big hit Bezos wants...his "Game of Thrones" isn't even close to its successor "House of the Dragon."
    You do know that house of dragon isn’t on the top 15 list right? How could RoP not be close to it when it apperntly did better then it according to Nielsen.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  8. #8768
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    It will eventually. We might see hour-long shows broken into 2-3 minute videos that can be posted or inserted on various platforms as an intermediary. At some point, that practice will just be producing 30 mins of content edited into 1-minute chapters.

    The algorithms and metrics indicate this is a more palatable method of content delivery to an increasing number of people.
    I'll believe it when I see it. What robots say people will click on (or simply not bother to turn off when it autoplays) when browsing video sites, and what people actually want out of their scripted high-production-value content don't strike me as even remotely the same thing...

    Let's not forget how spectacularly Quibi failed during a time when streaming services were raking in the money hand over fist.

  9. #8769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    You do know that house of dragon isn’t on the top 15 list right? How could RoP not be close to it when it apperntly did better then it according to Nielsen.
    I thought that HoD was a far better series than RoP.

    But, for the industry, RoP is more successful than HoD.

    As a viewer, i disagree. Because i measure success by other standards. Story, scenario, acting, production etc. But the industry just counts beans. I mean minutes viewed.
    /spit@Blizzard

  10. #8770
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    That's a list of streaming shows. Much of HOTD's audience views it on TV. And again, see my comment above - Amazon basically gave RoP away to 200 million people.
    Looking around no where list HoTD higher with Tv minuets included or not, Mabye you or @Fencers can find other wise though.

    And then “giving it away” is meaningless Amazon has a ton of other shows some that even had bigger premiers like reacher and they didn’t make it on the top 15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    I thought that HoD was a far better series than RoP.

    But, for the industry, RoP is more successful than HoD.

    As a viewer, i disagree. Because i measure success by other standards. Story, scenario, acting, production etc. But the industry just counts beans. I mean minutes viewed.
    Ya id say I agree competently I’d ranked HoT as Probably a good show instead of just ok but the people who church numbers would put it lower.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  11. #8771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Do you know how actors are hired for roles? How production is contracted?

    If there was a way to make objectively good anything in the entertainment business, they would do it 100% of the time. Focus testing wouldn't exist. CinemaScore would be out of business.

    No such thing exists my dude.
    You are just trying to pass up as pseudo inteligent if you think there is no objectively good or bad media in entertainment, you can't possible say there aren't, objectivelly good or bad actors, good or bad scripts/stories, bad/good directors and how all of then can affect a movie quality.

    Yes, there is ways to make objectively good things, its not rocket science, its why cliches and troops work in most cases.

    Is like saying there is no way of making good food, and if there was, people would make 100% good food all the time, when its not how it works, ingredients can be spoiled, something can go wrong in the kitchen, the chief can pass the point, the chief isn't as much talented, many variables.
    I was comparing the properties. As a property, Lord of the Rings is not as valuable as the other brands mentioned.
    How they are not valuable when they paid a billion for SOME of the rights?

    do you know a lot of other companies were trying to snatch Lotr too right? they all crazy about it because they know how valuable it is and how much potential hold it. Netflix wanted to make a MCU-like, others wanted to do remakes, and others wanted to do aragorn stories.

    The unadjusted domestic box office is the only industry standard for film success.
    Thats ridiculous, you are going to tell me, you are not going to count worldwide, and only count US to see if the movie is a success? do you seriously think ignoring the rest of the world is a way to say if something is a success?

    Not even that, ignoring, inflation, how the price of tickets increase recent years is not a fair noir just comparison

    And even with that, a quick search showed me the return of the king, alone, by example, did better than Iron man one and two and thor love and thunder domestically

  12. #8772
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    That's a list of streaming shows. Much of HOTD's audience views it on TV. And again, see my comment above - Amazon basically gave RoP away to 200 million people.
    So? Netflix had 223 million subscribers in the third quarter of 2022. Yet not all of their shows had 223 million viewers. No service has all of their subscribers engage in a show.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  13. #8773
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    LOTR is not as valuable as Star Wars and Marvel but that doesn’t mean it’s worse.
    I didn't claim lotr was more valauble, i said they were as valuable, those two can have new shit, because authors are alive, and they can create enw stuff foward, you can't do that with tolkien.
    There are reasons to believe RoP was a success - it put up good numbers and critics liked it - and there are reasons to view it as a failure - how many fans despised it and it was very expensive. With one season in the books it’s too soon to call it either way, particularly in the context of Amazon’s huge investment.
    What bothers me, is how "minutes watched" and making to top 15 of just original shows is a shit metric and should not be used as an signal of "success", its arbitrary, boderline manipulating information

    is like if i said they were top 5 in the medieval fantasy shows, taking second place behind lost kingdom, waaaaow, they took 2nd place!!! huge sucess!!! < this is what looks like.

    Personally I think that barring a huge improvement season 2 is going to be where the cracks in the facade really start to widen. The show pissed off core fans and was largely generic otherwise - I’m skeptical that casual fans will even remember much of the plot in 18 months when it comes out. And the LOTR novelty will wear out so you won’t have those first timers that buoyed this season.
    18? people didn't gave two shits about it after 2 months, thei strategy is put the show in 2024 so people can indeed forget how bad it was, let the dust set, then they can grab people who forgot about season 1.

    We already saw the HUGE drop from episode 1 to the rest of the season, "huge success" of a show that los that many viewers, if they made season 2 in 2023 people would just say fuck off.

  14. #8774
    It's all arbitrary too.

    It's like if we list the top MOBAs of 2023, Heroes of the Storm would still be on that list. Doesn't really mean jack shit.

  15. #8775
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's all arbitrary too.

    It's like if we list the top MOBAs of 2023, Heroes of the Storm would still be on that list. Doesn't really mean jack shit.
    There are like 5-6 moba's on the market, there are likely 100's of original shows that ran in 2022, these two things aren't in the same solar system.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #8776
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    There are like 5-6 moba's on the market, there are likely 100's of original shows that ran in 2022, these two things aren't in the same solar system.
    The metrics are still both arbitrary. That is the point.

  17. #8777
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The metrics are still both arbitrary. That is the point.
    they have been using the same metric for year's you or I might not get why they choose that one but it's surely not arbitrary that's just not how data gathering industry's work.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-05 at 10:44 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  18. #8778
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    What bothers me, is how "minutes watched" and making to top 15 of just original shows is a shit metric and should not be used as an signal of "success", its arbitrary, boderline manipulating information
    How is it manipulation to track self-produced shows by streaming companies? They track Original, Acquired, and Overall. It all provides valuable information and none of it is close to being manipulated. Stop trying to make everything bad just because you don't like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    18? people didn't gave two shits about it after 2 months, thei strategy is put the show in 2024 so people can indeed forget how bad it was, let the dust set, then they can grab people who forgot about season 1. We already saw the HUGE drop from episode 1 to the rest of the season, "huge success" of a show that los that many viewers, if they made season 2 in 2023 people would just say fuck off.
    House of the Dragon is taking just as long of a break. It has nothing to do with letting people forget something terrible and just the amount of work that goes into these productions. The finale episode was only 95 minutes different then the first two for Rings of Power. The "huge" drop recovered. Why do you keep ignoring facts in order to continue to hate?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #8779
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Looking around no where list HoTD higher with Tv minuets included or not, Mabye you or @Fencers can find other wise though.

    And then “giving it away” is meaningless Amazon has a ton of other shows some that even had bigger premiers like reacher and they didn’t make it on the top 15.
    Nielsen did not start tracking HBO and HBO Max until recently. Technically, consumer data can only count app data for HBO Max.

    HBO (premium cable) has to legally and technically be counted separately.

    Many WBD shows are huge, but their numbers do not reflect it because they have to count OTA and Streaming separately. Euphoria would be the biggest show of them all if it was not for the spilt.

    HBO and HBO Max are basically different platforms.

    Regional licensing, FCC regulations and a lot of contracts account for the state of HBO. Before the sale to Discovery, AT&T had documentation in how their OTA rights were tied up.

    RoP, Stranger Things, Handmaiden's Tale, etc; they have the advantage of being non-ancillary programming.

    It's a big deal Amazon owns the Rings of Power and The Boys as properties. Where as HBO Max, for example, doesn't and can't wholly leverage their properties.

    This is why HBO Max clears production for shows such as Velma, Harley Quinn, Julia, Selena + Chef and cancels things like Doom Patrol and Titans.

    Selena + Chef would be more valuable as an HBO Max show that airs in HBO than the other way around. For example.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2023-02-05 at 11:24 PM.

  20. #8780
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Nielsen did not start tracking HBO and HBO Max until recently. Technically, consumer data can only count app data for HBO Max.

    HBO (premium cable) has to legally and technically be counted separately.

    Many WBD shows are huge, but their numbers do not reflect it because they have to count OTA and Streaming separately. Euphoria would be the biggest show of them all if it was not for the spilt.

    HBO and HBO Max are basically different platforms.

    Regional licensing, FCC regulations and a lot of contracts account for the state of HBO. Before the sale to Discovery, AT&T had documentation in how their OTA rights were tied up.

    RoP, Stranger Things, Handmaiden's Tale, etc; they have the advantage of being non-ancillary programming.

    It's a big deal Amazon owns the Rings of Power and The Boys as properties. Where as HBO Max, for example, doesn't and can't wholly leverage their properties.

    This is why HBO Max clears production for shows such as Velma, Harley Quinn, Julia, Selena + Chef and cancels things like Doom Patrol and Titans.

    Selena + Chef would be more valuable as an HBO Max show that airs in HBO than the other way around. For example.
    Ah so we really wouldn't know how the two compare, thanks for the insight.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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