Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

You're transforming things that have been said to things that haven't been said. You're using false equivalents that have no bearing or meaning to the actual discussion.
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And Amazon will always be able to claim RoP was successful, because it had the 15th spot on Nielsen Streaming top 15 for 2022 for most minutes viewed.

And Amazon never claimed RoP was successful for being on Nielsen's Streaming top 15.

An Amazon exec came out to claim RoP's success based on their own internal metrics, which happens to be based on first-clicks and total viewership numbers.

You understand that the people who brought up the Nielsen Streaming top 15 as an argument point are doing so without regards to how Amazon actually considers Rings of Power to be successful, right? It's been a moot argument point from the beginning.

The only ones claiming RoP to be successful because it made the top 15 are people in this thread. This is why the claim that Nielsen ratings are THE metric of the industry is completely misappropriated. The streaming industry is not standardized around any single, universal metric that applies equally across all platforms

[Syegfryed]

It's not though, nowhere in Rings of Power does anyone mention "YER JERBS," that's a South Park meme you've picked up from somewhere and substituted for the actual show.

They did, its the same shit they just trade WORD job for trade, it have the same meaning, tis the same fucking allegory, no matter how you try to spin this shit around

No they're not. Losing trade to workers in another place is different to losing your job to immigrants even if the result is the same (unemployment.) Your failure to grasp this is...not actually that surprising.

Both are vallid in a sense of both happens, not that they are the same lmao, the only failure(apart form the show) is you understanding this.

Adar is an Orc, one of the first Orcs, and his entire arc is about showing Orcs in a more sympathetic light as people who deserve their own homeland and a chance to live their own way. Generally that's what people whinge about the "shades of grey" aspect, not whatever it is you've picked up.

Adar is a corrupted elf still, he is not an orc, someone middle transition.

What in the fucking hell do you see people exterminating and butchering the locals and burning the en tire land with a fucking volcano is "sympathetic light because homeland"?


Now you are going to tell me the hobbit story is a sensible story about community and friendship as well when they literally let their own to die? LOL

[rhorle]

6 months later and those people appear to have been right, and the almighty metrics were just… wrong.

So the Nielsen metrics are wrong? Isn't it strange that if they showed the show barely got any viewership you would be trusting them. The key difference between what is being used to call Rings of Power a success and your basketball analogy is that the basketball one was trying to predict future performance based on past/present performance. The Nielsen ratings are showing past/present performance. An entirely different thing that you clearly don't understand.

Why is it so hard to allow for Rings of Power to have been successful?

[Dhrizzle]

They did, its the same shit they just trade WORD job for trade, it have the same meaning, tis the same fucking allegory, no matter how you try to spin this shit around

So in Rings of Power someone says the "they took er jerbs" meme from South Park that you're unwittingly parroting, only they changed the words... so it isn't the same thing is it? If they use different words, they're not using the same words, so they're saying something different.

Both are vallid in a sense of both happens, not that they are the same lmao, the only failure(apart form the show) is you understanding this.

So they're not the same, and only one of them is mentioned in RoP, so why do you keep insisting it's actually the other one?

Adar is a corrupted elf still, he is not an orc, someone middle transition.

Not transitioning, he was twisted by Mordor and corrupted into an orc (though he prefers uruk.) At least that's what the series says but I'm sure you'll feel free to replace any of those words with ones you prefer.

What in the fucking hell do you see people exterminating and butchering the locals and burning the en tire land with a fucking volcano is "sympathetic light because homeland"?

Because the Orcs are just as much victims of Morgoth and Sauron, if not more so, than any of the Free Peoples of Middle-earth and their evil and brutality is the result of souls that could have lived in the grace of Illuvatar being twisted to the designs of a Dark Lord. Tolkien said they were to be pitied more than anything and that the path to redemption would be open to them, though he couldn't imagine what it would take for an Orc to walk that path.

Now you are going to tell me the hobbit story is a sensible story about community and friendship as well when they literally let their own to die? LOL

I find the Harfoots fascinating, when settled they're all about community and friendship as you say, but when it's time to move they will leave people to die and only carry them in memory. It's probably a culture developed by necessity as they are very much at the bottom of most food chains and vulnerable when on the move, but the way it's accepted plays nicely with my theory that Hobbits (or their ancestors) split from Men shortly after they awoke at Hildorean and avoided the darkness that Morgoth and Sauron put in the hearts of men which ultimately allowed Smeagol, Bilbo and Frodo (and Sam I guess) to bear the Ring for so long. Possibly Illuvatar gave them their diminished sizes for just that reason.

[Orange Joe]

They did, its the same shit they just trade WORD job for trade, it have the same meaning, tis the same fucking allegory, no matter how you try to spin this shit around

He is talking about YOU specifically using those words when the show didn't. yes they said something along the line of worrying about trade, but they didn't quote a meme, word for word, like you did....


That is what he is trying to say.

[Nerovar]

So the divide of the faithful and the King's Men was not about their views of elves? Their was no dislike or prejudice from the King's Men faction towards the elves? There is no reason to try to interject American politics into this discussion.

lol

Clearly the Númenóreans disliked the Elves because they were chuds who had irrational fears of falling living standards due to immigration. Awesome spin on a classic Tolkien story and very relatable to modern audiences.

[Syegfryed]

-blablering

not going to entertain this point anymore, you are wrong, and were pointed by many people already.

Not transitioning, he was twisted by Mordor and corrupted into an orc (though he prefers uruk.) At least that's what the series says but I'm sure you'll feel free to replace any of those words with ones you prefer.

He is an elf with a scar on his face, he have no resemble whatsoever to the orcs

At best they can do for you, is mention he is a Mirondor(Galadriel mention the name, and he doesn't confirm neither deny), that are the first elves twisted to the dark side, that eventually would give birth to the first orcs.

Because the Orcs are just as much victims of Morgoth and Sauron, if not more so,

They being victims is not a point here, you said they put then in a sensible light

you can't put then in a sensible light when you also show they killing innocent and burning down their houses, see the difference of how warcraft put orcs in a sensible light with thrall story.

I find the Harfoots fascinating, when settled they're all about community and friendship as you say, but when it's time to move they will leave people to die and only carry them in memory

Of course you would, now i know you ar eindeed trolling twisting the facts like this.

Dude broke his feet: well its time for you to die buddy, we will carry you in our memory as we ridicularize your death with the others


Or better, when something goes wrong, we take the wheels of your wagon so get fucked, true friendship

this is sick.

[rhorle]

Awesome spin on a classic Tolkien story and very relatable to modern audiences.

It is strange how you keep posting nonsense instead of simply saying you were wrong about what Tolkien wrote about.

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At best they can do for you, is mention he is a Mirondor(Galadriel mention the name, and he doesn't confirm neither deny), that are the first elves twisted to the dark side, that eventually would give birth to the first orcs.

He says he prefer to be called an Orc. It is so strange that you accept half of the information as truth but deny the rest. lol.

[Dhrizzle]

He is an elf with a scar on his face, he have no resemble whatsoever to the orcs

At best they can do for you, is mention he is a Mirondor(Galadriel mention the name, and he doesn't confirm neither deny), that are the first elves twisted to the dark side, that eventually would give birth to the first orcs.

He does confirm, he says he prefers Uruk, which means orc.

They being victims is not a point here, you said they put then in a sensible light

you can't put then in a sensible light when you also show they killing innocent and burning down their houses, see the difference of how warcraft put orcs in a sensible light with thrall story.

Then you don't understand Tolkien's Orcs. Yes it's absolutely terrible what they do, but it is utterly tragic that their spirits are twisted to a state where that is their preferred mode of life. And whilst I enjoyed the series overall I can see it has many flaws, but pretty much everyone without an irrational hate boner for the show saw Joseph Mawle's performance as an absolute gem that perfectly evoked how pitiable the Orcish condition is.

Dude broke his feet: well its time for you to die buddy, we will carry you in our memory as we ridicularize your death with the others

Or better, when something goes wrong, we take the wheels of your wagon so get fucked, true friendship

this is sick.[/QUOTE]

Funerals are memorials and celebrations of life, it isn't unusual for loved ones to laugh at funny memories.

Don't forget Nori had broken laws that should have resulted in them being left behind there and then. Sardoc placing them at the back is showing the minimal accordance with the laws while still giving them a chance to survive. The people wanting the wheels taken from the wagon later are the ones who believe they had already warranted the death sentence. Like I said it's fascinating to think how the Harfoot's history must have shaped their culture.

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It is strange how you keep posting nonsense instead of simply saying you were wrong about what Tolkien wrote about.

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He says he prefer to be called an Orc. It is so strange that you accept half of the information as truth but deny the rest. lol.

He says he prefers Uruk.

[Syegfryed]

He does confirm, he says he prefers Uruk, which means orc.

He don't, he is talking about "his children"

Then you don't understand Tolkien's Orcs.

I assure you, i understand more about orcs than you.

Funerals are memorials and celebrations of life, it isn't unusual for loved ones to laugh at funny memories.

ITs extremely funny hen you are the ones to cause the death of those loved ones, or even better, when you could save then and instead sentence then to death

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So let's repeat:

1. "The industry" doesn't care about how much it costs to produce something.
2. "The industry" doesn't care whether you actually charge money for the product.
3. All the industry cares about is engagement.

"The industry" sounds like a bunch of morons.

Not looking to be running around in any corn fields fighting strawmen personally.

[Dhrizzle]

He don't, he is talking about "his children"

Galadriel:You are one of them, are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.

Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."

[jackofwind]

Galadriel:You are one of them, are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.

Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."

Is there maybe a possibility that Syegfryed watches in a different language (with a slightly different direct translation), or that his awkward grasp of English prevents him from actually recognizing the different meanings that can be conveyed by a subtle difference of wording?

Boy, that would clear this thread up a whole lot.

[rhorle]

He don't, he is talking about "his children"

The show references Adar as an orc several times. The scene starts around 46:14 of episode 6.

Galadrial: You are one of them are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.
Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."

Adar: "I killed Sauron"
Galadrial: "I don't believe you"
Adar: "You cannot believe an Uruk could do that which your entire army could not."

After Adar says that Galadrial is an elf transformed by darkness as well she says, "Perhaps I shall begin by killing you, you slavering Orc".

[Syegfryed]

Galadriel:You are one of them, are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.

Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."

"the first orcs" aren't actually orcs, the moriondor are elves that fallen to the dark, that eventually produce the first orcs, he even said himself they are his children. At least with the lore from the show. He also said He was left with his emotions so he could feel the pain or whatever, not even fully twisted, not an orc.

He can call himself boglot for all i care.

People:

[Lorgar Aurelian]

"the first orcs" aren't actually orcs, the moriondor are elves that fallen to the dark, that eventually produce the first orcs, he even said himself they are his children. At least with the lore from the show. He also said He was left with his emotions so he could feel the pain or whatever, not even fully twisted, not an orc.

He can call himself boglot for all i care.

People:
https://i.imgur.com/XdPBUU2.png

Just going through orc stuff there doesn’t seem to be any conflict with there being earlier generations that are still elfy they are said to be corrupted and enslaved which lead to Melkor breeding the orcs but it doesn’t mention actual physical changes to the originally captured elfs so one could argue that orcs only changed looks wise with following generations.

and emotions are mentioned multiple times as well as orcs not being pure evil/originally evil.

But of those hapless who were snared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. [...] Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa: that all those of the Quendi that came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty and wickedness were corrupted and enslaved. Thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orkor in envy and mockery of the Eldar, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orkor had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance thereof, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orkor loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This maybe was the vilest deed of Melkor and the most hateful to Eru.

the Wise always taught that Orcs were not evil in their beginning and deserved compassion, even if they must be fought. However, granting them mercy was hard in times of war, and Morgoth had utterly convinced Orcs that Elves and Men were crueler than themselves. Besides, they were so controlled by their Lord, that when Morgoth was expelled from Arda, they scattered without control. Their lives tended to be controlled by a master.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orcs...n#cite_note-18

And of course from Tolkiens letters.

With regard to The Lord of the Rings, I cannot claim to be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted somewhere, Book Five, page 190,1 where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin. We believe that, I suppose, of all human kinds and sorts and breeds, though some appear, both as individuals and groups to be, by us at any rate, unredeemable.....

...even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence– even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) But whether they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them. That God would 'tolerate' that, seems no worse theology than the toleration of the calculated dehumanizing of Men by tyrants that goes on today
In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there is such a thing, since that is Zero. I do not think that at any rate any 'rational being' is wholly evil.

[Syegfryed]

Just going through orc stuff there doesn’t seem to be any conflict with there being earlier generations that are still elfy they are said to be corrupted and enslaved which lead to Melkor breeding the orcs but it doesn’t mention actual physical changes to the originally captured elfs so one could argue that orcs only changed looks wise with following generations.

That is all nice and dandy but pointless since tolkien never gave an actual canonical origin of orcs. Even if we go by the elven origins, it is said they were twisted and mutilated, a mockery of their their past images, so they would be different yes. As for it stand the moriandor, who were the corrupted elves, were bread to give birth to orcs.

Clearly something went wrong with Adar, like he mention, as he is pretty much an elf with some scars on his face.

and emotions are mentioned multiple times as well as orcs not being pure evil/originally evil.

Right, but that is not the point here, we all know Tolkien wrote the rocs would be redeemable, he also show how problematic would be that orcs came from elves since they would be in that place elves go when they die

[Surfd]

He also show how problematic would be that orcs came from elves since they would be in that place elves go when they die

Why would that be problematic? If you are going to stand by your assertion that the Moriondor are still Elves and not Orcs, and that the label of Orc would only be applicable to their descendants, then it would stand to reason that only the original Moriondor Elves would end up in the Halls of Mandos when they die. Orcs wouldnt end up in the Halls because Orcs aren't elves, according to you.

[Syegfryed]

Why would that be problematic?

Dunno? you have to ask Tolkien on that one. I guess he thought it would be dumb to have immortal orcs in middle earth with immortal souls in the halls with other elves without a proper "redemption" on their corrupted souls.

In his late years he wrote that orcs came from men, making more sense of why the elves didn't saw any orcs during the great march

If you are going to stand by your assertion that the Moriondor are still Elves and not Orcs, and that the label of Orc would only be applicable to their descendants, then it would stand to reason that only the original Moriondor Elves would end up in the Halls of Mandos when they die. Orcs wouldnt end up in the Halls because Orcs aren't elves, according to you.

They still would came from then and still would have the same elven "Fëa"/soul. I don't see why their descendants would not have the same kind of soul.

The only "soulless" beings are animals, and according to some texts, orcs( if we go by the origin of coming from stone or other animals); so you either have no soul or an elven or human soul, depending on their origin.

[Surfd]

They still would came from then and still would have the same elven "Fëa"/soul.

Would they though? If their descendants are corrupted sufficiently enough that they are no longer considered Elves, but something entirely new, would the souls of their offspring still be elven? If it is as implied that Morgoth's corruption was enough to cause their descendants to lose their elvish immortality, would their souls still be elvish?

I mean, for one, it's explicitly laid out in Tolkien's lore that the distinction between elven souls and mannish souls is how they are treated differently when it comes to death: Elvish souls are bound to Arda, and reincarnated through the Halls of Mandos. They are explicitly tied to the world until it's end, as decreed by Tolkien. Mannish souls are not, and it's largely believed that when they died, they were free to move "elsewhere", beyond the confines of Arda. They may or may not have still been collected by Mandos in the halls though, before being sent wherever they ended up going however.

It's also noted that half-elves likely had a personal choice as to where their Fëa was counted, as at least one of them chose the Fate of Men when they died, and their soul was considered "lost" to their kin, as they passed beyond Arda.

So there's possible precedent for effectively being able to "breed out" the elvish attachment to the world, which is effectively what defines the difference between an "elvish" and "non-elvish" soul.

This means it's still fairly plausible that the later generations of Orcs beyond the original corrupted elves might not have had elvish souls.