Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Fabinas]

the fact you aren't aware of why it was so controversial is actually pretty on brand for you considering you have no fucking clue why this project is a raging dumpster fire the likes of which has never been seen before and likely will never be seen again after the cataclysmic backlash it has received, to enlighten you:

the 'superfans' videos were made by Amazon inviting people (paid for their travel, paid for their accommodation, paid them with gift sets worth hundreds of £/$,) to watch a pre screening of the first episode, all of the non English speaking 'fans' were left to discuss whatever they wanted, however the English language version was filled with:

a lesbian white woman with 1 functional eye who had/has a lady boner for all things harry potter and is clueless about LOTR.

a straight black woman who only cares about 'female empowerment' and other such woke communities, she is the one named above who openly stated she wasn't gonna be watching this shitshow because she was too engrossed in the House of the Dragon, and that, quote: 'rings of power needs to be something special if it's gonna beat house of the dragon (insert nervous laughing here)'.

a gay black man who became a meme because of his coached comments regarding the character of Sauron (as halbrand), quote: 'if Sauron is hot i feel like people will think, "i can fix him"', this comment was loved so much by those directing off screen that they had him repeat this quote a second time using a different hair stroke pattern with his hand and he wasn't able to replicate what he said so when he did a second take which was stitched into the main video, he said something different but with the same message behind it.

lastly we had a straight guy of Indian descent from the UK who was 'hosting' all he did was list off a bunch of pre-approved questions based on their off screen direction to the group all the while waving his hands around like he is fighting off some invisible force.

not only was the entire production poorly staged, in that the gay black guy kept looking towards the camera/slightly off camera to get reassurance what he was saying was ok from whoever was directing the scene, but the entire time all they talked about was 'diversity' and 'inclusion' not once did they even provide ANY feedback about the little preview they were shown, never once talked about its contents, never once mentioned anything about it that would indicate they had watched anything that wasn't already freely available to watch at the time already to the public, not to mention the heavily staged and badly directed stop/start nature of the groups walking into the venue.

not only that but every single one of them broke the law here in the UK, they received not only on site hospitality for the entire event, they also received a gift set alongside other things acting as pseudo payment for their positive review of the event, which is not allowed under UK law, any gifts received must be declared when offering any form of endorsement of a product and where necessary any conflicts of interest should be disclosed also, none of this was done so everything that was said
in all of these videos put out by Amazon should be disregarded and ignored as false information as a result of a conflict of interests.



this is the UK video, the only one that was 'unlisted' on youtube and the only one where the people involved were obviously coached and directed to say what they said, the non English versions with the different groups of people were not coached or directed, as shown by the fact that the rest of them all talked about the teaser trailer in some fashion, while sprinkling in that they were wined and dined as part of their trip.

this is one of the many pieces of media that caused Amazon to censor their videos in English, not only removing comments from legitimate users, but also trying to remove dislikes from legitimate users, it was one of the early dominoes that fell in the cascade of backlash against this shitshow of a fanfiction project and was just the beginning of how anything released surrounding this show was universally hated, being ratio'd into oblivion on every platform Amazon tried to post anything to, Youtube, Twitter, Facebook, IRL marketing (billboards etc), everything without exception was downvoted so far by so many people that Amazon in their desperation paid some of the actors of the PJ trilogy to wear hastily printed T-shirts and pose for photo's posted on Twitter with captions that were there purely to try and deflect, because none of what Amazon was trying to claim in these posts was true, and when they finally lost hold of their own narrative the mask came off and they went full censorship mode on EVERYTHING, any form of negative criticism was banned, whether that be in text form, through sharing meme's, or anything inbetween, people were being banned from communities which prior to the show being announced officially had millions of people in them to being left with barely a few hundred thousand members on the biggest platforms, and many of the shill media defending this mess actually going bankrupt once the Amazon money stopped coming in.


but please, tell me again how wonderful this show is, tell me how it's a perfect representation of the lore of middle earth, tell me more about how a bastardised fanfiction pile of garbage is 'stunning', 'brave', 'empowering', when all possible points of data state that it was so universally hated by any and all that interacted with it, that it has more 'hate watchers' than actual people watching it out of 'joy'.

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Adamas here is one of those people who was heavily 'white knighting' this show earlier in the thread while the main marketing campaign was going, he was defending things that me and many others said were hot garbage using the defense of:

'you haven't seen it so how can you possibly pass judgement on it'

and ignoring anybody who stated:

'because of past experience we know exactly what will happen because everything they are doing is catalogued in the woke players handbook'

all because that sort of thing didn't fit with his and the general narrative at the time (still doesn't to this day but it's better to be rabid to the end and stick to your failed point than admit defeat in Adamas' eyes).

all in all, this terrible fanfiction of cataclysmic proportions still has some defenders somehow despite being proven beyond doubt that it's a catastrophe in both critical and public opinion, and even the paid for reviews did a quick 180 when their payments stopped conflicting their interests, it takes a special kind of deluded idiot to ignore that fact but here we are, with a few here and there in this thread still gripping onto that thread for dear life.

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Adamas here is one of those people who was heavily 'white knighting' this show earlier in the thread while the main marketing campaign was going, he was defending things that me and many others said were hot garbage using the defense of:

'you haven't seen it so how can you possibly pass judgement on it'

and ignoring anybody who stated:

'because of past experience we know exactly what will happen because everything they are doing is catalogued in the woke players handbook'

all because that sort of thing didn't fit with his and the general narrative at the time (still doesn't to this day but it's better to be rabid to the end and stick to your failed point than admit defeat in Adamas' eyes).

all in all, this terrible fanfiction of cataclysmic proportions still has some defenders somehow despite being proven beyond doubt that it's a catastrophe in both critical and public opinion, and even the paid for reviews did a quick 180 when their payments stopped conflicting their interests, it takes a special kind of deluded idiot to ignore that fact but here we are, with a few here and there in this thread still gripping onto that thread for dear life.

I won't go and comment on ANYTHING you said.

But i watched that video and it's so...

i mean, i get it, some marketing people actually thought that this video will be awesome to make, will tick all the boxes, will appeal to people with various sensitivities etc

It definitely wasn't made with LotR fans in mind. It's focused on another generation with their mindset and things that find important etc.

But i doubt these particular people are LotR fans and that the things that interest them in their life have ANYTHING to do with LotR.

[Azsune]

I won't go and comment on ANYTHING you said.

But i watched that video and it's so...

i mean, i get it, some marketing people actually thought that this video will be awesome to make, will tick all the boxes, will appeal to people with various sensitivities etc

It definitely wasn't made with LotR fans in mind. It's focused on another generation with their mindset and things that find important etc.

But i doubt these particular people are LotR fans and that the things that interest them in their life have ANYTHING to do with LotR.

I do remember one of the writers during an interview stated he didn't think Tolkien was a very good writer and that they were improving upon it.

I did watch the show and roasted it with friends. We did agree a lot of it looked pretty and cool but the story was just meh.

[rogoth]

I won't go and comment on ANYTHING you said.

But i watched that video and it's so...

i mean, i get it, some marketing people actually thought that this video will be awesome to make, will tick all the boxes, will appeal to people with various sensitivities etc

It definitely wasn't made with LotR fans in mind. It's focused on another generation with their mindset and things that find important etc.

But i doubt these particular people are LotR fans and that the things that interest them in their life have ANYTHING to do with LotR.

this is the ONLY VIDEO of its kind, they released about 8 of these videos in different nationality groups, italian, dutch, german etc, ONLY the UK video had these topics, ONLY the UK one was coached and directed on what to say, ONLY the UK one failed to talk about ANY of the footage they were shown, it's like Amazon was using the UK video as a vehicle for an 'American' version and thought it was a good idea to highjack the UK video and push their 'diversity' and 'inclusion' narrative, which at the time these videos came out was their ENTIRE MARKETING STRATEGY, in none of the other language videos do they mention anything about 'inclusion' or 'diversity', for the most part they are left to their own devices to talk about whatever they want surrounding this event, the only 'weird' one you could argue is the french version as it's just 1 guy on a stage talking to a camera, with the majority of his video spent showing trailer footage and him having makeup applied, and ironically he is the most 'fanlike' of all the people represented in the entire event, he actually knows some of the lore and is an actual journalist in france, it's almost like the people behind this project are incompetent twats who don't do any research because the one person who they probably should have been coaching and directing (an actual journalist) was left to talk on his own in front of the camera for 5 minutes, whereas the UK version has a load of instagram nobodies who have never posted anything about LOTR, and even now to this day have not produced a single piece of content between them around LOTR, the lesbian with 1 working eye is pushing out harry potter based content (it's all she does), the straight black woman put a vid on instagram (the contents of which i stated above in summary), the gay black guy has yet to post anything regarding a fantasy story period, and the other guy who was there to act as a host has done nothing short of try to start a music career which has failed to materialise.

frankly if you watch all the other 'superfan' videos and get an accurate translation of what is said in each one, it's almost as if Amazon were too afraid to cross the 'woke' line in these countries and these cultures, and were relying on the UK video to do all that heavy lifting for them because they knew that the UK version wouldn't be as difficult to sell a woke narrative with compared with the rest.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

lets get some basic things covered that can all be agreed upon ok?

what were they there for?: they were present at this event to provide a review of the pre release trailer footage they were shown.

what happened during the event?: they were flown out to a location on the Spanish island of Majorca to a venue that was hired out by Amazon for this 2 day event where the guests stayed and were 'wined and dined' while there, not only were they plied with alcohol and a gift set, they were also told they would be invited to a second event closer to the release of the show if they were favourable during this event.

as part of their endorsement, they were paid by Amazon (in the form of hospitality and the copious gifts they were given when there) and in return gave a rave review, under UK law this sort of thing is illegal and is a clear conflict of interest, as such it should have been disclosed very clearly beforehand what was given to these people, and how their view was tarnished, it is also illegal to coerce a positive outcome from someone who is reviewing something who has taken payment for a service if they are an independent entity (which all of these 'superfans' are).

the only reason people found out about the gift sets and the onsite gifts given on top of those gift sets is because someone who was there shared online a short video of them opening up their small gift bag, and in one of the non English videos they stated about how they were given as much alcohol as they wanted and how great it was, if it wasn't for these 'accidental slip ups' nobody would have known about these gifts, which makes things even worse, Amazon thought they could get away with it (and clearly did because nobody has the financial means to challenge it) by providing non monetary reparations for the positive reviews given by these 'superfans'.

these 'superfans' broke the law by not disclosing they were payed to give their review and provided false and misleading information based on the understanding that they would receive further preferential treatment and further gifts if they provided a positive review, if they had disclosed these things it wouldn't be an issue, but because they purposefully hid them, and were later shamed into admitting they were given these things that's where the line is drawn, they knowingly and wilfully accepted payment to provide false and misleading information which could lead to financial gain for the person/persons that the review was designed to help, and that's where the breach occurs, but because the event wasn't held on the mainland UK, and because nobody has the financial means to contest such a thing in court against Amazon (who for all intents and purposes have unlimited funds) nobody has actually filed anything against them.

these are all a year old at this point so if you genuinely wish to learn more about this entire debacle, go look it up, i'm sure you can easily find some of the videos on youtube that are still up, there might be some you can't find because they were forced down but the info is there, as for me it's nearly 4:30 A.M where i live and i'm going to bed, have fun, and i can't wait to see what excuses people will make for breaking the law regarding commercial gain and how Amazon did nothing wrong while making this so called 'masterpiece' of a shitshow.

So assuming all of this actually happened, Your saying that it's proven in some video's that may or may not exist and nobody reported on it other wise or if they did it was supposedly forcefully taken down by amazon, You also won't link any of said video's and any one interested just need to wade through the Likely hundreds of videos around superfans to find it.

[Dhrizzle]

I do remember one of the writers during an interview stated he didn't think Tolkien was a very good writer and that they were improving upon it.

Citation very much needed.

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<snip>

Obviously this is something you feel very strongly about, but all it looks like to me is a big corporation making a cringey advert and I don't see how anyone could care so much about it.

[Adamas102]

Obviously this is something you feel very strongly about, but all it looks like to me is a big corporation making a cringey advert and I don't see how anyone could care so much about it.

The poster in question is probably one of the most delusional posters in this thread and has a habit of simply making shit up and then getting irrationally angry when his lies (and abysmal reading comprehension) are pointed out.

The fact that he wrote such a long post with absolutely no substance is pretty on brand with him. You’re absolutely right, this “superfans” thing was just a marketing gimmick and has absolutely nothing to do with the show itself. Definitely not surprised that this man-child is still so worked up about it though given how much time he spent trying to push his piss poor interpretation of Amazon’s DE&I policy last year.

Let’s pretend this “superfans” thing didn’t happen. The show would obviously be completely unchanged. There really is no compelling argument for why it would be important to someone like myself who never watched it to begin with, and yet you still have people like Rogoth absolutely rabid about it…

The only “issue” would be for people who watched the marketing and as a result decided to not watch the show despite the fact that they might have enjoyed it. That’s obviously not the case with any of the people in this thread since they all watched the show despite whatever negative impression they got from the marketing.

[Triceron]

The only “issue” would be for people who watched the marketing and as a result decided to not watch the show despite the fact that they might have enjoyed it. That’s obviously not the case with any of the people in this thread since they all watched the show despite whatever negative impression they got from the marketing.

You obviously don't understand how a fandom works if you think one bad promotional is gonna stop long-standing Tolkien fans who want to see a good TV series based in Middle Earth. It's not, and that's part of the problem with the Superfans promo. Who was it made for? Obviously the casual audience, since none of the Superfans were actual Tolkien fans at all and had practically zero knowledge about Middle Earth and its mythology outside 'having watched the movies'. But casual audiences wouldn't care about watching a 'Superfans' promo either, they'd just be the casual audience. So what we have are the fans who are anticipating Rings of Power and a Middle Earth-based TV series watching this abomination. That's what happened.

A bad promo isn't going to stop fans passion for material they hold dear to them. It's just gonna be a sore spot that will be pointed out. It's too early to look back on and laugh at, like the 70's Star Wars Holiday specials. It's still a fresh wound, like the Star Wars sequel trilogy.

[Triceron]

There’s a lot here that’s similar to the sequel trilogy. They obviously got a lot of interest because STAR WARS but they were not good and greatly dampened fan enthusiasm for more. LOTR is in the early stages of this where reception is not great but the failure isn’t as obvious as it will be in a few years because they got a lot of interest.

Star Wars has mostly moved into ignoring the sequels and constantly just fleshing out the events during the first 6 movies. That feels like what might hopefully happen to RoP - it becomes a black mark that everyone eventually ignores.

It's hard to conceptualize any sort of 'future failure' though, since failure and success are relative in retrospect, not really applicable when it hasn't happened yet.

I could just as much say that Game of Thrones S8 screwed the pooch, and squandered any good faith the fans have in future content. But we can clearly see that it hasn't phased the reception of House of Dragons, at all. Or how the Last Jedi squandered the good faith fans had in the movies, but even the mediocre Rise of Skywalker continued to make bank.

I personally think fans are quite resilient to bullshit, and are more willing to consume content (when there is a lack of it) over abstaining from potential 'failure'. And there's always the case that the fans don't really know what they want, and will even skip over stuff that they should be watching. Like, Andor is the way superior show over Book of Boba Fett or Obi-Wan, but its numbers are no where close to that because fans generally have little interest in a show following 'that one dude from Rogue One' as compared to shows about a Bounty Hunter or Jedi. So in a way, even good shows like Andor can be considered 'failures' when it comes to lacking that mass appeal, while shows like Obi-wan and Book of Boba Fett could be seen as being more successful, even though the shows themselves were mediocre at best.

The casual fanbase mostly doesn't care about the same things that the hardcore fans do. And Rings of Power is successful due to the overwhelming casual audience, the people who generally don't know (or care) about Tolkien/Middle Earth mythology in the books. Whether that continues to be the case for a S2, only time will tell.

[rhorle]

Star Wars has mostly moved into ignoring the sequels and constantly just fleshing out the events during the first 6 movies. That feels like what might hopefully happen to RoP - it becomes a black mark that everyone eventually ignores.

That is because Star Wars is "done" with the Skywalker Saga and actively developing shows and movies for the High Republic and Old Republic. They did the same thing when actively developing for the Clone Wars and prequels. They ignored the OT.

Also how can fan enthusiasm be dampened when even someone as yourself will hate watch and hate watch a season 2? All of these "fans" like to talk how X ruined Y and blah blah blah but in the end they still consume the content anyways. Just like now you are saying "in a decade the failure will be clear!!!". You are just continually moving the goal posts to somehow justify the hate even just for the sake of it.

[Adamas102]

You obviously don't understand how a fandom works if you think one bad promotional is gonna stop long-standing Tolkien fans who want to see a good TV series based in Middle Earth. It's not, and that's part of the problem with the Superfans promo. Who was it made for? Obviously the casual audience, since none of the Superfans were actual Tolkien fans at all and had practically zero knowledge about Middle Earth and its mythology outside 'having watched the movies'. But casual audiences wouldn't care about watching a 'Superfans' promo either, they'd just be the casual audience. So what we have are the fans who are anticipating Rings of Power and a Middle Earth-based TV series watching this abomination. That's what happened.

A bad promo isn't going to stop fans passion for material they hold dear to them. It's just gonna be a sore spot that will be pointed out. It's too early to look back on and laugh at, like the 70's Star Wars Holiday specials. It's still a fresh wound, like the Star Wars sequel trilogy.

Well, first off you can go ahead and drop your fandom gatekeeping in suggesting what "real fans" are meant to do or know. Seriously, fuck off with that shit. Neither you nor anyone else in this thread dictates requirements for being a Tolkien fan.

There was a lot of marketing material meant to hype up the series (as is the case with all big shows/movies). I certainly watched a couple of trailers leading up to the release, but that was about it. I guarantee you that all the posters that latched onto this particular promo did NOT watch every single cast appearance on late night shows, or read every single article that was published, or every single production promo. No, instead they rabidly locked onto the one marketing promo that best encapsulated their preemptive dislike of the show. I'm sure we can go back and see that most of these posters were already decrying the show from the moment the cast was revealed.

The show certainly wasn't perfect, but it's laughable that this fucking promo, which may indeed be the cringiest promo every made (I don't know, still don't care to watch it), is still referenced incessantly as something pivotal to the series itself or of any importance whatsoever.

[Rennadrel]

You obviously don't understand how a fandom works if you think one bad promotional is gonna stop long-standing Tolkien fans who want to see a good TV series based in Middle Earth. It's not, and that's part of the problem with the Superfans promo. Who was it made for? Obviously the casual audience, since none of the Superfans were actual Tolkien fans at all and had practically zero knowledge about Middle Earth and its mythology outside 'having watched the movies'. But casual audiences wouldn't care about watching a 'Superfans' promo either, they'd just be the casual audience. So what we have are the fans who are anticipating Rings of Power and a Middle Earth-based TV series watching this abomination. That's what happened.

A bad promo isn't going to stop fans passion for material they hold dear to them. It's just gonna be a sore spot that will be pointed out. It's too early to look back on and laugh at, like the 70's Star Wars Holiday specials. It's still a fresh wound, like the Star Wars sequel trilogy.

The whole superfans thing was just a bunch of loser zoomers who had clearly never read the books and just wanted to bitch about Peter Jackson using a cast of characters who happened to represent the world as he saw it at the time, and that was a world rooted in British folklore.

[Triceron]

Well, first off you can go ahead and drop your fandom gatekeeping in suggesting what "real fans" are meant to do or know. Seriously, fuck off with that shit. Neither you nor anyone else in this thread dictates

Sorry if you feel butthurt about having it not apply to you. Not my problem. Not once did I use the word 'real fans', so I don't know why you're even using that as an argument. Sounds like a strawman argument to me, really.

If you don't like it, feel free to spend your precious time doing something else. Why waste our time complaining, right? I'm surely not dictating your reason to be here merely by responding to you.

There was a lot of marketing material meant to hype up the series (as is the case with all big shows/movies). I certainly watched a couple of trailers leading up to the release, but that was about it. I guarantee you that all the posters that latched onto this particular promo did NOT watch every single cast appearance on late night shows, or read every single article that was published, or every single production promo. No, instead they rabidly locked onto the one marketing promo that best encapsulated their preemptive dislike of the show. I'm sure we can go back and see that most of these posters were already decrying the show from the moment the cast was revealed.

What does that matter? I don't see the relevance. I could say there are posters here ready to defend the show before it even came out, no matter how bad it was. Wouldn't be any different would it? People are free to have their biases.

The show certainly wasn't perfect, but it's laughable that this fucking promo, which may indeed be the cringiest promo every made (I don't know, still don't care to watch it), is still referenced incessantly as something pivotal to the series itself or of any importance whatsoever.

I mean you say don't gatekeep the fandom, but you pretty much are doing that right here. Spaghettimonk only made a passing reference about it, while we're here because you decided to stir the pot about how irrelevant you think it is for anyone to complain about. That's also gatekeeping. If it ain't that important to you, you wouldn't have talked about it at all. And we wouldn't be here. It was literally a passing mention in his post. What happened instead was you decided to stir a hornet's nest, for whatever reason you decided it was necessary. And that's why Rogoth came out of nowhere with his response to you. He hadn't really been in the thread for quite some time.

All I'm pointing out is why people are still sore about it. I couldn't care less about the promo. That doesn't mean it's not important to them, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be important at all.

[Adamas102]

Sorry if you feel butthurt about having it not apply to you. Not my problem. Not once did I use the word 'real fans', so I don't know why you're even using that as an argument. Sounds like a strawman argument to me, really.

What? Having what not apply to me? The line you quoted had nothing to do with me personally so what are you talking about here?

And don't play dumb. "Since none of the Superfans were actual Tolkien fans at all" is very much you trying to dictate who the "real fans" are.

Spaghettimonk only made a passing reference about it, while we're here because you decided to stir the pot about how irrelevant you think it is for anyone to complain about.

All I'm pointing out is why people are still sore about it. I couldn't care less about the promo. That doesn't mean it's not important to them, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be important at all.

Talk about a fucking straw man. We're here because YOU decided to take it upon yourself to explain how "passionate fans" should act.

Spaghetti made a passing reference? No. He said that promo specifically (and a completely different, unconnected show) was what made him expect that RoP would be bad. The conversation between us was over last page after he essentially said that he's fine watching things he doesn't really enjoy.

And lets not forget that the post of mine YOU responded to was actually referencing a different poster. One who wrote a bizarre 2,000 word essay on the promo in question.

I know you're one of those people who likes to think that all opinions are equal, and if someone says something is important then no one can say it isn't. No, that's not how things work. Amazon promoting their own product using random people reacting to [checks notes] a teaser trailer objectively has no bearing on the quality of the show itself. People can say whatever they want about how it made them decide the show would be bad, and I have no issue pointing out how absurd that is.

Hate the promo because it's weird and cringey? Fine. Hate the show because it wasn't what you wanted/expected? Fine. Talk about how the quality of the promo had anything to do with the quality of the show? Yeah, I'll point out how silly that is. Spaghetti shrugged it off. Rogoth lost his fucking mind (as per usual). And you jumped in... why?

[rogoth]

What? Having what not apply to me? The line you quoted had nothing to do with me personally so what are you talking about here?

And don't play dumb. "Since none of the Superfans were actual Tolkien fans at all" is very much you trying to dictate who the "real fans" are.



Talk about a fucking straw man. We're here because YOU decided to take it upon yourself to explain how "passionate fans" should act.

Spaghetti made a passing reference? No. He said that promo specifically (and a completely different, unconnected show) was what made him expect that RoP would be bad. The conversation between us was over last page after he essentially said that he's fine watching things he doesn't really enjoy.

And lets not forget that the post of mine YOU responded to was actually referencing a different poster. One who wrote a bizarre 2,000 word essay on the promo in question.

I know you're one of those people who likes to think that all opinions are equal, and if someone says something is important then no one can say it isn't. No, that's not how things work. Amazon promoting their own product using random people reacting to [checks notes] a teaser trailer objectively has no bearing on the quality of the show itself. People can say whatever they want about how it made them decide the show would be bad, and I have no issue pointing out how absurd that is.

Hate the promo because it's weird and cringey? Fine. Hate the show because it wasn't what you wanted/expected? Fine. Talk about how the quality of the promo had anything to do with the quality of the show? Yeah, I'll point out how silly that is. Spaghetti shrugged it off. Rogoth lost his fucking mind (as per usual). And you jumped in... why?

lets just address your asinine points shall we:

first off, it's categorical fact that these 'superfans' are not in anyway shape or form 'Tolkien fans', not only is their entire portfolio of content devoid of ANYTHING relating to middle earth, in the instance of the 'straight black girl social justice warrior', she put a video on instagram where she was asked the question 'are you gonna watch rings of power?' and she said that she was having too much fun watching house of the dragon and that if she had time/felt like it, she would wait until rings of power had fully released and binge it then, leaving off with: quote: 'rings of power is gonna need to do something special if it's gonna beat house of the dragon hahahahaha'.

you're conflating gatekeeping to calling out instagram 'influencers' who are there paid to do a job who have no interest in the material they are reviewing and are there purely to tick a box on a sheet of paper to appeal to whichever minorities the company (in this case Amazon) have designated as important groups to appeal to, it's got nothing to do with saying who 'real fans' are because these clowns in this video are not fans, the only knowledge they have of the source material is what they have picked up through social osmosis and maybe as a side effect of what the PJ movies brought to the table, along with what they were coached and directed to say because it's VERY FUCKING CLEAR that the 'gay black man' in this video wasn't sure at all about what he was saying and was constantly looking at or near the camera to get some sort of off screen recognition from the director that he was doing ok.

once again, this entire post from you smacks of ignorance and stupidity, why?, because you stated clearly you have no interest in watching or engaging with the material, yet you feel the need to comment on the subject matter as if you have a wealth of knowledge about it, when in fact you don't and every time you 'open your mouth' a mess of babble falls out all over the place with no meaning or substance, the only thing your words are doing is as stated is 'stirring the pot' and 'wasting bandwidth' because you have no point, it's all just glorified ad hominem bullshit.

it's actually enlightening to me just how difficult it is for your American brain to ratify what is going on here, it's honestly interesting to me to see someone so clearly struggling to understand something and fight as hard as they can to justify their point while simultaneously failing to grasp why people don't agree with them in the first place.

Lastly, and this is actually something important and i hope it will actually educate you but i suspect you will just ignore it because that's what you do, but i'll try to illustrate the point anyway:

the 'quality' of this 'promo' had and has DIRECT CORRELATION to the 'quality' of the show, this promo was clearly staged, badly directed, badly cast and badly presented, would you know it, that's EXACTLY HOW THE SHOW TURNED OUT, almost a carbon copy in fact it's actually scary at just how similar in 'quality' these 'superfans' videos were to the 'quality' of the overall production as a whole and actually set the tone for what to expect from this raging dumpster fire of a project.

but of course, you haven't watched these videos, you don't know the scope of anything because you fail to grasp the concept, as a result of that you then fail to understand the underlying issues, and as a result of that, we are brought to this conclusion that you are making nothing but asinine comments based on flawed information that have no bearing on reality except that which causes you're deluded way of thinking, and in a thread on a fan site which is approaching 10,000 interactions, you are in the distinct minority of people defending this show, and trying to defend the foundation it is built upon, which is a woke disaster that focussed on casting people based on their skin colour instead of casting people that made sense to the lore, a show that focussed on tearing up the source material, rewriting it and bastardising it so badly as to be unrecognisable to the original beloved work, a show so universally hated in all measurable metrics yet is still being touted as a 'success' because some manager in a suit high up decided to spin it that way instead of actually reporting things as they are, but by all means keep defending this travesty, keep living in your little American bubble of delusion, i'm sure nothing could possibly go wrong from it.

[Triceron]

Talk about a fucking straw man. We're here because YOU decided to take it upon yourself to explain how "passionate fans" should act.

Er, no?

No where did I ever imply how anyone should act. I explained why certain people were reacting to the promos when you personally felt it was unimportant. The context of my reply is about how fans reacted to the promo, and how one bad promo wouldn't have stopped these long-time fans from watching the show. It's not a statement on how all fans should act.

You're the one strawmanning this into a statement about how fans should act, not me. Take a step back and read everything I wrote in my response without the bullshit filter you're trying to apply to it.

Hate the promo because it's weird and cringey? Fine. Hate the show because it wasn't what you wanted/expected? Fine. Talk about how the quality of the promo had anything to do with the quality of the show? Yeah, I'll point out how silly that is. Spaghetti shrugged it off. Rogoth lost his fucking mind (as per usual). And you jumped in... why?

Because you're doing the exact thing you tried attacking me of - dictating how fans should react. This is one of your quotes:

"If you’re a fan of the books or the movies, that doesn’t mean you should feel compelled to watch something completely different just because it’s related (if you’ve already pretty much decided you weren’t going to enjoy it)."

Well how would you know what other fans should or shouldn't do? You're not other fans.

You see? This is the double standard you're applying here. So honestly, who are you actually mad at here?

I'm not the one trying to dismiss anyone's opinion. You are. I'm not the one making a statement on how people should be reacting. You are. Let's make this very clear.

Whether or not you think it's silly or not is up to you, and that's fine. But just because it's unimportant to you is not due cause to imply it's unimportant to anyone else. That's the simple truth of the matter.

I know you're one of those people who likes to think that all opinions are equal, and if someone says something is important then no one can say it isn't. No, that's not how things work

The way it works is if someone says it's important to them, then it's important to them. If someone feels it's not important to them, then it's not important to them. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and it doesn't affect anyone else's judgement.

No one is saying 'if it's important then no one can say it isn't'. All I've done was present that there are people who consider it important to them. At no point did I say anyone has to agree with them; I don't think the promo was important at all. I don't think there is any reason to dismiss the importance of it to someone else just because I personally don't share their opinion. I can understand why they feel the way they do, even if I don't agree with their sentiment.

The opposite is actually happening right now, where you're proclaiming it to be unimportant, and expect everyone to agree. Well, I agree the promo was unimportant. But I don't think everyone else needs to agree. People have their own reasons for having their own opinions, fans have their reasons for acting in ways that you feel they shouldn't have to. I'm not sure why you see this as a problem. There isn't any universal way any fan should or shouldn't be acting.

[Adamas102]

/snip

It's not a double standard because you're literally doing nothing but arguing in favor of irrationality.

A compulsion (as an irresistible urge) is by definition irrational. People SHOULDN'T feel compelled to do things they don't want to do when there are no outside pressures acting on them. Whether or not they're long time fans is irrelevant. Not every long term fan feels compelled to guzzle down any and all content thrown their way so I wouldn't say it's the default position to not be discerning when it comes to what content fans consume. Unless you want to argue that all (or even most) fans are to some extent crazy and can't be expected to act rationally then there should be no problem in pointing out that people shouldn't feel the need to watch something that they feel they won't enjoy.

Additionally, thinking that a promotional piece that was created completely separately from the subject it's promoting is intrinsically connected in quality is also irrational. It's pretty much on the same level as people who make day to day decisions based on astrology or similar things which are disconnected from reality. People do it. And they FEEL like it's important. But they're acting irrationally based on perceived connections that don't exist. Just because they FEEL like those connections exist doesn't make it true. Hell, even still you have rogoth above you raging in all caps about how the quality of the promo is "directly correlated" to the show itself which is of course absurd given that we know that no one involved in the production of one would have been involved in the production of the other.

But hey, if the hill you want to die on is "stop telling people to think/act rationally" then so be it. It's definitely not a good look for the fandom when you encourage them to be impulsive, delusional, and/or irrational.

[Triceron]

It's not a double standard because you're literally doing nothing but arguing in favor of irrationality.

It's a double standard because your argument is also irrational. We're ultimately talking about how people feel and were affected by something that displeased them, so an appeal to pure rational logic isn't applicable when we're talking about people's reactions and having their perceptions colored by things they consider to be wrong.

It'd be just as ridiculous if you were trying to convince me that people shouldn't be scared of watching horror movies because they're not real. Rationality doesn't really apply here, since we're talking about an emotional reaction coloring an opinion.

But hey, if the hill you want to die on is "stop telling people to think/act rationally" then so be it. It's definitely not a good look for the fandom when you encourage them to be impulsive, delusional, and/or irrational.

You said it yourself - no reason for anyone to dictate what a fandom should or shouldn't do. Fandoms are filled with irrationality. You can argue that you think that fans should be rational, and I could agree with your sentiment. It's none the less relevant to mention that rationality is quite subjective, and relative to the understanding of the person making the judgement. Just like if one were to argue that a fear of fake blood/gore/violence is considered irrational, it's still a fact that there are many people who are afraid or disgusted by it, regardless of whether one believes it to be rational or not. Emotional responses, for the most part, aren't dictated by rationality.

Ultimately, opinions don't have to be rationalized in ways that makes sense to me and you. If someone doesn't like the show because it's not made by Peter Jackson, calling it an irrational reason doesn't change the opinion that's been presented. It's not dismissible just because you don't happen to agree. It doesn't mean the opinion is actually irrational, it just means you personally perceive it to not make sense.

Implying that only rational actions should be considered is literally gatekeeping. Most opinions and reactions to 'art' tend to come from emotional response or instinct/feeling more than on the grounds of rationality and logic. I mean look at how many people in the world often confuse actors in real life for the characters they play. We can call that reaction irrational, but it happens nonetheless. And my argument isn't about whether it should or shouldn't happen; I'm quite agnostic about how fans choose to act. I'm merely pointing out that it does happen, and it's just a part of how fandoms are. Quite literally, there's nothing rational about fandom in general; what can we say is rational about getting upset over other people expressing their opinions over fictional stories on message boards dedicated to mass-multiplayer gaming? It doesn't matter if it's rational or not, it happens, and it's a part of how fandoms are in general.

What you consider delusion is just your opinion on the matter. Person X could consider any form of fanfiction or people creating it to be delusional or irrational. It doesn't really mean anything overall, since fan fiction is a part of fandoms whether anyone believes it to be sensible or not. And whether it's really 'delusional' is really in the eye of the beholder, which merely colors one's bias when they express their judgement. There's no universal authority that regards what is and isn't rational about fandoms and how they react. And anyone who feigns authority is attempting to be a gatekeeper.

[Adamas102]

It's a double standard because your argument is also irrational.

Ah. So now it's irrational to point out how people aren't thinking/acting rationally about something. Wow... Real deep thoughts there, buddy.

Ineffective? Maybe. But irrational? Are you sure you know what these words mean or is this just a really long shot attempt at obfuscating the actual argument?

Pointing out HOW people are being irrational isn't the same as ORDERING them to be a certain way. "You should/shouldn't do that" isn't an order, it's a suggestion. And yeah, acting rationally typically IS better than acting irrationally, but I'm under no illusion that I'm here to tell random people what they HAVE to do.

And again, it doesn't matter how someone FEELS about something if it isn't in line with reality. It seems like you're completely lost here if you think that I'm telling people not to have feelings, opinions, or emotions. That's not the case at all. Like I said (already, VERY clearly) people can have whatever reaction they want to the promo and to the show. Pointing out the absurdity of making connections that don't exist doesn't negate those feelings, and people thinking those connections exist doesn't make it reality (much less something that can't be challenged).

You keep bringing up a comparison to people liking the show and ignoring any faults, but THAT'S. NOT. BEING. DISCUSSED. It's irrelevant. I don't care if people liked the show or disliked the show. I don't care if people liked the promo or disliked the promo. That's all subject to individual appeal and perception. What is NOT subjective though is there being a connection between the quality of the two things. And yeah, that goes both ways if there was anyone here saying that because they thought the promo was great they therefore knew that the show would be great as well. No one is saying that though because pretty much all the irrational arguments and reactions are coming from the far more emotionally driven camp of negativity.

[Triceron]

Pointing out HOW people are being irrational isn't the same as ORDERING them to be a certain way. "You should/shouldn't do that" isn't an order, it's a suggestion. And yeah, acting rationally typically IS better than acting irrationally, but I'm under no illusion that I'm here to tell random people what they HAVE to do.

I'm not either, which is why I'm confused why you keep bringing this up as an argument.

No one is appealing to tell anyone what to do. What does this have to do with anything?

And again, it doesn't matter how someone FEELS about something if it isn't in line with reality.

What is 'reality'? It's only as relative to how you define it. And that's part of why your argument fringes on gatekeeping. You're defining what rationality means across the board, based on what you personally think makes sense.

Which is no different if someone said no one should have any fear of horror in movies because it's all fake. That reality is only relative to the person making that statement.

It seems like you're completely lost here if you think that I'm telling people not to have feelings, opinions, or emotions. That's not the case at all. Like I said (already, VERY clearly) people can have whatever reaction they want to the promo and to the show. Pointing out the absurdity of making connections that don't exist doesn't negate those feelings, and people thinking those connections exist doesn't make it reality (much less something that can't be challenged).

It makes it real to them, which is why there is a reaction at all.

There's plenty of external factors that affect one's perception of a show. Whether anyone considers the connections to be rational or not doesn't really matter.

It'd be no different if we were talking about an actor/actress/showrunner/author making statements about real life politics and having fans have their enjoyment of the fiction affected by it as a result. We could also consider that to be irrational and have no connection, but in reality it all does connect and it does affect people even if we don't think it should. Like even right now, Wired Magazine gave out 1/10 ratings to Hogwarts Legacy on the basis of JK Rowling's real life comments and opinions. Is that right? Is that rational? Doesn't really matter, because my point is it happens, and it's real. Is it excusable? Is it agreeable? Doesn't matter to me, my point is it happened and it continues to happen, because this is our reality, the one that we live in right now.

I mean, to be very blatantly honest here, most of our social media and how fandoms exist today is perpetuated purely by uninhibited expression of emotion. Whether it's passion or frustration, fans build tribes, and their opinions will flair based on what they perceive to be right or wrong, regardless of what is actually rational to consider. I will even go so far to argue that the mere existence of fandoms (as we recognize them today) is inherently irrational.

What is NOT subjective though is there being a connection between the quality of the two things. And yeah, that goes both ways if there was anyone here saying that because they thought the promo was great they therefore knew that the show would be great as well. No one is saying that though because pretty much all the irrational arguments and reactions are coming from the far more emotionally driven camp of negativity.

You just haven't looked deep enough into the thread if you don't think that's been said :P

I'll remind you that Star Citizen Kenn is in this thread.

As for it not being a connection, there is a very clear connection that you're simply ignoring. The fact of the matter is, the mere existence of the Promo was insulting to some people. And some people took it personally. It was all about bringing in social media influencers who had little knowledge of Tolkien lore, and talking about how the show is progressive in its modernization and racial diversity. It colors the perception of who Amazon seems to want to market this show around, and what main points they want to promote the show on. Very little about Tolkien's actual legacy and the mythology he'd built.

You can argue as much as you want that there shouldn't be any connection, and no one should take a promo personally; but that's not the reality we live in. This happens quite often, and is as much a part of any fandom as anything else. It's a general rule that you don't insult the fans that you want watching your show, whether we're talking about the show itself or something external like a creator comment or promotional material. In general, fans are more likely to hold a grudge than merely walk away from something they have a strong passion of.

I mean even if we take a step out of RoP talk for a sec and just take a look at Blizzard's own history, and how many times they f'd up by doing something controversial that shakes up the entire fanbase and how they react to the games. Something like the Blizzchung fiasco ended up causing people to boycott in droves. Regardless if anyone here wishes to call that rational or irrational, it's our reality that fans end up reacting based on their emotions, because that's part of what being a fan is. It's basically an expression of passion.

[Adamas102]

What is 'reality'? It's only as relative to how you define it. And that's part of why your argument fringes on gatekeeping. You're defining what rationality means across the board, based on what you personally think makes sense.

Which is no different if someone said no one should have any fear of horror in movies because it's all fake. That reality is only relative to the person making that statement.

... reality is relative?

Whaaat the fuuuuuck...

How many times do I have to explain that it's not about the emotions that the promo or the show elicit. It's about making up connections that don't exist. Reality isn't relative in this case. And yeah, it's just as silly as using WoT to determine how you thought RoP would be (something that has been brought up COUNTLESS times in this thread) if you're not also going to use The Boys, Invincible, Reacher, etc to determing whether RoP was going to be good.

It'd be no different if we were talking about an actor/actress/showrunner/author making statements about real life politics and having fans have their enjoyment of the fiction affected by it as a result. We could also consider that to be irrational and have no connection, but in reality it all does connect and it does affect people even if we don't think it should. Like even right now, Wired Magazine gave out 1/10 ratings to Hogwarts Legacy on the basis of JK Rowling's real life comments and opinions. Is that right? Is that rational? Doesn't really matter, because my point is it happens, and it's real. Is it excusable? Is it agreeable? Doesn't matter to me, my point is it happened and it continues to happen, because this is our reality, the one that we live in right now.

So call them out! Make it a point of discussion if you feel like there's something to be said. Again, what's your endgame here? To make this forum a place where everyone just regurgitates whatever delusional ideas they have and no one is allowed to respond unless they agree wholeheartedly?

I'll remind you that Star Citizen Kenn is in this thread.

Was that the poster that was getting into arguments with equally dumb posters who were all trying to determine the quality of the show by tallying up good/bad reviews? Yeah, that argument was stupid as well. And it was met with equally dumb arguments on the opposite side so if that is indeed the same poster then it's kind of a wash on that one. The majority of the positive posts I noticed were on the order of "it was fine, not that bad, could have improved in these aspects, etc". Meanwhile I could list out about a dozen posters who were decrying the show before it ever aired based on nothing but racist and anti-diversity narratives.

I mean even if we take a step out of RoP talk for a sec and just take a look at Blizzard's own history, and how many times they f'd up by doing something controversial that shakes up the entire fanbase and how they react to the games. Something like the Blizzchung fiasco ended up causing people to boycott in droves. Regardless if anyone here wishes to call that rational or irrational, it's our reality that fans end up reacting based on their emotions, because that's part of what being a fan is. It's basically an expression of passion.

But that's not the same at all. Boycotting the game because of the Blizzchung thing didn't involve people suddenly saying "hey Blizzard did this shitty thing over here, therefore the game that I've been playing is also now suddenly shitty". No, it was simply a decision on whether or not to support the product over here because of what the company did over there. You see the difference?

If someone said "I didn't like what Amazon did with this promo therefore I'm not going to support their product" that makes sense. The irrational response was for people to essentially say "I don't like this Amazon product so I'm just going to assume that this other Amazon product that involves none of the same people is also bad".

A more apt analogy would be to argue that because of the Blizzchung thing, you KNOW that Diablo 4 is going to suck. That's literally what is being said with "super fans" and "RoP" being substituted with two other unconnected things. Sure they both involve Blizzard, but no one who had a hand in one had a hand in the other. There is no connection. I don't know how to make it any easier to understand.

If YOU don't want to call people out on saying ridiculous things that's up to you, but if you think it's just wrong to point out the irrationality of someone saying something along the lines of "well, WC3 Reforged fucking sucked so I knew Dragonflight was going to blow chunks" then maybe you shouldn't frequent forums/threads like this. Maybe.