Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

There’s a lot here that’s similar to the sequel trilogy. They obviously got a lot of interest because STAR WARS but they were not good and greatly dampened fan enthusiasm for more. LOTR is in the early stages of this where reception is not great but the failure isn’t as obvious as it will be in a few years because they got a lot of interest.

Star Wars has mostly moved into ignoring the sequels and constantly just fleshing out the events during the first 6 movies. That feels like what might hopefully happen to RoP - it becomes a black mark that everyone eventually ignores.

It's hard to conceptualize any sort of 'future failure' though, since failure and success are relative in retrospect, not really applicable when it hasn't happened yet.

I could just as much say that Game of Thrones S8 screwed the pooch, and squandered any good faith the fans have in future content. But we can clearly see that it hasn't phased the reception of House of Dragons, at all. Or how the Last Jedi squandered the good faith fans had in the movies, but even the mediocre Rise of Skywalker continued to make bank.

I personally think fans are quite resilient to bullshit, and are more willing to consume content (when there is a lack of it) over abstaining from potential 'failure'. And there's always the case that the fans don't really know what they want, and will even skip over stuff that they should be watching. Like, Andor is the way superior show over Book of Boba Fett or Obi-Wan, but its numbers are no where close to that because fans generally have little interest in a show following 'that one dude from Rogue One' as compared to shows about a Bounty Hunter or Jedi. So in a way, even good shows like Andor can be considered 'failures' when it comes to lacking that mass appeal, while shows like Obi-wan and Book of Boba Fett could be seen as being more successful, even though the shows themselves were mediocre at best.

The casual fanbase mostly doesn't care about the same things that the hardcore fans do. And Rings of Power is successful due to the overwhelming casual audience, the people who generally don't know (or care) about Tolkien/Middle Earth mythology in the books. Whether that continues to be the case for a S2, only time will tell.

[rhorle]

Star Wars has mostly moved into ignoring the sequels and constantly just fleshing out the events during the first 6 movies. That feels like what might hopefully happen to RoP - it becomes a black mark that everyone eventually ignores.

That is because Star Wars is "done" with the Skywalker Saga and actively developing shows and movies for the High Republic and Old Republic. They did the same thing when actively developing for the Clone Wars and prequels. They ignored the OT.

Also how can fan enthusiasm be dampened when even someone as yourself will hate watch and hate watch a season 2? All of these "fans" like to talk how X ruined Y and blah blah blah but in the end they still consume the content anyways. Just like now you are saying "in a decade the failure will be clear!!!". You are just continually moving the goal posts to somehow justify the hate even just for the sake of it.

[Adamas102]

You obviously don't understand how a fandom works if you think one bad promotional is gonna stop long-standing Tolkien fans who want to see a good TV series based in Middle Earth. It's not, and that's part of the problem with the Superfans promo. Who was it made for? Obviously the casual audience, since none of the Superfans were actual Tolkien fans at all and had practically zero knowledge about Middle Earth and its mythology outside 'having watched the movies'. But casual audiences wouldn't care about watching a 'Superfans' promo either, they'd just be the casual audience. So what we have are the fans who are anticipating Rings of Power and a Middle Earth-based TV series watching this abomination. That's what happened.

A bad promo isn't going to stop fans passion for material they hold dear to them. It's just gonna be a sore spot that will be pointed out. It's too early to look back on and laugh at, like the 70's Star Wars Holiday specials. It's still a fresh wound, like the Star Wars sequel trilogy.

Well, first off you can go ahead and drop your fandom gatekeeping in suggesting what "real fans" are meant to do or know. Seriously, fuck off with that shit. Neither you nor anyone else in this thread dictates requirements for being a Tolkien fan.

There was a lot of marketing material meant to hype up the series (as is the case with all big shows/movies). I certainly watched a couple of trailers leading up to the release, but that was about it. I guarantee you that all the posters that latched onto this particular promo did NOT watch every single cast appearance on late night shows, or read every single article that was published, or every single production promo. No, instead they rabidly locked onto the one marketing promo that best encapsulated their preemptive dislike of the show. I'm sure we can go back and see that most of these posters were already decrying the show from the moment the cast was revealed.

The show certainly wasn't perfect, but it's laughable that this fucking promo, which may indeed be the cringiest promo every made (I don't know, still don't care to watch it), is still referenced incessantly as something pivotal to the series itself or of any importance whatsoever.

[Rennadrel]

You obviously don't understand how a fandom works if you think one bad promotional is gonna stop long-standing Tolkien fans who want to see a good TV series based in Middle Earth. It's not, and that's part of the problem with the Superfans promo. Who was it made for? Obviously the casual audience, since none of the Superfans were actual Tolkien fans at all and had practically zero knowledge about Middle Earth and its mythology outside 'having watched the movies'. But casual audiences wouldn't care about watching a 'Superfans' promo either, they'd just be the casual audience. So what we have are the fans who are anticipating Rings of Power and a Middle Earth-based TV series watching this abomination. That's what happened.

A bad promo isn't going to stop fans passion for material they hold dear to them. It's just gonna be a sore spot that will be pointed out. It's too early to look back on and laugh at, like the 70's Star Wars Holiday specials. It's still a fresh wound, like the Star Wars sequel trilogy.

The whole superfans thing was just a bunch of loser zoomers who had clearly never read the books and just wanted to bitch about Peter Jackson using a cast of characters who happened to represent the world as he saw it at the time, and that was a world rooted in British folklore.

[Triceron]

Well, first off you can go ahead and drop your fandom gatekeeping in suggesting what "real fans" are meant to do or know. Seriously, fuck off with that shit. Neither you nor anyone else in this thread dictates

Sorry if you feel butthurt about having it not apply to you. Not my problem. Not once did I use the word 'real fans', so I don't know why you're even using that as an argument. Sounds like a strawman argument to me, really.

If you don't like it, feel free to spend your precious time doing something else. Why waste our time complaining, right? I'm surely not dictating your reason to be here merely by responding to you.

There was a lot of marketing material meant to hype up the series (as is the case with all big shows/movies). I certainly watched a couple of trailers leading up to the release, but that was about it. I guarantee you that all the posters that latched onto this particular promo did NOT watch every single cast appearance on late night shows, or read every single article that was published, or every single production promo. No, instead they rabidly locked onto the one marketing promo that best encapsulated their preemptive dislike of the show. I'm sure we can go back and see that most of these posters were already decrying the show from the moment the cast was revealed.

What does that matter? I don't see the relevance. I could say there are posters here ready to defend the show before it even came out, no matter how bad it was. Wouldn't be any different would it? People are free to have their biases.

The show certainly wasn't perfect, but it's laughable that this fucking promo, which may indeed be the cringiest promo every made (I don't know, still don't care to watch it), is still referenced incessantly as something pivotal to the series itself or of any importance whatsoever.

I mean you say don't gatekeep the fandom, but you pretty much are doing that right here. Spaghettimonk only made a passing reference about it, while we're here because you decided to stir the pot about how irrelevant you think it is for anyone to complain about. That's also gatekeeping. If it ain't that important to you, you wouldn't have talked about it at all. And we wouldn't be here. It was literally a passing mention in his post. What happened instead was you decided to stir a hornet's nest, for whatever reason you decided it was necessary. And that's why Rogoth came out of nowhere with his response to you. He hadn't really been in the thread for quite some time.

All I'm pointing out is why people are still sore about it. I couldn't care less about the promo. That doesn't mean it's not important to them, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be important at all.

[Adamas102]

Sorry if you feel butthurt about having it not apply to you. Not my problem. Not once did I use the word 'real fans', so I don't know why you're even using that as an argument. Sounds like a strawman argument to me, really.

What? Having what not apply to me? The line you quoted had nothing to do with me personally so what are you talking about here?

And don't play dumb. "Since none of the Superfans were actual Tolkien fans at all" is very much you trying to dictate who the "real fans" are.

Spaghettimonk only made a passing reference about it, while we're here because you decided to stir the pot about how irrelevant you think it is for anyone to complain about.

All I'm pointing out is why people are still sore about it. I couldn't care less about the promo. That doesn't mean it's not important to them, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be important at all.

Talk about a fucking straw man. We're here because YOU decided to take it upon yourself to explain how "passionate fans" should act.

Spaghetti made a passing reference? No. He said that promo specifically (and a completely different, unconnected show) was what made him expect that RoP would be bad. The conversation between us was over last page after he essentially said that he's fine watching things he doesn't really enjoy.

And lets not forget that the post of mine YOU responded to was actually referencing a different poster. One who wrote a bizarre 2,000 word essay on the promo in question.

I know you're one of those people who likes to think that all opinions are equal, and if someone says something is important then no one can say it isn't. No, that's not how things work. Amazon promoting their own product using random people reacting to [checks notes] a teaser trailer objectively has no bearing on the quality of the show itself. People can say whatever they want about how it made them decide the show would be bad, and I have no issue pointing out how absurd that is.

Hate the promo because it's weird and cringey? Fine. Hate the show because it wasn't what you wanted/expected? Fine. Talk about how the quality of the promo had anything to do with the quality of the show? Yeah, I'll point out how silly that is. Spaghetti shrugged it off. Rogoth lost his fucking mind (as per usual). And you jumped in... why?

[rogoth]

What? Having what not apply to me? The line you quoted had nothing to do with me personally so what are you talking about here?

And don't play dumb. "Since none of the Superfans were actual Tolkien fans at all" is very much you trying to dictate who the "real fans" are.



Talk about a fucking straw man. We're here because YOU decided to take it upon yourself to explain how "passionate fans" should act.

Spaghetti made a passing reference? No. He said that promo specifically (and a completely different, unconnected show) was what made him expect that RoP would be bad. The conversation between us was over last page after he essentially said that he's fine watching things he doesn't really enjoy.

And lets not forget that the post of mine YOU responded to was actually referencing a different poster. One who wrote a bizarre 2,000 word essay on the promo in question.

I know you're one of those people who likes to think that all opinions are equal, and if someone says something is important then no one can say it isn't. No, that's not how things work. Amazon promoting their own product using random people reacting to [checks notes] a teaser trailer objectively has no bearing on the quality of the show itself. People can say whatever they want about how it made them decide the show would be bad, and I have no issue pointing out how absurd that is.

Hate the promo because it's weird and cringey? Fine. Hate the show because it wasn't what you wanted/expected? Fine. Talk about how the quality of the promo had anything to do with the quality of the show? Yeah, I'll point out how silly that is. Spaghetti shrugged it off. Rogoth lost his fucking mind (as per usual). And you jumped in... why?

lets just address your asinine points shall we:

first off, it's categorical fact that these 'superfans' are not in anyway shape or form 'Tolkien fans', not only is their entire portfolio of content devoid of ANYTHING relating to middle earth, in the instance of the 'straight black girl social justice warrior', she put a video on instagram where she was asked the question 'are you gonna watch rings of power?' and she said that she was having too much fun watching house of the dragon and that if she had time/felt like it, she would wait until rings of power had fully released and binge it then, leaving off with: quote: 'rings of power is gonna need to do something special if it's gonna beat house of the dragon hahahahaha'.

you're conflating gatekeeping to calling out instagram 'influencers' who are there paid to do a job who have no interest in the material they are reviewing and are there purely to tick a box on a sheet of paper to appeal to whichever minorities the company (in this case Amazon) have designated as important groups to appeal to, it's got nothing to do with saying who 'real fans' are because these clowns in this video are not fans, the only knowledge they have of the source material is what they have picked up through social osmosis and maybe as a side effect of what the PJ movies brought to the table, along with what they were coached and directed to say because it's VERY FUCKING CLEAR that the 'gay black man' in this video wasn't sure at all about what he was saying and was constantly looking at or near the camera to get some sort of off screen recognition from the director that he was doing ok.

once again, this entire post from you smacks of ignorance and stupidity, why?, because you stated clearly you have no interest in watching or engaging with the material, yet you feel the need to comment on the subject matter as if you have a wealth of knowledge about it, when in fact you don't and every time you 'open your mouth' a mess of babble falls out all over the place with no meaning or substance, the only thing your words are doing is as stated is 'stirring the pot' and 'wasting bandwidth' because you have no point, it's all just glorified ad hominem bullshit.

it's actually enlightening to me just how difficult it is for your American brain to ratify what is going on here, it's honestly interesting to me to see someone so clearly struggling to understand something and fight as hard as they can to justify their point while simultaneously failing to grasp why people don't agree with them in the first place.

Lastly, and this is actually something important and i hope it will actually educate you but i suspect you will just ignore it because that's what you do, but i'll try to illustrate the point anyway:

the 'quality' of this 'promo' had and has DIRECT CORRELATION to the 'quality' of the show, this promo was clearly staged, badly directed, badly cast and badly presented, would you know it, that's EXACTLY HOW THE SHOW TURNED OUT, almost a carbon copy in fact it's actually scary at just how similar in 'quality' these 'superfans' videos were to the 'quality' of the overall production as a whole and actually set the tone for what to expect from this raging dumpster fire of a project.

but of course, you haven't watched these videos, you don't know the scope of anything because you fail to grasp the concept, as a result of that you then fail to understand the underlying issues, and as a result of that, we are brought to this conclusion that you are making nothing but asinine comments based on flawed information that have no bearing on reality except that which causes you're deluded way of thinking, and in a thread on a fan site which is approaching 10,000 interactions, you are in the distinct minority of people defending this show, and trying to defend the foundation it is built upon, which is a woke disaster that focussed on casting people based on their skin colour instead of casting people that made sense to the lore, a show that focussed on tearing up the source material, rewriting it and bastardising it so badly as to be unrecognisable to the original beloved work, a show so universally hated in all measurable metrics yet is still being touted as a 'success' because some manager in a suit high up decided to spin it that way instead of actually reporting things as they are, but by all means keep defending this travesty, keep living in your little American bubble of delusion, i'm sure nothing could possibly go wrong from it.

[Triceron]

Talk about a fucking straw man. We're here because YOU decided to take it upon yourself to explain how "passionate fans" should act.

Er, no?

No where did I ever imply how anyone should act. I explained why certain people were reacting to the promos when you personally felt it was unimportant. The context of my reply is about how fans reacted to the promo, and how one bad promo wouldn't have stopped these long-time fans from watching the show. It's not a statement on how all fans should act.

You're the one strawmanning this into a statement about how fans should act, not me. Take a step back and read everything I wrote in my response without the bullshit filter you're trying to apply to it.

Hate the promo because it's weird and cringey? Fine. Hate the show because it wasn't what you wanted/expected? Fine. Talk about how the quality of the promo had anything to do with the quality of the show? Yeah, I'll point out how silly that is. Spaghetti shrugged it off. Rogoth lost his fucking mind (as per usual). And you jumped in... why?

Because you're doing the exact thing you tried attacking me of - dictating how fans should react. This is one of your quotes:

"If you’re a fan of the books or the movies, that doesn’t mean you should feel compelled to watch something completely different just because it’s related (if you’ve already pretty much decided you weren’t going to enjoy it)."

Well how would you know what other fans should or shouldn't do? You're not other fans.

You see? This is the double standard you're applying here. So honestly, who are you actually mad at here?

I'm not the one trying to dismiss anyone's opinion. You are. I'm not the one making a statement on how people should be reacting. You are. Let's make this very clear.

Whether or not you think it's silly or not is up to you, and that's fine. But just because it's unimportant to you is not due cause to imply it's unimportant to anyone else. That's the simple truth of the matter.

I know you're one of those people who likes to think that all opinions are equal, and if someone says something is important then no one can say it isn't. No, that's not how things work

The way it works is if someone says it's important to them, then it's important to them. If someone feels it's not important to them, then it's not important to them. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and it doesn't affect anyone else's judgement.

No one is saying 'if it's important then no one can say it isn't'. All I've done was present that there are people who consider it important to them. At no point did I say anyone has to agree with them; I don't think the promo was important at all. I don't think there is any reason to dismiss the importance of it to someone else just because I personally don't share their opinion. I can understand why they feel the way they do, even if I don't agree with their sentiment.

The opposite is actually happening right now, where you're proclaiming it to be unimportant, and expect everyone to agree. Well, I agree the promo was unimportant. But I don't think everyone else needs to agree. People have their own reasons for having their own opinions, fans have their reasons for acting in ways that you feel they shouldn't have to. I'm not sure why you see this as a problem. There isn't any universal way any fan should or shouldn't be acting.

[Adamas102]

/snip

It's not a double standard because you're literally doing nothing but arguing in favor of irrationality.

A compulsion (as an irresistible urge) is by definition irrational. People SHOULDN'T feel compelled to do things they don't want to do when there are no outside pressures acting on them. Whether or not they're long time fans is irrelevant. Not every long term fan feels compelled to guzzle down any and all content thrown their way so I wouldn't say it's the default position to not be discerning when it comes to what content fans consume. Unless you want to argue that all (or even most) fans are to some extent crazy and can't be expected to act rationally then there should be no problem in pointing out that people shouldn't feel the need to watch something that they feel they won't enjoy.

Additionally, thinking that a promotional piece that was created completely separately from the subject it's promoting is intrinsically connected in quality is also irrational. It's pretty much on the same level as people who make day to day decisions based on astrology or similar things which are disconnected from reality. People do it. And they FEEL like it's important. But they're acting irrationally based on perceived connections that don't exist. Just because they FEEL like those connections exist doesn't make it true. Hell, even still you have rogoth above you raging in all caps about how the quality of the promo is "directly correlated" to the show itself which is of course absurd given that we know that no one involved in the production of one would have been involved in the production of the other.

But hey, if the hill you want to die on is "stop telling people to think/act rationally" then so be it. It's definitely not a good look for the fandom when you encourage them to be impulsive, delusional, and/or irrational.

[Triceron]

It's not a double standard because you're literally doing nothing but arguing in favor of irrationality.

It's a double standard because your argument is also irrational. We're ultimately talking about how people feel and were affected by something that displeased them, so an appeal to pure rational logic isn't applicable when we're talking about people's reactions and having their perceptions colored by things they consider to be wrong.

It'd be just as ridiculous if you were trying to convince me that people shouldn't be scared of watching horror movies because they're not real. Rationality doesn't really apply here, since we're talking about an emotional reaction coloring an opinion.

But hey, if the hill you want to die on is "stop telling people to think/act rationally" then so be it. It's definitely not a good look for the fandom when you encourage them to be impulsive, delusional, and/or irrational.

You said it yourself - no reason for anyone to dictate what a fandom should or shouldn't do. Fandoms are filled with irrationality. You can argue that you think that fans should be rational, and I could agree with your sentiment. It's none the less relevant to mention that rationality is quite subjective, and relative to the understanding of the person making the judgement. Just like if one were to argue that a fear of fake blood/gore/violence is considered irrational, it's still a fact that there are many people who are afraid or disgusted by it, regardless of whether one believes it to be rational or not. Emotional responses, for the most part, aren't dictated by rationality.

Ultimately, opinions don't have to be rationalized in ways that makes sense to me and you. If someone doesn't like the show because it's not made by Peter Jackson, calling it an irrational reason doesn't change the opinion that's been presented. It's not dismissible just because you don't happen to agree. It doesn't mean the opinion is actually irrational, it just means you personally perceive it to not make sense.

Implying that only rational actions should be considered is literally gatekeeping. Most opinions and reactions to 'art' tend to come from emotional response or instinct/feeling more than on the grounds of rationality and logic. I mean look at how many people in the world often confuse actors in real life for the characters they play. We can call that reaction irrational, but it happens nonetheless. And my argument isn't about whether it should or shouldn't happen; I'm quite agnostic about how fans choose to act. I'm merely pointing out that it does happen, and it's just a part of how fandoms are. Quite literally, there's nothing rational about fandom in general; what can we say is rational about getting upset over other people expressing their opinions over fictional stories on message boards dedicated to mass-multiplayer gaming? It doesn't matter if it's rational or not, it happens, and it's a part of how fandoms are in general.

What you consider delusion is just your opinion on the matter. Person X could consider any form of fanfiction or people creating it to be delusional or irrational. It doesn't really mean anything overall, since fan fiction is a part of fandoms whether anyone believes it to be sensible or not. And whether it's really 'delusional' is really in the eye of the beholder, which merely colors one's bias when they express their judgement. There's no universal authority that regards what is and isn't rational about fandoms and how they react. And anyone who feigns authority is attempting to be a gatekeeper.

[Adamas102]

It's a double standard because your argument is also irrational.

Ah. So now it's irrational to point out how people aren't thinking/acting rationally about something. Wow... Real deep thoughts there, buddy.

Ineffective? Maybe. But irrational? Are you sure you know what these words mean or is this just a really long shot attempt at obfuscating the actual argument?

Pointing out HOW people are being irrational isn't the same as ORDERING them to be a certain way. "You should/shouldn't do that" isn't an order, it's a suggestion. And yeah, acting rationally typically IS better than acting irrationally, but I'm under no illusion that I'm here to tell random people what they HAVE to do.

And again, it doesn't matter how someone FEELS about something if it isn't in line with reality. It seems like you're completely lost here if you think that I'm telling people not to have feelings, opinions, or emotions. That's not the case at all. Like I said (already, VERY clearly) people can have whatever reaction they want to the promo and to the show. Pointing out the absurdity of making connections that don't exist doesn't negate those feelings, and people thinking those connections exist doesn't make it reality (much less something that can't be challenged).

You keep bringing up a comparison to people liking the show and ignoring any faults, but THAT'S. NOT. BEING. DISCUSSED. It's irrelevant. I don't care if people liked the show or disliked the show. I don't care if people liked the promo or disliked the promo. That's all subject to individual appeal and perception. What is NOT subjective though is there being a connection between the quality of the two things. And yeah, that goes both ways if there was anyone here saying that because they thought the promo was great they therefore knew that the show would be great as well. No one is saying that though because pretty much all the irrational arguments and reactions are coming from the far more emotionally driven camp of negativity.

[Triceron]

Pointing out HOW people are being irrational isn't the same as ORDERING them to be a certain way. "You should/shouldn't do that" isn't an order, it's a suggestion. And yeah, acting rationally typically IS better than acting irrationally, but I'm under no illusion that I'm here to tell random people what they HAVE to do.

I'm not either, which is why I'm confused why you keep bringing this up as an argument.

No one is appealing to tell anyone what to do. What does this have to do with anything?

And again, it doesn't matter how someone FEELS about something if it isn't in line with reality.

What is 'reality'? It's only as relative to how you define it. And that's part of why your argument fringes on gatekeeping. You're defining what rationality means across the board, based on what you personally think makes sense.

Which is no different if someone said no one should have any fear of horror in movies because it's all fake. That reality is only relative to the person making that statement.

It seems like you're completely lost here if you think that I'm telling people not to have feelings, opinions, or emotions. That's not the case at all. Like I said (already, VERY clearly) people can have whatever reaction they want to the promo and to the show. Pointing out the absurdity of making connections that don't exist doesn't negate those feelings, and people thinking those connections exist doesn't make it reality (much less something that can't be challenged).

It makes it real to them, which is why there is a reaction at all.

There's plenty of external factors that affect one's perception of a show. Whether anyone considers the connections to be rational or not doesn't really matter.

It'd be no different if we were talking about an actor/actress/showrunner/author making statements about real life politics and having fans have their enjoyment of the fiction affected by it as a result. We could also consider that to be irrational and have no connection, but in reality it all does connect and it does affect people even if we don't think it should. Like even right now, Wired Magazine gave out 1/10 ratings to Hogwarts Legacy on the basis of JK Rowling's real life comments and opinions. Is that right? Is that rational? Doesn't really matter, because my point is it happens, and it's real. Is it excusable? Is it agreeable? Doesn't matter to me, my point is it happened and it continues to happen, because this is our reality, the one that we live in right now.

I mean, to be very blatantly honest here, most of our social media and how fandoms exist today is perpetuated purely by uninhibited expression of emotion. Whether it's passion or frustration, fans build tribes, and their opinions will flair based on what they perceive to be right or wrong, regardless of what is actually rational to consider. I will even go so far to argue that the mere existence of fandoms (as we recognize them today) is inherently irrational.

What is NOT subjective though is there being a connection between the quality of the two things. And yeah, that goes both ways if there was anyone here saying that because they thought the promo was great they therefore knew that the show would be great as well. No one is saying that though because pretty much all the irrational arguments and reactions are coming from the far more emotionally driven camp of negativity.

You just haven't looked deep enough into the thread if you don't think that's been said :P

I'll remind you that Star Citizen Kenn is in this thread.

As for it not being a connection, there is a very clear connection that you're simply ignoring. The fact of the matter is, the mere existence of the Promo was insulting to some people. And some people took it personally. It was all about bringing in social media influencers who had little knowledge of Tolkien lore, and talking about how the show is progressive in its modernization and racial diversity. It colors the perception of who Amazon seems to want to market this show around, and what main points they want to promote the show on. Very little about Tolkien's actual legacy and the mythology he'd built.

You can argue as much as you want that there shouldn't be any connection, and no one should take a promo personally; but that's not the reality we live in. This happens quite often, and is as much a part of any fandom as anything else. It's a general rule that you don't insult the fans that you want watching your show, whether we're talking about the show itself or something external like a creator comment or promotional material. In general, fans are more likely to hold a grudge than merely walk away from something they have a strong passion of.

I mean even if we take a step out of RoP talk for a sec and just take a look at Blizzard's own history, and how many times they f'd up by doing something controversial that shakes up the entire fanbase and how they react to the games. Something like the Blizzchung fiasco ended up causing people to boycott in droves. Regardless if anyone here wishes to call that rational or irrational, it's our reality that fans end up reacting based on their emotions, because that's part of what being a fan is. It's basically an expression of passion.

[Adamas102]

What is 'reality'? It's only as relative to how you define it. And that's part of why your argument fringes on gatekeeping. You're defining what rationality means across the board, based on what you personally think makes sense.

Which is no different if someone said no one should have any fear of horror in movies because it's all fake. That reality is only relative to the person making that statement.

... reality is relative?

Whaaat the fuuuuuck...

How many times do I have to explain that it's not about the emotions that the promo or the show elicit. It's about making up connections that don't exist. Reality isn't relative in this case. And yeah, it's just as silly as using WoT to determine how you thought RoP would be (something that has been brought up COUNTLESS times in this thread) if you're not also going to use The Boys, Invincible, Reacher, etc to determing whether RoP was going to be good.

It'd be no different if we were talking about an actor/actress/showrunner/author making statements about real life politics and having fans have their enjoyment of the fiction affected by it as a result. We could also consider that to be irrational and have no connection, but in reality it all does connect and it does affect people even if we don't think it should. Like even right now, Wired Magazine gave out 1/10 ratings to Hogwarts Legacy on the basis of JK Rowling's real life comments and opinions. Is that right? Is that rational? Doesn't really matter, because my point is it happens, and it's real. Is it excusable? Is it agreeable? Doesn't matter to me, my point is it happened and it continues to happen, because this is our reality, the one that we live in right now.

So call them out! Make it a point of discussion if you feel like there's something to be said. Again, what's your endgame here? To make this forum a place where everyone just regurgitates whatever delusional ideas they have and no one is allowed to respond unless they agree wholeheartedly?

I'll remind you that Star Citizen Kenn is in this thread.

Was that the poster that was getting into arguments with equally dumb posters who were all trying to determine the quality of the show by tallying up good/bad reviews? Yeah, that argument was stupid as well. And it was met with equally dumb arguments on the opposite side so if that is indeed the same poster then it's kind of a wash on that one. The majority of the positive posts I noticed were on the order of "it was fine, not that bad, could have improved in these aspects, etc". Meanwhile I could list out about a dozen posters who were decrying the show before it ever aired based on nothing but racist and anti-diversity narratives.

I mean even if we take a step out of RoP talk for a sec and just take a look at Blizzard's own history, and how many times they f'd up by doing something controversial that shakes up the entire fanbase and how they react to the games. Something like the Blizzchung fiasco ended up causing people to boycott in droves. Regardless if anyone here wishes to call that rational or irrational, it's our reality that fans end up reacting based on their emotions, because that's part of what being a fan is. It's basically an expression of passion.

But that's not the same at all. Boycotting the game because of the Blizzchung thing didn't involve people suddenly saying "hey Blizzard did this shitty thing over here, therefore the game that I've been playing is also now suddenly shitty". No, it was simply a decision on whether or not to support the product over here because of what the company did over there. You see the difference?

If someone said "I didn't like what Amazon did with this promo therefore I'm not going to support their product" that makes sense. The irrational response was for people to essentially say "I don't like this Amazon product so I'm just going to assume that this other Amazon product that involves none of the same people is also bad".

A more apt analogy would be to argue that because of the Blizzchung thing, you KNOW that Diablo 4 is going to suck. That's literally what is being said with "super fans" and "RoP" being substituted with two other unconnected things. Sure they both involve Blizzard, but no one who had a hand in one had a hand in the other. There is no connection. I don't know how to make it any easier to understand.

If YOU don't want to call people out on saying ridiculous things that's up to you, but if you think it's just wrong to point out the irrationality of someone saying something along the lines of "well, WC3 Reforged fucking sucked so I knew Dragonflight was going to blow chunks" then maybe you shouldn't frequent forums/threads like this. Maybe.

[bledgor]

...

Mate just so you know Adamas is like Kenn/rhole lite. Have fun with that argument.

[Adamas102]

Mate just so you know Adamas is like Kenn/rhole lite. Have fun with that argument.

"We want our echo chamber!", he screams...

That's funny though, because I kind of think of you as rogoth lite. Equally bad takes but less likely to rage out and get banned.

[Triceron]

... reality is relative?

Whaaat the fuuuuuck...

Perception of reality is relative.

Your perception of reality is relative to your own experiences, because you can't even fathom the concept of something that exists outside your frame of mind.

For example, someone who lives in Japan, a country with a conservative culture towards sports fandom, might not be aware of how sports fandom is wildly different in other countries. In Argentina, football (Soccer) games are so rowdy that they literally have police barricades outside the stadium, set up to prevent potential riots. Fans sit on opposite ends of the stadiums with no one sitting in between for risk of getting hit by things thrown by either side. This is what I mean by reality is relative. A sports fan in Japan has a different perception of 'Sports fandom' than a sports fan in Argentina. Their realities are relative to their experiences.

How many times do I have to explain that it's not about the emotions that the promo or the show elicit. It's about making up connections that don't exist.

All you're doing is denying the existence of connections you simply refuse to acknowledge or accept as being real. That's all.

It's you literally ignoring the fact that people react emotionally to things that you don't consider to be worth getting upset about. You don't see the connection because you have a personal bias that doesn't regard any reason for the connection to be made rationally. That is your argument.

Which is like trying to convince me that your buddy shouldn't be hung up on his ex-girlfriend after they've broken up for over 5 years, and you can't fathom what rational sense there is in him having that hangup. Well, it's because you don't understand the underlying emotional connection that was created and broken, and how that sentiment influences a person's behaviour and may cause them to act or speak irrationally. As I said, just because you choose not to regard a connection doesn't mean there isn't one. There just isn't any connection that makes sense rationally to you.

But that's not the same at all. Boycotting the game because of the Blizzchung thing didn't involve people suddenly saying "hey Blizzard did this shitty thing over here, therefore the game that I've been playing is also now suddenly shitty". No, it was simply a decision on whether or not to support the product over here because of what the company did over there. You see the difference?

Both happened.

There was no singular, universal reaction to the Blizzchung thing that caused a singular, rational response. Some people acted in the way you described. Some people found all sorts of reasons to start hating a game that they were enjoying just fine moments before.

And this is human nature. It's called disassociation. Same kinda psychological behaviour we see in people who go through bad breakups and start hating on the person they once loved. People begin to find flaws where there were none. People go out of their way to trash a game they once loved, saying things like 'the game was never good' to vindicate their own actions.

There isn't really a difference, because it happens regardless of whether you consider it to be rational or irrational. It oftentimes happens as a reaction to an emotional response. If anything, your argument would be in favour of people not reacting at all and 'consider the game and the situation outside to be two different things', which isn't universally applicable. Some people were vocally trashing the games to vindicate their own reactions to a situation that upset them. and that's a perfectly normal response to have.

If someone said "I didn't like what Amazon did with this promo therefore I'm not going to support their product" that makes sense. The irrational response was for people to essentially say "I don't like this Amazon product so I'm just going to assume that this other Amazon product that involves none of the same people is also bad".

That doesn't sound irrational to me at all, considering both of them are Amazon products. Doesn't matter if it involves none of the same people, it's still part the same brand and company, and people make assumptions based on their personal experiences with brand recognition all the time. In this case, we're talking about people who aren't comfortable in supporting a company that, in their experience, offered products they didn't like, and expecting similar results in the future.

Overall, I think it's a flimsy example you gave. I don't think there is any blanket 'rationality' to apply to these case-by-case scenarios.

If YOU don't want to call people out on saying ridiculous things that's up to you, but if you think it's just wrong to point out the irrationality of someone saying something along the lines of "well, WC3 Reforged fucking sucked so I knew Dragonflight was going to blow chunks" then maybe you shouldn't frequent forums/threads like this. Maybe.

I'm not the one dismissing anything for being irrational, because like I said, the entire topic of fandom is rooted in irrationality.

You realize that the word 'Fan' is a modern contraction of the word 'Fanatic', right? The terminology isn't defined by rational behaviour.

If we're talking about fandom, then we're talking about quite an extreme form of expression prone to bias and irrationality that is considered quite normal in our culture... It's basically saying let's call people out for being fans.

If someone thinks Reforged sucks and it will result in Diablo Immortal being bad, would they be wrong? In a certain perspective, there is a connection, because the root of these problems are tied to Blizzard's modern lack of quality control in their products; one example being a corporate mandate to push out products in an unfinished state. That would be a key connection which you might not be willing to recognize. And if you're not willing to recognize any connection between Reforged and Dragonflight, I can understand why you would consider it completely unconnected and irrational.

I see this example as being about one's trust in a company's adherence to quality. That's merely illustrating a bias, and that's completely normal.

You're coming from a perspective that believes irrationality to be wrong. If we extrapolate it enough, eventually we just come to the point where you might as well be saying you think opinion is wrong, because opinion is ultimately rooted in bias/irrationality in some way. At some base level, our opinions are a culmination of rational thought and emotional expression (cognitive bias), which can't be separated in a way that becomes truly free of all biases. This is why I think the argument of irrationality being wrong is ultimately flawed, because irrationality is a part of opinion and expression.

Ridiculousness is subjective, so by calling people out for being ridiculous is more an expression of your own personal opinion and world view than anything. It's a product of your own bias to determine that (any level of) irrationality or ridiculousness is inherently wrong. I would say it's merely human nature. Even regarding this topic, the simple matter of being a fan is itself rooted in 'ridiculous' irrationality.

[bledgor]

"We want our echo chamber!", he screams...

That's funny though, because I kind of think of you as rogoth lite. Equally bad takes but less likely to rage out and get banned.

I can 100% guarantee you haven't actually read any of my critiques of the show, I am not wanting an echo chamber (that is you), I want competent people to argue against who use logic.

You seem allergic to logic much like Kenn and Rhole (which is my issue with them, not them liking the show), hence why 99% of the time I just ignore you/them. Which is the smart thing to do, so going back to that.

[Adamas102]

Which is like trying to convince me that your buddy shouldn't be hung up on his ex-girlfriend after they've broken up for over 5 years, and you can't fathom what rational sense there is in him having that hangup. Well, it's because you don't understand the underlying emotional connection that was created and betrayed, and how that sentiment influences a person's behaviour and can cause them to act irrationally. As I said, just because you choose not to regard a connection doesn't mean there isn't one. There just isn't any connection that makes sense rationally to you.

No, and since you seem to have a real difficulty with focusing on what I'm saying I'll make this even simpler. I mean, time and time again I've clearly acknowledged the emotional response. Like, literally in every single post. I can't fathom why you think that's a point of contention. But, again, to keep it simple:

An appropriate analogy for what is being discussed here using the framework you set above would be if your friend decided that ALL women were terrible people BECAUSE his ex broke up with him. The connection, which you are arguing is very much real, is the idea that whatever negative perception he has about his ex is justifiably applied to ALL women. No one in their right mind would agree with or encourage that mentality. I understand WHY someone like that would THINK all women are the same, but that doesn't change the FACT that such a statement is 100%, unequivocally, objectively FALSE.

The same would apply to any of the following statements:
- Blizzard did Blitzchung dirty so I KNOW that Diablo 4 is going to be shit because Blizzard
- I didn't really like Skyrim so I KNOW that the next WoW expansion is going to be a pile of ass because RPG's
- I had a bad breakup with my ex so I KNOW that all women suck because women
- Thor4 was a pretty shitty movie so I KNOW that The Flash is going to be a turd because comic book movies
- That "superfans" promo was super cringey so I KNOW the RoP show is going to be terrible because Amazon

I could go on and on making nonsensical comparisons that you apparently think are totally valid and no one should point out the obvious absurdity.

That doesn't sound irrational to me at all, considering both of them are Amazon products. Doesn't matter if it involves none of the same people, it's still part the same brand and company, and people make decisions based on brand recognition all the time. In this case, we're talking about people who aren't comfortable in supporting a company that, in their experience, offered products they didn't like . Seems quite rational to me.

Except it's not about brand recognition or sticking it to Amazon because most if not all of these posters would probably agree that those other Amazon produced shows I mentioned (Reacher, The Boys, Legend of Vox Machina, Invincible, etc) are decent to good. No, in this case it's a completely ARBITRARY decision, and again would be just as irrational/misguided/wrong as someone saying "Invincible is a really good Amazon produced adaptation so I KNOW that Rings of Power is going to be great". If everyone that had a negative reaction to the superfans promo decided to boycott ALL Amazon produced content then that is completely different, but that's obviously not the case here.

You realize that the word 'Fan' is a modern contraction of the word 'Fanatic', right?

Your argument is basically you don't think Fanatics are acting Rationally enough to be considered Fanatics. You understand how ridiculous this argument, right?

Yeah, that's where the term is derived from but the two don't mean the exact same thing. This kind of goes back to the idea of you trying to gatekeep by suggesting that to be a fan of something you have to think about it a certain way, react about it a certain way, know X amount of lore, etc. And yeah, I haven't called ANYONE'S "fan status" into question in any of these posts. YOU did (again, reference post #9464).

[Triceron]

I understand WHY someone like that would THINK all women are the same, but that doesn't change the FACT that such a statement is 100%, unequivocally, objectively FALSE.

It's unequivocally false to you, not to the person who feels that way. That's the point here. Are they factually wrong? No, because we aren't talking about facts, we are talking about expressed opinions. It is not a false opinion if they actually believe all women are terrible like their ex; it is a product of their own bias, and it is the framework of their own internal perception of reality and what they consider to be the truth. No difference if we're talking about any type of belief system. This discussion is rooted in perception and opinion; of which none are inherently or objectively wrong. We're not talking about someone calling grass red or saying the earth is flat. We're talking about opinions and reactions to things people are passionate/enthusiastic about, which is basically belief.

That is why your argument is flawed. There is nothing factual or objective about what you're trying to define as being factual or objective. We're talking about opinions.

And your criticism is rooted in how certain opinions are contradicting your understanding of rational behavior, and how you personally consider that to be irrational or ridiculous. And I will remind you, this is an expression of your own bias.

The same would apply to any of the following statements:
- Blizzard did Blitzchung dirty so I KNOW that Diablo 4 is going to be shit because Blizzard
- I didn't really like Skyrim so I KNOW that the next WoW expansion is going to be a pile of ass because RPG's
- I had a bad breakup with my ex so I KNOW that all women suck because women
- Thor4 was a pretty shitty movie so I KNOW that The Flash is going to be a turd because comic book movies
- That "superfans" promo was super cringey so I KNOW the RoP show is going to be terrible because Amazon

I could go on and on making nonsensical comparisons that you apparently think are totally valid and no one should point out the obvious absurdity.

Which are all perfectly fine examples of opinions people are allowed to have. That you believe they are irrational or absurd or nonsensical is merely your perception of their reactions, and that's just as much driven by your own biases as what you're trying to condemn them for. It's absurd and nonsensical for you to be upset or have any problem with anyone's choice to have an opinion that you may consider to be nonsensical. The fact you feel the need for this to be 'called out' is irrational.

Except it's not about brand recognition or sticking it to Amazon because most if not all of these posters would probably agree that those other Amazon produced shows I mentioned (Reacher, The Boys, Legend of Vox Machina, Invincible, etc) are decent to good. No, in this case it's a completely ARBITRARY decision, and again would be just as irrational/misguided/wrong as someone saying "Invincible is a really good Amazon produced adaptation so I KNOW that Rings of Power is going to be great". If everyone that had a negative reaction to the superfans promo decided to boycott ALL Amazon produced content then that is completely different, but that's obviously not the case here.

To be very frank, this analogy is all over the place and over-generalized. There's really nothing for me to comment on here, since I don't recognize anyone making this particular argument, nor do I have any interest in arguing over this particular strawman.

Yeah, that's where the term is derived from but the two don't mean the exact same thing. This kind of goes back to the idea of you trying to gatekeep by suggesting that to be a fan of something you have to think about it a certain way, react about it a certain way, know X amount of lore, etc. And yeah, I haven't called ANYONE'S "fan status" into question in any of these posts. YOU did (again, reference post #9464).

I never said anyone had to think or react a certain way. The context of my replies is presenting examples of actions that people have had and what reasons people might react the same way in a similar situation. At no point have I mandated anyone actually having to act or react the way in any certain way.

And yeah, I haven't called ANYONE'S "fan status" into question in any of these posts. YOU did (again, reference post #9464).

Yeah, because I was being facetious to your ridiculous attack, which you still seem to be projecting here. If I say 'fans act a certain way' it's not because they are expected to, but rather a point that there is historic precedence.

[rogoth]

It's unequivocally false to you, not to the person who feels that way. That's the point here. Are they factually wrong? No, because we aren't talking about facts, we are talking about expressed opinions. It is not a false opinion if they actually believe all women are terrible like their ex; it is a product of their own bias, and it is the framework of their own internal perception of reality and what they consider to be the truth. No difference if we're talking about any type of belief system.

That is why your argument is flawed. There is nothing factual or objective about what you're trying to define as being factual or objective. We're talking about opinions.

And your criticism is rooted in how certain opinions are contradicting your understanding of the facts, and how you personally consider that to be irrational or ridiculous. And I will remind you, this is an expression of your own bias.



I never said anyone had to think or react a certain way. The context of my replies is presenting examples of actions that people have had and what reasons people might react the same way in a similar situation. At no point have I mandated anyone actually having to act or react the way in any certain way.



Yeah, because I was being facetious to your ridiculous attack, which you still seem to be projecting here. If I say 'fans act a certain way' it's not because they are expected to, but rather a point that there is precedence.

i think you're wasting your time engaging here, Adamas has been this exact same way since this thread began, he has failed to comprehend even basic reasoning as to why this project failed from the get go, and it's been made abundantly clear over thousands of posts he is incapable of ratifying the differences between what is fact, what is opinion, and what is a mix of the two, as i sated earlier to another poster, his defence of this show when the marketing campaign first started getting into full swing was that because nobody had seen anything how could 'we' possibly call it bad or expect it to fail, and ignored any sort of precedence that dictated opinion at that time which later after the show released proved to be accurate and correct.

even if you could jump through every single hoop he puts up and move through every single set of moving goalposts he erects, you still wouldn't get through, even if you satisfied every single demand it still wouldn't be enough.