Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Surfd]

He also show how problematic would be that orcs came from elves since they would be in that place elves go when they die

Why would that be problematic? If you are going to stand by your assertion that the Moriondor are still Elves and not Orcs, and that the label of Orc would only be applicable to their descendants, then it would stand to reason that only the original Moriondor Elves would end up in the Halls of Mandos when they die. Orcs wouldnt end up in the Halls because Orcs aren't elves, according to you.

[Syegfryed]

Why would that be problematic?

Dunno? you have to ask Tolkien on that one. I guess he thought it would be dumb to have immortal orcs in middle earth with immortal souls in the halls with other elves without a proper "redemption" on their corrupted souls.

In his late years he wrote that orcs came from men, making more sense of why the elves didn't saw any orcs during the great march

If you are going to stand by your assertion that the Moriondor are still Elves and not Orcs, and that the label of Orc would only be applicable to their descendants, then it would stand to reason that only the original Moriondor Elves would end up in the Halls of Mandos when they die. Orcs wouldnt end up in the Halls because Orcs aren't elves, according to you.

They still would came from then and still would have the same elven "Fëa"/soul. I don't see why their descendants would not have the same kind of soul.

The only "soulless" beings are animals, and according to some texts, orcs( if we go by the origin of coming from stone or other animals); so you either have no soul or an elven or human soul, depending on their origin.

[Surfd]

They still would came from then and still would have the same elven "Fëa"/soul.

Would they though? If their descendants are corrupted sufficiently enough that they are no longer considered Elves, but something entirely new, would the souls of their offspring still be elven? If it is as implied that Morgoth's corruption was enough to cause their descendants to lose their elvish immortality, would their souls still be elvish?

I mean, for one, it's explicitly laid out in Tolkien's lore that the distinction between elven souls and mannish souls is how they are treated differently when it comes to death: Elvish souls are bound to Arda, and reincarnated through the Halls of Mandos. They are explicitly tied to the world until it's end, as decreed by Tolkien. Mannish souls are not, and it's largely believed that when they died, they were free to move "elsewhere", beyond the confines of Arda. They may or may not have still been collected by Mandos in the halls though, before being sent wherever they ended up going however.

It's also noted that half-elves likely had a personal choice as to where their Fëa was counted, as at least one of them chose the Fate of Men when they died, and their soul was considered "lost" to their kin, as they passed beyond Arda.

So there's possible precedent for effectively being able to "breed out" the elvish attachment to the world, which is effectively what defines the difference between an "elvish" and "non-elvish" soul.

This means it's still fairly plausible that the later generations of Orcs beyond the original corrupted elves might not have had elvish souls.

[Syegfryed]

Would they though?

Tolkien said so, thats why he changed later for then to be human descendant in his late notes/manuscripts

If their descendants are corrupted sufficiently enough that they are no longer considered Elves, but something entirely new, would the souls of their offspring still be elven? If it is as implied that Morgoth's corruption was enough to cause their descendants to lose their elvish immortality, would their souls still be elvish?

I don't see why it should, Morgoth and Sauron were still Ainur/maiar respectfully even after being corrupted to the dark(even more powerful perhaps) and isn't implied they lost immortality.

I mean, for one, it's explicitly laid out in Tolkien's lore that elven souls and mannish souls are treated differently when it comes to death: Elvish souls are bound to Arda, and reincarnated through Mandos. They are explicitly tied to the world until it's end, as decreed by Tolkien. Mannish souls are not, and it's largely believed that when they died, they were free to move "elsewhere", beyond the confines of Arda.

Yes, that is why is a problem if orcs had elven souls, they would go to mandos, and wait to be reincarnated with then, instead of going "elsewhere' with men.

So there's possible precedent for effectively being able to "breed out" the elvish attachment to the world

IF, they were breed out with men, that would make sense. Either way, they would still go either way.

[rhorle]

"the first orcs" aren't actually orcs, the moriondor are elves that fallen to the dark, that eventually produce the first orcs, he even said himself they are his children. At least with the lore from the show. He also said He was left with his emotions so he could feel the pain or whatever, not even fully twisted, not an orc.

So then you consider the Oathbreakers human still? They can't be undead because they are just humans corrupted by their failed oath. So then you consider Ringwraiths to be human still? They can't be <whatever> because they are just humans corrupted by the rings.

He is an Orc. The show makes that clear. I'm not sure why you are so dead set on him not being an orc.

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That is all nice and dandy but pointless since tolkien never gave an actual canonical origin of orcs.

So then you consider the Christopher works non-canon? Interesting. I make this conclusion because his son published the origin story of orcs and made it "official". The show references that origin in the trivia of the episode 6 by adding Elves to the statement of Frodo from the books.


Morgoth could not make real, new things of his own - he could only corrupt and twist things that already exist. Orcs are merely mockeries of elves. (Book VI, Chapter 1) Scene 32 Starts at 00:46:40

Treebeard in The Two Towers also calls orcs corrupted elves. So it is canon, from JRR, that they were corrupted elves. He may have wanted to change it like many parts of his stories but it never was.

'Ho, hm, well, we could, you know! You do not know, perhaps, how strong we are. Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves. We are stronger than Trolls.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That is all nice and dandy but pointless since tolkien never gave an actual canonical origin of orcs. Even if we go by the elven origins, it is said they were twisted and mutilated, a mockery of their their past images, so they would be different yes. As for it stand the moriandor, who were the corrupted elves, were bread to give birth to orcs.

Clearly something went wrong with Adar, like he mention, as he is pretty much an elf with some scars on his face.

Well if we’re going with the elf origin like RoP seemingly does it could be that twisted means there souls which is why they aren’t immortal and mutilated would seemingly fit with the scars. Even Adar being a mockery could fit with his gaunt face and black blood.

Proper orcs obviously deviate a lot more but if the idea is that the first orcs were corrupted elfs that then bred more orcs making the first still looking elvish before there children got further and further away from that seems fitting.

[Syegfryed]

Well if we’re going with the elf origin like RoP seemingly does it could be that twisted means there souls which is why they aren’t immortal and mutilated would seemingly fit with the scars. Even Adar being a mockery could fit with his gaunt face and black blood.

Adar looks exactly like any other elf in rings of power, bput with some mark on the side of his face he looks more like an elf than fucking Elrond and Belebrimbor.

And there is no such thing of "if the soul is twisted enough they would lost immortality", tolkien never said thar, there is some records of living orcs who surpassed 150 years of age

Proper orcs obviously deviate a lot more but if the idea is that the first orcs were corrupted elfs that then bred more orcs making the first still looking elvish before there children got further and further away from that seems fitting.

Hence my point of saying he isn't a proper orc, but an "dark elf" who bread proper orcs ie. his children.

From what we gather of his dialogue, he was not fully transformed, and still retain most of his elvish shenanigans

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Adar looks exactly like any other elf in rings of power, bput with some mark on the side of his face he looks more like an elf than fucking Elrond and Belebrimbor.

And there is no such thing of "if the soul is twisted enough they would lost immortality", tolkien never said thar, there is some records of living orcs who surpassed 150 years of age

Id have to go through the actor's but I don't think any elf's in Rop looked gaunt and they certainty don't have black blood like adar.

And if the soul can't be twisted enough to lose immortality then all orc should just be immortal as there parents would still be just elf's and they would just have birth defects.

Hence my point of saying he isn't a proper orc, but an "dark elf" who bread proper orcs ie. his children.

From what we gather of his dialogue, he was not fully transformed, and still retain most of his elvish shenanigans

From the Dialogue Glad calls him "the first orcs" he agrees and but say's they prefer Uruk, there are never any mentions of a transformation I can recall nor him retaining any thing from elvdom, he's called an orc and he agrees that he is one.

as far as Tolkien goes all we got is that elves were "corrupted and enslaved" into orcs and then the race was bred, we don't have any real way of knowing if that first generation transformed visibly in any real way or if there kids just got uglier as time went own due to the corruption.

[Syegfryed]

Id have to go through the actor's but I don't think any elf's in Rop looked gaunt and they certainty don't have black blood like adar

We are talking about appearance, not innards, so yeah, he looks more elven than Celebrimbor by far.

And if the soul can't be twisted enough to lose immortality then all orc should just be immortal as there parents would still be just elf's and they would just have birth defects.

Yes, they would be immortal, thats why alter Tolkien changed their origin to humans instead, but died before setting things up

From the Dialogue Glad calls him "the first orcs" he agrees and but say's they prefer Uruk, there are never any mentions of a transformation I can recall nor him retaining any thing from elvdom, he's called an orc and he agrees that he is one.

Like i said, he can intensify himself that way, but its not what he looks like, the proper orcs were breed from those elves.

as far as Tolkien goes all we got is that elves were "corrupted and enslaved"

Twisted and mutilated*

[rhorle]

Adar looks exactly like any other elf in rings of power, bput with some mark on the side of his face he looks more like an elf than fucking Elrond and Belebrimbor.

Is there a different definition for exactly you are using? He looks different from other Elves on the show and he has black blood. If he looks more like an elf then others he can't also look exactly like them. Lmao. Just give it a rest. There is no reason to keep arguing something when you are clearly wrong.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

We are talking about appearance, not innards, so yeah, he looks more elven than Celebrimbor by far.

I wouldn't say looking gaunt is very elfy, but if you do more power to you I guess.

Like i said, he can intensify himself that way, but its not what he looks like, the proper orcs were breed from those elves.

we Don't know what the first generation of orc looks like Tolkien didn't describe them as far as I'm aware in any of his writings all we know is that the Elves were corrupted into orcs and then Bred more and Adar falls in line with that just fine.

Twisted and mutilated*

I put a quote form Tolkien above, the neither the words twisted or mutilated* are used, "corrupted and enslaved" how ever are. If you have a different quote please post it.

[beanman12345]

IIRC, he watched each episode in a pub with friends. Perhaps he just misheard things through the general noise/conversation /shrug

The real issue is generally he will only ever accept whatever he himself believes, there is zero wiggle room for reflection. And he really does just twist anything he can into a negative for this series for some reason lol It's like some folks have made it their identity, and absolutely must have this series be an outright failure (despite it blatantly being successful). It's why you see things move to new talking points like Prime costs, as if that has anything to do with it.

But I digress. He's like this in every thread within this sub-forum. It's either what he believes, or it's wrong.

I've been kinda lurking this thread for a while, in and out, mostly because I'm actually surprised it's still active considering, though I guess I shouldn't be. It can sometimes be amusing when someone goes off completely denying basic reality in a harmless matter, hence the whole copium thing. But when the tantrum just never ends, it's just get's boring and sad and the second hand embarrassment starts. I guess people can do whatever they want, who am I to say otherwise, but I mean these companies make billions tens of billions because of how they measure by what they consider successful, not that it's like an exact science and perfect method, but those people do know more than someone going out of their way to make it clear they don't know the difference in the meaning objective and subjective. If like that in other threads too, yikes. Just too banal for me to ever want to engage, really just no point in it.

[beanman12345]

Wow, this guy sounds cool!

More seriously though - just make your point. What’s “banal” is the “I’m too cool to post, but I’m posting anyway” move.

And to your point - ummm, yeah, corporations screw up all the time - particularly huge tech companies taking big risks.

Yes, they do screw up all the time, but didn't with this, and no amount of denial and being very angry will change that fact, but don't let that stop you.

[jackofwind]

I've been kinda lurking this thread for a while, in and out, mostly because I'm actually surprised it's still active considering, though I guess I shouldn't be. It can sometimes be amusing when someone goes off completely denying basic reality in a harmless matter, hence the whole copium thing. But when the tantrum just never ends, it's just get's boring and sad and the second hand embarrassment starts. I guess people can do whatever they want, who am I to say otherwise, but I mean these companies make billions tens of billions because of how they measure by what they consider successful, not that it's like an exact science and perfect method, but those people do know more than someone going out of their way to make it clear they don't know the difference in the meaning objective and subjective. If like that in other threads too, yikes. Just too banal for me to ever want to engage, really just no point in it.

Yet you just engaged, you degenerate.

[Dhrizzle]

Would they though? If their descendants are corrupted sufficiently enough that they are no longer considered Elves, but something entirely new, would the souls of their offspring still be elven? If it is as implied that Morgoth's corruption was enough to cause their descendants to lose their elvish immortality, would their souls still be elvish?

I mean, for one, it's explicitly laid out in Tolkien's lore that the distinction between elven souls and mannish souls is how they are treated differently when it comes to death: Elvish souls are bound to Arda, and reincarnated through the Halls of Mandos. They are explicitly tied to the world until it's end, as decreed by Tolkien. Mannish souls are not, and it's largely believed that when they died, they were free to move "elsewhere", beyond the confines of Arda. They may or may not have still been collected by Mandos in the halls though, before being sent wherever they ended up going however.

It's also noted that half-elves likely had a personal choice as to where their Fëa was counted, as at least one of them chose the Fate of Men when they died, and their soul was considered "lost" to their kin, as they passed beyond Arda.

So there's possible precedent for effectively being able to "breed out" the elvish attachment to the world, which is effectively what defines the difference between an "elvish" and "non-elvish" soul.

This means it's still fairly plausible that the later generations of Orcs beyond the original corrupted elves might not have had elvish souls.

@Syegfryed is pretty much right in this one, Tolkien was worried about what Orcs descending from Elves would mean for their eternal souls as they should be tied to Middle-earth. He preferred the idea of them descending from Men but never incorporated that idea as it would involve shifting the time-line around so Men awoke before the Sun rose. If he got around to writing a "true" history of Middle-earth this could have come in with the round-world cosmology that he also preferred but rather than rewrite the Silmarillion that much he decided to frame it as legends among Men and the Sylvan Elves who didn't have as much understanding as the Amanyar.

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Id have to go through the actor's but I don't think any elf's in Rop looked gaunt and they certainty don't have black blood like adar.

And if the soul can't be twisted enough to lose immortality then all orc should just be immortal as there parents would still be just elf's and they would just have birth defects.

From the Dialogue Glad calls him "the first orcs" he agrees and but say's they prefer Uruk, there are never any mentions of a transformation I can recall nor him retaining any thing from elvdom, he's called an orc and he agrees that he is one.

as far as Tolkien goes all we got is that elves were "corrupted and enslaved" into orcs and then the race was bred, we don't have any real way of knowing if that first generation transformed visibly in any real way or if there kids just got uglier as time went own due to the corruption.

Both the LotR trilogy and RoP take liberties with the appearance of Orcs to make them look more frightening, Tolkien described them (in problematic terms) as being rather ugly but not mutilated like the on-screen ors.

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"the first orcs" aren't actually orcs

Brilliant. The show calls them Orcs, logic says they must be Orcs because that's what they were made into.

[Syegfryed]

I wouldn't say looking gaunt is very elfy, but if you do more power to you I guess.

Ah yes, cause looking Gaunt and old as balls, like Celebrimbor, sure sounds elvish

we Don't know what the first generation of orc looks like Tolkien didn't describe them as far as I'm aware in any of his writings all we know is that the Elves were corrupted into orcs and then Bred more and Adar falls in line with that just fine.

If he doesn't mention a difference in appearance, we stick with the premise that they always had this appearance after being breed/transformed, cause if there was a difference, Tolkien would have mentioned in one of his notes. He said this however: 'Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish'

And again, this is also parting from the premise they came from elves and not humans, which is again, a weird point to talk, since it flip-flops from show lore and tolkien lore.

I put a quote form Tolkien above, the neither the words twisted or mutilated* are used, "corrupted and enslaved" how ever are. If you have a different quote please post it.

It is a direte quote from the movies who were taken from silmilarion, that they were twisted and mutilated, both in mind and body

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Men but never incorporated that idea as it would involve shifting the time-line around so Men awoke before the Sun rose. If he got around to writing a "true" history of Middle-earth this could have come in with the round-world cosmology that he also preferred but rather than rewrite the Silmarillion that much he decided to frame it as legends among Men and the Sylvan Elves who didn't have as much understanding as the Amanyar.

He did incorporated, as there is others works he put orcs coming from men, but he did not finish it, as it would require the change in the timeline, but he died before doing it. But again, it makes more sense because elves did not saw any orcs during the great marche.

Brilliant. The show calls them Orcs, logic says they must be Orcs because that's what they were made into.

Not Adar, no, he would still be the dark elf who breed the real orcs.

Even if he and the show call himself an orc, it defeats and fucks over the whole premise of "showing orcs in a better light" when the fucker looks more like an elf than Celebrimbor.

[rhorle]

Explain to me: the goal of a company like Amazon is to make money. If this is a success it must have either made money or helped them make money. How did it do that?

By driving sign ups and retaining subscribers. The same way Netflix makes money. This topic has been discussed here before. There was a leak of Amazon information back in 2018 that gives a small glimpse of how they consider these things.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKCN1GR0FX

The documents also show that Amazon’s U.S. audience for all video programming on Prime, including films and TV shows it licenses from other companies, was about 26 million customers. Amazon has never released figures for its total audience.

I'm highlighting this part from the article because it mentions that Amazon believed their audience for all Prime Video was about 26 million customers. This was back in 2018 and the service has grown significantly since then. It really indicates how the viewership of Reacher, The Boys, and The Rings of Power is such a big deal to the service and gave Amazon a "Win".

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@Syegfryed is pretty much right in this one, Tolkien was worried about what Orcs descending from Elves would mean for their eternal souls as they should be tied to Middle-earth. He preferred the idea of them descending from Men but never incorporated that idea as it would involve shifting the time-line around so Men awoke before the Sun rose.

To be fair what Tolkien wrote still allows for the eternal souls to not be an issue. As the Elven-Orcs can simply be a different breed. Tolkien did have Half-Orcs and Goblin-men. Not all were created by Saurman as I saw something imply that Half-Orcs existed prior to the Dunlendings going to Saruman but can't find a specific quote from the books to back that up. The First Elves could simply have their eternal souls locked away in the Halls of Mandos. Being cast into the Void or "weakening" like Sauron after his final defeat are also possible fates.

Is it something left unexplained? Certainly but even with out a re-write there are ways it can work.

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Even if he and the show call himself an orc, it defeats and fucks over the whole premise of "showing orcs in a better light" when the fucker looks more like an elf than Celebrimbor.

Doesn't making an Orc more like an elf give it a better light by default? I think this is just a case of you not understanding something or being to lost in the argument to see it.

[jackofwind]

It is a direte quote from the movies who were taken from silmilarion, that they were twisted and mutilated, both in mind and body

Today I learned that Tolkien himself wrote screenplays for Peter Jackson.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ah yes, cause looking Gaunt and old as balls, like Celebrimbor, sure sounds elvish

Cele doesn't look Gaunt at all, Gauntness is thinness to the point of looking sick. Adar Has sunken Shallow cheeks which is a notable visual of Gauntness.

Cele might look old (id contest old as balls) but she surly isn't gaunt.

If he doesn't mention a difference in appearance, we stick with the premise that they always had this appearance after being breed/transformed, cause if there was a difference, Tolkien would have mentioned in one of his notes. He said this however: 'Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish'

Tolkien Does mention difference appearances just not around the First generation they are more or less a foot note and one he was tinkering with and never actual locked down. What we do know is that there are different breeds of orcs rather they be the Uruk-hai half orcs or the normal ones so changes in appearance with following generations wouldn't be out of no where.

and as far as Tolkien's actual description goes it's "The least lovely Mongol-types."ect, not the actual monsters we got from the Jackson movies/Rop. Adar might not fit that description depending on how you want to take it but neither do the "proper" orcs so you could argue rather still being within human looks but not "Mongol typed" is further then being a totally inhuman monster like we got.

And again, this is also parting from the premise they came from elves and not humans, which is again, a weird point to talk, since it flip-flops from show lore and tolkien lore.

it's not a flip flop of Tolkien's lore the only mention of there creation published by Tolken was them being from elves as Rhorle Mentioned in the two towers with.

'Ho, hm, well, we could, you know! You do not know, perhaps, how strong we are. Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves. We are stronger than Trolls.

It is a direte quote from the movies who were taken from Silmilarion, that they were twisted and mutilated, both in mind and body

Went ahead and found a pdf of the Silmilarion to search through, There is only one use of twisted in it and no use of mutilated. While the quote I used above where they were "corrupted and enslaved" shows up in the Silmilarion word for word so even outside of the two towers it is the settled upon origin Tolkien's son went with.

The use of twisted if curious.

But Melkor spoke to them in secret of Mortal Men, seeing how the
silence of the Valar might be twisted to evil.

Mabye you read it in a different langue where corrupted and enslaved was translated to twisted and mutilated but it's not in the English verison of the book.

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Reading through more of the Silmarillion, I found this

And ere long the evil creatures came even to Beleriand, over passes in the
mountains, or up from the south through the dark forests. Wolves there were, or
creatures that walked in wolf-shapes, and other fell beings of shadow; and
among them were the Orcs, who afterwards wrought ruin in Beleriand: but they
were yet few and wary, and did but smell out the ways of the land, awaiting the
return of their lord. Whence they came, or what they were, the Elves knew not
then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari who had become evil and savage in the
wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said.

Which would obviously point to them still looking some what elvish and not the oatmeal monsters we got on screen.

[Syegfryed]

Today I learned that Tolkien himself wrote screenplays for Peter Jackson.

He wrote the notes on the silmarilion, that they took directly from the book and put into the movie, not the first time this ever happened, you know, rings of power straight up directly took quotes from the movie as well, but Peter jackson was not part of it.

Pretty funny coming from someone who was boasting about understanding things before, hum?

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Cele doesn't look Gaunt at all, Gauntness is thinness to the point of looking sick. Adar Has sunken Shallow cheeks which is a notable visual of Gauntness.

Cele might look old (id contest old as balls) but she surly isn't gaunt.

Celebrimbor look like he is dying my guy

You can't possible say with a straight face he looks more elvish than Adar, just because he have a thing on his cheek.

Tolkien Does mention difference appearances just not around the First generation they are more or less a foot note and one he was tinkering with and never actual locked down. What we do know is that there are different breeds of orcs rather they be the Uruk-hai half orcs or the normal ones so changes in appearance with following generations wouldn't be out of no where.

The only differences mentioned about orcs are the subraces whitin the species, like some of then being smaller that would be called goblins or the snaga, and the ones almsot human-height and darker that lived in mordor, then the ones who were mixed with humans and other goblins.

ORcs are usually small, smaller than man, totally different from the elves who are way taller.

and as far as Tolkien's actual description goes it's "The least lovely Mongol-types."ect, not the actual monsters we got from the Jackson movies/Rop. Adar might not fit that description depending on how you want to take it but neither do the "proper" orcs so you could argue rather still being within human looks but not "Mongol typed" is further then being a totally inhuman monster like we got.

Adar doesn't even fit the proper description of the orcs within the show he is 200% different from the orcs they showed so far.

Adar is literally an elf with a charred face, he does not share any characteristics whatsoever that Tolkien mention when talk about orcs. Thats why is dumb to say "they are showing orcs in a better light" talking about Adar, when he is straight up an elf in appearance. Or for the show, a Moriondor

it's not a flip flop of Tolkien's lore the only mention of there creation published by Tolken was them being from elves as Rhorle Mentioned in the two towers with.

There is no mention in the two towers book afaik, its mentioned in the movies, because Jackson took the version that was published in the silmarilion, that was made by his son.

but its a long time since i took the books out of the boxes.

Reading through more of the Silmarillion, I found this Which would obviously point to them still looking some what elvish and not the oatmeal monsters we got on screen.

Of what they "were" suggest they were no longer somewhat elvish, and are more close to the goblin-ish traits like he describe later.