1. #8981
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    which obviously doesn't point towards them having pointed ears as kid's could be mistaken as either race, unless of course some one wanted to say there ear's point at 15 when thye "attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure"
    In real life our ears are 90% finished growing by age six from what a quick google search indicates. So it is possible that Elven ears start to change at a later age. Or it simply could be longer hair obscuring differences. Turin, a human, was mistaken for an Elf at times. So even fully grown, when differences would be more apparent, they could still be confused.

    At least we know hobbits had slightly pointed ears since Tolkien explicitly corrected an artists depiction. It is strange at times what details Tolkien left out despite having such a detailed work.
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    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I mean you think he's he looks like a dying man I don't think you should be talking about any one's eyesight.
    I said he look like an old guy, saying he looks like a dying old fart is obviously an exaggeration to emphasize how ridiculous it is to make an old elf, that is supossed to be younger than Galadriel herself.

    The idea that there can't be huge variation down generations is just silly.
    the idea that there is that much of variation in few generations is indeed, silly. And from what we saw in the show, is ONE generation, as they are his children, strongly imply biologically.

    I can't find a good version of the annal's of aman like i did with the Silmarillion but from what I did find he was seemingly referring to origin not a description, he also wrote in a later chapter (Myths Transformed) "there remains a terrible possibility of an Elvish strain in orcs." which is what he put both in the twin's towers and the Silmarillion.
    Its was a note that was not published, it was found and mentioned by his son, so i at elast can't have acess to. And the idea of "then not being elvish" is also tied with their appearance, and if they are not elvish they can't look like elves either way.

    That strain you mention is how one of the tolkien ideas of the origin of orcs was about mixing humans and elves.


    again unless I am mistaken, Tolkien never describes elves having pointed ears to a notable degree in his actual works, So it's not the only characterstic that could identify elves as it's something elves don't have, nor do orc come from men as already covered in both the two towers and the Silmarillion.
    Unless it is some sort of mandela effect, he did describe their ears being pointy, inhumanly pointy, since im pretty sure the dwarves use as pejorative.

    So every thing you are saying is just based off false notations while the passage in question still tells us that actual elves thought orcs could have been savage evil elves not a variation of humans and certainly not oatmeal monsters like jackson did.
    Just because they though they could come from elves, does not mean they looked like then, so pointless.

    Even pointless when again, Tolkien was changing their origins to be human descendant.

  3. #8983
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the idea that there is that much of variation in few generations is indeed, silly. And from what we saw in the show, is ONE generation, as they are his children, strongly imply biologically.
    Calling a group "my children" does not have to mean they are your literal children. We don't know much of his backstory but we do know he has the title of "Lord Father". He could simply be a cult leader and referring to his followers or tribe/clan as his children. It is implied something happened between Adar and Sauron. Adar asks what he did to Halbrand. He asks if he killed his wife or something. There is clearly a lot more to the picture including Adar thinking he killed Sauron when he clearly did not and the story of how Halbrand got kicked out of "his kingdom".

    There is nothing in the show to imply they are biologically his children or first generation after he was corrupted. Even then Gollum was twisted by the magic of the ring there is no telling what powerful "dark magic" can do to things. It is entire possible for it to twist and deform quickly.
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  4. #8984
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the idea that there is that much of variation in few generations is indeed, silly. And from what we saw in the show, is ONE generation, as they are his children, strongly imply biologically.
    from a quick google, Orcs were made in the first age, Hundreds of thousands were bred, they took part in the Battle of the Lammoth which took place at the first year of the first age, the second age was 1500 years later, Suaron showed up to take command of the orcs 1000 years into the second age which would be about when Rop would be set.

    it wasn't a few generations, it isn't strongly implied to be one generation.

    but beyond again I get your Ignorant about this stuff but you can absolutely have that much variation in even one generation when outside forces are effecting your children there have been many cases of poulaines causes mass birth defects in children's from one waste product or another.



    Its was a note that was not published, it was found and mentioned by his son, so i at elast can't have acess to. And the idea of "then not being elvish" is also tied with their appearance, and if they are not elvish they can't look like elves either way.

    That strain you mention is how one of the tolkien ideas of the origin of orcs was about mixing humans and elves.
    The mixed Origin from what I've found is that both elves and men were corrupted not that they were mixed together, If orcs come form both elves then some orcs would still be elvish so that would still fit with Adar.

    but again, repeated in both published and unpublished works it is stated that orcs are in fact Elvish they come from elves and other elves in the settings note that they seem like elves but savage and evil.

    Tolkein may have said in one note that they weren't elvish but in later notes changed again to them being elvish and in his published works both from him self and his son they are elvish.

    Unless it is some sort of mandela effect, he did describe their ears being pointy, inhumanly pointy, since im pretty sure the dwarves use as pejorative.
    Id say it's likely the Mandela effect just like with the "twisted and mutilated" form the jackson movies.


    Just because they though they could come from elves, does not mean they looked like then, so pointless.

    Even pointless when again, Tolkien was changing their origins to be human descendant.
    Your right it doesn't guarantee they looked like them, it does how ever make it more likely that they looked like elves then the oatmeal orcs Jackson made.

    And again he might have been going back and forth on the Origin but making them from human's is something that was never settled while them being from elves stood for both his published works and the works his son published.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-11 at 05:42 AM.
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  5. #8985
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the idea that there is that much of variation in few generations is indeed, silly. And from what we saw in the show, is ONE generation, as they are his children, strongly imply biologically.
    It may not be as silly as you think, if you accept that the orcs origins are a result of the corruption of elvish souls. Tolkien was pretty big on the concept that the nature of the fëa (soul) had a pretty big impact on the nature of the hröa (body). Elvish bodies were stronger, tougher, resistant to sickness and disease, and capable of healing from wounds that would be fatal to normal mortals because of the strength of their souls, and even Men have legends that they were "stronger" in the early ages before falling under the influence of corruption (like they may not have been immortal, but they still could live for hundreds of years, etc).

    It could stand to reason then that physiological signs of having your soul corrupted could manifest pretty rapidly in future generations, especially when you are "born" with a corrupted soul.

  6. #8986
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    it wasn't a few generations, it isn't strongly implied to be one generation.
    Nice, but you are just forgetting that the timeline in the show is all over the place and is not right, so trying to use the timeline from the books to the movies is silly. By example, the word Uruk should not even be a thing yet, since the blackspeech is invented by Sauron later, and the word was used for the biger orcs in the third age..

    Adar implies it is his children, like he is their father, biologically, so its not many generations, again, due to the timeline being compressed in the show and they changing up the lore.

    The mixed Origin from what I've found is that both elves and men were corrupted not that they were mixed together, If orcs come form both elves then some orcs would still be elvish so that would still fit with Adar.
    Both races were corrupted and breed with each other to produce the orcs.

    And again, no, it would not, because Adar do not share any of orcs characteristics that tolkien described.

    but again, repeated in both published and unpublished works it is stated that orcs are in fact Elvish they come from elves and other elves in the settings note that they seem like elves but savage and evil.
    that is only true because his son published silmarilion with the origin he chosed, is not Tolkien himself, by any means of canonicity, their origin is set unknown(and will stay forever unknown cause he died before finishing it) but strongly suggest human ancestry, because again, immortal orcs, and their twisted and corrupted souls going to Mando would be problematic for his universe.

    Tolkein may have said in one note that they weren't elvish but in later notes changed again to them being elvish and in his published works both from him self and his son they are elvish.
    It was his later notes, mind you, the "timeline" put the elven origin as the early ones, that were scraped to give place to the one that they came from men, just because he died before he finished doesn't mean isn't as vallid(or more) than the others.
    Your right it doesn't guarantee they looked like them, it does how ever make it more likely that they looked like elves then the oatmeal orcs Jackson made.
    I say they would look more like azog from the hobit or the ones in the show itself.

    Because tolkien description of orcs is again, smaller than men(only a few rare ones could stand to men height), thus way smaller than elves, jagged teeth, crooked, long arms, etc, not of that is "elvish"(so, yeah, Jacksons orcs are more orcs than Adar).

    Is like looking at Gollum and saying "well this looks like hobit-ish that went to the dark and became savage, eating raw fish and living like an animal"(because he was) and Gollum is monstrous compared to a normal hobbit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    It could stand to reason then that physiological signs of having your soul corrupted could manifest pretty rapidly in future generations, especially when you are "born" with a corrupted soul.
    The effects of the corruption would be show in their own bodies if that would be the case, see Gollum and how he changed after being corrupted. And they got Corrupted by Morgoth itself, not lowly ring. you know, the guy who made trolls and dragons.

    The idea of they being corrupted and nothing changing just some marks on his face is nonsense.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2023-02-11 at 07:35 AM.

  7. #8987
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    Explain to me: the goal of a company like Amazon is to make money. If this is a success it must have either made money or helped them make money. How did it do that?
    Oh ffs, stop rehashing the same discussion with other people.
    @Fencers has clearly described how they can or possibly have already made money with the results already achieved.

    How they did or if they did is known only to someone privy to the economics of Amazon Studios, so, don't ask people for their speculation, just to dismiss it as lies with your "objective truths".
    /spit@Blizzard

  8. #8988
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Well, maybe Amazon is not going to the Disney+ path, i heard they lost quite a few subscribers

  9. #8989
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    Fencers has not said that. He (or she) has claimed that they did but not said how. Most of his/her posts are about how they got great numbers, but nothing to address how they could have made money on a product they gave away for free. Stop misrepresenting someone else's posts.

    I also would never use "objective" either, you're misrepresenting my posts too.

    So uh, nothing about your post above is remotely accurate. Wanna try again?
    No. /10char
    /spit@Blizzard

  10. #8990
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Nice, but you are just forgetting that the timeline in the show is all over the place and is not right, so trying to use the timeline from the books to the movies is silly. By example, the word Uruk should not even be a thing yet, since the blackspeech is invented by Sauron later, and the word was used for the biger orcs in the third age..

    Adar implies it is his children, like he is their father, biologically, so its not many generations, again, due to the timeline being compressed in the show and they changing up the lore.
    even if we say we say the timeline is convoluted there is still seemingly a gap of hundreds if not thousands of years, it’s still many generations.

    And again, no it’s not implied they are his directly biological kids.



    Both races were corrupted and breed with each other to produce the orcs.
    No, nowhere does it mention them Being bred with each other to make orcs.

    And again, no, it would not, because Adar do not share any of orcs characteristics that tolkien described.
    Neither do most of Jackson/Rop orcs.


    that is only true because his son published silmarilion with the origin he chosed, is not Tolkien himself, by any means of canonicity, their origin is set unknown(and will stay forever unknown cause he died before finishing it) but strongly suggest human ancestry, because again, immortal orcs, and their twisted and corrupted souls going to Mando would be problematic for his universe.
    you can keep trying I ignore it but Tolkien him self published there origin in the two towers. He may have wanted to change it he may have flipped flopped on that change writing in one note that they were human and then in a later one that they were from both humans and elves but the canon origin from both Tolkien and his son is that they were from elves.



    It was his later notes, mind you, the "timeline" put the elven origin as the early ones, that were scraped to give place to the one that they came from men, just because he died before he finished doesn't mean isn't as vallid(or more) than the others.
    the timeline places them as coming from slime, being mindless beast, being corrupted elves, being from humans, being from elves and humans, according to his unpublished notes and there chapters lay out. The latest origin before his death still invoked elves.

    and again the only published origin by both him and his son has them come from elves.


    I say they would look more like azog from the hobit or the ones in the show itself.

    Because tolkien description of orcs is again, smaller than men(only a few rare ones could stand to men height), thus way smaller than elves, jagged teeth, crooked, long arms, etc, not of that is "elvish"(so, yeah, Jacksons orcs are more orcs than Adar).
    Azog is nothing like Tolkien described, either in his Mongol like description or the one you are giving here. He is taller then an elves, his men are about the same size making him not an rare exception he has the same proportions as a man with no elongated arms. And he obviously doesn’t have dark skin. At best he might have jagged teeth.

    So ya Jackson’s orcs are nothing like Tolkiens even using your go to orc and go to description.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-11 at 05:00 PM.
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  11. #8991
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Except you are literally wrong pretty much everyone I know has prime for delivery maybe a quarter use the streaming at all and most of them are watching old multi season shows Grimm and Bones for example. Much like Netflix is currently promoting that they have all gazillion series of ncis because people want mindless popcorn.
    The streaming business is not about getting people to sign up for any particular show. No platform is ever going to get over to the point where you are signing up millions of subscribers just for X show. You're providing a service of various properties you can leverage.

    Who you personally know and why they do this or that is not relevant.

    I am not discussing or ever have been, the quality of the show or the motivations of the consumers. This is of zero interest and concern to me- I don't care about this show one bit.

  12. #8992
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Its all very tedious. And kinda sad.
    Yeah, especially because they are arguing with the wind. The data was collected. People who matter to the business made their decisions weeks or months ago.

    There is no developmental executive thinking about Sven's opinion on orcs and elves on a subforum while sitting on their golden toilet.

  13. #8993
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    even if we say we say the timeline is convoluted there is still seemingly a gap of hundreds if not thousands of years, it’s still many generations.
    Thats you assuming that, there is nothing saying there is, and, if the orcs are indeed elven descendant, they would be immortal as well, so no there would not be that many generations.

    The showrunenrs themselves said those are very early orcs, since they were pale -bone white, so they would not be that much generations.

    And again, no it’s not implied they are his directly biological kids.
    I mean, it does implies with his dialogue, but the dialogues were awful anyway.

    No, nowhere does it mention them Being bred with each other to make orcs.
    the mixed origin just say he use both human and elvish, the general concept of he breeding then with the ones corrupted still stays.
    Neither do most of Jackson/Rop orcs.
    Thats compltely false

    Tolkien state orcs are small, croocked, sallow, fanged mouth, long arms, and the ones in the movies/show(except ADAR) fit that description. You can nitpick they not being perfectly the same, but generally they fit more than the elf

    .
    you can keep trying I ignore it but Tolkien him self published there origin in the two towers
    He didn't, thats just unreliable narrator.

    the timeline places them as coming from slime, being mindless beast, being corrupted elves, being from humans, being from elves and humans, according to his unpublished notes and there chapters lay out. The latest origin before his death still invoked elves.
    Slime and heat -> elves -> animals -> mixed origin -> corrupted men.


    Azog is nothing like Tolkien described, either in his Mongol like description or the one you are giving here. He is taller then an elves, his men are about the same size making him not an rare exception he has the same proportions as a man with no elongated arms. And he obviously doesn’t have dark skin. At best he might have jagged teeth.

    So ya Jackson’s orcs are nothing like Tolkiens even using your go to orc and go to description.
    Thats dumbshit here, him being an outlier, a rare exception doesn't mean his orcs are not accurate, Because Tolkien himself said there were a few orcs who could stand at human height.

    When i said he would look more like azog or the RoP orcs is in the design, instead of the ones in the movies, a comparison between the two. .

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    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Thats you assuming that, there is nothing saying there is, and, if the orcs are indeed elven descendant, they would be immortal as well, so no there would not be that many generations.

    The showrunenrs themselves said those are very early orcs, since they were pale -bone white, so they would not be that much generations.
    I went ahead and checked, the show says the war went on for century's, as well as saying they "multiplied ever great", followed by Glad searching for Sauron for more century's.

    So no it's not me assuming its hundreds of years and even if they were immortal if orcs died on mass in the war and spread on mass after it there were many new ones bred through multiple generations unless you want to say orcs breed like rats and pop out 5 kids a time.

    the show also say's adar is an orc so.

    I mean, it does implies with his dialogue, but the dialogues were awful anyway.
    No, it doesnt.

    the mixed origin just say he use both human and elvish, the general concept of he breeding then with the ones corrupted still stays.
    again them breeding men and elves isn't said any where that's just something you made up.

    Thats compltely false

    Tolkien state orcs are small, croocked, sallow, fanged mouth, long arms, and the ones in the movies/show(except ADAR) fit that description. You can nitpick they not being perfectly the same, but generally they fit more than the elf
    Ya no they don't fit the description at all even the tamest none oatmeal orcs like azog and his men don't come close.
    .

    He didn't, thats just unreliable narrator.
    No.


    Slime and heat -> elves -> animals -> mixed origin -> corrupted men.
    I've already referenced the chapters of his note's and how the mixed origin is in a later chapter then corrupted men, meaning it is the newest Origin.

    at this point you unless you actually back these things up I'm just gonna go with you making things up because like nothing you have posted thus far actually meshes with anything I can find from tolkins works.

    Thats dumbshit here, him being an outlier, a rare exception doesn't mean his orcs are not accurate, Because Tolkien himself said there were a few orcs who could stand at human height.

    When i said he would look more like azog or the RoP orcs is in the design, instead of the ones in the movies, a comparison between the two. .
    I linked pictures of his men, he's not a rare exception, Nor are jackson's orcs smaller then men as we can see with Boromir's death scene.. Rop orc's are also the same size or bigger.

    Jackson's orc's and the Rop Orcs do not fit the description unless your just going with where he said things like "degraded and repulsive".
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-11 at 09:25 PM.
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  15. #8995
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I went ahead and checked, the show says the war went on for century's, as well as saying they "multiplied ever great", followed by Glad searching for Sauron for more century's.

    So no it's not me assuming its hundreds of years and even if they were immortal if orcs died on mass in the war and spread on mass after it there were many new ones bred through multiple generations unless you want to say orcs breed like rats and pop out 5 kids a time.
    And if that was true, we would be more elves like adar running among then, he can't possible the last one.

    Unless, of course, he just wasn't fully transformed, as he says, so he could suffer with emotions.
    the show also say's adar is an orc so.
    If we are going for that, it says he is a moriondor.

    again them breeding men and elves isn't said any where that's just something you made up.
    Its the mxied origin, that they had a elven strain, would do you think they would get this elven strain if not by brreeding? lol

    he also mention how they could be minor spirits and fallen maiar.
    Ya no they don't fit the description at all even the tamest none oatmeal orcs like azog and his men don't come close.
    Indeed it does, and, its closer to what tolkien described, unlike Adar, which is the whole point that you are deviating.

    .

    I've already referenced the chapters of his note's and how the mixed origin is in a later chapter then corrupted men, meaning it is the newest Origin.
    The last one was corrupted men, the elven descendant is one of the oldest ones.
    I linked pictures of his men, he's not a rare exception, Nor are jackson's orcs smaller then men as we can see with Boromir's death scene.. Rop orc's are also the same size or bigger.
    boromir scene ahve Uruk-hais, THAT ARE DESCRIBED BIGGER, lol.

    See the snaga or by example, the ones who took Frodo after the spider attack, dude is sallow, have fangged teeth, crocked and smaller then men, almost hobbit size.

    You saying the is bigger ones does not contradict shit since he himself said there are exceptions.

    Jackson's orc's and the Rop Orcs do not fit the description unless your just going with where he said things like "degraded and repulsive".
    They fit more than adar that is just an elf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    And if that was true, we would be more elves like adar running among then, he can't possible the last one.

    Unless, of course, he just wasn't fully transformed, as he says, so he could suffer with emotions.
    Ya no you assuming that doesn't make it the case at all.


    If we are going for that, it says he is a moriondor.
    again here's the actaul quote.

    Galadrial: You are one of them are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.
    Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."


    Its the mxied origin, that they had a elven strain, would do you think they would get this elven strain if not by brreeding? lol
    The same way they got the human one and what is described in the Silmarillion, Corrupting them.



    Indeed it does, and, its closer to what tolkien described, unlike Adar, which is the whole point that you are deviating.
    Nope, Tolkien Has elves say orcs look like they could be savage and evil elves, Adar is closer to that then the oatmeal monsters.


    The last one was corrupted men, the elven descendant is one of the oldest ones.
    Again link something to back it up because the chapter structure of his notes disagrees so I'm just gonna go with you making that up.


    boromir scene ahve Uruk-hais, THAT ARE DESCRIBED BIGGER, lol.

    See the snaga or by example, the ones who took Frodo after the spider attack, dude is sallow, have fangged teeth, crocked and smaller then men, almost hobbit size.

    You saying the is bigger ones does not contradict shit since he himself said there are exceptions.
    Your right those are Uruk-hai's.

    Though Going through how jackson Depicted them there are multiple different kinds of orcs from multiple different battles that are not Uruk hai's that are also just as tall as men like like the Morannon Orcs who jackson made him self not based off Tolkien.

    Only the orcs that capture Frodo after the spider are seemingly smaller then men though Id have to rewatch all the movies to actually check that for sure.

    So at best Jackson ignored your description the majority of the time using it for just one or so group of orcs while all others didn't fit at all.


    They fit more than adar that is just an elf
    Nope.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-11 at 10:20 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Ya no you assuming that doesn't make it the case at all.
    Its no less of an assumption than yours, so

    again here's the actaul quote.
    If there is a different name for what he is, then he is not the proper orc, but a moriondor, the ones who gave origin to the actual orcs, again, wolf and dog scenario, that is my point for this entire time.

    He looking exactly like an elf and NOTHING, like an orc just further confirms that.
    Nope, Tolkien Has elves say orcs look like they could be savage and evil elves, Adar is closer to that then the oatmeal monsters.
    Except tolkien himself said orcs are not elvish, and time and time again say they are sallow or black skinned, fanged, crooked, have long arms, etc

    Nothing to do with Adar and more close to the ones in the movies and the show.

    ITs extremely funny how you nitpick what tolkien words you want to use. you are grasping hard on that passage while ignoring all the rest. cause if you use BOTH, it goes against your premise

    Though Going through how jackson Depicted them there are multiple different kinds of orcs from multiple different battles that are not Uruk hai's that are also just as tall as men like like the Morannon Orcs who jackson made him self not based off Tolkien. [

    Only the orcs that capture Frodo after the spider are seemingly smaller then men though Id have to rewatch all the movies to actually check that for sure.

    So at best Jackson ignored your description the majority of the time using it for just one or so group of orcs while all others didn't fit at all.
    Nope, he didn't ignore, he just portrayed different types, that there are many.

    And nope, you were wrong, Another example, The other orcs in Mordor were smaller, and Sam and Frodo were able to disguise themselves among then JUST FINE, There is smaller orcs in the mines of moria,, the ones travelling with the uruk-hai that catch the hobbits, there is the ones in goblintown from the hobbit movies, and the goblin king who is also fairly alike tolkien description being "massive".


    So yes, the orcs from jackson look more like the tolkien description, and adar is just an elf

    Nope.
    Thats just delusional.

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    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Its no less of an assumption than yours, so
    I don't have to assume any thing the show calls him and orc displays that he has orc like features with his black blood and directly states that there were century's between the first orcs showing up and that they bred and spread throughout the land.


    If there is a different name for what he is, then he is not the proper orc, but a moriondor, the ones who gave origin to the actual orcs, again, wolf and dog scenario, that is my point for this entire time.
    The show disagrees and calls him an orc, there's no getting around that.



    Except tolkien himself said orcs are not elvish, and time and time again say they are sallow or black skinned, fanged, crooked, have long arms, etc

    Nothing to do with Adar and more close to the ones in the movies and the show.

    ITs extremely funny how you nitpick what tolkien words you want to use. you are grasping hard on that passage while ignoring all the rest. cause if you use BOTH, it goes against your premise
    Yes Tolkin said in his notes said they weren't elvish, in later notes he did they could come from elves, in the works he published and his son published it says they came from elves. I have even said Adar doesn't fit the black skinned long armed ect description that you have been using nor does he fit the Mongol one but neither do the majority of jacksons orcs outside of 1 Group post frodo's capture.

    I am not nitpicking or ignoring any passages I have acknowledged multiple times that he went back and forth on there origin but the one he settled on in the later end of his notes, the one he published and the one his son published all make them elvish or a mix of elves and humans if you go off the note.

    YOU have been nitpicking and grasping To a single note to say they aren't elvish and ignoring all other works that say they are even if those works came after the note you want to use.



    Nope, he didn't ignore, he just portrayed different types, that there are many.

    And nope, you were wrong, Another example, The other orcs in Mordor were smaller, and Sam and Frodo were able to disguise themselves among then JUST FINE, There is smaller orcs in the mines of moria,, the ones travelling with the uruk-hai that catch the hobbits, there is the ones in goblintown from the hobbit movies, and the goblin king who is also fairly alike tolkien description being "massive".
    Same and frodo disguise them self's with the same type of orc as capture them, The mines of moria it's hard to get a good angle but some of them seem the same size as the humans both in the troll fight and when there encircled, The one's with the Uruk-hai when marry and pippin are captured are as tall as men when not crouching.

    So that's just the post spider orcs and the goblin town orcs out of what's likely 20 or so groups of orcs shown, and while the goblin town one's might fit visually, Jesus was every thing there an abomination.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The show disagrees and calls him an orc, there's no getting around that.
    Show call him Moriondor. Again, wolf dog scenario, you can call a wof a dog all you want

    And im not going to etertain the rest any further, cause again, is jsut nitpicking and derailing the discussion fromt he original point, that he looks exactly like an elf (even more than some of the elves in the show, and nothing like an orc, and the show/movie orcs are more close to what tolkien described than him, period.

    Same and frodo disguise them self's with the same type of orc as capture them,
    yes and? they disguise themselves AMONG other orcs with similar size. they even start a fight with the others.
    The mines of moria it's hard to get a good angle but some of them seem the same size as the humans both in the troll fight and when there encircled
    There is a few ones even smaller than men, there is close angle that show then very goblin-like(like the snaga), i think even Gandalf call then goblins, and goblins is the term in the hobbit books to describe the smaller orcs
    The one's with the Uruk-hai when marry and pippin are captured are as tall as men when not crouching.
    some of then are far smaller than the Uruk-hai, who had men height.

    So that's just the post spider orcs and the goblin town orcs out of what's likely 20 or so groups of orcs shown, and while the goblin town one's might fit visually, Jesus was every thing there an abomination.
    Point is: they look like an orc, to what tolkien described, WAY MORE than the elf called Adar., thats my point.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2023-02-11 at 11:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Show call him Moriondor. Again, wolf dog scenario, you can call a wof a dog all you want
    again the full quote you are apparently allergic to.

    Galadrial: You are one of them are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.
    Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."

    And im not going to etertain the rest any further, cause again, is jsut nitpicking and derailing the discussion fromt he original point, that he looks exactly like an elf (even more than some of the elves in the show, and nothing like an orc, and the show/movie orcs are more close to what tolkien described than him, period.[Q
    It is nitpicking, its you grabbing that one word and ignoring the rest of what being said because it doesn't agree with you Just as you have nitpicked that one note about the orcs origin and ignored all later notes and what both Tolkien and his son have actually published.


    yes and? they disguise themselves AMONG other orcs with similar size. they even start a fight with the others.
    They fake a fight with each other not other orcs and then slip away when the task master breaks it up.

    There is a few ones even smaller than men, there is close angle that show then very goblin-like(like the snaga), i think even Gandalf call then goblins, and goblins is the term in the hobbit books to describe the smaller orcs
    There are one's smaller then men, But one's the same size as men are not a rare expectations like you tried to point to earlier and the majority of Jacksons (and RoP) orcs are the size of men or mabye bigger making the whole size thing pointless.

    Point is: they look like an orc, to what tolkien described, WAY MORE than the elf called Adar., thats my point.
    If your only going off of size sure Jackson used orcs that fit the size all of twice and used jagged tweeth, he didn't use dark skin slanted eyes or elongated arms, He also added a ton of characteristic Tolkien.

    while Adar is also far from the listed characteristic he fits a evil and savage elf fine.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-12 at 12:03 AM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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