1. #8981
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Maybe after Wheel of Time I am more forgiving of Rings of Power, I think I gave WoT a 4/10 and RoP a 5/10. Despite similar issues with both shows, there was far more lasting enjoyment in RoP for me (I use the term 'enjoyment' loosely). I have no intention of watching WoT season 2, Rings of Power at least I want to give another go at season 2 because there was enough to like in the first season to at least make me curious of season 2. If season 2 really is that bad I would stop. I don't like hate watching shit. thats not fun to me. Otherwise I would have continued watching the god awful season 2 of Witcher, which I stopped at on episode 3 lol. I couldn't even rate it cos I didn't finish it :P
    If I am being fair I think I said in an early post that remove it from Tolkien I would give the show a 5/10 so agree with you there, though I might rate WoT lower than you (probably because of the last episode being so bad, the scene with Rand was just so fucking lackluster and the PS2 MAYBE PS 3 graphics really felt bad).
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  2. #8982
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    001100010010011110100001101101110011
    Posts
    22,026
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Its really not that deep of a discussion in the first place.

    The Tolkien Estate considers the books he wrote and that were published during his life as hard canon. And what they mean is that they want the reader to see them as completed works because that's ultimately what stories that Tolkien felt confident telling and releasing to the world.

    Not that his other stories aren't important, but they are ultimately incomplete and shouldn't detract from his previously published work.
    You got a link of them saying this?
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.
    Yo, don't mind my "street talk"

  3. #8983
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    21,446
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But that's my point here.

    They aren't exactly defining it.
    they have defined a pretty clear canon with the 3 LoTR novels and the hobbit just like Lucas did with his first 6 movies, even selling those rights and withholding others as they are the main canon story’s.

    Rather the Silmarillion is part of that or is it’s own canon like the EU was or rather some story’s of it are canon and other aren’t is all up what the estate has said even if I don’t know what that stance is.

    but because many people consider it to be.
    And that’s what makes this definition of canon meaningless.

    many people would likely consider what Jackson did canon many others won’t and say just the word for word novels are, many may take one story from the Silmarillion and apply it while saying other story’s don’t fit, many may say only what Tolkien wrote is canon and things added by his son aren’t, many may say that only what he published is canon and scattered notes don’t count or story’s that didn’t make it into the Silmarillion should count, and while not likely right now many may look at say shadow of modor down the line and say that should be canon because they like it.

    If you are saying Canon is what “many” want it to be then canon is every thing and nothing because there are endless groups of “many” wanting different things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    I know that, im saying they are using what is canon as an excuse
    Literally no one talking about canon is talking about RoP.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-01-26 at 07:20 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #8984
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Rather the Silmarillion is part of that or is it’s own canon like the EU was or rather some story’s of it are canon and other aren’t is all up what the estate has said even if I don’t know what that stance is.
    But that isn't a definitive answer either. There isn't one.

    If some experts decide to consider Silmarillion part of the Hobbit and LOTR canon, would they be wrong to do so? Because you happen to see it part of its own canon? I mean, what we're all boiling down to is a series of fan-driven regard for canon. It's a 'I don't know' situation, where it's literally individuals having different regard of what the 'official continuity' really consists of. It's ultimately up to the fans to decide for themselves what the 'some stories' are canon or not means to them, if the authoritative source isn't clearly defining those lines.

    If you are saying Canon is what “many” want it to be then canon is every thing and nothing because there are endless groups of “many” wanting different things.
    That's the point. Canon is not definitive if the authoritative source is not clearly defining the lines, and even then the authoritative source may not always be correct in certain circumstances. Han shot first is a very clear example of something that is technically canon, but not always recognized as being so within the same fandom. Like, it can legitimately be rejected as being canon due to the way the movie continuity works.

    Cuz all I can say is the explanation that Silmarillion could be an EU and in its own canon, is itself a fan-derived conclusion that you're presenting here. If that is one point that you are arguing, then you're expressing your interpretation as a fan. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say the canon is in the hands of the fanbase; we aren't talking about you as a fan singularly defining what is canon, rather we are regarding that you are expressing your viewpoint in how the canon is defined and it is just as acceptable as someone else believing the Silmarillion to be absolutely canonical to the other books. There is no singular definition in this case.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-01-26 at 08:43 PM.

  5. #8985
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    21,446
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If some experts decide to consider Silmarillion part of the Hobbit and LOTR canon, would they be wrong to do so?
    If the estate said other wise, Yes. If they aren't saying its canon then only what they say (Lotr-hobbit) Is canon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Post I was going to reply to was delated, but from a quick google It sound's like the Silmarillion was never considered canon to the published works or even parts of it self By his son or at best was "all of it's cannon, not all of it's true" like 40k as far as Tolkien him self was considered.

    I set myself therefore to work out a single text, selecting and arranging in such a
    way as seemed to me to produce the most coherent and internally self-consistent
    narrative. In this work the concluding chapters (from the death of Túrin
    Turambar) introduced peculiar difficulties, in that they had remained unchanged
    for many years, and were in some respects in serious disharmony with more
    developed conceptions in other parts of the book.
    A complete consistency (either within the compass of The Silmarillion itself
    or between The Silmarillion and other published writings of my father’s) is not
    to be looked for, and could only be achieved, if at all, at heavy and needless cost.
    my father come to conceive The Silmarillion as a compilation, a
    compendious narrative, made long afterwards from sources of great diversity
    (poems, and annals, and oral tales) that had survived in agelong tradition;
    and
    this conception has indeed its parallel in the actual history of the book, for a
    great deal of earlier prose and poetry does underlie it, and it is to some extent a
    compendium in fact and not only in theory.
    I'm sure some one who cares more about the works then me would be able to find further info about rather this view changed or not.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-01-26 at 09:26 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #8986
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    If the estate said other wise, Yes. If they aren't saying its canon then only what they say (Lotr-hobbit) Is canon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Post I was going to reply to was delated, but from a quick google It sound's like the Silmarillion was never considered canon to the published works or even parts of it self By his son or at best was "all of it's cannon, not all of it's true" like 40k as far as Tolkien him self was considered.


    I'm sure some one who cares more about the works then me would be able to find further info about rather this view changed or not.
    What I find wonderful about Tolkien's works is that in the space of a lifetime he provided a snapshot of myths, stories and histories that entire civilisations can take centuries to produce. I do like the idea that all of his published works - and even official adaptations - can be seen as distortions of a "true" history told by one of the peoples of Middle-earth. The Peter Jackson movies for example could be seen as the LotR story as told by warriors like the Rohirrim which is why they concentrate more on the action, ignore the doings of the small people in the Shire and reduce Aragorn to a reluctant king so as not to overshadow Eomer.

    After the Silmarillion Christopher Tolkien released 12 other volumes collectively known as the History of Middle-earth (HoMe or HoM-e to fans.) Rather than trying to map the fictional history of Tolkien's lands they explore how JRR started with tales more fairy-story like and developed them into something that resembles more of a "true" history. This is where the role of Sauron is played by the Prince of Cats in the tale of Beren and Luthien (later replaced by a werewolf who then became Sauron in the form of a werewolf) and it's easy to imagine that some race of Men half-remembered the "true" history and filled the gaps in their memory with more fanciful characters.

  7. #8987
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Post I was going to reply to was delated, but from a quick google It sound's like the Silmarillion was never considered canon to the published works or even parts of it self By his son or at best was "all of it's cannon, not all of it's true" like 40k as far as Tolkien him self was considered.
    I deleted because I found myself arguing points that I didn't have a strong belief of.

    Ultimately, the Legendarium not really considered a part of the canon (story continuity) but regarded as Mythology that exists in the universe. Canon would be more of a definition for story continuity, and it seems that what I find is most people would regard the Silmarillion as a collection of 'Legends and tales' that exist, not all of which are true. So in this way, I agree that it's both non-canon in terms of not being considered a direct part of the Hobbit and LOTR story continuity, but also is canon in terms of being 'Legends and tales' that could have existed in Middle Earth.

    I'd say that this is an interesting discussion on 'what is canon' nonetheless.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-01-26 at 11:09 PM.

  8. #8988
    Titan
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    America's Hat
    Posts
    14,000
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    If I am being fair I think I said in an early post that remove it from Tolkien I would give the show a 5/10 so agree with you there, though I might rate WoT lower than you (probably because of the last episode being so bad, the scene with Rand was just so fucking lackluster and the PS2 MAYBE PS 3 graphics really felt bad).
    WoT was such an embarrassing abortion that Amazon would be better off just dropping it entirely if they aren't going to replace the writers and showrunner. Rafe is a hack and so are the people working under him. I honestly want someone to just do an animation of WoT, none of this live action bullshit.

    I do agree that RoP wouldn't be as ass if it didn't try to use Tolkien's legacy as a crutch, but it is still overall a low quality show as far as the narrative is concerned, not to mention a lot of the character writing is just not very good. Using Tolkien's world and characters just makes it so much worse. It's a 5/10 if it wasn't set in Middle Earth, it's a 3/10 because it is. WoT is invariably worse because in one whole season they managed to fuck up every single facet of the main characters stories.

  9. #8989
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    WoT was such an embarrassing abortion that Amazon would be better off just dropping it entirely if they aren't going to replace the writers and showrunner. Rafe is a hack and so are the people working under him. I honestly want someone to just do an animation of WoT, none of this live action bullshit.

    I do agree that RoP wouldn't be as ass if it didn't try to use Tolkien's legacy as a crutch, but it is still overall a low quality show as far as the narrative is concerned, not to mention a lot of the character writing is just not very good. Using Tolkien's world and characters just makes it so much worse. It's a 5/10 if it wasn't set in Middle Earth, it's a 3/10 because it is. WoT is invariably worse because in one whole season they managed to fuck up every single facet of the main characters stories.
    Pretty much how I feel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  10. #8990
    This show did great numbers. One of only 2 original works not produced by Netflix that was in the top 15 streamed shows.

    That's terrific performance to just crack the Netflix wall

  11. #8991
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    This show did great numbers. One of only 2 original works not produced by Netflix that was in the top 15 streamed shows.

    That's terrific performance to just crack the Netflix wall
    Except that none of the netflix shows had the brand power of lotr behind them lol. This show was a fucking joke.

  12. #8992
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    This show did great numbers. One of only 2 original works not produced by Netflix that was in the top 15 streamed shows.

    That's terrific performance to just crack the Netflix wall
    I'm can't say I'm surprised at the fact it did great numbers. Also not surprised over the fact the first reply is someone just saying the series "was a fucking joke" as some sort of retort. Much of the hatred remains irrational, but hey, at least the show was successful!

  13. #8993
    Fir what it was, "Velma" did great numbers too.

  14. #8994
    Titan Orby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Under the stars
    Posts
    12,484
    despite my overall 'meh' feeling about the show I am still excited to see what Season 2 brings... More Elrond/Durin/Disa road trip please, its the only thing I like about this show (except for the visuals and set design and soundtrack those are great too) XD

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Fir what it was, "Velma" did great numbers too.
    only difference is Velma isnt liked by anyone, some people did actually like Rings of Power (shocking I know), at least the ratings reflect it to be a very 'meh - good' show. Depending on which site you are on.

    Rotten Tomatoes: 83% - 38%
    IMDB: 6.9/10
    Amazon: 3.2/5
    Metacritic: 71 - 2.5

    While it may be a big dumpster fire to some and while I do share some sentiment to that, its overall a very divisive show regardless.
    Last edited by Orby; 2023-01-30 at 01:47 PM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  15. #8995
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Fir what it was, "Velma" did great numbers too.
    Nah velma faked the numbers... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i06_u5XTjw

  16. #8996
    I don't think anyone is surprised it pulled numbers. It's what everyone expected it to do.
    Error 404 - Signature not found

  17. #8997
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Except that none of the netflix shows had the brand power of lotr behind them lol. This show was a fucking joke.
    So? That's great for them. The LOTR brand is what made this an attractive project to fund and made it successful as it was positioned.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I'm can't say I'm surprised at the fact it did great numbers. Also not surprised over the fact the first reply is someone just saying the series "was a fucking joke" as some sort of retort. Much of the hatred remains irrational, but hey, at least the show was successful!
    I only watched the first 2 episodes but I don't really dig this genre. So I stopped watching. I do not care about LOTR at all or the quality of this show.

    It was simply a successful show for the company.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoodzilla View Post
    Nah velma faked the numbers... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i06_u5XTjw
    This is extremely unlikely.

  18. #8998
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    only difference is Velma isnt liked by anyone, some people did actually like Rings of Power (shocking I know), at least the ratings reflect it to be a very 'meh - good' show. Depending on which site you are on.

    Rotten Tomatoes: 83% - 38%
    IMDB: 6.9/10
    Amazon: 3.2/5
    Metacritic: 71 - 2.5

    While it may be a big dumpster fire to some and while I do share some sentiment to that, its overall a very divisive show regardless.
    Tbf, IMDB is owed by Amazon so two of those have a strong bias.

    But regardless I agree. RoP is deeply flawed but definitely isn't a 1/10. It also didn't deserve the praise it got from some critics as being "refreshing". So indeed, I think divisive is a great way to put it.

  19. #8999
    Titan
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    America's Hat
    Posts
    14,000
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    This show did great numbers. One of only 2 original works not produced by Netflix that was in the top 15 streamed shows.

    That's terrific performance to just crack the Netflix wall
    RoP cost Amazon a billion dollars. The fact that with a budget of more than Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy combined, the first season was a massive failure for views. And that should be embarrassing enough to Bezos to can the people involved in making that shoddy first season. Guess what? He didn't intervene and continues to allow Jennifer Salke to do whatever the fuck she wants when it comes to who she hires to run their shows and we wind up with a couple of literal nobodies for season one of RoP and that was the result. So now she's replacing them with a couple of women who one of was involved in Rafe of Time which was trash too. So daddy Bezos can enjoy another few hundred million being pissed down the drain on season two of this colossal dumpster fire of a show.

    And don't take me ripping on this show as me hating it for the sake of hating it. I legitimately want something good set in Tolkien's world, even if it isn't something he explicitly fleshed out himself. Because I love his work and his universe, but it deserves to be respected and that is not what the creators are doing by any stretch. I'd rather see something awful fail than tread on the legacy of a great writer.
    Last edited by Rennadrel; 2023-01-31 at 02:10 AM.

  20. #9000
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    17,517
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    RoP cost Amazon a billion dollars.
    To be fair it cost them $250 million for the rights. The first season was $450 million. That is 300 million short of a billion for the combined cost. The first season wasn't a massive failure for views. What metric are you using to get to that point? You say you are not hating on the show just for the sake of it while creating statistics out of your own mind. Strange, right? Also Jackson didn't have to buy the rights because he was working with companies that had already acquired them previously. So any cost comparison should only be the $450 season 1 budget until the costs of more seasons are known.

    It is also silly to talk about nobodies when that was the same type of risk that Mr. Jackson was facing. While he wasn't a nobody he only had one big budget film prior to doing Lord of the Rings. That film was also seen as a box office failure (The Frighteners). His King Kong remake was shelved so it didn't get added to his filmography until after LotR. So Amazon going with non-famous people isn't really a big deal. It's not like the famous and well known show runners, directors, and what not don't have their share of hate as well. Mr. Jackson was involved in a few bad movies since Lord of the Rings.

    It is amusing that the estate thought Mr. Jackson didn't respect the work of the author yet you and others praise him so highly. Who is wrong in their opinion? The Estate (the son) or a random fan online? This is why things like respect the work mean very little because it is always about what you personally liked and did not like.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •