Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Bladesyphon]

I don't think Kevin Feige or the creative leads at Disney would ever do this for Black Panther, but let's not dance around the fact that we have a current Black Captain America that is canon to the MCU right now. What is the difference, really?

...That there was a black Captain America in the comics before? Granted it wasn't Sam, but the idea of there being a black Captain America is not a new original idea that was created by the MCU.

Again, this is what we're all getting at - You wouldn't expect, nor want, a white man to don the cowl of the Black Panther because of how horribly abominable that would be to pretty much everything about the Black Panther and his backstory. In the same vein, then, why should it not be okay for us to be upset about them casting a black man with a modern haircut to play a Tolkien elf, and the first female dwarf we've seen on screen not to sport a beard, to say nothing about what they're doing to Elrond and Galadriel.

That's the problem we have with this - they're not respecting the lore, and they're ticking boxes just to make themselves look forward thinking. If they wanted to tell a story about a racial diverse sect of Middle Earth, then they had the entireity of the Esterlings, a criminally underused portion of Tolkien's lore, to work with, and I would have been all for it.

But what Amazon's doing with The Lord of the Rings IP is just as disrespectful to the source material, and Tolkien's work, as what they did with the Wheel of Time.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Galadriel never fought in wars, she was never a 'warrior princess', Elrond was never a 'politician' or 'manipulating thinker', ignoring the whole 'racism' debate, all dwarves are born with beards, how is it that all of a sudden we have one in a position of power without one, all elves had long flowing hair, not a buzzcut fade.

they have made the timeline of events much closer together than the lore depicted them being, meaning that certain characters will meet when in the source material, the first character died centuries before the second character making it impossible for them to ever meet, the whole 'harfoot' thing, this race of beings didn't exist in the second age of middle earth, and certainly not during the Annatar lord of gifts period of time, so having them simply exist is self inserted fantasy.

i could go on but hopefully this paints enough of a picture for you.

So the timeline thing seems like the only big issue, Elrond acting in a political sense for some time the saying screw as it doesn't fit him seems like it could fit, manipulation less so.

[Nurasu]

So then what you're saying is you're perfectly okay with the idea of a white man living in Wakanda becoming the next Black Panther?



There is no way you're honestly so naive that you legitimately believe that if Marvel were to make the next Black Panther a white man, there wouldn't be the backlash to end all backlashes from it. Hell, even as a white guy myself, *I* would be offended and disgusted by them recasting the Black Panther as some white guy who just so happens to live in Wakanda without any explanation what so ever.

I still don't see the missing link here between new side characters and the main character of a well known franchise. Elves are much more defined by their longevity, magic, and fairy-like society than their whiteness, in my opinion.

[Triceron]

...That there was a black Captain America in the comics before? Granted it wasn't Sam, but the idea of there being a black Captain America is not a new original idea that was created by the MCU.

And there was a half-white Jewish Black Panther too.

Also there is White Wolf in the comics, T'challa's adopted white male brother. White Wolf has not adopted the Black Panther title to my knowledge, but to be honest he doesn't really have to. Yet if he was introduced into the MCU officially as his own character? If he ended up taking the mantle of Black Panther? Nothing's really stopping that from happening. Of course, it's doubtful he would even make an appearance, since Bucky was homaged through being given the 'White Wolf' moniker.




Again, mountain out of a molehill.

[Nurasu]

and yet you, a 'grown ass adult' fails to see that this is the EXACT comparison being made here, how is casting a white guy as head of an all black African tribe any different that casting a black woman as leader of a white clan of dwarves who have never had any black characters ever?, what's the fundamental difference here aside from both being absurd?

Where did you get the white clan of Dwarves from?

[uuuhname]

and yet you, a 'grown ass adult' fails to see that this is the EXACT comparison being made here, how is casting a white guy as head of an all black African tribe any different that casting a black woman as leader of a white clan of dwarves who have never had any black characters ever?, what's the fundamental difference here aside from both being absurd?

because it's obvious you're only changing his race as a retaliation. to a new character, who has never existed in the middle earth cannon, who happens to be dark skinned. your intentions here are the biggest give away. you think representation in media is a zero sum game, it isn't.

[Xath]

I'm trying to get to the bottom of how much of a sacrifice it really is for people though. The heavy CGI is a much bigger issue to me than the color of brand new characters I know nothing about yet.

The problem is the instant you start seeing the pushing of tokenization it will be used as a shield when the product sucks see all criticism of wheel of time being called racist when those characters were described and Jordan had a cast list of what he was seeing in his head.

[rogoth]

Sorry read again, I'm saying you clearly don't care about the source material as you're inserting your own ideas wildly at odds with Tolkien's to try to justify your stance.



I've no hurt feelings, in case you didn't notice you're the one upset about having NO SAY whatsoever in how the adaptation goes. When Tolkien and his successors commoditised LotR they opened it up to reinterpretations by people who gained the license. In this case the people with the license decided the aesthetics of homogenous races based on the author's experience a century ago weren't necessary for the story they wanted to tell. When Peter Jackson made the Hobbit movies they decided it needed massively padding with CGI buffoonery, a pointless romance and an unneeded prime antagonist.

i read what you said again, and i stand by what i said because it's what makes sense, as far as me having no say in how the adaptation goes, you are correct, neither do you or anyone here, that doesn't mean we can't call out stupidity on behalf of those who DO DECIDE how it is adapted, also, before i go any further, you seem to use the word 'adaptation' and 'interpretation' to mean the same thing with reckless abandon, they are not the same, and are wildly different, in every piece of promotional media surrounding this project it has always been termed an 'adaptation' meaning that regardless of what story these woke agenda showrunners want to peddle, they shouldn't and by definition of the word, can't, and yet here you are offering them license to do so because you keep using the wrong term to describe things, using your own words, everything i have said in this forum thread is my 'interpretation' of the source material and as such is by extension no different that what these show runners are doing, therefore using your own logical process i cannot in fact be wrong in any way, so thank you for your support of my arguements, it's appreciated.

[Bladesyphon]

And there was a half-white Jewish Black Panther too.

Also there is White Wolf in the comics, T'challa's adopted white male brother. White Wolf has not adopted the Black Panther title to my knowledge, but to be honest he doesn't really have to. Yet if he was introduced into the MCU officially as his own character? If he ended up taking the mantle of Black Panther? Nothing's really stopping that from happening. Of course, it's doubtful he would even make an appearance, since Bucky was homaged through being given the 'White Wolf' moniker.




Again, mountain out of a molehill.

So... you are legitimately that naive, or just trolling, got it.

[Triceron]

The problem is the instant you start seeing the pushing of tokenization it will be used as a shield when the product sucks see all criticism of wheel of time being called racist when those characters were described and Jordan had a cast list of what he was seeing in his head.

The problems with Wheel of Time far surpassed the race issue. It didn't fail just because of tokenization, nor did tokenization play a big part in that failure.

For the most part, the performances by the actors were fine. It was the clunky writing that sealed its fate more than anything.

[rogoth]

Where did you get the white clan of Dwarves from?

based on all material currently available all dwarves shown with the exception of the 'great leader' are of white descent, i could be wrong in long term but based on all relevant data at present that's the only conclusion to be made right now.

[Nurasu]

based on all material currently available all dwarves shown with the exception of the 'great leader' are of white descent, i could be wrong in long term but based on all relevant data at present that's the only conclusion to be made right now.

So you pulled it out of your ass; I already knew that though.

[Triceron]

So... you are legitimately that naive, or just trolling, got it.

Wait, how is this trolling?

You literally were the one who came up with an example of a white man, living in Wakanda, who is somehow miraculously associated with Black Panther's character as a runner up to his title. And I literally point out that such a character exists in the comics already, which you probably weren't even aware of.

How is that trolling?

-edit- I see you updated a previous post, gonna address that here

Again, this is what we're all getting at - You wouldn't expect, nor want, a white man to don the cowl of the Black Panther because of how horribly abominable that would be to pretty much everything about the Black Panther and his backstory. In the same vein, then, why should it not be okay for us to be upset about them casting a black man with a modern haircut to play a Tolkien elf, and the first female dwarf we've seen on screen not to sport a beard, to say nothing about what they're doing to Elrond and Galadriel.

It all exists within its own canon. It all exists within 'Rings of Power'. That's all that needs to be said.

No different than Shelob being a human woman in Shadows of Mordor 2. No different than Kili-Tauriel romance in the Hobbit. It's all non-canonical, and only relevant to its own self-contained medium. Take it or leave it.

And I'm being absolutely honest here when I say fans don't have to enjoy everything that comes out that is based on the thing they like. I'm a huge Marvel fan, I don't have to love everything Marvel or hold it to the 'source material'. I'm a huge Star Wars fan, I don't have to love the Sequel trilogy, High Republic or Book of Boba Fett. They can be made for the fans who like that particular story and setting. Not liking that particular adaptation doesn't make it any less 'Marvel' or 'Star Wars'. And simply not sticking to the source material doesn't automatically mean it's inauthentic either, considering we're talking about material that exists beyond canon.


Also, the dwarf lady does have facial hair, albeit hard to see. It seems she sports some mutton chops.

[rogoth]

because it's obvious you're only changing his race as a retaliation. to a new character, who has never existed in the middle earth cannon, who happens to be dark skinned. your intentions here are the biggest give away. you think representation in media is a zero sum game, it isn't.

you're missing the point so badly it's painful, nothing is a 'retaliation' of any kind, it's asking you the question 'what if' and then presenting a scenario, and then asking you to guess at what the general response would be, you are failing miserably to differentiate between things.

- - - Updated - - -

So you pulled it out of your ass; I already knew that though.

no, i watched the teaser, and looked at the articles provided and concluded based on the characters shown that the majority of the clan the 'great leader' is attached to are in fact white ethnically, how's that so hard to understand?

[uuuhname]

you're missing the point so badly it's painful, nothing is a 'retaliation' of any kind, it's asking you the question 'what if' and then presenting a scenario, and then asking you to guess at what the general response would be, you are failing miserably to differentiate between things.

the only thing I'm failing to see here is why dark skin people appearing in LoTR is in anyway a big deal. and again the comparison is stupid and doesn't even hold up (note what other poster's have said).

oh wow you mean there was a white guy who could take up the mantle of black panther? in the marvel comics?

yeah none of you actually seemed to be aware of that (I wasn't). so your own example is shit, it's fucking shit, find a new one.

not that you'll ever find a good one because ONCE AGAIN you seem to think representation in media is a zero sum game. for some reason.

[bledgor]

The problems with Wheel of Time far surpassed the race issue. It didn't fail just because of tokenization, nor did tokenization play a big part in that failure.

For the most part, the performances by the actors were fine. It was the clunky writing that sealed its fate more than anything.

Clunky is being SUPER generous, the giant deviations in plot alone fucked it, they are leaving canyons for them to fill later.

[uuuhname]

"I'm so upset over this dark skin person being in my favorite property, let's switch out this well established character in this other franchise who is purposefully black, and make them white, to upset the wokes!"

"I'm not self reporting, at all!"

[rogoth]

the only thing I'm failing to see here is why dark skin people appearing in LoTR is in anyway a big deal. and again the comparison is stupid and doesn't even hold up (note what other poster's have said).


yeah none of you actually seemed to be aware of that (I wasn't). so your own example is shit, it's fucking shit, find a new one.

not that you'll ever find a good one because ONCE AGAIN you seem to think representation in media is a zero sum game. for some reason.

once again, failing to see the point, lemme spell it out for you:

IT'S NOT A PROBLEM OR A BIG DEAL

what is a problem is shoehorning it in where it doesn't belong based on the lore of the works created, and then calling people racist when they call you out on such an obvious ticking of boxes to make sure the quotas are being met, and as has been described in detail in this thread countless times now, this is just ONE facet of this fucked up character, they have managed to hit a trifecta of dumb shit with this one character alone.

[AeneasBK]

Find it hilarious that some people are more upset over the skin colour of some characters than they are over chunks of plot being removed or central characters sidelined into bad comic relief; and then pontificate over it like any of their points at this stage aren't just absurd.

[Xath]

The problems with Wheel of Time far surpassed the race issue. It didn't fail just because of tokenization, nor did tokenization play a big part in that failure.

For the most part, the performances by the actors were fine. It was the clunky writing that sealed its fate more than anything.

It wasn't about tokenization it was about a complete lack of respect for the source material which was displayed from the word go via casting. That's why casting is seen as a blinking red neon sign that they might not give a shit about the source material if they can't even bother to get that right. Wheel of time is insanely diverse but it isn't in the first small village race wise so that wasn't good enough. Having a matriarchal power being incredibly strong wasn't good enough either men had to be made largely incompetent while somehow still being arrogant. A big part of the reason wheel was awesome was basically stomped on which was that it showed everyone could suck or rock regardless of race gender or sexuality. Rafe of time also stomped all over the concept of gendered souls and being tied to the wheel. It would be great in this world if you were always born to a body matching your soul know quite a few people who wish that was true.