1. #8881
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Amazon has their own internal metric.

    https://www.parrotanalytics.com/insi...n-prime-video/
    Is Amazon the industry?
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  2. #8882
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Is Amazon the industry?
    It's the one we are talking about if we're talking about Rings of Power.

  3. #8883
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's the one we are talking about if we're talking about Rings of Power.
    No, it isn’t.

    That goal post is firmly set and isn’t going any where.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #8884
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    No, it isn’t.

    That goal post is firmly set and isn’t going any where.
    I was very clear with my first answer to you that there is no singular metric that is being used by the industry at large.

    When I do mention things like Google Trends analytics, or Amazon's internal methods, you say it's not 'the industry'. Then what exactly are you asking for?

    It seems to me the goal post is irrelevant considering Amazon isn't even on the same playing field. You're talking about the rules of scoring in basketball when Amazon is playing football. What you're asking for is 'What is the metric for scoring in sports', and there's no singular answer to that. Different sports score in different ways, not every one of them relies on the same metrics to define their own success.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-02-09 at 06:25 PM.

  5. #8885
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So question to you, what is the streaming platform of the industry?
    *shrug* not a clue, would likely depend on market value and power to pick up in demand media.

    I’d expect some one who works in the industry would know these things and would be able to list some near competitors even if you can’t about your own industry.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #8886
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    *shrug* not a clue, would likely depend on market value and power to pick up in demand media.

    I’d expect some one who works in the industry would know these things and would be able to list some near competitors even if you can’t about your own industry.
    Because 'competititors' is not how it works.

    We're talking about analytics, of which Nielsen ratings are merely one type of measurement. And they are a company of many different names themselves, who provide a wealth of different analytics data for more than just TV and streaming. It's little different than if I mentioned Google Trends, which is another set of analytics.

    You are somehow thinking that metrics are tied to specific companies, rather than as systems of analytics.

    Google Trends is something I already mentioned. Amazon's own internal system is another. You don't seem to understand what you're actually asking for, and don't recognize it when you have the answer in front of you.


    I hope you understand my confusion here when you're asking for things that I've mentioned and answered many times already. Your questions aren't very clear when you think I'm moving goalposts, when I'm really intending to clarify answers that were already given.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-02-09 at 06:34 PM.

  7. #8887
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because 'competititors' is not how it works.

    We're talking about analytics, of which Nielsen ratings are merely one type of measurement. And they are a company of many different names themselves, who provide a wealth of different analytics data for more than just TV and streaming. It's little different than if I mentioned Google Trends, which is another set of analytics.

    You are somehow thinking that metrics are tied to specific companies, rather than as systems of analytics.

    Google Trends is something I already mentioned. Amazon's own internal system is another. You don't seem to understand what you're actually asking for, and don't recognize it when you have the answer in front of you.
    Competitors is of course how it works there are tons of metrics coming from within a given company and from many others and the industry chooses which ones are worth taking into account and are trust worthy they spend millions on this stuff, Pretty sure fencers laid this all out some days ago.

    Nielsen is the go to because it is has settled it self as the most accurate and trust worthy and obviously for good reason if you who works in the industry can’t even list any other metrics beyond google trends like 5 post in.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-09 at 06:37 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  8. #8888
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Nielsen is the good to because it is has settled it self as the most accurate and trust worthy and obviously for good reason if you who works in the industry can’t even lost any other metrics beyond google trends like 5 post in.
    Yet the framework in discussion is Nielsen in relation to Rings of Power being defined as successful, when Amazon and Prime Video isn't building their shows and platform around the 'Minutes Watched' metrics that Nielsen ratings are analyzing.

    This would be like saying how the World Cup does not use video-playback to judge their refereeing, and trying to apply that to other sports because 'the World Cup is the most widely watched sports event in the world'. That's not how this shit works. We can point at the fact that the World Cup is the most widely watched sports event in the world. We can point out that they do not use video-playback to aid in refereeing. But there is no reason to imply that this is a universal 'industry standard'. There is no standard.

    The most reasonable answer is the importance of the metrics would depend on the particular company we're talking about. It would be dishonest to imply that any one given metric is a universal standard.

    Just like if someone said Google Trends is THE metric for streaming in the industry, I would just as much argue the same damn thing. There is no one universal metric. It's merely a set of analytical data. Just like there is no ONE poll that is universally better than all other polls. The way we regard it all is merely as different sets of data coming from different sources.

    I'm not disputing the accuracy of the metrics, I'm disputing the relevancy of the metrics as being universally and equally applicable across all streaming platforms.

    lost any other metrics beyond google trends like 5 post in.
    So in short, you don't actually know what you're asking for, but you're asking for it anyways.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-02-09 at 06:49 PM.

  9. #8889
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Could you point to any more wide spread metric to be THE metric of the industry?
    They won't and will use some mental gymnastics for the reason why it should be ignored. This is just the latest tactic to de-legitimatize the success of Rings of Power. It has to be a failure in their minds so anything and everything will be used to say it is one. Nielsen is a respected viewership tracking company in the US. They have even negotiated with streaming companies so tracking can be expanded for their platforms. That is why we have a month delay for their "top 10" for example.

    The goal posts just keep moving. Now Nielsen is the problem but it won't be the last.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  10. #8890
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yet the framework in discussion is Nielsen in relation to Rings of Power being defined as successful, when Amazon and Prime Video isn't building their shows and platform around the 'Minutes Watched' metrics that Nielsen ratings are analyzing.

    This would be like saying how the World Cup does not use video-playback to judge their refereeing, and trying to apply that to other sports because 'the World Cup is the most widely watched sports event in the world'. That's not how this shit works.
    The frame work in discussion is this post by Fabinas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    The fact is that THIS IS THE METRIC USED by the industry.

    You not accepting it, calling it nonsensical etc, has no bearing or influence to the fact above.
    Talking about the metric uses by the industry, Amazon is not the industry, that goal post still isn’t moving.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They won't and will use some mental gymnastics for the reason why it should be ignored. This is just the latest tactic to de-legitimatize the success of Rings of Power. It has to be a failure in their minds so anything and everything will be used to say it is one. Nielsen is a respected viewership tracking company in the US. They have even negotiated with streaming companies so tracking can be expanded for their platforms. That is why we have a month delay for their "top 10" for example.

    The goal posts just keep moving. Now Nielsen is the problem but it won't be the last.
    Your completely on the money.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  11. #8891
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Talking about the metric uses by the industry, Amazon is not the industry, that goal post still isn’t moving.
    The answer is that no single metric is universally applicable in equal measure of importance. That answer still hasn't changed.

    You can keep that goalpost where it is. Asking for other competitors doesn't change the answer I've provided.


    Otherwise, do you believe House of the Dragon underperformed because it didn't make any of the Nielsen ratings lists? We know for a fact that it's omitted from lists because of various factors that the Nielsen ratings aren't counting. The metrics are not universally and equally applicable.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-02-09 at 06:54 PM.

  12. #8892
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The answer is that none exists.

    That answer doesn't change either.
    Well to quote you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Or you're just being dishonest.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #8893
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Well to quote you.
    You can quote it but the answer is still true, lol.

    No single metric is universal or equal in the industry. @Fencers can jump in to clarify that as well if he wishes to, if that's who you will believe.

    I'm not disputing Nielsen ratings as being inaccurate, I'm presenting the simple fact that its metrics are very specific to Streaming and not Total Viewership, which fudges all the numbers of the things we're actually talking about. If we're going to talk about performance and comparisons of various shows, then there's no reason to merely rely on Nielsen ratings as a defacto 'metric of the industry'.

    I'm honestly baffled by how this is lost to you guys, who think there is only one defacto method ofanalytics just because it happens to be reliable and widespread.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-02-09 at 07:03 PM.

  14. #8894
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You can quote it but the answer is still true, lol.

    No single metric is universal or equal in the industry. @Fencers can jump in to clarify that as well if he wishes to, if that's who you will believe.
    And to quote my self.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    There may be other metrics but they aren’t all equal and some are obviously more wide spread then others and it seems disingenuous to act like people aren’t talking about the most widely used one when saying it’s THE metric.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #8895
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    And to quote my self.
    There may be other metrics but they aren’t all equal and some are obviously more wide spread then others and it seems disingenuous to act like people aren’t talking about the most widely used one when saying it’s THE metric.

    Which is only applicable to the US, and not the world.

    WHereas something like Google Trends is actually applicable world-wide.

    Like I said, I don't think you actually understand what you're actually trying to defend. Nielsen ratings are very accurate, very reliable, and very trust-worthy. It's also very specific to analyzing minutes watched in the US. Everything we're regarding in terms of Nielsen is very specific to the metrics it's calculating. There is no reason to tout it as a 'Metric of the industry' any more than trying to argue that because Imperial measurement is widely used in the US, it's the 'Metric of the industry'.

    The answer is there is no singular metric for the industry, and that it all depends on what companies we're talking about.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-02-09 at 07:11 PM.

  16. #8896
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Like I said, I don't think you actually understand what you're actually trying to defend.
    Every one understands it perfectly well you just don’t have any thing of value to add which is why I can just quote my earlier post as you re cover things we already went over and why you have tried to move the goal post numerous times.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-09 at 07:19 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  17. #8897
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Every one understands it perfectly well you just don’t have any thing of value to add which is why I can just quote my earlier post as you re cover things we already went over and why you have tried to move the goal post numerous times.
    Everyone understands it to be A metric that the industry uses. Not everyone agrees it to be THE metric that the industry uses. That's a big difference.

    Otherwise people wouldn't bother refuting what Fabinas said, considering it would have been perfectly fine if he said it was a popular and widespread, reliable metric that the industry uses.

    There is no goalpost moving, you just don't recognize there to be a big difference in the statement. That's your choice to recognize as there being little-to-no difference. Not my problem if you don't recognize the differences in something you have little understanding in.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-02-09 at 07:25 PM.

  18. #8898
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Everyone understands it to be A metric that the industry uses. Not everyone agrees it to be THE metric that the industry uses. That's a big difference.

    Otherwise people wouldn't bother refuting what Fabinas said, considering it would have been perfectly fine if he said it was a popular and widespread, reliable metric that the industry uses.
    Ah my mistake let me rephrase, every one excluding the 5 or so if you bending over backwards any way you can to deny any and all success.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #8899
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Ah my mistake let me rephrase, every one excluding the 5 or so if you bending over backwards any way you can to deny any and all success.
    As opposed to the 3 or so of you who are agreeing?

    I don't 'think this matters considering we're talking about Nielsen ratings as metrics, not about 'denying any and all success'.

    I've said many times before in this thread that Rings of Power can be considered successful regardless of the Nielsen ratings, because Amazon has their own metrics that defined success for themselves. The Amazon exec came out to tout its success without mentioning or regarding Nielsen ratings at all, for example.

    You're misunderstanding my argument if you think I'm denying Rings of Power's success. This is about disposing the claim that Nielsen ratings are 'THE metric of the industry'
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-02-09 at 07:37 PM.

  20. #8900
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    No single metric is universal or equal in the industry.
    This is accurate. There are multiple ways of looking at the data for viewers and engagement within any media and content producer. Some, at their personal discretion, care about this or that metric more than another. The entertainment media business has standards for where & how they acquire that data.

    Data of any kind is often taken as a whole with specific data delivery used to show/measure whatever a property owner is interested in for the product or their goals for the product. See my earlier example about Apple's Coda.

    It is worth noting creative nor developmental are neither the same people/decision makers as those in charge of marketing, licensing, franchise marketing, etc. These are all different departments and executives in most cases.

    Paul Kotas doesn't necessarily have the same job as Jennifer Salke despite being in the same division at one point. And they may care about different data points than someone else.

    Amazon, as a whole, cares about money.

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