Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

Explain to me: the goal of a company like Amazon is to make money. If this is a success it must have either made money or helped them make money. How did it do that?

By driving sign ups and retaining subscribers. The same way Netflix makes money. This topic has been discussed here before. There was a leak of Amazon information back in 2018 that gives a small glimpse of how they consider these things.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKCN1GR0FX

The documents also show that Amazon’s U.S. audience for all video programming on Prime, including films and TV shows it licenses from other companies, was about 26 million customers. Amazon has never released figures for its total audience.

I'm highlighting this part from the article because it mentions that Amazon believed their audience for all Prime Video was about 26 million customers. This was back in 2018 and the service has grown significantly since then. It really indicates how the viewership of Reacher, The Boys, and The Rings of Power is such a big deal to the service and gave Amazon a "Win".

- - - Updated - - -

@Syegfryed is pretty much right in this one, Tolkien was worried about what Orcs descending from Elves would mean for their eternal souls as they should be tied to Middle-earth. He preferred the idea of them descending from Men but never incorporated that idea as it would involve shifting the time-line around so Men awoke before the Sun rose.

To be fair what Tolkien wrote still allows for the eternal souls to not be an issue. As the Elven-Orcs can simply be a different breed. Tolkien did have Half-Orcs and Goblin-men. Not all were created by Saurman as I saw something imply that Half-Orcs existed prior to the Dunlendings going to Saruman but can't find a specific quote from the books to back that up. The First Elves could simply have their eternal souls locked away in the Halls of Mandos. Being cast into the Void or "weakening" like Sauron after his final defeat are also possible fates.

Is it something left unexplained? Certainly but even with out a re-write there are ways it can work.

- - - Updated - - -

Even if he and the show call himself an orc, it defeats and fucks over the whole premise of "showing orcs in a better light" when the fucker looks more like an elf than Celebrimbor.

Doesn't making an Orc more like an elf give it a better light by default? I think this is just a case of you not understanding something or being to lost in the argument to see it.

[jackofwind]

It is a direte quote from the movies who were taken from silmilarion, that they were twisted and mutilated, both in mind and body

Today I learned that Tolkien himself wrote screenplays for Peter Jackson.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ah yes, cause looking Gaunt and old as balls, like Celebrimbor, sure sounds elvish

Cele doesn't look Gaunt at all, Gauntness is thinness to the point of looking sick. Adar Has sunken Shallow cheeks which is a notable visual of Gauntness.

Cele might look old (id contest old as balls) but she surly isn't gaunt.

If he doesn't mention a difference in appearance, we stick with the premise that they always had this appearance after being breed/transformed, cause if there was a difference, Tolkien would have mentioned in one of his notes. He said this however: 'Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish'

Tolkien Does mention difference appearances just not around the First generation they are more or less a foot note and one he was tinkering with and never actual locked down. What we do know is that there are different breeds of orcs rather they be the Uruk-hai half orcs or the normal ones so changes in appearance with following generations wouldn't be out of no where.

and as far as Tolkien's actual description goes it's "The least lovely Mongol-types."ect, not the actual monsters we got from the Jackson movies/Rop. Adar might not fit that description depending on how you want to take it but neither do the "proper" orcs so you could argue rather still being within human looks but not "Mongol typed" is further then being a totally inhuman monster like we got.

And again, this is also parting from the premise they came from elves and not humans, which is again, a weird point to talk, since it flip-flops from show lore and tolkien lore.

it's not a flip flop of Tolkien's lore the only mention of there creation published by Tolken was them being from elves as Rhorle Mentioned in the two towers with.

'Ho, hm, well, we could, you know! You do not know, perhaps, how strong we are. Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves. We are stronger than Trolls.

It is a direte quote from the movies who were taken from Silmilarion, that they were twisted and mutilated, both in mind and body

Went ahead and found a pdf of the Silmilarion to search through, There is only one use of twisted in it and no use of mutilated. While the quote I used above where they were "corrupted and enslaved" shows up in the Silmilarion word for word so even outside of the two towers it is the settled upon origin Tolkien's son went with.

The use of twisted if curious.

But Melkor spoke to them in secret of Mortal Men, seeing how the
silence of the Valar might be twisted to evil.

Mabye you read it in a different langue where corrupted and enslaved was translated to twisted and mutilated but it's not in the English verison of the book.

- - - Updated - - -

Reading through more of the Silmarillion, I found this

And ere long the evil creatures came even to Beleriand, over passes in the
mountains, or up from the south through the dark forests. Wolves there were, or
creatures that walked in wolf-shapes, and other fell beings of shadow; and
among them were the Orcs, who afterwards wrought ruin in Beleriand: but they
were yet few and wary, and did but smell out the ways of the land, awaiting the
return of their lord. Whence they came, or what they were, the Elves knew not
then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari who had become evil and savage in the
wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said.

Which would obviously point to them still looking some what elvish and not the oatmeal monsters we got on screen.

[Syegfryed]

Today I learned that Tolkien himself wrote screenplays for Peter Jackson.

He wrote the notes on the silmarilion, that they took directly from the book and put into the movie, not the first time this ever happened, you know, rings of power straight up directly took quotes from the movie as well, but Peter jackson was not part of it.

Pretty funny coming from someone who was boasting about understanding things before, hum?

- - - Updated - - -

Cele doesn't look Gaunt at all, Gauntness is thinness to the point of looking sick. Adar Has sunken Shallow cheeks which is a notable visual of Gauntness.

Cele might look old (id contest old as balls) but she surly isn't gaunt.

Celebrimbor look like he is dying my guy

You can't possible say with a straight face he looks more elvish than Adar, just because he have a thing on his cheek.

Tolkien Does mention difference appearances just not around the First generation they are more or less a foot note and one he was tinkering with and never actual locked down. What we do know is that there are different breeds of orcs rather they be the Uruk-hai half orcs or the normal ones so changes in appearance with following generations wouldn't be out of no where.

The only differences mentioned about orcs are the subraces whitin the species, like some of then being smaller that would be called goblins or the snaga, and the ones almsot human-height and darker that lived in mordor, then the ones who were mixed with humans and other goblins.

ORcs are usually small, smaller than man, totally different from the elves who are way taller.

and as far as Tolkien's actual description goes it's "The least lovely Mongol-types."ect, not the actual monsters we got from the Jackson movies/Rop. Adar might not fit that description depending on how you want to take it but neither do the "proper" orcs so you could argue rather still being within human looks but not "Mongol typed" is further then being a totally inhuman monster like we got.

Adar doesn't even fit the proper description of the orcs within the show he is 200% different from the orcs they showed so far.

Adar is literally an elf with a charred face, he does not share any characteristics whatsoever that Tolkien mention when talk about orcs. Thats why is dumb to say "they are showing orcs in a better light" talking about Adar, when he is straight up an elf in appearance. Or for the show, a Moriondor

it's not a flip flop of Tolkien's lore the only mention of there creation published by Tolken was them being from elves as Rhorle Mentioned in the two towers with.

There is no mention in the two towers book afaik, its mentioned in the movies, because Jackson took the version that was published in the silmarilion, that was made by his son.

but its a long time since i took the books out of the boxes.

Reading through more of the Silmarillion, I found this Which would obviously point to them still looking some what elvish and not the oatmeal monsters we got on screen.

Of what they "were" suggest they were no longer somewhat elvish, and are more close to the goblin-ish traits like he describe later.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Celebrimbor look like he is dying my guy

You can't possible say with a straight face he looks more elvish than Adar, just because he have a thing on his cheek.

Do you live in a 3rd world country where people die at 40 or something? he isn't close to looking like he dying.

And Ya id say he look's more elvish then adar though mabye not by jackson's elves. Cant think of a single elf in any franchise ever that has looked gaunt.

The only differences mentioned about orcs are the subraces whitin the species, like some of then being smaller that would be called goblins or the snaga, and the big and darker ones that lived in mordor, then the ones who were mixed with humans and other goblins.

Ya that's quite a lot of Varity and there is obviously gonna be different looks within all those groups.

Adar doesn't even fit the proper description of the orcs within the show he is 200% different from the orcs they showed so far.

I mean the show describes him as an orc so he fits by default even if he might not mesh with the others.

Adar is literally an elf with a charred face, he does not share any characteristics whatsoever that Tolkien mention when talk about orcs. Thats why is dumb to say "they are showing orcs in a better light" talking about Adar, when he is straight up an elf in appearence. Or for the show, a Moriondor, who eventually breed the actual orcs.

I mean jacksons orc's don't fit what Tolkien mentioned either, Adar atleast looks like an elf who became "evil and savage" unlike what have got in the jackson moves or the other RoP orcs.

There is no mention in the two towers afaik, its mentioned in the movies, because Jackson took the version that was published in the silmarilion, that was made by his son.

I checked the two towers, that quote is in there word for word. as to yours It might be in the jackson movies I'm not gonna check those but it's not in the English Simarlion so unless you and jackson read it in a different langue he just made it up.

Of what they "were" suggest they were no longer somewhat elvish, and are more close to the monster/goblin like he describe later.

Ya no it doesn't suggest they were monster/goblin like at all, all it points to that the elves saw elvish features in them if made evil.

[rhorle]

Adar is literally an elf with a charred face, he does not share any characteristics whatsoever that Tolkien mention when talk about orcs. Thats why is dumb to say "they are showing orcs in a better light" talking about Adar, when he is straight up an elf in appearance. Or for the show, a Moriondor

Black blood is a characteristic shared with Orcs. If an elf is generally seen as "good" then showing an Orc that looks like an elf can cast Orcs in a better light. You keep defeating your own argument by highlighting how Adar looks like an elf rather then a "evil" Orc.

There is no mention in the two towers book afaik, its mentioned in the movies, because Jackson took the version that was published in the silmarilion, that was made by his son.

The quote from Treebeard is in the books. Tolkien references that scene in letter 153 from 1954.


"Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Ores. He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing. There is, to me, a wide gulf between the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's statement could (in my world) have possibly been true. It is not true actually of the Orcs – who are fundamentally a race of 'rational incarnate' creatures, though horribly corrupted, if no more so than many Men to be met today. Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came (though I do, even if exercising my subcreator's right I have thought it best in this Tale to leave the question a 'mystery', not without pointers to the solution). Suffering and experience (and possibly the Ring itself) gave Frodo more insight; and you will read in Ch. I of Book VI the words to Sam. 'The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the Orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them.' In the legends of the Elder Days it is suggested that the Diabolus subjugated and corrupted some of the earliest Elves, before they had ever heard of the 'gods', let alone of God."

[Xath]

You do know that house of dragon isn’t on the top 15 list right? How could RoP not be close to it when it apperntly did better then it according to Nielsen.

Because RoP is streaming only and many people watched House live. It also sells a service whereas people get prime for many other reasons than that show.

[Syegfryed]

Do you live in a 3rd world country where people die at 40 or something?

Waoow, thats a little xenophobe of you buddy, calm down first

he isn't close to looking like he dying.

I didn't say he is close to dying, i said he looks like that in the show, he is 53, and in the show he looks like 70

And Ya id say he look's more elvish then adar though mabye not by jackson's elves

Lmao, sure you do.

The elf that gave Galadriel the recorrds look more gaunt than Adar ever will, dude look like that guy star trek

I mean the show describes him as an orc so he fits by default even if he might not mesh with the others.

No, Galadriel says he is a Moriondor, the elves who went to the dark side, that can be considered the 'first orcs', because they breed the actual orcs, but he doesn't look like one. Thats goes into speciation and the start of a new species, a wolf is not a dog, just because dogs were breed from wolves.

I mean jacksons orc's don't fit what Tolkien mentioned either, Adar atleast looks like an elf who became "evil and savage" unlike what have got in the jackson moves or the other RoP orcs.

Jackson orcs fit more than Adar, by far.

Nowhere you see a guy like this:



And say he is "Savage" ( he doesn't even look gaunt in this pic) or imagine "yep" thats an orc"

The description of orcs are smaller than elves(with the exception of the uruk-hai that were breed with men), long arms, crooked frame, and a mouth filled with sharp teeth. Adar does not share ANY of those traits, and those are all traits we can see from the orcs in the movies.


Although the proper orcs in the show are better looking than the orcs from the movies, the only bad thing is they looking bone-white pale.

Ya no it doesn't suggest they were monster/goblin like at all, all it points to that the elves saw elvish features in them if made evil.

goblins/orcs do have elvish features, the pointy ears, thats it

IF they saw goblin-like creatures running in the wild, with pointy ears, its not absurd to believe they were elves going savage

[Xath]

No.


/10chars

Except you are literally wrong pretty much everyone I know has prime for delivery maybe a quarter use the streaming at all and most of them are watching old multi season shows Grimm and Bones for example. Much like Netflix is currently promoting that they have all gazillion series of ncis because people want mindless popcorn.

[rhorle]

Because RoP is streaming only and many people watched House live. It also sells a service whereas people get prime for many other reasons than that show.

All streaming shows are a service that people get for other reasons than a singular show. Not all subscribers come just for one show on a streaming service. It is irrelevant that Prime Video is part of the Prime package. Because it isn't a statistic based on total subscribers to the service but of those that watched the show on a streaming service.

If Nielsen released a combined list from every platforms House of the Dragon might not have been in the Top 15 anyways. As shows that are in syndication would likely top the list. Some of those shows already top the Streaming lists.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Waoow, thats a little xenophobe of you buddy, calm down first
I didn't say he is close to dying, i said he looks like that in the show, he is 53, and in the show he looks like 70

I really wonder if you have ever seen any one who's actually in there 70's.

No, Galadriel says he is a Moriondor, the elves who went to the dark side, that can be considered the 'first orcs', because they breed the actual orcs, but he doesn't look like one. Thats goes into speciation and the start of a new species, a wolf is not a dog, just because dogs were breed from wolves.

ya the show disagrees with you and describes him as a orc there is no getting around that even if he doesn't look the like others.

Galadrial: You are one of them are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.
Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."

Jackson orcs fit more than Adar, by far.

Tolkien's text disagree indicated by the quotes I've posted form the Silmarilion

goblins/orcs do have elvish features, the pointy ears, thats it

Tolkien's elves don't have pointy ears in his actual works, I recall correctly.

[rhorle]

Except you are literally wrong pretty much everyone I know has prime for delivery maybe a quarter use the streaming at all and most of them are watching old multi season shows Grimm and Bones for example. Much like Netflix is currently promoting that they have all gazillion series of ncis because people want mindless popcorn.

NCIS has been on the air for 20 seasons so far. It is tied for 5th place on longest running scripted prime time television series in the United states. If it has one more season it will beat Gunsmoke (1955-1975) and claim 5th place. Why wouldn't Netflix promote a popular series?

[Syegfryed]

I really wonder if you have ever seen any one who's actually in there 70's.

Yeah, don't try to play like that when you are the one with bad eyesight saying Celebrimbor looks more elvish than Adar.

ya the show disagrees with you and describes him as a orc there is no getting around that even if he doesn't look the like others.

So you are one of those people:

Tolkien's text disagree indicated by the quotes I've posted form the Silmarilion

tolkien texts literally had a note that says "alter this, orcs are not elvish" in The Annals of Aman

And his countless descriptions of they being smaller than men, sallow, jagged teeth, etc.

Tolkien's elves don't have pointy ears in his actual works, I recall correctly.

Then how they can look elvish, if they don't have the one and only characteristic that elves possess that humans do not that could identify then as elves? lmao

Hence more to the idea that orcs actually came from men and not elves

[rhorle]

tolkien texts literally had a note that says "alter this, orcs are not elvish" in The Annals of Aman

Right. They were not altered however so we are left with what the Author published and wrote about those published works. Tolkien wanted to re-write the entirety of the The Hobbit to change its story and tone to better for Lord of the Rings. He did not pursue that beyond a few chapters. We can't claim those few chapters as canon though because they did not happen. Just like the note in the margin.

Then how they can look elvish, if they don't have the one and only characteristic that elves possess that humans do not that could identify then as elves? lmao

So you admit you lied when you said Celebrimbor in Rings of Powers does not look elvish. As he has pointy ears and that is the only characteristic that elves possess to set them apart from non-elves, right?

- - - Updated - - -

Tolkien's elves don't have pointy ears in his actual works, I recall correctly.

Tolkien said Elven ears were more pointed and leaf like than humans. It implies pointed as they can't be "more pointed" with having something that looks like a point. Leaves are often pointed as well. It is a semantics issue because people don't like the association pointy-ears have with other depictions of Elves in fantasy.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yeah, don't try to play like that when you are the one with bad eyesight saying Celebrimbor looks more elvish than Adar.

I mean you think he's he looks like a dying man I don't think you should be talking about any one's eyesight.

So you are one of those people:

I suggest you never look up some of the more extreme birth defects/heritable genes that we have in the real world that make people look vastly out of the norm.

The idea that there can't be huge variation down generations is just silly.

tolkien texts literally had a note that says "alter this, orcs are not elvish" in The Annals of Aman

And his countless descriptions of they being smaller than men, sallow, jagged teeth, etc.

I can't find a good version of the annal's of aman like i did with the Silmarillion but from what I did find he was seemingly referring to origin not a description, he also wrote in a later chapter (Myths Transformed) "there remains a terrible possibility of an Elvish strain in orcs." which is what he put both in the twin's towers and the Silmarillion.

If you can find better quotes in full context or a good version of it then please link/quote it other wise it just sounds like his back and forth on there origin which ended in favor of elves in his actual works.

Then how they can look elvish, if they don't have the one and only characteristic that elves possess that humans do not that could identify then as elves? lmao

Hence more to the idea that orcs actually came from men and not elves

again unless I am mistaken, Tolkien never describes elves having pointed ears to a notable degree in his actual works, So it's not the only characterstic that could identify elves as it's something elves don't have, nor do orc come from men as already covered in both the two towers and the Silmarillion.

So every thing you are saying is just based off false notations while the passage in question still tells us that actual elves thought orcs could have been savage evil elves not a variation of humans and certainly not oatmeal monsters like jackson did.

- - - Updated - - -

Tolkien said Elven ears were more pointed and leaf like than humans. It implies pointed as they can't be "more pointed" with having something that looks like a point. Leaves are often pointed as well. It is a semantics issue because people don't like the association pointy-ears have with other depictions of Elves in fantasy.

I did see that referenced but not actually linked to any actual works and found other things that would dispute it like this for example.

The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them.

This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in the body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.

which obviously doesn't point towards them having pointed ears as kid's could be mistaken as either race, unless of course some one wanted to say there ear's point at 15 when thye "attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure"

but as you said I think it's just pointless semantics and the idea that the elves would be talking about the orc's just having pointy ears and that's what makes them look like "savage and evil" elves is incredibly silly.

[rhorle]

which obviously doesn't point towards them having pointed ears as kid's could be mistaken as either race, unless of course some one wanted to say there ear's point at 15 when thye "attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure"

In real life our ears are 90% finished growing by age six from what a quick google search indicates. So it is possible that Elven ears start to change at a later age. Or it simply could be longer hair obscuring differences. Turin, a human, was mistaken for an Elf at times. So even fully grown, when differences would be more apparent, they could still be confused.

At least we know hobbits had slightly pointed ears since Tolkien explicitly corrected an artists depiction. It is strange at times what details Tolkien left out despite having such a detailed work.

[Syegfryed]

I mean you think he's he looks like a dying man I don't think you should be talking about any one's eyesight.

I said he look like an old guy, saying he looks like a dying old fart is obviously an exaggeration to emphasize how ridiculous it is to make an old elf, that is supossed to be younger than Galadriel herself.

The idea that there can't be huge variation down generations is just silly.

the idea that there is that much of variation in few generations is indeed, silly. And from what we saw in the show, is ONE generation, as they are his children, strongly imply biologically.

I can't find a good version of the annal's of aman like i did with the Silmarillion but from what I did find he was seemingly referring to origin not a description, he also wrote in a later chapter (Myths Transformed) "there remains a terrible possibility of an Elvish strain in orcs." which is what he put both in the twin's towers and the Silmarillion.

Its was a note that was not published, it was found and mentioned by his son, so i at elast can't have acess to. And the idea of "then not being elvish" is also tied with their appearance, and if they are not elvish they can't look like elves either way.

That strain you mention is how one of the tolkien ideas of the origin of orcs was about mixing humans and elves.

again unless I am mistaken, Tolkien never describes elves having pointed ears to a notable degree in his actual works, So it's not the only characterstic that could identify elves as it's something elves don't have, nor do orc come from men as already covered in both the two towers and the Silmarillion.

Unless it is some sort of mandela effect, he did describe their ears being pointy, inhumanly pointy, since im pretty sure the dwarves use as pejorative.

So every thing you are saying is just based off false notations while the passage in question still tells us that actual elves thought orcs could have been savage evil elves not a variation of humans and certainly not oatmeal monsters like jackson did.

Just because they though they could come from elves, does not mean they looked like then, so pointless.

Even pointless when again, Tolkien was changing their origins to be human descendant.

[rhorle]

the idea that there is that much of variation in few generations is indeed, silly. And from what we saw in the show, is ONE generation, as they are his children, strongly imply biologically.

Calling a group "my children" does not have to mean they are your literal children. We don't know much of his backstory but we do know he has the title of "Lord Father". He could simply be a cult leader and referring to his followers or tribe/clan as his children. It is implied something happened between Adar and Sauron. Adar asks what he did to Halbrand. He asks if he killed his wife or something. There is clearly a lot more to the picture including Adar thinking he killed Sauron when he clearly did not and the story of how Halbrand got kicked out of "his kingdom".

There is nothing in the show to imply they are biologically his children or first generation after he was corrupted. Even then Gollum was twisted by the magic of the ring there is no telling what powerful "dark magic" can do to things. It is entire possible for it to twist and deform quickly.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

the idea that there is that much of variation in few generations is indeed, silly. And from what we saw in the show, is ONE generation, as they are his children, strongly imply biologically.

from a quick google, Orcs were made in the first age, Hundreds of thousands were bred, they took part in the Battle of the Lammoth which took place at the first year of the first age, the second age was 1500 years later, Suaron showed up to take command of the orcs 1000 years into the second age which would be about when Rop would be set.

it wasn't a few generations, it isn't strongly implied to be one generation.

but beyond again I get your Ignorant about this stuff but you can absolutely have that much variation in even one generation when outside forces are effecting your children there have been many cases of poulaines causes mass birth defects in children's from one waste product or another.

Its was a note that was not published, it was found and mentioned by his son, so i at elast can't have acess to. And the idea of "then not being elvish" is also tied with their appearance, and if they are not elvish they can't look like elves either way.

That strain you mention is how one of the tolkien ideas of the origin of orcs was about mixing humans and elves.

The mixed Origin from what I've found is that both elves and men were corrupted not that they were mixed together, If orcs come form both elves then some orcs would still be elvish so that would still fit with Adar.

but again, repeated in both published and unpublished works it is stated that orcs are in fact Elvish they come from elves and other elves in the settings note that they seem like elves but savage and evil.

Tolkein may have said in one note that they weren't elvish but in later notes changed again to them being elvish and in his published works both from him self and his son they are elvish.

Unless it is some sort of mandela effect, he did describe their ears being pointy, inhumanly pointy, since im pretty sure the dwarves use as pejorative.

Id say it's likely the Mandela effect just like with the "twisted and mutilated" form the jackson movies.

Just because they though they could come from elves, does not mean they looked like then, so pointless.

Even pointless when again, Tolkien was changing their origins to be human descendant.

Your right it doesn't guarantee they looked like them, it does how ever make it more likely that they looked like elves then the oatmeal orcs Jackson made.

And again he might have been going back and forth on the Origin but making them from human's is something that was never settled while them being from elves stood for both his published works and the works his son published.

[Surfd]

the idea that there is that much of variation in few generations is indeed, silly. And from what we saw in the show, is ONE generation, as they are his children, strongly imply biologically.

It may not be as silly as you think, if you accept that the orcs origins are a result of the corruption of elvish souls. Tolkien was pretty big on the concept that the nature of the fëa (soul) had a pretty big impact on the nature of the hröa (body). Elvish bodies were stronger, tougher, resistant to sickness and disease, and capable of healing from wounds that would be fatal to normal mortals because of the strength of their souls, and even Men have legends that they were "stronger" in the early ages before falling under the influence of corruption (like they may not have been immortal, but they still could live for hundreds of years, etc).

It could stand to reason then that physiological signs of having your soul corrupted could manifest pretty rapidly in future generations, especially when you are "born" with a corrupted soul.