Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Nice, but you are just forgetting that the timeline in the show is all over the place and is not right, so trying to use the timeline from the books to the movies is silly. By example, the word Uruk should not even be a thing yet, since the blackspeech is invented by Sauron later, and the word was used for the biger orcs in the third age..

Adar implies it is his children, like he is their father, biologically, so its not many generations, again, due to the timeline being compressed in the show and they changing up the lore.

even if we say we say the timeline is convoluted there is still seemingly a gap of hundreds if not thousands of years, it’s still many generations.

And again, no it’s not implied they are his directly biological kids.

Both races were corrupted and breed with each other to produce the orcs.

No, nowhere does it mention them Being bred with each other to make orcs.

And again, no, it would not, because Adar do not share any of orcs characteristics that tolkien described.

Neither do most of Jackson/Rop orcs.

that is only true because his son published silmarilion with the origin he chosed, is not Tolkien himself, by any means of canonicity, their origin is set unknown(and will stay forever unknown cause he died before finishing it) but strongly suggest human ancestry, because again, immortal orcs, and their twisted and corrupted souls going to Mando would be problematic for his universe.

you can keep trying I ignore it but Tolkien him self published there origin in the two towers. He may have wanted to change it he may have flipped flopped on that change writing in one note that they were human and then in a later one that they were from both humans and elves but the canon origin from both Tolkien and his son is that they were from elves.

It was his later notes, mind you, the "timeline" put the elven origin as the early ones, that were scraped to give place to the one that they came from men, just because he died before he finished doesn't mean isn't as vallid(or more) than the others.

the timeline places them as coming from slime, being mindless beast, being corrupted elves, being from humans, being from elves and humans, according to his unpublished notes and there chapters lay out. The latest origin before his death still invoked elves.

and again the only published origin by both him and his son has them come from elves.

I say they would look more like azog from the hobit or the ones in the show itself.

Because tolkien description of orcs is again, smaller than men(only a few rare ones could stand to men height), thus way smaller than elves, jagged teeth, crooked, long arms, etc, not of that is "elvish"(so, yeah, Jacksons orcs are more orcs than Adar).

Azog is nothing like Tolkien described, either in his Mongol like description or the one you are giving here. He is taller then an elves, his men are about the same size making him not an rare exception he has the same proportions as a man with no elongated arms. And he obviously doesn’t have dark skin. At best he might have jagged teeth.

So ya Jackson’s orcs are nothing like Tolkiens even using your go to orc and go to description.

[Fencers]

Except you are literally wrong pretty much everyone I know has prime for delivery maybe a quarter use the streaming at all and most of them are watching old multi season shows Grimm and Bones for example. Much like Netflix is currently promoting that they have all gazillion series of ncis because people want mindless popcorn.

The streaming business is not about getting people to sign up for any particular show. No platform is ever going to get over to the point where you are signing up millions of subscribers just for X show. You're providing a service of various properties you can leverage.

Who you personally know and why they do this or that is not relevant.

I am not discussing or ever have been, the quality of the show or the motivations of the consumers. This is of zero interest and concern to me- I don't care about this show one bit.

[Fencers]

Its all very tedious. And kinda sad.

Yeah, especially because they are arguing with the wind. The data was collected. People who matter to the business made their decisions weeks or months ago.

There is no developmental executive thinking about Sven's opinion on orcs and elves on a subforum while sitting on their golden toilet.

[Syegfryed]

even if we say we say the timeline is convoluted there is still seemingly a gap of hundreds if not thousands of years, it’s still many generations.

Thats you assuming that, there is nothing saying there is, and, if the orcs are indeed elven descendant, they would be immortal as well, so no there would not be that many generations.

The showrunenrs themselves said those are very early orcs, since they were pale -bone white, so they would not be that much generations.

And again, no it’s not implied they are his directly biological kids.

I mean, it does implies with his dialogue, but the dialogues were awful anyway.

No, nowhere does it mention them Being bred with each other to make orcs.

the mixed origin just say he use both human and elvish, the general concept of he breeding then with the ones corrupted still stays.

Neither do most of Jackson/Rop orcs.

Thats compltely false

Tolkien state orcs are small, croocked, sallow, fanged mouth, long arms, and the ones in the movies/show(except ADAR) fit that description. You can nitpick they not being perfectly the same, but generally they fit more than the elf

.

you can keep trying I ignore it but Tolkien him self published there origin in the two towers

He didn't, thats just unreliable narrator.

the timeline places them as coming from slime, being mindless beast, being corrupted elves, being from humans, being from elves and humans, according to his unpublished notes and there chapters lay out. The latest origin before his death still invoked elves.

Slime and heat -> elves -> animals -> mixed origin -> corrupted men.

Azog is nothing like Tolkien described, either in his Mongol like description or the one you are giving here. He is taller then an elves, his men are about the same size making him not an rare exception he has the same proportions as a man with no elongated arms. And he obviously doesn’t have dark skin. At best he might have jagged teeth.

So ya Jackson’s orcs are nothing like Tolkiens even using your go to orc and go to description.

Thats dumbshit here, him being an outlier, a rare exception doesn't mean his orcs are not accurate, Because Tolkien himself said there were a few orcs who could stand at human height.

When i said he would look more like azog or the RoP orcs is in the design, instead of the ones in the movies, a comparison between the two. .

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Thats you assuming that, there is nothing saying there is, and, if the orcs are indeed elven descendant, they would be immortal as well, so no there would not be that many generations.

The showrunenrs themselves said those are very early orcs, since they were pale -bone white, so they would not be that much generations.

I went ahead and checked, the show says the war went on for century's, as well as saying they "multiplied ever great", followed by Glad searching for Sauron for more century's.

So no it's not me assuming its hundreds of years and even if they were immortal if orcs died on mass in the war and spread on mass after it there were many new ones bred through multiple generations unless you want to say orcs breed like rats and pop out 5 kids a time.

the show also say's adar is an orc so.

I mean, it does implies with his dialogue, but the dialogues were awful anyway.

No, it doesnt.

the mixed origin just say he use both human and elvish, the general concept of he breeding then with the ones corrupted still stays.

again them breeding men and elves isn't said any where that's just something you made up.

Thats compltely false

Tolkien state orcs are small, croocked, sallow, fanged mouth, long arms, and the ones in the movies/show(except ADAR) fit that description. You can nitpick they not being perfectly the same, but generally they fit more than the elf

Ya no they don't fit the description at all even the tamest none oatmeal orcs like azog and his men don't come close.
.

He didn't, thats just unreliable narrator.

No.

Slime and heat -> elves -> animals -> mixed origin -> corrupted men.

I've already referenced the chapters of his note's and how the mixed origin is in a later chapter then corrupted men, meaning it is the newest Origin.

at this point you unless you actually back these things up I'm just gonna go with you making things up because like nothing you have posted thus far actually meshes with anything I can find from tolkins works.

Thats dumbshit here, him being an outlier, a rare exception doesn't mean his orcs are not accurate, Because Tolkien himself said there were a few orcs who could stand at human height.

When i said he would look more like azog or the RoP orcs is in the design, instead of the ones in the movies, a comparison between the two. .

I linked pictures of his men, he's not a rare exception, Nor are jackson's orcs smaller then men as we can see with Boromir's death scene.. Rop orc's are also the same size or bigger.

Jackson's orc's and the Rop Orcs do not fit the description unless your just going with where he said things like "degraded and repulsive".

[Syegfryed]

I went ahead and checked, the show says the war went on for century's, as well as saying they "multiplied ever great", followed by Glad searching for Sauron for more century's.

So no it's not me assuming its hundreds of years and even if they were immortal if orcs died on mass in the war and spread on mass after it there were many new ones bred through multiple generations unless you want to say orcs breed like rats and pop out 5 kids a time.

And if that was true, we would be more elves like adar running among then, he can't possible the last one.

Unless, of course, he just wasn't fully transformed, as he says, so he could suffer with emotions.

the show also say's adar is an orc so.

If we are going for that, it says he is a moriondor.

again them breeding men and elves isn't said any where that's just something you made up.

Its the mxied origin, that they had a elven strain, would do you think they would get this elven strain if not by brreeding? lol

he also mention how they could be minor spirits and fallen maiar.

Ya no they don't fit the description at all even the tamest none oatmeal orcs like azog and his men don't come close.

Indeed it does, and, its closer to what tolkien described, unlike Adar, which is the whole point that you are deviating.

.

I've already referenced the chapters of his note's and how the mixed origin is in a later chapter then corrupted men, meaning it is the newest Origin.

The last one was corrupted men, the elven descendant is one of the oldest ones.

I linked pictures of his men, he's not a rare exception, Nor are jackson's orcs smaller then men as we can see with Boromir's death scene.. Rop orc's are also the same size or bigger.

boromir scene ahve Uruk-hais, THAT ARE DESCRIBED BIGGER, lol.

See the snaga or by example, the ones who took Frodo after the spider attack, dude is sallow, have fangged teeth, crocked and smaller then men, almost hobbit size.

You saying the is bigger ones does not contradict shit since he himself said there are exceptions.

Jackson's orc's and the Rop Orcs do not fit the description unless your just going with where he said things like "degraded and repulsive".

They fit more than adar that is just an elf

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And if that was true, we would be more elves like adar running among then, he can't possible the last one.

Unless, of course, he just wasn't fully transformed, as he says, so he could suffer with emotions.

Ya no you assuming that doesn't make it the case at all.

If we are going for that, it says he is a moriondor.

again here's the actaul quote.

Galadrial: You are one of them are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.
Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."

Its the mxied origin, that they had a elven strain, would do you think they would get this elven strain if not by brreeding? lol

The same way they got the human one and what is described in the Silmarillion, Corrupting them.

Indeed it does, and, its closer to what tolkien described, unlike Adar, which is the whole point that you are deviating.

Nope, Tolkien Has elves say orcs look like they could be savage and evil elves, Adar is closer to that then the oatmeal monsters.

The last one was corrupted men, the elven descendant is one of the oldest ones.

Again link something to back it up because the chapter structure of his notes disagrees so I'm just gonna go with you making that up.

boromir scene ahve Uruk-hais, THAT ARE DESCRIBED BIGGER, lol.

See the snaga or by example, the ones who took Frodo after the spider attack, dude is sallow, have fangged teeth, crocked and smaller then men, almost hobbit size.

You saying the is bigger ones does not contradict shit since he himself said there are exceptions.

Your right those are Uruk-hai's.

Though Going through how jackson Depicted them there are multiple different kinds of orcs from multiple different battles that are not Uruk hai's that are also just as tall as men like like the Morannon Orcs who jackson made him self not based off Tolkien.

Only the orcs that capture Frodo after the spider are seemingly smaller then men though Id have to rewatch all the movies to actually check that for sure.

So at best Jackson ignored your description the majority of the time using it for just one or so group of orcs while all others didn't fit at all.

They fit more than adar that is just an elf

Nope.

[Syegfryed]

Ya no you assuming that doesn't make it the case at all.

Its no less of an assumption than yours, so

again here's the actaul quote.

If there is a different name for what he is, then he is not the proper orc, but a moriondor, the ones who gave origin to the actual orcs, again, wolf and dog scenario, that is my point for this entire time.

He looking exactly like an elf and NOTHING, like an orc just further confirms that.

Nope, Tolkien Has elves say orcs look like they could be savage and evil elves, Adar is closer to that then the oatmeal monsters.

Except tolkien himself said orcs are not elvish, and time and time again say they are sallow or black skinned, fanged, crooked, have long arms, etc

Nothing to do with Adar and more close to the ones in the movies and the show.

ITs extremely funny how you nitpick what tolkien words you want to use. you are grasping hard on that passage while ignoring all the rest. cause if you use BOTH, it goes against your premise

Though Going through how jackson Depicted them there are multiple different kinds of orcs from multiple different battles that are not Uruk hai's that are also just as tall as men like like the Morannon Orcs who jackson made him self not based off Tolkien. [

Only the orcs that capture Frodo after the spider are seemingly smaller then men though Id have to rewatch all the movies to actually check that for sure.

So at best Jackson ignored your description the majority of the time using it for just one or so group of orcs while all others didn't fit at all.

Nope, he didn't ignore, he just portrayed different types, that there are many.

And nope, you were wrong, Another example, The other orcs in Mordor were smaller, and Sam and Frodo were able to disguise themselves among then JUST FINE, There is smaller orcs in the mines of moria,, the ones travelling with the uruk-hai that catch the hobbits, there is the ones in goblintown from the hobbit movies, and the goblin king who is also fairly alike tolkien description being "massive".


So yes, the orcs from jackson look more like the tolkien description, and adar is just an elf

Nope.

Thats just delusional.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Its no less of an assumption than yours, so

I don't have to assume any thing the show calls him and orc displays that he has orc like features with his black blood and directly states that there were century's between the first orcs showing up and that they bred and spread throughout the land.

If there is a different name for what he is, then he is not the proper orc, but a moriondor, the ones who gave origin to the actual orcs, again, wolf and dog scenario, that is my point for this entire time.

The show disagrees and calls him an orc, there's no getting around that.

Except tolkien himself said orcs are not elvish, and time and time again say they are sallow or black skinned, fanged, crooked, have long arms, etc

Nothing to do with Adar and more close to the ones in the movies and the show.

ITs extremely funny how you nitpick what tolkien words you want to use. you are grasping hard on that passage while ignoring all the rest. cause if you use BOTH, it goes against your premise

Yes Tolkin said in his notes said they weren't elvish, in later notes he did they could come from elves, in the works he published and his son published it says they came from elves. I have even said Adar doesn't fit the black skinned long armed ect description that you have been using nor does he fit the Mongol one but neither do the majority of jacksons orcs outside of 1 Group post frodo's capture.

I am not nitpicking or ignoring any passages I have acknowledged multiple times that he went back and forth on there origin but the one he settled on in the later end of his notes, the one he published and the one his son published all make them elvish or a mix of elves and humans if you go off the note.

YOU have been nitpicking and grasping To a single note to say they aren't elvish and ignoring all other works that say they are even if those works came after the note you want to use.

Nope, he didn't ignore, he just portrayed different types, that there are many.

And nope, you were wrong, Another example, The other orcs in Mordor were smaller, and Sam and Frodo were able to disguise themselves among then JUST FINE, There is smaller orcs in the mines of moria,, the ones travelling with the uruk-hai that catch the hobbits, there is the ones in goblintown from the hobbit movies, and the goblin king who is also fairly alike tolkien description being "massive".

Same and frodo disguise them self's with the same type of orc as capture them, The mines of moria it's hard to get a good angle but some of them seem the same size as the humans both in the troll fight and when there encircled, The one's with the Uruk-hai when marry and pippin are captured are as tall as men when not crouching.

So that's just the post spider orcs and the goblin town orcs out of what's likely 20 or so groups of orcs shown, and while the goblin town one's might fit visually, Jesus was every thing there an abomination.

[Syegfryed]

The show disagrees and calls him an orc, there's no getting around that.

Show call him Moriondor. Again, wolf dog scenario, you can call a wof a dog all you want

And im not going to etertain the rest any further, cause again, is jsut nitpicking and derailing the discussion fromt he original point, that he looks exactly like an elf (even more than some of the elves in the show, and nothing like an orc, and the show/movie orcs are more close to what tolkien described than him, period.

Same and frodo disguise them self's with the same type of orc as capture them,

yes and? they disguise themselves AMONG other orcs with similar size. they even start a fight with the others.

The mines of moria it's hard to get a good angle but some of them seem the same size as the humans both in the troll fight and when there encircled

There is a few ones even smaller than men, there is close angle that show then very goblin-like(like the snaga), i think even Gandalf call then goblins, and goblins is the term in the hobbit books to describe the smaller orcs

The one's with the Uruk-hai when marry and pippin are captured are as tall as men when not crouching.

some of then are far smaller than the Uruk-hai, who had men height.

So that's just the post spider orcs and the goblin town orcs out of what's likely 20 or so groups of orcs shown, and while the goblin town one's might fit visually, Jesus was every thing there an abomination.

Point is: they look like an orc, to what tolkien described, WAY MORE than the elf called Adar., thats my point.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Show call him Moriondor. Again, wolf dog scenario, you can call a wof a dog all you want

again the full quote you are apparently allergic to.

Galadrial: You are one of them are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.
Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."

And im not going to etertain the rest any further, cause again, is jsut nitpicking and derailing the discussion fromt he original point, that he looks exactly like an elf (even more than some of the elves in the show, and nothing like an orc, and the show/movie orcs are more close to what tolkien described than him, period.[Q

It is nitpicking, its you grabbing that one word and ignoring the rest of what being said because it doesn't agree with you Just as you have nitpicked that one note about the orcs origin and ignored all later notes and what both Tolkien and his son have actually published.

yes and? they disguise themselves AMONG other orcs with similar size. they even start a fight with the others.

They fake a fight with each other not other orcs and then slip away when the task master breaks it up.

There is a few ones even smaller than men, there is close angle that show then very goblin-like(like the snaga), i think even Gandalf call then goblins, and goblins is the term in the hobbit books to describe the smaller orcs

There are one's smaller then men, But one's the same size as men are not a rare expectations like you tried to point to earlier and the majority of Jacksons (and RoP) orcs are the size of men or mabye bigger making the whole size thing pointless.

Point is: they look like an orc, to what tolkien described, WAY MORE than the elf called Adar., thats my point.

If your only going off of size sure Jackson used orcs that fit the size all of twice and used jagged tweeth, he didn't use dark skin slanted eyes or elongated arms, He also added a ton of characteristic Tolkien.

while Adar is also far from the listed characteristic he fits a evil and savage elf fine.

[Syegfryed]

again the full quote you are apparently allergic to.

Wolves are the "first dogs" too, doesn't mean wolves are actually dogs.

If he was just an normal orc, there is no fucking point to have a different term for him, and he would look different, either way, is besides the point since he does not look nothing like an orc.

They fake a fight with each other not other orcs and then slip away when the task master breaks it up.

Yes, and it is show how the other orcs around then have similar height

There are one's smaller then men, But one's the same size as men are not a rare expectation like you tried to point to earlier and the majority of Jacksons (and RoP) orcs are the size of men or mabye bigger making the whole size thing pointless.

Having ones the size of men does not contradict shit here, you know that right? - that the movies portrayed of orcs more faithful than adar who looks like an elf - the size is not pointless because bigger orcs only came to be later. just like the name Uruk, that the show make sure to mess up.

If your only going off of size sure Jackson used orcs that fit the size all of twice and used jagged tweeth, he didn't use dark skin slanted eyes or elongated arms, He also added a ton of characteristic Tolkien.

[I]"if you only going to use x" [/I... ]coming from someone who only want to use one bit that some elves though they were elves going savage that can mean fuck all and not that they look like Adar

And there is orcs with dark skin(not just the uruk-hai, orcs in mordor had black skin and were not made by saruman) and slanted eyes in the movies. Yes, he add different traits on his orcs, and he explain why, never deny that.

while Adar is also far from the listed characteristic he fits a evil and savage elf fine.

Evil? yeah, savage? not at all, and again the point is he look exactly like an elf, unlike the orcs show in the show and the movies. you are taking the quote and assuming it means they still retain ALL of their elvish characterises, when story tells they would not, see Gollun being corrupted, he was hobbit-ish but didn't look like a proper hobbit. It makes way more sense to assume Melkor, someone far stronger than the one ring, would corrupt worse than the one ring did to a hobbit, and they would not look like adar after the corruption. you can either put this as another shit they messed up like magic mithrill.

Nobody with the head in the right place can lok at him and say 'yep thats an orc, this will put orcs in a good light"

[rhorle]

Show call him Moriondor. Again, wolf dog scenario, you can call a wof a dog all you want

You are the one calling a wolf a dog. The show sets him up as an Orc. I provide the quotes earlier in the discussion for you to go back and see. You are the one that keeps trying to call him something else for whatever reason. Rings of Power invented the concept, and word, of Moriondor as it only appears in Rings of Power.

So it is silly to ignore what the show is calling him in one instance and accept it in the other.

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Nobody with the head in the right place can lok at him and say 'yep thats an orc, this will put orcs in a good light"

And yet you said he looks just like an Elf. Looking like an elf would put any dark and twisted being in a better light. We already have examples of this in Tolkien as there are shape shifters. Sauron took on a "fair visage" when he went to the elves as Annatar. Do you think he would have been received the same if he was ugly? Have you never encountered the concept of people being treated better based on their looks or clothing?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Wolves are the "first dogs" too, doesn't mean wolves are actually dogs.

If he was just an normal orc, there is no fucking point to have a different term for him, and he would look different, either way, is besides the point since he does not look nothing like an orc.

I've been ignoring the wolves are the first dogs as its just stupid and is unneeded fluff but fine lets go over it.

Wolves were not the first dogs, wolf and dogs are two distinct lines in canines with dogs coming from a now extinct line of canine as dogs genetics deviated and replaced them, The closest wolfs and dogs come generically are grey wolfs and that is not because they had the same ancestor its from domestic dogs breeding into the wolf line.

You continuously saying wolves are the first dogs is like saying lions are the first first cougar ignoring that they are two totally different lines with in the Feline family, it is also even stupider as Dogs have have such a mass variation in look size and shape that if you applied there structure to the orcs you'd be saying a great Dane isn't a dog Because it lives in a newfoundland with a bunch of newfy's and they don't look the same.

So in short, your point is stupid and ignorant and the show still disagrees with you and says he's an orc.

Having ones the size of men does not contradict shit here, you know that right? - that the movies portrayed of orcs more faithful than adar who looks like an elf - the size is not pointless because bigger orcs only came to be later. just like the name Uruk, that the show make sure to mess up.

having the majority of them being the size of men absolutely contradicts you saying ones the size of men were a "outlier, a rare exception".

[I]"if you only going to use x" [/I... ]coming from someone who only want to use one bit that some elves though they were elves going savage that can mean fuck all and not that they look like Adar

Adar fit's one mention of orcs, Jacksons fit another, Both are far from all the characteristics Tolkien used with Jacksons deviating further as Tolkien applied human features looks to his orcs even comparing them to a specific people while Jackson made them pure monsters.

Evil? yeah, savage? not at all, and again the point is he look exactly like an elf, unlike the orcs show in the show and the movies. you are taking the quote and assuming it means they still retain ALL of their elvish characterises,

Nope never said any thing about them keeping all characteristics just that they were recognizable as coming from elves, Black blood gaunt face questionable marking that could be scars or skin defects fit that even if its not perfect.

[rhorle]

Wolves were not the first dogs, wolf and dogs are two distinct lines in canines with dogs coming from a now extinct line of canine as dogs genetics deviated and replaced them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleist...e_domestic_dog

It is believed that domesticated dogs share a common wolf ancestor. That ancestor is not modern wolves but a now extinct one.

[Triceron]

Aren't wolves genetically close enough to dogs that they can actually interbreed?

[Syegfryed]

Aren't wolves genetically close enough to dogs that they can actually interbreed?

Yes, but they are different species, They came to be from the same lineage of the Pleistocene wolf

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Wolves were not the first dogs, wolf and dogs are two distinct lines in canines with dogs coming from a now extinct line of canine as dogs genetics deviated and replaced them, The closest wolfs and dogs come generically are grey wolfs and that is not because they had the same ancestor its from domestic dogs breeding into the wolf line.

I obviously tried to be as common as possible with this because general people do not have common knowledge about the palaeontologist story of the canis genre, and im not as pedant to assume everyone should know this.(despite you trying to correct me on this one, paleontologists call the line that gave birth to the today wolves and dogs aas "pleistocene wolf, so me saying wolf is not wrong).

Its just to demonstrate how you need to have a prior, and different species, to give birth to a new one, so the family tree can diverge, and it takes thousand of years of speciation to happen.

If we use this as an example, the Moridian would be the ancestors of what we know as the species of orcs, even if people call then "first orcs' they are not the race/specie orc, just like we can call "the first dogs" the ancestor of the dog(one of the pleistocene wolves lineage) but they are not, Canis familiaris.

having the majority of them being the size of men absolutely contradicts you saying ones the size of men were a "outlier, a rare exception".

Nope, because in the third age, the time the trilogy happens, we already have plenty of uruks-hais breed with humans by Sauron and Saruman and orcs who grow bigger in Mordor, this is explained by Tolkien.

Adar fit's one mention of orcs

Nope, it does not, its just you using confirmation bias and ignoring the rest of the information, using then separate instead of together as they should be. Just because the elves saw then and said "those could be elves becoming evil and savage" does not mean, in the slightest, they are not, also, sallow, crooked, fanged, smaller and with longer arms. Its literally you removing all the characteristics that make an orc an orc, and using the ones you like to say he fit ONE(being evil) and think you won the argument by "numbers of box checked".

Despite this also you being dramatically verbatim, cause, what evil LOOKS like? this is literally you assuming that when those elves saw the orcs those orcs would look exactly the same as normal elves, like Adar,, but with a mean attitude, despise using the tolkien corruption and evil as example, they would not, as example,. Gollun, definitely look like a hobbit that went evil and savage. But he is not like Sam or Frodo, at all.

Well i guess when people see the southlands they will say they look orcish because they are humans that went savage and evil

Point still stand, Adar is 100% an elf in appearance, and the orcs in the movies and in the show are more tolkien accurate than him by far.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleist...e_domestic_dog

It is believed that domesticated dogs share a common wolf ancestor. That ancestor is not modern wolves but a now extinct one.

ugh Taxonomy is a slog.

All domesticated dogs share a common ancestor, rather that Ancestor was a "wolf" is in debate, some say they fall into Canis lupus other says they don't, what is known is that based on there genes wolfs and dog's distinct lineage and what overlap they do have is likely from domesticated dogs breeding with wolfs and not from them sharing an ancestor. there are sematic arguments about rather the Paleolithic dog was a "dog "wolf" or other unnamed canine but it is accepted that dog's do not come from the same Lineage as wolfs just like say coyotes or jackals don't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_dog

[rhorle]

but it is accepted that dog's do not come from the same Lineage as wolfs just like say coyotes or jackals don't.

It isn't complicated at all. There are wolves in the lineage of domesticated dogs. From the Wikipedia article I previously linked to:

DNA sequences show that all ancient and modern dogs share a common ancestry and descended from an ancient, extinct wolf population which was distinct from the modern wolf lineage

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It isn't complicated at all. There are wolves in the lineage of domesticated dogs. From the Wikipedia article I previously linked to:

DNA sequences show that all ancient and modern dogs share a common ancestry and descended from an ancient, extinct wolf population which was distinct from the modern wolf lineage

Yes quite, as I said "there are sematic arguments about rather the Paleolithic dog was a "dog "wolf" or other unnamed canine"

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Yes, but they are different species, They came to be from the same lineage of the Pleistocene wolf


I obviously tried to be as common as possible with this because general people do not have common knowledge about the palaeontologist story of the canis genre, and im not as pedant to assume everyone should know this.(despite you trying to correct me on this one, paleontologists call the line that gave birth to the today wolves and dogs aas "pleistocene wolf, so me saying wolf is not wrong).

See above for Taxonomy nonsense

If we use this as an example, the Moridian would be the ancestors of what we know as the species of orcs, even if people call then "first orcs' they are not the race/specie orc, just like we can call "the first dogs" the ancestor of the dog(one of the pleistocene wolves lineage) but they are not, Canis familiaris.

See the above link in the Taxonomy nonsense Paleolithic dog are called Canis familiaris

Nope, because in the third age, the time the trilogy happens, we already have plenty of uruks-hais breed with humans by Sauron and Saruman and orcs who grow bigger in Mordor, this is explained by Tolkien.

unless you want to say every single orc on screen is a uruks-hais beyond the post spider group and goblin town the majority are still mansized.

Nope, it does not, its just you using confirmation bias and ignoring the rest of the information, using then separate instead of together as they should be. Just because the elves saw then and said "those could be elves becoming evil and savage" does not mean, in the slightest, they are not, also, sallow, crooked, fanged, smaller and with longer arms. Its literally you removing all the characteristics that make an orc an orc, and using the ones you like to say he fit ONE(being evil) and think you won the argument by "numbers of box checked".

Not ignoring any thing I'm applying all of Tolkins descriptions of orcs and finding both Adar and jacksons wanting as both leave out more of what Tolkien said then they include and jackson adds on new bits that Tolkien never described.