1. #8941
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    He is an elf with a scar on his face, he have no resemble whatsoever to the orcs

    At best they can do for you, is mention he is a Mirondor(Galadriel mention the name, and he doesn't confirm neither deny), that are the first elves twisted to the dark side, that eventually would give birth to the first orcs.
    He does confirm, he says he prefers Uruk, which means orc.

    They being victims is not a point here, you said they put then in a sensible light

    you can't put then in a sensible light when you also show they killing innocent and burning down their houses, see the difference of how warcraft put orcs in a sensible light with thrall story.
    Then you don't understand Tolkien's Orcs. Yes it's absolutely terrible what they do, but it is utterly tragic that their spirits are twisted to a state where that is their preferred mode of life. And whilst I enjoyed the series overall I can see it has many flaws, but pretty much everyone without an irrational hate boner for the show saw Joseph Mawle's performance as an absolute gem that perfectly evoked how pitiable the Orcish condition is.

    Dude broke his feet: well its time for you to die buddy, we will carry you in our memory as we ridicularize your death with the others
    Or better, when something goes wrong, we take the wheels of your wagon so get fucked, true friendship

    this is sick.[/QUOTE]

    Funerals are memorials and celebrations of life, it isn't unusual for loved ones to laugh at funny memories.

    Don't forget Nori had broken laws that should have resulted in them being left behind there and then. Sardoc placing them at the back is showing the minimal accordance with the laws while still giving them a chance to survive. The people wanting the wheels taken from the wagon later are the ones who believe they had already warranted the death sentence. Like I said it's fascinating to think how the Harfoot's history must have shaped their culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is strange how you keep posting nonsense instead of simply saying you were wrong about what Tolkien wrote about.

    - - - Updated - - -



    He says he prefer to be called an Orc. It is so strange that you accept half of the information as truth but deny the rest. lol.
    He says he prefers Uruk.

  2. #8942
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    He does confirm, he says he prefers Uruk, which means orc.
    He don't, he is talking about "his children"


    Then you don't understand Tolkien's Orcs.
    I assure you, i understand more about orcs than you.
    Funerals are memorials and celebrations of life, it isn't unusual for loved ones to laugh at funny memories.
    ITs extremely funny hen you are the ones to cause the death of those loved ones, or even better, when you could save then and instead sentence then to death

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    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    So let's repeat:

    1. "The industry" doesn't care about how much it costs to produce something.
    2. "The industry" doesn't care whether you actually charge money for the product.
    3. All the industry cares about is engagement.

    "The industry" sounds like a bunch of morons.
    Not looking to be running around in any corn fields fighting strawmen personally.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #8944
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    He don't, he is talking about "his children"
    Galadriel:You are one of them, are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.

    Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."

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    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Galadriel:You are one of them, are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.

    Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."
    Is there maybe a possibility that Syegfryed watches in a different language (with a slightly different direct translation), or that his awkward grasp of English prevents him from actually recognizing the different meanings that can be conveyed by a subtle difference of wording?

    Boy, that would clear this thread up a whole lot.
    Last edited by jackofwind; 2023-02-10 at 02:07 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  6. #8946
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    He don't, he is talking about "his children"
    The show references Adar as an orc several times. The scene starts around 46:14 of episode 6.

    Galadrial: You are one of them are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.
    Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."

    Adar: "I killed Sauron"
    Galadrial: "I don't believe you"
    Adar: "You cannot believe an Uruk could do that which your entire army could not."

    After Adar says that Galadrial is an elf transformed by darkness as well she says, "Perhaps I shall begin by killing you, you slavering Orc".
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  7. #8947
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Galadriel:You are one of them, are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.

    Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."
    "the first orcs" aren't actually orcs, the moriondor are elves that fallen to the dark, that eventually produce the first orcs, he even said himself they are his children. At least with the lore from the show. He also said He was left with his emotions so he could feel the pain or whatever, not even fully twisted, not an orc.

    He can call himself boglot for all i care.

    People:
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2023-02-10 at 06:02 AM.

  8. #8948
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    "the first orcs" aren't actually orcs, the moriondor are elves that fallen to the dark, that eventually produce the first orcs, he even said himself they are his children. At least with the lore from the show. He also said He was left with his emotions so he could feel the pain or whatever, not even fully twisted, not an orc.

    He can call himself boglot for all i care.

    People:
    https://i.imgur.com/XdPBUU2.png
    Just going through orc stuff there doesn’t seem to be any conflict with there being earlier generations that are still elfy they are said to be corrupted and enslaved which lead to Melkor breeding the orcs but it doesn’t mention actual physical changes to the originally captured elfs so one could argue that orcs only changed looks wise with following generations.

    and emotions are mentioned multiple times as well as orcs not being pure evil/originally evil.

    But of those hapless who were snared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. [...] Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa: that all those of the Quendi that came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty and wickedness were corrupted and enslaved. Thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orkor in envy and mockery of the Eldar, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orkor had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance thereof, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orkor loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This maybe was the vilest deed of Melkor and the most hateful to Eru.
    the Wise always taught that Orcs were not evil in their beginning and deserved compassion, even if they must be fought. However, granting them mercy was hard in times of war, and Morgoth had utterly convinced Orcs that Elves and Men were crueler than themselves. Besides, they were so controlled by their Lord, that when Morgoth was expelled from Arda, they scattered without control. Their lives tended to be controlled by a master.
    https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orcs...n#cite_note-18

    And of course from Tolkiens letters.

    With regard to The Lord of the Rings, I cannot claim to be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted somewhere, Book Five, page 190,1 where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin. We believe that, I suppose, of all human kinds and sorts and breeds, though some appear, both as individuals and groups to be, by us at any rate, unredeemable.....

    ...even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence– even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) But whether they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them. That God would 'tolerate' that, seems no worse theology than the toleration of the calculated dehumanizing of Men by tyrants that goes on today
    In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there is such a thing, since that is Zero. I do not think that at any rate any 'rational being' is wholly evil.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-10 at 06:56 AM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  9. #8949
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Just going through orc stuff there doesn’t seem to be any conflict with there being earlier generations that are still elfy they are said to be corrupted and enslaved which lead to Melkor breeding the orcs but it doesn’t mention actual physical changes to the originally captured elfs so one could argue that orcs only changed looks wise with following generations.
    That is all nice and dandy but pointless since tolkien never gave an actual canonical origin of orcs. Even if we go by the elven origins, it is said they were twisted and mutilated, a mockery of their their past images, so they would be different yes. As for it stand the moriandor, who were the corrupted elves, were bread to give birth to orcs.

    Clearly something went wrong with Adar, like he mention, as he is pretty much an elf with some scars on his face.
    and emotions are mentioned multiple times as well as orcs not being pure evil/originally evil.
    Right, but that is not the point here, we all know Tolkien wrote the rocs would be redeemable, he also show how problematic would be that orcs came from elves since they would be in that place elves go when they die

  10. #8950
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    He also show how problematic would be that orcs came from elves since they would be in that place elves go when they die
    Why would that be problematic? If you are going to stand by your assertion that the Moriondor are still Elves and not Orcs, and that the label of Orc would only be applicable to their descendants, then it would stand to reason that only the original Moriondor Elves would end up in the Halls of Mandos when they die. Orcs wouldnt end up in the Halls because Orcs aren't elves, according to you.

  11. #8951
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Why would that be problematic?
    Dunno? you have to ask Tolkien on that one. I guess he thought it would be dumb to have immortal orcs in middle earth with immortal souls in the halls with other elves without a proper "redemption" on their corrupted souls.

    In his late years he wrote that orcs came from men, making more sense of why the elves didn't saw any orcs during the great march
    If you are going to stand by your assertion that the Moriondor are still Elves and not Orcs, and that the label of Orc would only be applicable to their descendants, then it would stand to reason that only the original Moriondor Elves would end up in the Halls of Mandos when they die. Orcs wouldnt end up in the Halls because Orcs aren't elves, according to you.
    They still would came from then and still would have the same elven "Fëa"/soul. I don't see why their descendants would not have the same kind of soul.

    The only "soulless" beings are animals, and according to some texts, orcs( if we go by the origin of coming from stone or other animals); so you either have no soul or an elven or human soul, depending on their origin.

  12. #8952
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    They still would came from then and still would have the same elven "Fëa"/soul.
    Would they though? If their descendants are corrupted sufficiently enough that they are no longer considered Elves, but something entirely new, would the souls of their offspring still be elven? If it is as implied that Morgoth's corruption was enough to cause their descendants to lose their elvish immortality, would their souls still be elvish?

    I mean, for one, it's explicitly laid out in Tolkien's lore that the distinction between elven souls and mannish souls is how they are treated differently when it comes to death: Elvish souls are bound to Arda, and reincarnated through the Halls of Mandos. They are explicitly tied to the world until it's end, as decreed by Tolkien. Mannish souls are not, and it's largely believed that when they died, they were free to move "elsewhere", beyond the confines of Arda. They may or may not have still been collected by Mandos in the halls though, before being sent wherever they ended up going however.

    It's also noted that half-elves likely had a personal choice as to where their Fëa was counted, as at least one of them chose the Fate of Men when they died, and their soul was considered "lost" to their kin, as they passed beyond Arda.

    So there's possible precedent for effectively being able to "breed out" the elvish attachment to the world, which is effectively what defines the difference between an "elvish" and "non-elvish" soul.

    This means it's still fairly plausible that the later generations of Orcs beyond the original corrupted elves might not have had elvish souls.
    Last edited by Surfd; 2023-02-10 at 12:26 PM.

  13. #8953
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Would they though?
    Tolkien said so, thats why he changed later for then to be human descendant in his late notes/manuscripts
    If their descendants are corrupted sufficiently enough that they are no longer considered Elves, but something entirely new, would the souls of their offspring still be elven? If it is as implied that Morgoth's corruption was enough to cause their descendants to lose their elvish immortality, would their souls still be elvish?
    I don't see why it should, Morgoth and Sauron were still Ainur/maiar respectfully even after being corrupted to the dark(even more powerful perhaps) and isn't implied they lost immortality.


    I mean, for one, it's explicitly laid out in Tolkien's lore that elven souls and mannish souls are treated differently when it comes to death: Elvish souls are bound to Arda, and reincarnated through Mandos. They are explicitly tied to the world until it's end, as decreed by Tolkien. Mannish souls are not, and it's largely believed that when they died, they were free to move "elsewhere", beyond the confines of Arda.
    Yes, that is why is a problem if orcs had elven souls, they would go to mandos, and wait to be reincarnated with then, instead of going "elsewhere' with men.

    So there's possible precedent for effectively being able to "breed out" the elvish attachment to the world
    IF, they were breed out with men, that would make sense. Either way, they would still go either way.

  14. #8954
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    "the first orcs" aren't actually orcs, the moriondor are elves that fallen to the dark, that eventually produce the first orcs, he even said himself they are his children. At least with the lore from the show. He also said He was left with his emotions so he could feel the pain or whatever, not even fully twisted, not an orc.
    So then you consider the Oathbreakers human still? They can't be undead because they are just humans corrupted by their failed oath. So then you consider Ringwraiths to be human still? They can't be <whatever> because they are just humans corrupted by the rings.

    He is an Orc. The show makes that clear. I'm not sure why you are so dead set on him not being an orc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    That is all nice and dandy but pointless since tolkien never gave an actual canonical origin of orcs.
    So then you consider the Christopher works non-canon? Interesting. I make this conclusion because his son published the origin story of orcs and made it "official". The show references that origin in the trivia of the episode 6 by adding Elves to the statement of Frodo from the books.


    Morgoth could not make real, new things of his own - he could only corrupt and twist things that already exist. Orcs are merely mockeries of elves. (Book VI, Chapter 1) Scene 32 Starts at 00:46:40


    Treebeard in The Two Towers also calls orcs corrupted elves. So it is canon, from JRR, that they were corrupted elves. He may have wanted to change it like many parts of his stories but it never was.

    'Ho, hm, well, we could, you know! You do not know, perhaps, how strong we are. Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves. We are stronger than Trolls.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2023-02-10 at 01:08 PM.
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    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    That is all nice and dandy but pointless since tolkien never gave an actual canonical origin of orcs. Even if we go by the elven origins, it is said they were twisted and mutilated, a mockery of their their past images, so they would be different yes. As for it stand the moriandor, who were the corrupted elves, were bread to give birth to orcs.

    Clearly something went wrong with Adar, like he mention, as he is pretty much an elf with some scars on his face.
    Well if we’re going with the elf origin like RoP seemingly does it could be that twisted means there souls which is why they aren’t immortal and mutilated would seemingly fit with the scars. Even Adar being a mockery could fit with his gaunt face and black blood.

    Proper orcs obviously deviate a lot more but if the idea is that the first orcs were corrupted elfs that then bred more orcs making the first still looking elvish before there children got further and further away from that seems fitting.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Well if we’re going with the elf origin like RoP seemingly does it could be that twisted means there souls which is why they aren’t immortal and mutilated would seemingly fit with the scars. Even Adar being a mockery could fit with his gaunt face and black blood.
    Adar looks exactly like any other elf in rings of power, bput with some mark on the side of his face he looks more like an elf than fucking Elrond and Belebrimbor.

    And there is no such thing of "if the soul is twisted enough they would lost immortality", tolkien never said thar, there is some records of living orcs who surpassed 150 years of age
    Proper orcs obviously deviate a lot more but if the idea is that the first orcs were corrupted elfs that then bred more orcs making the first still looking elvish before there children got further and further away from that seems fitting.
    Hence my point of saying he isn't a proper orc, but an "dark elf" who bread proper orcs ie. his children.

    From what we gather of his dialogue, he was not fully transformed, and still retain most of his elvish shenanigans

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    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Adar looks exactly like any other elf in rings of power, bput with some mark on the side of his face he looks more like an elf than fucking Elrond and Belebrimbor.

    And there is no such thing of "if the soul is twisted enough they would lost immortality", tolkien never said thar, there is some records of living orcs who surpassed 150 years of age
    Id have to go through the actor's but I don't think any elf's in Rop looked gaunt and they certainty don't have black blood like adar.

    And if the soul can't be twisted enough to lose immortality then all orc should just be immortal as there parents would still be just elf's and they would just have birth defects.

    Hence my point of saying he isn't a proper orc, but an "dark elf" who bread proper orcs ie. his children.

    From what we gather of his dialogue, he was not fully transformed, and still retain most of his elvish shenanigans
    From the Dialogue Glad calls him "the first orcs" he agrees and but say's they prefer Uruk, there are never any mentions of a transformation I can recall nor him retaining any thing from elvdom, he's called an orc and he agrees that he is one.

    as far as Tolkien goes all we got is that elves were "corrupted and enslaved" into orcs and then the race was bred, we don't have any real way of knowing if that first generation transformed visibly in any real way or if there kids just got uglier as time went own due to the corruption.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Id have to go through the actor's but I don't think any elf's in Rop looked gaunt and they certainty don't have black blood like adar
    We are talking about appearance, not innards, so yeah, he looks more elven than Celebrimbor by far.

    And if the soul can't be twisted enough to lose immortality then all orc should just be immortal as there parents would still be just elf's and they would just have birth defects.
    Yes, they would be immortal, thats why alter Tolkien changed their origin to humans instead, but died before setting things up

    From the Dialogue Glad calls him "the first orcs" he agrees and but say's they prefer Uruk, there are never any mentions of a transformation I can recall nor him retaining any thing from elvdom, he's called an orc and he agrees that he is one.
    Like i said, he can intensify himself that way, but its not what he looks like, the proper orcs were breed from those elves.

    as far as Tolkien goes all we got is that elves were "corrupted and enslaved"
    Twisted and mutilated*

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    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Adar looks exactly like any other elf in rings of power, bput with some mark on the side of his face he looks more like an elf than fucking Elrond and Belebrimbor.
    Is there a different definition for exactly you are using? He looks different from other Elves on the show and he has black blood. If he looks more like an elf then others he can't also look exactly like them. Lmao. Just give it a rest. There is no reason to keep arguing something when you are clearly wrong.
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    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    We are talking about appearance, not innards, so yeah, he looks more elven than Celebrimbor by far.
    I wouldn't say looking gaunt is very elfy, but if you do more power to you I guess.

    Like i said, he can intensify himself that way, but its not what he looks like, the proper orcs were breed from those elves.
    we Don't know what the first generation of orc looks like Tolkien didn't describe them as far as I'm aware in any of his writings all we know is that the Elves were corrupted into orcs and then Bred more and Adar falls in line with that just fine.


    Twisted and mutilated*
    I put a quote form Tolkien above, the neither the words twisted or mutilated* are used, "corrupted and enslaved" how ever are. If you have a different quote please post it.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-10 at 09:42 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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